Understanding Spiritual Coercive Control with Bethany Jantzi

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to this special bonus episode of beyond the Surface.

In these episodes, we take a break from the personal stories, and I get to chat with experts on all things related to religious trauma, cults, and deconstruction. These conversations are foundational and educational.

They provide deeper insights and understanding into the complexities of the experiences we hear in the stories.

Whether you're just beginning your journey, this is the first episode you're listening to, or maybe you're looking to expand your knowledge in general. These episodes are packed with valuable information that will help you navigate wherever you are. I'm your host, Sam, and this is beyond the Surface. Welcome, Bethany. Thanks for joining me.

Bethany: 00:01:46

Thanks so much for having me, Sam.

Sam: 00:01:49

Before we kick straight in, I thought I would just let you introduce yourself. Who are you and where in the world are you?

Bethany: 00:01:57

Yeah, so my name is Bethany and I live just outside of Toronto, Canada. And, yeah, this is actually my first international podcast. I'm kind of excited about that.

It's been mostly Canadians and Americans, so we'll see how it goes with Sam, but I think it will be great. But. Yeah, so my background is that I have a master of science in the psychology of coercive control. I'm the only program of its kind in the world.

Out of s. In the United Kingdom. Yeah. So I was really excited to do this program and really develop a more kind of specialized niche out of it.

And, yeah, that's kind of what leads me to here today.

Sam: 00:02:44

Yeah. I am grateful to be your first international podcast. I feel like, for the US And. And Canadians, I feel like Australia feels really international.

Like, we were sort of saying that the time zone is just, like, not super friendly for either of us most of the time.

Bethany: 00:03:05

Yeah.

Sam: 00:03:05

But I am happy to be your first international podcast, so. Yay.

Bethany: 00:03:12

Yes. And you're in the future, which is just.

Sam: 00:03:15

Yes.

Bethany: 00:03:15

A bit like brain bending to think of. So it's interesting.

Sam: 00:03:19

I did. I did have somebody, I think they're in the U.S. ask, what's it like in the future? And I was like, it doesn't really get much better.

It's still a bit of a shit show, to be fair. So. But yeah, okay. So coercive control, obviously, like, we will get to defining some of those terms and what that is in context of.

I probably have some listeners going, this is like a storytelling podcast around religious trauma and cults and deconstruction. What's that got to do with it? And we will absolutely get to that. But I'm curious to find out what actually drew you to this work.

Bethany: 00:04:03

Yeah.

So I have spent my entire life in the evangelical church, and I grew up in a very conservative home, and I was homeschooled and then also went to, like, a private Christian school, and my dad was a pastor for, like, many of my formative years. I ended up going to Bible college and surprise, surprise, marrying someone who was a pastoral ministry student.

So then beginning of our marriage, he was pastoring. And yeah, I started to.

I think once my husband stopped pastoring to go back to school, I realized that it gave me some, like, psychological safety and some kind of cognitive distance from being able to feel kind of like I was living in a fishbowl. And, like, people were really looking to me to be strong in my faith.

And I feel like that space really allowed me to sort of hold up everything that I believed and held to and really hold it up to the light and kind of re examine if these were things that I wanted to continue to cling to or if there were some things that it was time for me to deconstruct or to think about whether or not that was really, like, a driving value for me.

And I think too, just seeing how religion and, like, faith spaces in a lot of ways can kind of roll downhill into environments that really tilt towards control.

I've just found that very disheartening and something that really stood out to me and so really wanting to study what does it look like to have, like, spiritual safety and to have healthy faith communities that are free from coercion and abuse and manipulation and threats. Yeah. So going through this program has really just given me sort of a higher level academic framework to be kind of evaluate all of this through.

Sam: 00:06:11

And.

Bethany: 00:06:12

Yeah, so that's kind of a bit of my backstory and what leads to where I am right now.

Sam: 00:06:17

Yeah.

Bethany: 00:06:17

Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:18

And so I guess what might be helpful to sort of like, kickstart this conversation is the. I think a couple of the terms that we will obviously keep throwing around is spiritual abuse and coercive control.

And so I'm wondering whether we can just start with some broad strokes definitions of what those two things are.

Bethany: 00:06:41

Yeah, yeah.

So spiritual abuse is kind of like the definition that I use is basically any kind of spiritual or religious texts, practices, disciplines or positions that are used in a way that applies pressure to gain control over another person and to influence their thoughts, behaviors, feelings, actions.

So yeah, the center of abuse, we often have a power imbalance and the use of control to change, like how someone is behaving, how they show up in the world. So then, yeah, the spiritual abuse is the misuse of. Yeah, these spiritual doctrines, practices, belief to control or manipulate someone.

Sam: 00:07:30

Yeah, that is a really good definition. I've heard a lot of definitions, but that's a really good one.

Bethany: 00:07:37

Yeah, and there's like, like such amazing research being done in this field and like a really great, I think, sort of broadening out these definitions and kind of just really laying down some really fascinating, compelling conceptualizations around this in terms of like religious harm and religious trauma, all of these things. So yeah, I, I really appreciate the position that like this field is in at this moment.

Like I feel like 10 years ago we didn't really have a lot of these concepts that we have now. And I'm just, yeah, really grateful for that.

Sam: 00:08:20

Yeah, I think I've heard a few people mention, and I would agree, which is that I feel like we are in the space currently with spiritual abuse and religious trauma, where we were 10 or 15 years ago with domestic violence and family violence in terms of like research and studies and just like having a much greater understanding of what that is, the impact, the breadth of what that is as well, that it's much bigger and much wider than what I think a lot of people think, which is, I guess when they think of spiritual abuse, it's often, you know, people based abuse. When we know that it's much bigger, much wider than that.

I mean if we think of coercive control, obviously and like I know that that's a form of spiritual abuse, but I'm wondering if you can define what coercive control is.

Bethany: 00:09:14

Yeah, and the thing like that you just touched on too with spiritual abuse is that it really does involve other kinds of abuse. Like I talk about like theological abuse and even like psychological and emotional abuse. Like there's like so much intersection between them.

So what I like about coercive control is that it just provides a bit more nuance and depth in understanding these dynamics. So the definition, it Depends kind of whose definition you go with.

But, but in broad strokes, I would say coercive control is any kind of intentional pattern of behavior that is used to try and gain control over another person. But we usually break it down into the main, like high level tactics that we see.

So these are tactics like isolation, intimidation, threats, humiliation, and sometimes violence.

But the interesting thing is that there can often be coercive situations or coercive controllers who actually don't use violence because threats are like a really effective way to maintain control. Or even if they use violence one time and then the rest of the time they just leverage off of that fear using those threats.

So, like really sophisticated abusers know that they don't need to really go to violence. That that psychological control can really be exerted over someone without using physical violence.

And that makes it a lot harder for the victim to detect and as well as outsiders. So it's like a bit of a higher level, more sophisticated way to abuse and control someone.

But yeah, course of control broadly defined as any pattern of intentional behavior used to exert control over another person.

Sam: 00:11:11

Yeah, and I'm, I'm sort of like trying to.

Because sometimes in these episodes I try to ask questions thinking of like, what the listeners are thinking because obviously, you know, this is something that I have understanding in as well. But I'm suspecting that there are people going, how does coercive control differ to manipulation?

Bethany: 00:11:35

Yeah, so coercive control, we talk about it like it's an umbrella. So it's like the overarching behavior that we describe.

And then under that umbrella you could put manipulation and you could put psychological abuse or like gaslighting or deception. But yeah, but course of control is the broader umbrella that all of these tactics stack up under.

Sam: 00:12:01

Okay. I think that's really helpful for people to sort of like have that imagery in mind.

In terms of coercive control, we often hear it talked about in terms of relationships and domestic and family violence.

And so I often, when I'm talking about it in the context of churches or cults, I will, you know, chuck the word spiritual at the front of it because often that may it means it's more defined for people. And so what does coercive control look like in a spiritual sense or in within the context of churches or cult communities?

Bethany: 00:12:38

Yeah, so coercive control is definitely something that is often present in these groups that we would define as cults.

Or sometimes I like to use the word like high control or high demand because I find that like a lot of people have A very like knee jerk reaction to the word cult that can kind of make it harder for them to late or identify if they're experiencing part of it.

So yeah, like a high demand or a high control environment will show itself up in these tactics that I described under the umbrella of coercive control. So yeah, you'll have isolation and it could even be like within a group setting.

Like an example of this that I see a lot is when the pastor has kind of set up their church as being like kind of the only good church or the true church or like that this church has like the true corner on how we are to like interpret this scripture. And so there's a very like us versus them framing.

And so they like kind of encourage their congregants to like, don't go to other churches or other conferences or like read other books, like only listen to like my sermons. So then it leads to a level of isolation within that system.

And then yeah, we'll see threats and that those threats can be like within the community in terms of pressuring people to toe the line in order to continue their membership in that community. Or it can be like theological, theological threats in terms of like using hell or even like we'll talk about humiliation as part of coercive control.

And there are some churches that I see and even like theologies that are very heavy handed in terms of the types of doctrines that tend to foster a sense of shame in people. So like really emphasizing our brokenness and how we're garbage and how our heart is selfish and wicked above all else.

Yeah, can really develop a lot of shame in people. And this idea of like, even like we deserve death. So, and Jesus paid the price.

But basically anything if you're still alive, like you shouldn't be complaining because you deserve death. So just really making us feel like we should just be grateful that we are still able to be a part of this faith community. So.

But it uses threats, it uses humiliation, it uses isolation, it uses intimidation, it uses all of these things.

So it's really interesting that coercive control can really be deployed in these religious and faith spaces, like in an institutional setting, but then also in like one on one interpersonal relationships as well. Sorry, that was a really long answer to your question.

Sam: 00:15:49

No, I love it.

I mean the, the gratefulness is like something that really stands out to me because I find that, that, I mean aside from the, the lack of violence that is prevalent sometimes and the, the lack of the need for violence for coercive control to be effective, Is that dichotomy of finding it really difficult to be able to notice and recognize coercive control?

Because we should be grateful for doing this like, you know, and it's, it's just that idea that because we're doing this to advance the kingdom of God or like that very like overt religious language that yeah, we, this is just the price we have to pay for, for being a believer. And, and that yeah, we should be grateful that we should be thankful that God has given us this, this experience in this situation.

And, and I find that that makes it incredibly difficult for people to be able to actually even just notice that something is not quite right.

Bethany: 00:17:08

Yeah, yeah. 100.

And this like reminds me of one of the themes that came up when I was doing the research that I did for my masters and that was that there was a consistent deprioritization of the here and now in our physical and emotional well being in favor of the spiritual benefits and like eternity and pleasing God that really caused people to downplay or think that they really didn't have a right to complain about harm that they were experiencing in the hair and now because you know, the Lord uses suffering and like it's really not about this. Here and now is so temporary and fleeting and it's really not the big picture.

So yeah, using that kind of language in a way to really send the message that like you should suck it up because God works all things together for the good of those who love him.

And so like it's not about the here and now, which can be a very like trivializing and invalidating message to receive for someone who is like experiencing harm or suffering.

Sam: 00:18:22

Yeah, it's, it's the, I mean it's rooted I feel like as well in that martyr complex that is like really reinforced.

But as you sort of talk, I'm hearing like two statements that I guess would be, you know, those thought stopping cliches around like this too shall pass or the best is yet to come. And like all of those sorts of things that are used as a way to just like, just don't think about it. Like it's just.

And also that like all of this is temporary and, and I find, you know, when I talk about the differing aspects of religious trauma to other types of trauma, often I find that what is needed to be highlighted is that eternal aspect.

And so I suspect that it's the same concept in terms of spiritual coercive control is that you aren't just dealing with the present day, you are dealing with what people See as you know, their eternal either salvation or eternal damnation. And that weaponized greatly.

Bethany: 00:19:31

Yeah, yeah, totally. And that's actually like kind of what I go to. If someone is a Christian and they want to understand coercion in like a super simplified way.

And I would say coercion is kind of like and or else like a reading between the lines of like do this or else. And that's what I see. I think of in terms of like what you just said in terms of hell, in terms of being punished or. Yeah. Not pleasing God.

There can be an inherent or else peace in there which can be very coercive in that like subtle form of pressure really can cause us to act in certain ways that we wouldn't act if that piece wasn't there. So yeah, you really touched on a like a big component of coercive control.

Sam: 00:20:25

Yeah.

And I, I mean, I guess it's, you know, I guess differentiating between like aspects of coercion and I guess full on intentional coercive control are also two different things because you know, as you talk then about like the or else component of coercion, all I can think about is 8 year olds who are presented with the gospel message going, well you can choose Jesus or you can be separated from your family and you know, everybody that you love and so you know their moments of coercion but might not be described as coercive control.

Bethany: 00:21:06

Right, yeah, totally.

And I think too like there's like we can say, I can say something that I 100% believe, like for example, God knows best, but other people can deploy that in a very like thought stopping way where it's like period, end of conversation. There's nothing else to be had about it. God's ways are higher than our ways.

So if you're suffering, if you're experiencing harm, yeah, God knows best. That's really all there is to it. But I, I do believe that like there is wisdom in God's plans for us. So yeah, I think too is interesting.

I feel like something, a kind of, kind of confusion that I feel like people will have when they hear me speak is that some people will make the assumption that like I am no longer a Christian or that I have left the faith. And it's interesting to me because I feel like that reflects more on what they believe being a Christian is.

And that means that you don't criticize your faith, you don't criticize the way that pastors or clergy handle theology and scripture. But I'm pushing for us to have safer Spaces and for us to have a healthy spirituality that doesn't undermine our personhood and our autonomy. Me so.

But it's interesting when I hear people assume that I, Yeah. Have left the church and I'm like, no, I'm still a Christian.

But it's interesting what that reveals to me about what your mindset is of what you think a Christian is. Yeah, yeah. And that's such a significant thing when you feel like you're. It's not safe to have doubts or to express criticisms.

Like that right there tells me that there isn't much psychological safety within that space.

Sam: 00:23:05

Yeah.

Bethany: 00:23:05

Which is definitely like a red flag for high control.

Sam: 00:23:09

Yeah, yeah. It's when it.

People don't feel like faith and critical thought can go in the same conversation when actually a lot of people are able to experience a deeper sense of spirituality and a deeper sense of faith by using their brain and by using critical thinking and, and being able to have conversations around safety and abuse and trauma and that those things actually can deep a sense of spirituality and faith for a lot of people, I mean inside, like with all of that in mind in terms of like, often I find that people who work or talk in.

In this space who still are people of faith, often it's being able to separate the system from the faith as well, like the church from the belief system. And so I'm curious in what ways you've seen coerc control being used like God being weaponized as a, a form of coercive control.

Because like, what I have in my mind is Dr.

Hillary McBride's quote that spiritual trauma is being present whenever we've been told that we're broken from the start and you know, is like handing you an inner critic and telling you that it's the voice of God and like all of those sorts of things. And so how have you seen God being weaponized as a form of coercive control?

Bethany: 00:24:41

Yeah, I think the way that it really came up a lot like in the research that I did, which was looking at complementarian theology or headship theology, which kind of boils down to this idea that within marriage men are to be the leader and that women as wives, their main role is to submit to their husband and to follow him while he leads.

And what I found was that men and husbands in these cases really stepped into God's authority and kind of co opted like a level of authority and power in that when their husband spoke like God was speaking to the wife and to resist the husband or to not submit to the husband was to rebel against God.

And so you can see that, like, power imbalance that's there and how if there's any kind of abuse or coercion in that, it's not just from your partner, but in a way it's from God. And so that was just like, really heartbreaking to see that over and over again with the data that I looked at. But yeah, that was a big one.

This idea that, like, if God is male, then male is God. So, like sort of an unchallenged, even unacknowledged, automatic power and authority that we give to men that they carry into their role as husbands.

Husbands were all human beings. And there, yeah, is going to be brokenness in us.

And but yeah, when you attribute it that you're speaking on behalf of God or you have like a closer relationship to God, there's so much damage that can be done when you use that kind of power and weaponize that.

Sam: 00:26:40

Yeah, I. That God is man. A man is God, I feel like, is just like the basis of so much harm that is done in.

In any sort of like, high control or like, religious community where we default the mouthpiece of God to another human being. And yeah, that's.

So the way that that's poet is, I think, really interesting for people to perhaps consider the way that they've seen that in their own communities as well.

Bethany: 00:27:20

Yeah.

Sam: 00:27:21

I'm wondering whether we can, like, shift gears into what is the impact of this type of control and spiritual abuse on people.

Bethany: 00:27:33

Yeah, so we see a lot of, like, psychological harm that happens to people.

So like, when people are living in a state where they are experiencing kind of like ongoing threats at them or even like a lot of judgment, criticism, and shame.

Because sometimes in these spaces, there's the sense that we are to always be striving, striving, striving and trying to become like, more righteous and purify ourselves. And so that can lend itself really well to this idea that you are never good enough, which is like a really unhealthy place to kind of start at.

And when we're in that place, what it does is that it actually makes us more dependent on that person who is like the source of that ideology or that belief system. Because it's kind of like they're saying, like, you are worth. Listen, you're full of shame.

But don't worry, like, I actually have like a system for you, a belief system that if you just like, follow it, it can, like, ease those feelings and like, give you those answers. So if the person who identifies the problem also is like, I have a solution. Then it can just foster this dependence and reliance on them.

So that can be kind of just create this like cycle.

But then being in a place of like experiencing fear and threats, it can lead to more black and white thinking because it's like really distressing for our nervous system. So then we tend to gravitate more to formulas because it seems simple and it seems very black and white.

And if we can cling to that, it gives us a sense of sort of like artificial safety. Like there's a system here, I'll just follow it to a table and I'll be okay. Yeah.

So it, it can really flatten our thinking and then also foster a lot of dependence on that source. So psychologically that is like a very limiting place to be. That really undercuts our own autonomy.

That's like a massive impact that I see like in these spaces in terms of like spiritual, coercive control.

Sam: 00:29:54

Yeah.

And I mean, I'm, I'm sort of thinking about this obviously through the lens of being a trauma therapist, which is that, you know, we know that once nervous system has been responding to the same stimulus over and over and over again, that it will choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven. So it's that cycle.

Like you say that, you know, we want structure, we want safety, we want stability, which, you know, those things in themselves are not inherently bad, but when we are getting those from really unhealthy and harmful and abusive places, abuse is safe. Right. It's like that direct correlation that starts.

Bethany: 00:30:41

Yeah.

Sam: 00:30:43

In the way that, you know, your sense of self and your nervous system responds to the situations.

Bethany: 00:30:50

Yeah. And like in that way too, I really see, like, it makes us very susceptible to anyone who is like, I have the answer.

I have this like three step formula. And then the other thing that it really makes us vulnerable to is, is feeling like conformity is the answer.

Because that feels so safe to see ourselves reflected and to feel like we fit in and everyone looks the same. It can make us feel a bit safer. And so. Yeah, it's just so dangerous.

Any kind of belief system, person or space that chips away at our autonomy is going to produce these kinds of. Yeah. Psychological consequences for people.

Sam: 00:31:36

Yeah. What is the.

Or what have you seen as the, the spiritual fallout and the spiritual impact on people who have been in coercive, controlling environments?

Bethany: 00:31:49

Yeah, it's so tough because there, when you have a person who is in an abusive or controlling group or an abusive or controlling relationship, they need to like extricate themselves from that person or from that group.

But when that group or person is part of their faith community and like their spiritual practice, then it's not just that person they have to extricate themselves from. It's also from that God. So we just see, like, like, just really devastating crumbling of, like, that person's belief system.

And it can be really hard for them to, like, separate and tease out these two things, like that person and that belief from that God. And so it will often force victims into this place where it feels like they have to walk away from everything.

Sam: 00:32:46

Yeah.

Bethany: 00:32:47

Which is really heartbreaking because faith can be such a pro social and, like, supportive factor for people who are struggling and experiencing harm and oppression. So then I just see people being in these spaces who are experiencing spiritual abuse. Just. Yeah.

The ripple effects of that harm, I feel like it is so hard to recover from. Yeah. And it can, like, yeah, people. It feels. I feel like for people, it kind of feels like the whole rug has been pulled out from under them.

They have nothing to stand on. Like, everything is just, like, falling through their fingers. And like, for your mental health, like, that is a really terrifying place to be in.

And then also, if within that group you were taught that the outside world wasn't safe or was dangerous, you can't trust people. That is a terrifying place to exist in.

Sam: 00:33:45

Yeah.

Bethany: 00:33:46

Yeah. So my heart just, like, really goes out to victims who experience, like, spiritual abuse.

Because I really think that it's not just like, you were hurt in a church.

Like, there's a real trauma that's there that is just the same as the other ways that we understand trauma and, like, the impacts that it has on our body.

Sam: 00:34:06

Yeah, absolutely.

Bethany: 00:34:08

Yeah.

Sam: 00:34:09

And I think it's. I mean, I. I feel like I'm about to throw a question at you that I didn't prepare you for. So feel free to. I tend to do this, but I. I mean, my.

My brain is going in that, like, in some communities, this type of behavior is so normalized and almost even encouraged.

And so I'm wondering, like, what you have seen in terms of those who are victims of coercive control that then become coercive controlling of other people. And like, the ripple effect, I guess, when this behavior is normalized, it's sort of like a.

Bethany: 00:34:52

You have to exist in the system and you no longer want to be the person at the bottom who's, like, having that harm done.

So it might feel better if at least you can be the person who has that power who is, like, perpetrating It And I think there also is like a often like a psychological drive to like renegotiate these past experiences to gain some sense of mast over it. And that can sometimes lend itself to, yeah, like a victim actually becoming a perpetrator.

And it's hard to especially so for people who have from birth who were born into these systems, they do not have like a. What we call like a pre cult identity or personality. So like the only operating system that they have is this one that they were also a victim in.

So then if they're seeking power and seeking stability, then they might find themselves being a perpetrator because they don't know that there's another world outside of this system. Yeah, very. Yeah, kind of a grim outlook for that.

I want to say that there's hope and yeah, there's hope and there's community and it's okay to wrestle and struggle. That's like totally normal.

Sam: 00:36:13

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, and I think it's, I guess I, I sort of gravitate to that sort of conversation around victim, perpetrator because I think one of the biggest things that a lot of us grapple who have, you know, deconstructed or you know, perhaps even deconverted, who look back on our fund like our fundamental selves and go like, oh, that was like really damaging that I used to do. And, and so I think it's an important thing to note that you can be, you can have perpetuated harm and you can have also been a victim of harm.

And those two things can exist side by side. And just because you perpetuated harm doesn't mean that you no longer have to or get to process that you also were a victim of harm and it's not.

Yeah, I mean stepping outside of that space means that actually we get to step out of the binary that it's one or the other and it's much more complex and nuanced than that. So. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Bethany: 00:37:23

Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think too like, at least within Christianity, I feel like there's a lot of ways that we can harm other people.

Like kind of weaponizing our beliefs, trying to control people, influence people unethically.

But like we really do believe that we are just trying to love them, are trying to like hold them accountable, trying to like urge them on towards righteousness and be part of that sanctification process.

So I think it's so like interesting what you're talking about is that like this idea that you can have good intentions and honestly think that you are just like trying to care the best way that you know how for the people around you and still cause harm.

Sam: 00:38:15

Yeah, yeah. And I think that, I mean, often I will talk about the fact that a lot of spiritual abuse is disguised as spiritual love. Right.

They're often synonymous with one another because there is that intention for a good majority of the people who are perpetuating harm that they do think that they are genuinely doing good and what they're called to do and what their purpose is in the world. And so it is so tricky to be able to wreck, recognize, well then what is spiritual abuse?

Because it's often got this mask of, well, we're doing this because we love you and because. And. And so that's really tricky. And so I'm wondering if we can then have a bit of a chat about what can people look out for? Like, what are the.

I hate the term red flags, but like, what are the red flags that people can look out for is to, you know, is this happening in the community that I'm in? Is this happening to me?

Bethany: 00:39:18

Yeah, yeah. So the kind of things that we are looking for in like a group setting would be. So we're looking at, I guess, like.

So I really like the BITE model, which is Steve Hassan's model, because it's like a super just easy to understand acronym. But yeah, bite. So B stands for behavior control, I stands for information control, T stands for thought control, and E stands for emotional control.

So in like high control and high demand groups, you're going to see control showing up in each one of those domains. So like behavior control, we're looking for things that really change sort of the kind of fundamental behaviors that people have in a way that we.

We talk about actually how we can see identity disturbances in people that are victims of cults and high control groups. And so we see that show up in their behaviors and that their behaviors are indicative that there has been a disturbance in their identity.

Like, there's been a. Of very significant shift in their understanding of who they are and who they are meant to be and how that's reflected in their behavior.

And then we also see for information, like kind of what I was talking about before, where a church or pastor will kind of really paint the outside world as being dangerous and evil. And this church or this pastor has like a true faithful understanding of scripture. And that really leads to like a level of.

Of information control and isolation. And then we also see that in these high control groups, they operate as a closed system.

So high control groups will want to position Themselves as the authority on everything.

So not just like scripture, but like often we see these are the churches that run their own schools that like talk about parenting a lot, even like food in some ways. Like, like their spiritual practices can like even move into like what kind of meats are allowed or flowers, these kinds of things.

But also like us really cultivating isolation in a sense of, they may offer counseling, but it's biblical counseling and it's all people within their church. So I often say like, one thing to really look out for in terms of this information control and emotional control too is if there's like isolation.

If they vilify outside counselors, registered counselors, people that are outside of their church.

When I think about how if we want to support people's spiritual growth and their mental well being and to have them thrive, then we wouldn't slam the door shut on a path that can lead out to a professional who is trained to hold space for people and to help people feel safe and to give people coping skills and strategies. We would see the benefit in that because we see goodness and value outside of our group.

Whereas high control groups, because they are closed system, they will keep everything very much in house. So that's something I always tell people to look out for.

And then yeah, thought control, we can see how that works in terms of scripture and even things like having a really heavy emphasis on confession that can lead to a, almost a level of like scrupulosity and like constant anxiety where this person is always thinking like, oh, I should go and like talk to my small group leader and like repent about this and like confess about this. And it's framed in terms of like accountability.

And also we see confession and similar practices in other cults that operate as a really easy way to keep, keep track of people, to surveil them.

And so in some cases where things have been really unhealthy, I see like small groups being used in that way where people think that they're in a safe setting and they'll talk about how like they struggled with a sermon that gets reported back to the pastor, the pastor calls that person into their office and they immediately realize that their small group was actually an extension of like surveillance and like monitoring or even with like, like counseling, like biblical counselors that are in their church.

In the kind of group that I studied for, like the data that I was analyzing, it was like a common practice that if they called that person to repent and they didn't repent, then it was totally normal to go to the Pastor, which you're a therapist, you understand that like a pivotal foundational part of counseling is confidentiality and that you are hold people's disclosures and you hold their experiences with such a sacred trust that you wouldn't flippantly just go up the ladder with that information.

So yeah, these are all things that signal to me that there's a level of like high control that's being exerted over people that is really shutting down all these different domains that we see in like the bite model.

Sam: 00:44:45

Yeah, I one before I go into my next question, for the record, for anybody listening, Biblical counseling is not counseling. They're two different things. Pastoral counseling is not therapy.

They're two different things just to like, you know, they both serve their purpose, but they are not the same thing. And so I think it's really important for people to know that and to understand that.

But I think as you're talking I'm sort of thinking it's also I guess important to note here that when we talk about red flags or warning signs that there are external things which are a lot of what you've just talked about.

But perhaps as you mentioned, the scrupulosity and the anxiety, what some of those internal red flags or those internal warning signs are that maybe something is just not, not quite right here. Yeah. What are some of those?

Bethany: 00:45:44

Yeah, so I like to talk about FOG as my acronym, but I add like a silent C on the end. So it's really like F, G, C. But the F stands for fear and the O stands for obligation. The G stands for guilt and the C stands for confusion.

So I find for people that are victims of coercive control or high control, psychological, psychologically and emotionally, they experience these emotions being very dominant like within their internal world. So like this fear.

Yeah, so when we talk about scrupulosity, but this fear of like always trying to adapt or mold the behavior to avoid like retaliation or like punishment or displeasing God or their partner or their pastor. And then obligation is such a like common thread. The sense of if they didn't have that obligation, they would make different choices.

So there's kind of like a level of or else like a coercion under there and then. Yeah, the guilt is there.

When we see like yeah, these churches that really heavy handedly handle these scriptures that tend to cause like a sense of shame and guilt in people. So we'll see that.

And then the confusion is a big one too because is if someone is struggling with, if they can have trust in their own perception and their own evaluation of what's real and what's not, they won't have confusion. But if someone is experiencing, like, psychological abuse, they will have that confusion.

So I often say, if you have, like, prolonged or chronic confusion that you can't seem to find your way out of of, that could be a sign that there is psychological abuse and control that you're experiencing. So, yeah, I always say watch out for the fog, because fog is hard to see through, and it's, like, weighty, and it settles in.

So, yeah, fear, obligation, guilt, and confusion.

Sam: 00:47:51

Yeah, I.

And so if people are recognizing that, like, they're listening to you talk and they're like, oh, crap, like, maybe, like, that's some of what I've experienced or I am experiencing. You know, we know when we talk about coercive control in domestic violence that distancing is.

Is not easy, and it's sometimes incredibly dangerous and. And unsafe.

And so if we talk, I guess, a little bit about if people are recognizing these aspects either internally or externally, what does safely distancing from that look like?

Bethany: 00:48:34

Yeah, so I would say, like, the first thing that can help provide some perspective is like, starting to keep, like, a diary or some kind of private document that kind of records these experiences, because the, like, nature of psychological abuse is that it just. Just twists your brain all up. And victims will be so used to creating their own justification and rationalization for what they're experiencing.

And so, like, having, like, a record that you can look back and reflect on can be really helpful. And then I would say start to try and see if you can push back a little bit on the isolation you're experiencing.

So for some people, I would say, like, a great first step is finding some kind of. Of, like, support group on Facebook.

Even, like, even in the virtual world can be, like, a safer way to just sort of test the waters and see, like, is it just me or, like, surprise, surprise, Are other people also experiencing these similar things? And it can, like, language can be such an empowering tool. So often we experience harm, and we just don't have the language to identify it.

So it's so hard to conceptualize.

And I'm sure, like, as a therapist, when you tell someone, oh, like, actually what you experienced was this, and you see this light bulb go on, and it's so empowering that they now have language to describe their experiences.

So, yeah, I would say keeping a record and then starting to look for small ways you can push back a little bit on that isolation and starting to see if you can outside of the group have. Have some kind of relationship that can help you plant and ground, like, in what is reality. Easier said than done.

But, yeah, those are the first kind of two steps that usually I recommend for people.

And even, like, going virtually to, like, an online group is even, like, a bit safer and less of a huge step than, like, talking in person to another person. But that would kind of be. The next step is to. But sometimes it can be really hard to find someone that you trust that, you know is safe.

Sam: 00:50:50

Safe.

Bethany: 00:50:50

And so I think, like, the Internet and Facebook can be amazing for, like, these virtual communities that people really support each other in.

Sam: 00:50:59

Yeah, yeah, I. I would absolutely agree.

In terms of the language, I think it can be a really defining moment for a lot of people in their own journeys to be able to put language to their experiences.

I mean, I know even for myself as a therapist who was having therapy around religious trauma, who, like, would never have used that terminology to describe what I had experienced.

And so to hear somebody that you've developed a relationship with that is a professional that you trust to use language like religious trauma or spiritual abuse or coercive control is such a validating experience that. Because obviously, we know, like, a core component of, like, you know, coercive controlling, gaslighting is the. The, like, am I going insane?

Like, am I crazy? Like, is this all in my head? Right. So to have somebody validate that is. Is, I think, yeah.

Such a defining part of somebody's healing and recovery from that process. But, yeah, I. I would also agree in terms of, like, online communities as being, like, a good, safe first step.

Bethany: 00:52:19

Like a baby step.

Sam: 00:52:20

Yes. Yeah. Because. And I.

And I think that language of, like, a baby step is really important because it's not necessarily going to feel like leaps and jumps, because that might. That might be too dangerous either externally with the people that you are around.

Bethany: 00:52:39

Yeah.

Sam: 00:52:39

But also it just might feel too dangerous as well. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, so in terms of. For people who might be. I'm sort of thinking about now the people who are. Who have friends, who.

Or family who might be in these environments. And so I'm wondering whether you can, like. And again, I'm throwing you a question I didn't prepare you for.

Bethany: 00:53:10

That's okay.

Sam: 00:53:11

This is just what I do. Bethany, as a podcast host. I'm sorry.

Which is, like, what would you say to those people as to, like, how can I help my loved ones who are in this circumstance? And I can see the harm that's happening. I can see all of these things. That you've just talked about happening. How do I help them?

Bethany: 00:53:32

Yeah, and it's so hard because I feel like if you're on the outside and you are worried or concerned about someone you love, it can really create a sense of urgency, which sometimes can cause you yourself to undermine that person's autonomy. And that's something that we really want to protect when we are helping people that are victims.

But it can feel so like you just want to run in there, grab them, and drag them out because it's not safe. But, yeah, it's not going to have a lasting impact on them if you do something drastic like that.

And then you switch in their mind to being labeled as someone that can't be trusted and isn't a safe person to open up about concerns that they might have about that group. So one thing you want to do is to try to maintain, like, very.

I always talk about unconditional positive regard, which is like a therapy kind of framework. But, yeah, that, like, you love this person and you know who they are.

So really trying to maintain a relationship based off of that in a way that you can provide little glimpses into that there's safety outside of that group and that the people outside are actually not out to get you. And it's not dangerous and scary and also like glimpses of joy and pleasure.

Because often that's a big thing that we don't see in these high control groups. But people kind of get. Get sort of, like, recalibrated to that.

But then when they're exposed to glimpses of joy and pleasure, they remember that life didn't always feel like this monotonous, constant trek up a mountain every day as part of their group or their ideology. So as a person on the outside, I feel like you have a. A really, like, unique opportunity to show people these glimpses.

So, yeah, you really want to maintain positive contact. And then another thing you can do is, like, kind of asking them questions about what they believe and what they're experiencing.

And, like, there's something in that group that is working for them, even if it's in a very maladaptive way. So what is that need being met?

And how can you try and meet that need in a healthy and safe way that can kind of loosen that group's grip on that person, like, over time?

So those are kind of some things that I would recommend is to try to fight back on the urge to just go in and, like, drag that person out of that group or relationship, which is way easier said than done.

Sam: 00:56:17

Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, on the flip side is also going to. To probably do more harm than good. Right.

You know, that sort of, like, Superman mentality, which is. Is kind of what, you know, is what got them into that situation as well, which is that we have all the answers. Like, we. We can save you. Right.

And so, yeah, it's trying not to. To be that on the outside as well. But that's a really. It's a tough.

I guess I just would like to reiterate as well that it's a tough space to be in, to be on the outside watching that and.

And for that to feel like a very arduous, slow process to try and be safety for someone as opposed to just showing them safety and trying to, like, exist as. Yeah. Exist as someone who is safe and maintaining that is really, really hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Yeah. So, okay, I.

In all of my normal episodes, I like to finish with, like, a message of encouragement or something like that for people who are. Who are deconstructing.

But I'm gonna flip the question slightly because obviously we've been talking about people who have been impacted by spiritual abuse or spiritual coercive control. And so I'm wondering whether you have. Because I feel like a little ways, this episode might be a little doom and gloom for a lot of people and.

And heavy as well. So, like, I'm wonder, like, a message of encouragement for people who have left around. You know, healing and recovery is also possible.

And so I'm wondering what you would say to that person who has left who has experienced this type of abuse.

Bethany: 00:58:21

Yeah, I think I would start off by saying that they are incredibly brave and courageous to have left. Like, that is huge passive.

And that I would encourage them that it takes a long time to uncover all the layers of harm that have been perpetuated and the ways that your identity has been twisted and distorted and, like, molded in a certain way. So I would just say that giving yourself grace is really important, but that you were right when you left.

Like, you knew that there was something out there, that life could be better, that it didn't have to be the way that it has been for you.

So to cling on to that hope and to know that it's going to be like, a long road, but that there's other people, there's whole communities out there that are ready to celebrate you and to walk beside you on this journey. But you were right. You deserve it. And there is something better outside of that. Yeah.

And that, like, every single person deserves to have A journey that is free of abuse and free from coercion, free from manipulation. And that is a really noble pursuit. Yeah. And you are so worthy of that. So. Yeah.

Sam: 00:59:54

Thanks Bethany, thank you for joining me on, you know, what is a very, you know, it's, it's like a heavy topic, but it's also like a necessary topic to talk about because it is happening much more commonly than what we, than what a lot of people are realizing and also is not just happening in cults and not just happening in high control groups.

Like it is happening in, you know, like, it's obviously happening in like mega churches and in evangelical and Pentecostal churches, but it can also happen in the little small church down the road as well. You know, they're not exempt.

And, and so I think being able to open the conversation so that a breadth of people can have an understanding of what this is, what it looks like, how to spot it, how to protect yourself from it is, is such a necessary and important conversation. So I appreciate your time and, and the work that you do as well. So.

Bethany: 01:01:01

Yeah, yeah, I'll just say too, like, I have like lots of free resources on my website and on my social media. People want to find me there. It's freefromcontrol Ca. That's my Instagram handle, but also my website. Yeah.

And I just want to thank you, Sam, for like having this space and for, yeah.

Giving of yourself to be able to provide these really valuable conversations for people to help them think and understand that it's like safe and normal to have doubts and questions and Yeah, I just think it's so valuable, these kinds of platforms. So I really appreciate it.

Sam: 01:01:46

Thank you. And I will link your website and social media and everything in the show notes.

And I think, you know, it's really great for people to be able to access free resources in this space. And so I love that it will be all in the show notes for people to be able to go to really quickly and easily. So yeah. Thank you. I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land, land. On which I live and work, the.

Gundagara land and people I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. Country, this land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control, or cult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week, I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced, and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface.