The One Who Radiates Queer Joy

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam: 00:00:58

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced, and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface.

Sam: 00:01:39

Welcome, Nita. Thanks for joining me.

Nita: 00:01:42

Hi, Sam. Thank you so much for having me today.

Sam: 00:01:45

I'm really excited about this episode. Before we get started, where in the world are you?

Nita: 00:01:52

I am based in Burnaby, B.C. for those of you who knows the country, Canada. I'm located near Vancouver, which is in the west coast, Pacific side of the country.

Sam: 00:02:06

Lovely. Is that, like, a really snowy part of Canada?

Nita: 00:02:11

That's the other side of the country.

Sam: 00:02:12

Right.

Nita: 00:02:14

There's this ongoing joke that we're like the. The not so Canada child in the country because we. We snowed. But then snow here doesn't really last that long, if ever.

And people can use umbrella all year long because, like in this. In the. In the summer, people use the umbrella to shield them from the sun, and in the winter, people use umbrella to shield them from the snow. Right.

Sam: 00:02:45

One extreme to another. Yeah, that sounds like Australian weather all year round is just like one extreme to another. So I can relate to that.

Okay, so I start with one very big, broad, vague question which allows you to start wherever you feel like you would like to, which is, where does your story start?

Nita: 00:03:10

My queerness story actually just start, like, right when I was, like, around 30, like, early 30s.

So I personally identify as someone who, you know, coming out later in life, because as someone who grew up in Indonesia, a country which is pretty adjacent to where you're from. Yeah.

Sam: 00:03:32

Much, much closer than Canada.

Nita: 00:03:34

I know, I know. A part of me actually feels a little jelly that you're way closer to my home country.

I think I always looked at women differently, and this is something that I only realized, like, in hindsight, because back then, growing up in a very collectivistic, traditional and conservative country, I, you know, I was brought up thinking or like adopting and absorbing all of these, like, cis heteronormative patriarchy, patriarchal kind of like perspective.

So I never knew that it was in the realm of possibility that, hey, like, relationships is actually not just so called, quote unquote men and quote unquote women. There's like a variety of things like you do, you boo.

Sam: 00:04:28

Yeah. And so what was it like growing up in that conservative, traditional sort of space? Was it just nationally conservative? Was it faith conservative?

All of the above, I would say.

Nita: 00:04:43

All of the above.

I've been doing way more self exploration and personal healing journey actually ever since I live abroad because I left Indonesia as soon as I finished high school and I live in Malaysia for a few years and before moving to Canada in my early 20s.

And I've been reflecting a lot on how I grew up and how it really impacted the way I used to live because there is such, like, there's such an emphasis on having to like, fit in and having to be a certain way. Like, women are supposed to be like this and men are supposed to be like that. Men are like the provider and women are like, you know, like the.

The feminine side. But then growing up, once again, I was often told that I am too much of this or too little of that.

Like, I've always been seen, I guess, as someone who is overly strong minded, overly assertive, and like, lots of qualities that should belong to men. So people think that I'm intimidating, I'm too strong, I'm too masculine.

Where like, in the journey of building my own solo practice right now, I think I put in so much of that masculine energy to my advantage because I am a go getter. I.

I have a very robust personality and I'm like, I know what I want and I go for what I want in life, which is like, traditionally very masculine energy. But I'm like, good.

Could we just like, have this whole yin and yang and this whole balance, you know, of like, masculine and feminine, regardless of your gender, regardless of the genitals? Like, it doesn't define us as a. In.

Sam: 00:06:30

Yeah, absolutely. And I think traditionally, particularly, I mean, broadly, those qualities are deemed masculine.

But I think that is amplified in religious spaces because not only are they masculine qualities, they're almost anti women qualities in terms of women are taught in the church to be humble and meek and pure and mild and sweet. And I mean, I had a devotional trying to teach me how to become a Proverbs 31 woman. Right.

So like, it's not just that they were masculine qualities, it's just that they were also not just qualities that we shouldn't have, but we should actively not seek as well, because that's just not who we were supposed to be.

Nita: 00:07:23

Oh, definitely. Yes. I think growing up, one of the themes that I thought about a lot of the time is was I normal? Am I normal? Am I okay?

You know, because I was called a witch, I was called a, you know, like just because I say, I say my mind kind of thing. Whereas like people pleasing to the max is quite the culture, like the whole saving face.

And I'm not here to actually like bash the culture of my origin. I having come to terms with where I came from and my own personal healing journey has really taught me actually the beauty of assimilation.

There's so much beauty in the individualistic country or like culture, and there's beauty in collectivistic culture because if you take like the whole doing things your way to the extreme, you have no consideration for the other people. It, it hurts other people.

But also if you, if you kind of like sacrifice yourself for the betterment of society, it's like, yes, we can be martyr in one way or another, but we can't be martyr in every single aspect of our life.

Sam: 00:08:45

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, that martyr complex is such a big, like, that's a whole thing is like that sort of martyr complex in terms of the home, the, the family that you were raised in. What flavor of religion were, were you taught growing up?

Nita: 00:09:06

I think the religion that I was taught growing up was just like, be a good person.

So I think like to a certain extent I had an okay enough starting point in terms of the way I relate to religion because there is such a blend in my family. Where my dad was, is a Buddhist and my mom is a Catholic. And I've seen diversity in religion.

And I think my dad always said that it is actually not your religion who defines you, but how you show up in the world. And I think I used to be a little angry or upset at this because I was like, oh, well, like.

But religion taught you so many good things, like shouldn't you be good then if you're religious though, Growing up in school, then I actually went to Catholic school all my life.

And I remember pretty distinctly right now, like, all throughout my school time, actually, like all the way from like grade one to high school, being surrounded by, like, Catholics who call and profess themselves as Catholic. And I know some of the tenets of Catholicism. The whole teaching about God is love, be charitable to your neighbor.

And I've seen so many backstabbing and talking behind your back, which is like the exact opposite from what your religion is actually a lot promoting. So it created such a huge turmoil actually in my head.

Like, I thought this is a good standard, but even you subscribing to the good standard does not necessarily change your behavior, does not necessarily change. Like, you're so good on the, like the talk part, but where is your action, you know?

Sam: 00:10:49

Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of the.

The idea that if you are only doing morally good or kind or compassionate things because your religion tells you to do so, then we've got an issue.

Nita: 00:11:05

Right.

Sam: 00:11:05

If that's the only reason. And. And I find that that's what happens when the actions are not lining up with the belief system is there is like a disconnect.

And I mean, broadly an irony, but also like a disc to that. Was it confusing for you growing up having, you know, dad being a Buddhist and Mum being a Catholic? Because they're pretty different.

Nita: 00:11:32

Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 00:11:34

You know, broad strokes, Buddhism and Catholicism are pretty different.

Nita: 00:11:38

Yeah, yeah. I think, like, the theme of me growing up, up until, like, I. I hit the number 30 in my age, was. Was a whole lot of confusion.

I felt like I was always grappling for some sort of like, standards or something. Like a pole, you know, like a beacon of hope, a beacon of light of some sort.

And I think that's why I also, at some point I practiced Catholicism as well, because I felt like, hey, like, I finally found like a standard for myself, like something to subscribe to, something to go back to up until that point where I realized that, hey, like, I am probably not as good as they think I am.

Sam: 00:12:26

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what was it about Catholicism at the time that you were drawn to over what your dad was telling you about Buddhism at the time?

Nita: 00:12:38

I think I was someone who was really believe and like, signs, and I was really looking, I think, like, I was really looking for the truth. And for a week I was actually just praying to this, like some sort of like, woo, woo, God in the universe, if I.

And that was actually the month where I was like church hopping as well. Like to Evangelical Pentecostal and a few other denominations. And the next week was my roster to go to the Catholic Church.

So I was just like praying if I am meant to go to be a Catholic, like, give me a sign. And I actually forgot now because it's like almost 15 plus years ago though, something happened that kind of like confirmed my intention for a sign.

And that's why I kind of like started going to the Catholic Church regularly because I thought that's where I found a sense of belonging is where like you, you always know to a certain extent, like what you know of today. And I thought that was a sense of belonging for me.

Little did I know that was just fitting in because I think I was trying so hard to like, say, say the right thing, be a good girl, be a good person. And now I really like, oh, wow. Like I thought I was a good person, but it was not my good.

It was good in a way that I be backwards according to what I've seen in the environment, what I've seen people are doing. And I don't say things that would ruffle feathers or like, I, I try to keep things to myself kind of thing.

So, like, yeah, I think growing up, up to that point, like, I was filled with lots of chaos and confusion actually, like on the inside, even though on the outside I think I, I, I, I look pretty well put together.

Sam: 00:14:40

Yeah. Okay.

I mean, like that, that theme of belonging comes up in, in nearly every episode that I record, which is that, like, what, what draws us to church spaces, what keeps us in church spaces, perhaps at times longer than we should be there?

Nita: 00:15:04

Oh, yeah.

Sam: 00:15:05

Is that sense of belonging and wanting to be a part of something. Yeah, it's such a huge, I mean, I think as humans we are hardwired for connection anyway.

But that communal sense of belonging that churches, I'm going to use a really particular word here, that's probably going to grind some people's gears, but that sense of belonging and community that churches manufacture, because in a lot of churches it is manufactured there, you know, it's, it's like instant connection and instant community and instant belonging and instant love. And I'm assuming at that time you were probably like a teenager, young adult.

Nita: 00:15:53

Yeah, I was like a teenager. I started becoming like, going to church when I was like around 18, up until when I was like 30.

So like, actually at quite a significant, like, period of my life because that's like, pretty developmentally. As another therapist, you know, like, it's pretty significant for someone's development, actually.

Sam: 00:16:12

Absolutely. That's like the part of your life where you are forming your identity. Like, who do I want to be in the world? What type of person do I want to be?

Who do I want to associate with? Like, and being a part of a church during that period of time is like, what purpose?

Like, it's a bigger question of like, what purpose am I serving whilst I'm on earth. And so it's all of these like huge existential questions that like no 18 year old should have to be trying to work out.

But we are because, like, we are people who want to feel like there is a purpose and seeking, you know, some sort of like identity creation. At that time, what was your time at the Catholic Church like?

Nita: 00:17:09

I would say for the most part it was good for what it was.

I think like, the me today really cringes whenever I look back and remember, like, oh, wow, like I used to bend over backwards to that degree actually. Because right now, actually, like after not going to church, I've been posting pretty openly in my Facebook.

Like yesterday I actually posted with the caption, you know, like, what, what, what?

You know, some people feel okay seeing women or like people with breast and vagina wearing like baggy pants or like something that is considered masculine. But then why does it ruffle some feathers when they see someone with a penis?

Supposedly with a penis, or masculine looking dress with like, you know, nail polish and hair color and like, you know, like lip gloss and everything. Like why? Why? You know, like why, you know, And I wouldn't have said that if I went to church. I think, like, my time I think was good for what it was.

So like, there are things that definitely I grieved.

But then I think had I not experienced that, I also won't be able to actually relate to some of my clients who've experienced religious trauma to this degree.

The kind of outrage that I feel, the kind of like understanding and deeper empathy that I can offer to them, it's second to none because like, it's been really surprising to some people actually when they're like, oh, I thought you're gonna like instruct me whether to go to church or not. And I'm like, no, it's not my job actually to make you come out or not. It's not my job to make you go to church or not.

I'm here with you every step of the way and I understand how hard it is for you to actually have to deal with that turmoil. Yeah, I know it firsthand.

Sam: 00:19:04

Yeah, I think it's that nuance that going like, I like loving and leaving church, essentially, like, that sort of idea creates nuance. That.

And that nuance can make some people feel really uncomfortable because I don't talk about my whole church experience in a negative way, light, or in a negative capacity. And despite the fact that there was like, immense amounts of spiritual abuse and harm that occurred, the.

The nuance to understand that not everything is all good or all bad is. Is really tricky for people to understand.

And also that nuance allows us also, as therapists to go into those sessions and allow and give permission for our clients to also hold the same nuance and to not feel like to box their experience or box what all of those shoulds and expectations into a certain category. But actually, like, let's just look at the smorgasbord, and if you want to leave it as a smorgasbord, great, let's do that. That's also okay.

But it's the nuance to actually, like, be able to hold what seem on the surface as opposing feelings or thoughts about an experience. But actually that's just human complexity. Right. Because nothing is ever all good or all bad. And so it's.

It sounds like your time in the Catholic Church served the need that you had at the time.

Nita: 00:20:44

I was gonna say, interesting that. I feel like we're not just twinning colors today, but we're twinning frequency. Because in my head, as you're, like, responding, I'm like, oh, yeah.

Like, definitely. It's not something that I regret actually at all, because it provided me fuel for my journey. Like, it helped me at the time.

It speak to me and nurture me for where I was in that moment of time. And had I not passed by that point in my life, I won't be where I'm at today either. So, like, I can't resent that or I don't resent that actually.

Sam: 00:21:19

Absolutely.

And I think for some of the people that I have spoken to also, and for my own story that, like, church saved my life and has saved the lives of countless people.

And so that is never something that would be looked at negatively because there are some people who are still Earthside who, if it wasn't for the role that church played at that time, would literally not be here. And so that is always something to be thankful for.

But it doesn't mean that we can't call out the bullshit and harm and all of the other stuff as well. We can do both things. Was your was coming to the conclusion and the awareness around your queerness Was that what led you out of the church?

Or was it something. Okay, yeah.

Nita: 00:22:16

Heck yeah. I think it was almost like someone who's been constipated for so long and finally I should have given a bit. Oh, my gosh.

Sam: 00:22:27

No, I love this. I'm like, this is. I hear so many analogies. This is by far one of the best analogies. Continue.

Nita: 00:22:37

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

Yeah, it's like someone who's been constipated for so long and finally they can let it go, you know, because there were actually like signs along the way, though. I try to push it down.

And this is like a theme, a recurring theme that I've heard from your podcast as well as my work with clients and, you know, the temperature on the ground when I talk to other people with similar experience. Like, more often than not, us claiming our queerness is nothing new.

It's not like we woke up, you know, like we sleep tonight and woke up tomorrow with this self revelation that we're not assist and hetero as we thought we were. Like, that seed of realization actually has always been there.

Sam: 00:23:26

Yeah.

Nita: 00:23:26

Though I did my very utmost best work to like, try to mute it, try to push it to the side, try to like, sweep it under the rug or trying to like, look the other way. Like basically trying to deny its existence. Up until a certain point when I was like, you know what? This is actually real.

So you have the choice of either you push it down way more though. Up to what level do you push it down or do you just give it space? It's not that you have to proclaim your queerness to the world tomorrow, though.

Can you at least just dialogue with this? You know, so, yeah, I chose to dialogue with, with that thing and here I am.

Sam: 00:24:16

I mean, I'm go. I'm going to add a layer to, to the, the constipation analogy, which is.

I did a bonus episode with Kit Morgan, who is a trans therapist in the US and they work predominantly with transgender, non conforming and intersex clients also who have experienced religious trauma.

And, and they were very particular about the fact that what they've noticed in their clients is particularly for those who have had to suppress either consciously or unconsciously, their gender, their sexuality or anything like that, is that the result is gut issues. Right. So, like, because if we are keep.

If we keep literally pushing down, whether we aware we are doing it or not, the body is going to like express that in some way. Right. So I'm curious what that. Because I obviously know what it was like for me.

But I'm curious what that day to day denial, masking whatever language you want to use suppression looked like for you for that 15 years.

Nita: 00:25:32

It looked like doing my like I don't think I had gut issues or like bodily problem actually. So it did not necessarily impact me physically, my health.

I mean though on the inside I think there's always confusion because I always tried my best to, to you know, like find a guy, you know, finding a guy.

Sam: 00:26:01

Didn't we all? I mean and I'm bisexual and I still tried really freaking hard and it just was not happening.

Nita: 00:26:08

Yeah, I was actually like at some point because like a couple of my ex boyfriends were actually like the hottest guys. At least according to other people as well. Oh my gosh. These guys are like, if you can bag them, you're the yo. You know.

So like, like, you know that kind of a rank. And I don't know why, like whenever we made out and stuff like, you know, the spark was just not there.

And I used to think that there was something wrong, like seriously wrong, capital wrong with me, like sexually. So yeah, like I think I used to really struggle with the whole like am I normal?

Sam: 00:26:47

Yeah.

Nita: 00:26:48

What is normal to start with, you know?

Sam: 00:26:51

Yeah.

And I think that that correlation is so important for people to understand that it's not just like a, a casual not bringing that to, you know, the conscious area that like maybe, maybe I'm not attracted to these people because like maybe I'm just not attracted to them. But it is, it got, it jumps from that to there's something wrong with me, like something fundamentally broken and wrong with who I am that I'm not.

And, and I mean like the church does a really good job at teaching us that anyway because that's kind of like the core tenants is that you are like really like fundamentally sinful and wrong. And like you, you suck really bad. And so we take that and we just amplify that. When it comes to. If I'm not attracted to this person.

I've had few people say like I just thought I was really good at purity culture, like because I wasn't attracted to, to the guys like all of my other friends were. But actually like I wasn't, I wasn't just really good at Purity culture is just really, really gay. And that's not allowed obviously.

And it's not, it's not just not allowed. It's not presented as a viable option sometimes it's not presented as an option at all. And there is just like A complete lack of awareness.

And so, yeah, I, I see that so often that it's just that huge jump from like, maybe I'm not attracted to guys to like, I am fundamentally broken, like there's something wrong with me. And, and I think that that's a really important thing for people to realize that that jump happens very quickly. Yeah.

Nita: 00:28:42

Oh, yeah.

And that's where I'm like, for all the like, like self questioning, self disparaging, like, statements that I ask myself, it was actually like, it was so hard to actually listen to like, some preaching from the pulpit, especially those about like, union and marriages and you know, like, you, you know, sex is supposed to happen between men and women.

And then I thought, like, I thought there was something seriously wrong with me on the inside because I remember pretty, pretty vividly I used to work with someone who I found really, really attractive a women. And I fantasized actually about kissing her. And I was like, what's wrong with me? Oh my gosh.

And this is back in the day when I was still like a mission trip coordinator. So you could only imagine, you know, like, this job, this role, and I was someone who is pretty sought after for certain roles.

And this is my inner thought. So I used to think like, there is something fundamentally wrong and broken and am I dirty? Am I a perf? You know, like all of these things.

And even for me to say this like publicly right now is that I've come a long way from where I was because, like, there's no way I would even say this to a friend. But a podcast, you have an international listener, so everybody's knowing now.

Sam: 00:30:09

I'm curious, I'm.

I'm curious what it was like for you to start, you know, use the term, like dialoguing with that revelation or that, you know, not necessarily revelation, but the dialogue around, like, the conscious awareness of like, maybe this is me being queer. What that was like for you and how it impacted on your faith at the time.

Nita: 00:30:36

Oh, I think that was actually the beginning of my shift. It was the beginning of my departure.

It was very slow and steady departure because I think the question that I asked myself was like, okay, like, this is something that I've been thinking about. This is not my first, like, ever infatuation or crush or interest, whatever you call it, you know, like, towards someone of the same sex. Yeah. So. And.

And I, I was a little unhappy, I think, at myself. Confused. I think confusion is one word that I use a lot to describe, like, how I used to live.

So I think I Gave myself a couple of choices at the time. Okay. Do I continue living, like, a life that I bend over backwards and using someone else's standards of this?

Like, okay, I have to measure up to certain standards, right. In the church that are, like, certain tenets. And I've been questioning it, actually, all this while. I just never really dialogue my thoughts or.

It was actually during the pandemic where, like, we had so much time to ourselves, so I was like.

In the past, it was easier to distract myself with, like, oh, yeah, let me just busy myself with, like, taking more classes when I was still in the uni, or let me host more people, you know, for dinner. So I don't have much time and space to think about it. But then during the pandemic, the only thing we had. What's time?

Sam: 00:32:10

Yeah.

Nita: 00:32:13

So I think I made that conscious choice, like, okay, like, time. I have the time now, so. Okay, come here.

Let me look at you face to face and actually deal with this discomfort, because this is the same discomfort that I've shelved away ever since. I was probably 15.

Like, I think in high school, I used to, you know, look at women a certain way or, like, differently than I look at guys, but I wanted to fit in so bad, so I was just like, oh, yeah, like, she's just cute. She's a cute girl, you know?

Sam: 00:32:47

Yeah. What did that dialogue look like? What was that process like, after such a long time of essentially, like.

I'm picturing, like, the imagery of, like, imagine if you had had, like, a little, like, an actual person or someone, like, following you around for 15 years, and you were just, like, ignored them and, like, consciously, like, push them aside. What was it like to actually finally come face to face with that and actually dialogue with that part of you?

Nita: 00:33:18

It felt petrifying, actually, at first.

Sam: 00:33:21

Yeah.

Nita: 00:33:22

There was so much discomfort. And because at the time I was still affiliated with the church to a certain degree, this decision actually cost. It was.

I had confusion before the now. It's like, confusion magnified. It was, you know, like.

I think I walked towards a point where there was this juncture where I realized then, okay, queerness. It's this CIS hetero life is that I've been living at that. That region of the world, and I was not necessarily happy.

So is this the time to explore this part of the world? Yes, Though it was extremely petrified because I was so filled with, like, lots of shame initially.

And considering who I considered myself at the time, there was lots of, like, fear of, like, loss as well, because Then I knew moving forward, this is not a lifestyle or choices or preferences that are confirmed or verified by the church, which was an organization that I was affiliated with at the time.

So it was almost like extremely, like devastating in so many ways to actually have to choose between me, myself and I, or quote unquote, my sense of belonging, you know, like the social life. Because then I'm like, okay, like, should I choose this life then I actually need to almost rebuild myself from the ground up.

Because a lot of my friends at the time were like church friends. Though, as we all know. I think seasons, living in a four season country taught me a lot.

And I think a lot, you know, like, about philosophy of life all through season. Summer after summer, there comes the fall. After the fall is winter.

But winter will not be here before, you know, like the, the leaves will be, you know, like the trees will shed its leaves. And I think the same like snake will shed its skin, you know.

So I feel like at the time it was a very slow and gradual shedding of my skin, my old skin, so that I can discover like the best, better, greatest side of me. And I feel like I thrive where I'm at.

And this is so weird that I notice the kind of quality of relationships that I've had before and after the embracing. My queerness is actually different. I feel like I'm living my best life and I can't care less what you think right now.

Like, if you happen to be on the other side of the door, I'm like, it's fine, you do, you boo and I'm fine with your way of life, but just don't come to my farm. Like if, if you want to ruffle my feathers, like the door is right there, you know, like, just go, please just go. I'm not interested.

Sam: 00:36:52

Yeah, I'm curious how long it took you to get to that point, because I know that it doesn't happen very. It's. That's not an overnight process, right?

Nita: 00:37:02

Oh no.

Sam: 00:37:03

Like how long did it take you to get to that point where you were like, actually if that's what you think you believe, that's fine, but you don't get a choice to just bombard.

Nita: 00:37:16

Me with that for me personally. And I know that different. Everyone has their own speed and pace and cadence as well. Like for me it took roughly like three years.

So I'm in my fourth year right now, living openly as well. And this is like, even the whole embracing was a bit of steps because like in my first year I actually had a Girlfriend at the time.

And I, like people in my inner circle, knew that and was actually really surprised that, you know, like, I am. I'm one though all of them actually, in unison, was saying that the people who are supposed to stick around will stick around.

And this is the whole concept of, like, I. I've heard your other episode about the concept of chosen family. And I think, like, yeah, like, these people are my chosen family in Canada here.

And this. I think I, though at the time, initially, I was like, okay, like, I felt more comfortable, like, with the whole identity part.

Like, oh, yeah, fine, I'm queer. It took a while to actually really go public because even in the beginning of me practicing, I just said that I work with queer people, people.

But I never said that, and I only said that I am queer on my third year, last year, and now I am in a few podcasts, including this one, proclaiming that I'm queer. And I actually don't have any control about who get to listen to your podcast.

My hope is just someone out there, if they're listening to the whole episode, if there is, like, any thrill red in my story that they resonate with that, you know, it can be a jolt of, like, inspiration for that.

Sam: 00:39:06

Yeah, I love that. I mean, my, like, my inspiration, I guess, for this podcast was the saying, to be seen is to be understood.

And I think so much of healing from religious trauma is, yes, working with a therapist, but also in understanding that you are not alone in this and that you are not the only person who has experienced this and that there is joy on the other side of this. And so I love that.

I'm gonna, like, do a little preamble before I ask you this question, which is that I think there is this assumption for a lot of people that coming out is this really beautiful, like, amazing, like, streamers and sunshine and rainbows and. And for some, that is the case. And that's really beautiful. But actually, coming out can come with. Coming out can cost you. Right?

And so, like, I'm wondering what. What you had to lose and what. What. Yeah, what coming out cost you in terms of your faith and your church and, you know, friends and family.

Nita: 00:40:25

Family. Family not there yet. I mean, I don't think people from my hometown or my extended family would listen to your podcast, so I think I'm pretty.

I dodged the bullet there. And my. The. The only person in my family who doesn't know about this yet is actually my dad. And.

And I have been wanting to tell him actually about this, though the last Time I was home this past January, he was so unhappy with me, like having a hair color and tattoos. So like, okay. And he said he made that really, really, really clear.

So I'm like, okay, if you're that unhappy with like external appearance, I can't necessarily imagine it bode well with him.

Am though the cost for me was actually lots of church friends and I would actually just say like friends, quote unquote, because like the now me will not call themselves friends because like, we just happen to, you know, hang out a lot, spend time a lot in the same vicinity, same gathering, just because we have a unifying reason, AKA religion.

Though on a very personal level, I don't feel like we had that much in common because whatever we talk about during church gathering was always really surfacey level. And of course even like submitting prayer requests. And I don't really go. People don't necessarily go into details either.

Like they just say, oh yeah, like grace for this decision need to make, like really hard decision about work and la la la. So I was really disappointed though, like in the beginning. And that was, I think, the, the choice that me.

And I'm pretty sure a lot of other people who've left the church need to make the choice. Right? Do I. Do I hold on to something that no longer fit, like, or do I actually find my freedom elsewhere?

And I decided to actually like, good thing church was not my only life. So I would say that they were like 50 of my connections.

Sam: 00:42:50

Yeah.

Nita: 00:42:50

So it was like losing 50 of my connections. And the, the most upsetting part in me revisiting this, this greed is that when I stopped going to church, nobody checked in on me. And I don't.

I'm pretty expressive. And when I said nobody, I mean it literally though, like, nobody checked in on me. And that just.

And I only realized it actually like months afterwards because, like, oh, wow. Like, I just realized that I haven't gone to church for like months at ends and nobody actually like phoned me.

And it actually made me realize that, hey, like. Or a question more. So was there like a degree of suffering to make it worthwhile for people to check in on you?

Because we used to go to the hospitals or like the old folks home to actually check in on people, people who got hospitalized, you know, like, we pray for them, we call them, we reach out to their families. But then like, if.

If a devout Catholic, someone who's been in your midst week after week after week, and people actually, like, said that I was one of the few youths that Were like, very committed to church and it was like, super impressive. I was like, okay, does my absence thought, you know, like, you don't feel that.

Sam: 00:44:20

Yeah.

Nita: 00:44:21

Surprising. I was like, ah, so much actually, for all of my dedication to a certain establishment that at the end of the day it's like, what's next?

Sam: 00:44:38

Yeah, the silence is any. If the silence feels anything but silence, I think that the silence feels deafening almost. It's like a weight of like, do they just not care? Do.

Am I deemed a lost cause? Like, there's so many questions that come from nothing. No contact, no words, no messages, anything.

And so, you know, that is in itself such a painful part of exiting a church system is the silence. Because silence sounds lovely, but silence is overwhelming when you want anything but that. Yeah, it's what was.

I'm curious whether there was a difference for you in terms of exiting church and then how that interrelated to whether you left your faith as well. Like, were they synonymous or were they separate?

Nita: 00:45:49

I would say not as synonymous because I guess, like, I'm still a part of a life group right now with a group of people. It's still a Christian life group, so it's in a more like, welcoming community. And all of them are aware that I'm queer.

Though I haven't really gone to church because I think church reminds me of like, conformity and standards and the herd mentality and fitting in. And I feel like I am nothing. Was it I'm nothing but fitting in or like, no, I'm. I'm nothing about fitting in, basically.

So, like, like, that's the only thing. Like, I'm everything but fitting in right now. So, like, no, like, I.

I would go against my own words because the tenet of my work with clients is actually, like, you get to define life in your own terms.

Sam: 00:46:48

Yeah.

Nita: 00:46:48

So as someone who believes in the values of walking my talk, like, I need to walk my talk first before I walk other. Walk with other people to actually define life in their own terms. Yeah.

Sam: 00:47:01

Yeah. And I love asking people that question because.

Or something in that realm, because I think for a long time I also, I thought that my faith had to be synonymous with being at church. And I think it's for a lot of people, there is. There is no ability to do one or the other. Like, and. And there is.

There are people who sit in church every day with no faith, and there are people who sit every day outside of church with lots of faith. And so it's not. It's not a one, one choice.

And So I love asking people that question because what it often highlights is actually church and faith are not interwoven all the time. They can be separate.

Nita: 00:47:45

Yeah, it is.

And that's where like I think back then, because in Catholicism, and you're probably aware about this, haha, me being presumptuous is that if you miss mass one week, then you have to go to confession before receiving the Eucharist. But then right now I'm like, I feel like I still very much am a spiritual person though I do not necessarily want to be defined by certain religions.

Like I've been doing more like astrology reading and some Buddhism just like good teaching about the tenets of how to be a good human being.

Sam: 00:48:21

Yeah, yeah, I love that.

I, I find that for, for some people finding their own version of spirituality and faith or whatever language you want to call it, is actually driven by your values. And, and, and I mean, how, how, I think, how can that be? How can that be anything but wonderful? Right?

It's interesting that you're now looking into Buddhism.

I mean the irony with like, maybe lead the conversation with dad one day about like, hey, like really into Buddhism, also queer, but really into Buddhism, just like sandwich it in there. I, I think has it, what has it been like for you to be able to find your own sense of spirituality on your own terms?

Nita: 00:49:14

It's been exhilarating because I even like astrology. I think I am a fairly respectful person. Like in terms of like actually you have your own beliefs, then hold on to that.

And it's been interesting to actually be in someone's circle who is also really into astrology and just being introduced to the whole, like harnessing the power of energy, healing, you know, those kinds of things. The woo woo side of things.

It's been really liberating to actually getting to know this whole like realm of energy thing because it helps put like my life into a different kind of perspective.

Just to give an example, I have been like, I've been meeting with someone like once a year to do like an astrology reading, like where I provide my birth year and time and they are able to dish out like a solar chart. So basically it's like a description of how my life is going to be based on the constellation of stars in relation to where I'm at right now.

Are you actually, are you familiar with astrology?

Sam: 00:50:34

A little bit. A little bit. I know a little bit about what you're talking about, but I'm certainly not an expert.

Nita: 00:50:39

Yeah, okay. Oh, me neither. I'm not an expert actually that's what I did right before our meeting.

I just met with a person actually yesterday and we did a reading on my life and it's been really interesting to actually have a few points confirmed because like oh yeah, I've been having intention to do ABC and then that's what the, the thingy was also like saying like oh yeah, like your next year it's going to be impacted on this and that level and just be careful on this and that.

And you would channel most of your energy and this and that which for me actually it's learning to one, trust the process and two, go with the rhythm. Like just let things like water, water flows, you know, you don't force water, you can't tell water to stop. You can't tell water to walk more.

If you add more water it would walk more, you know. But like it's just like yeah, like I feel like my life is just more like water and I feel it's actually really liberating in so many ways to.

Because like we live in a very capitalistic and this whole like should laden world where like oh, you should be like this, your worth is defined by that. And I'm like, I don't subscribe to that.

Sam: 00:52:00

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is freedom in being curious about different spaces and not having to make a hard line decision. Right.

Like there is liberation and freedom in being able to say I don't know, sounds cool, let's look at it at the end of it might hate it, might love it might still have no freaking idea about it.

But let's look at it and explore it and, and to be able to do that without the pressure of having to, to pick a side, to, to pick what we want and for that to then have to define every aspect of our life. Right.

Like I can be into crystals one day and forget about them for the next four weeks and then suddenly be like, oh yeah, I really like crystals again. Right.

And it not have to be such a structured, rigid set of guidelines for us to follow, but we actually get to explore based on what we want and what we're interested in and what our values align with and all of those things. And I think that there is so much freedom that comes from that.

Nita: 00:53:17

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And actually like as you were echoing just now, I was reminded of like your earlier question about like coming to terms with my queerness.

And I think what really helped was actually like yeah, this whole water like approach to life, like in terms of trusting the process and it's okay not to know. I mean, it's okay to know ABC today, and it's okay that I don't know the whole Alphabet, you know, tomorrow.

Because some way or another, something might pop up that is like a revelation, but just to trust the process, because this. There's this whole mentality in the world where you have to have things figured out. You know, if.

If you're queer, if you profess that you're queer, then, like, oh, like, people would challenge you. Like, what makes you think that you're queer? What was the sign? When did you first.

Sam: 00:54:17

Yeah, yeah. Like, you're. Prove it.

Nita: 00:54:20

Yeah. And I'm like, even I got asked. So you said that you're queer. So what are you? And I'm like, what do you mean by what am I?

Well, there's like a whole Alphabet soup in LGBTQI. 2s. Blah, blah, blah. So what are you? And I'm like, I'm queer in there.

Sam: 00:54:40

There's a Q in there.

Nita: 00:54:42

Yeah, I'm cute. Is that good enough? You know? Oh, yeah. But then, like, what are you Then still repeating the question.

I'm like, I'm queer, and I don't feel like defining what my label is. And I am actually pretty neutral with labels.

Like, some people find it helpful to actually name their experience, but for some others, it's too restrictive.

Sam: 00:55:04

Absolutely. And. And I think labels. Labels can either free us or they can restrict us. And. And I think I. For me, the.

Even just like, the label it of Christian had an element of restriction for me. And so. But I think for those who are still, like, knee deep in church and in faith, that label of Christian is their element of safety.

And so I think, you know, it's. The conversation around labels is so nuanced and complex because there's so many layers to even just the concept of labeling.

That's a very big can of worms that we could open. But I love asking this question, which is often it feels like there are terms that the church owns, right? There are like.

And we feel like we can't use those terms ourselves. And so two of the biggest things.

And I notice this when I asked the question, which is two terms that, to me are associated with the church are joy and peace. And so what brings you joy and peace now outside of the church?

Because, Boiler, to everybody listening, the church does not own joy, and the church does not own peace.

Nita: 00:56:45

Heck, yes. Oh, my gosh. We need to, like, talk about this more from a puppet of freedom. You know what brings me joy? I think I am a Quality time person.

And I realize that as I, as I accrue age, you know, like, the older I get, for a lack of a better word, like, I think the more I really appreciate having genuine connections. And what I mean is that it's, it's a dynamic, it's a connection. It's relationships that I feel seen and heard in the dynamic.

I feel accepted in all parts of. I am. And even if they happen to disagree with some of my life choices, then we can be adults.

Like, you can tell me that you disagree, but don't you dare impose your belief on me. You know, like, to me it's actually childish, it is selfish, and it's very one way because it's almost assuming that your way is the best way.

And I learned that the, the relationships that satisfy me the most or like, I find it incredibly rewarding is those that, I mean, of course you need to have like, good enough safety in the connection, actually call them out when they are about to do stupid shit. You know, like, just to remind them, like, hey, are you sure this is where you're going?

Sam: 00:58:19

Yeah, yeah, I love that. I, I. What came to mind as you were talking about it is the moral superiority that some people think that they have.

And it's that pendulum thinking of, I'm right, you're wrong, and I have the right to tell you that you're wrong. And it's like, actually, you don't, so shut up. Yeah, in really nice ways.

And sometimes we don't do it in really nice ways because maybe they're not being all that nice to us. So. But it's, enforcing those boundaries is, is not, is not easy.

So I also want to stress for people listening that, you know, we say those things casually because we've done the work to get to the point where we can enforce those boundaries.

But if you are at the beginning of your journey in exploring this, those boundaries are going to be really freaking hard and at some point might not even be conceivable to put into place, but if you stick with it, you can get there to that point. We're enforcing those boundaries so that you can experience the joy in the way that is authentic for you.

Which is a nice little segue into what I love to finish these episodes on, which is, what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction? They've just exited church. Maybe they've just realized, holy shit, maybe I'm queer.

Maybe, like, I don't align with the gender that I was assigned at birth. Their world has just like crumbled. The foundation under their feet is crumbling. What word advice thought would you say to them?

Nita: 01:00:13

I think I would definitely say that you are where you are supposed to be and it is okay to take your time. It is okay to not have. Have to figure it out or have everything figured out at your fingertip right in that moment.

And actually, I guess it's actually that morph into like three points here.

It's just be curious because we have enough judgments from the world out there about like who we are supposed to be and how we are supposed to get there, how we are supposed to live our life, how we're supposed. Supposed to show up. And I think some people, you know, our life is what we made out of this.

Some people are, you know, it is actually much safer for them to cocoon up and choose to live a life according to someone else's standards. Yeah. And that's okay.

But if you've been doing that and it doesn't bode well for you, then it's okay to take your time to actually, like, you don't even like if you want to come out. Like, it's okay to define what coming out even mean for you, like how you're coming out and who are you coming out to.

And that's actually one thing that I always stress with every single teens clients who are figuring out their identity. Like, hey, it's totally okay. And. And like definitely find your people.

Yeah, if you are knee deep in church, then try to find, try to start finding community outside of church. Like try finding people you vibe with.

And one last thing that I would love to add is actually like, for some of us, culture in our place of origin does definitely play a huge factor.

So for those of you listening in and if you happen to be, you know, you come from certain places like mine, like in Indonesia, like whenever I am in Indonesia, actually, I told my family that I feel like the queer side of me somewhat wilted slightly or just like, you know, like retreat, because I don't feel like I could necessarily let. The environment is not conducive for it to thrive or to flourish. So it just lays dormant and. And that's okay. Like, just take your time.

Sam: 01:02:51

Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's a really good point in that despite the fact that your sexuality, your gender, who you are at your core is beautiful and good, there are some spaces that don't create safety for those things.

And safety always comes first, particularly in spaces that might feel really unsafe and in some spaces, really unsafe physically and So I think, you know, that can circle back to another point that you said, which was around finding your people in that there are so many of us out there who have walked this path, who wants, want to and love walking the path with you.

There are online communities that if your literal existence, community in like, your demographic is not safe, there are spaces where you can find that elsewhere. And finding your community is, is such a key, a key aspect. So I love that. Thank you so much for joining me.

Nita: 01:04:01

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Sam: 01:04:03

It's been a wonderful conversation. I love your energy. I love the vibrancy. I love that you no longer fit the, you know, meek, mild, good Catholic girl because this one is way more fun.

So I love that I'm interviewing that one. And, and thank you also for the work that you do. Obviously, you know, therapist to therapist.

I love when and I know that people are creating space for people to explore this world and to explore religious trauma and spiritual abuse and all of that in a way that allows for nuance and complexity without feeling like they need to go from one box to another. So I love when I get to talk to people who are doing that all around the world. So thank you.

Nita: 01:04:52

Well, thanks for having me, Sam. It's. It's been good to actually have the space to, you know, share a slice of my life.

And I, I hope someone resonated with this story and if it can be something for you to munch on, you know, because I would say, like, one thing that surprised me the most in me telling my story is like, oh, wow. Like, I resonate with that. I resonate with that. So I'm like, oh, wow.

Like, I'm happy because like, like the first time, you know, like, it's vulnerable actually, like, you know, like telling our story, though. I feel like theories, theories tell you facts, but story connects. And I think I'm, as someone who is like, very community minded.

I'm all about connection.

Sam: 01:05:40

I love that. Thanks, Nita.

Sam: 01:05:46

Thanks for tuning in to this episode.

Sam: 01:05:48

Of beyond the Surface.

Sam: 01:05:50

I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories.

Stay connected with us on social media.

Sam: 01:06:04

For updates and more content.

Sam: 01:06:06

I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on.

Sam: 01:06:10

Your journey, you're not alone.

Sam: 01:06:12

Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward.

Sam: 01:06:18

Take care.