Episode 50

The One Who Went From Missionary Kid to Spiritual Nomad

Nancy reflects on her upbringing in conservative Christian circles, the challenges of being a missionary kid, and the struggles she faced in reconciling her sexuality with her spirituality. As she navigated these complexities, she discovered the importance of self-acceptance and the value of listening to one’s intuition. The discussion also touches on the impact of cultural narratives on personal identity and the transformative power of community support. Through her experiences, Nancy emphasises the need for compassion and understanding in the process of finding one’s authentic self, ultimately encouraging listeners to embrace their own journeys of integration and healing.

Who Is Nancy?

Nancy Shadlock is a missionary kid turned youth pastor turned spiritual director and Coming Out Coach. When Nancy finally discovered that she didn’t have to divorce her spirituality to embrace her sexuality she started creating the life she’s always dreamed of, but feared would never be possible.

Now as the Founder of Centered Consulting & Coaching and the Conscious Queer Collective and host of The Coming Out Chronicles podcast, she dedicates her time to helping people and organizations break free from metaphorical closets to bravely live the truth of how beautiful and whole they are.


Connect With Us

You can connect with Nancy via the following:


Transcript
Sam:

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people.

Sam:

I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Sam:

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

Sam:

I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country.

Sam:

This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam:

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.

Sam:

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives.

Sam:

Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Sam:

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

Sam:

This is beyond the Surface.

Sam:

Welcome, Nancy, thanks for joining me.

Nancy:

Awesome to be here.

Sam:

Now, let before we sort of like kick straight into it, where in the world are you?

Nancy:

I'm calling in from Calgary, Canada, which is also the traditional territories of the Blackfoot Confederacy, Sikhica, Kainai, Kani Tsutina, and the Nakota nations and the Metis Nation, Region 3.

Sam:

Lovely.

Nancy:

I'm happy to be a settler here and honored to be still welcomed, even though my ancestors did not do it very well.

Nancy:

But we have a beautiful neighbor, Brenda, across the street, that is teaching my kids how to smudge and all the wisdom from the ancestors.

Nancy:

So we're happy about that.

Sam:

Oh, that's so beautiful.

Sam:

What a lovely experience for your kids.

Sam:

How beautiful.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Now, I love to start with a very broad, very vague question, which is where does your story start?

Nancy:

That's nice.

Nancy:

My story as I know it, starts with Bill and Muriel, who were on a farm in Drum Huller, where the dinosaurs are from, and Margaret and Allan, who were on Saskatchewan lands and then they had kids who had me and I.

Nancy:

I'm.

Nancy:

I'm the ours from a yours mine and our story.

Nancy:

So my parents were each married before and had kids and then got divorced and came together and had me.

Nancy:

And so I'm kind of this glue that tries to hold my whole family together.

Nancy:

And I realized after a lot of therapy that I don't actually have to do that.

Nancy:

And when I stopped trying to do it so hard, I don't have to, and it actually goes much better.

Sam:

What flavor of religion were you raised in?

Nancy:

Another good one.

Nancy:

I was raised in Christian religion Alliance and Baptist and some CRC with Christian Reform.

Nancy:

Church is a Dutch tradition here in Canada.

Nancy:

And I was professional Christian growing up.

Nancy:

My.

Nancy:

My parents were missionaries in Kenya.

Sam:

Okay.

Nancy:

And then I.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Went on to be a youth pastor and get a undergrad in youth ministry and went on all the way to get a Master of Arts in spiritual formation.

Nancy:

Expanded my spirituality to see the value in all.

Nancy:

All traditions and see that the.

Nancy:

The root of any tradition, like, if you look at the mystics in any tradition, it comes to love.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

So I think that's what's the topic of any religion, if we really look at it.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Is that something that you learned as you got older and as you started to explore?

Sam:

Was that something that you grew up hearing?

Nancy:

Oh, no, no, no.

Nancy:

That was too scary to hear or look at or be allowed to look at.

Nancy:

It was definitely during my masters that my.

Nancy:

My box got exploded.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And my spirituality just was like, whoa.

Nancy:

And my parents were definitely worried about me when I was exploring all these things.

Nancy:

And, like, what.

Nancy:

The tree could have God in it.

Nancy:

What?

Nancy:

No, this is getting too far, Nancy.

Nancy:

Like, watch out.

Nancy:

So it's been.

Nancy:

It's been a journey.

Sam:

Yeah, I guess.

Sam:

You know, I hear, like, reformed theology, and I sort of think, you know, that's quite conservative in terms of, you know, theological beliefs and things like that.

Sam:

So what.

Sam:

What messages were you raised with about yourself and about the world around you?

Nancy:

About myself.

Nancy:

That I'm depraved, that I am bad and sinful, and I need Jesus to save me from that.

Nancy:

And about the world that, like, it's all bad out there, too.

Nancy:

And stay, you know, only marry a Christian, only be friends with Christians, only listen to Christian music.

Nancy:

No.

Nancy:

Secular music that very.

Nancy:

Like us versus them mentality.

Nancy:

And so much fear that governs so much of what we did and so much.

Nancy:

So many years now of unlearning that and seeing beauty in everything.

Nancy:

And that's a stretch for my family still.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Did the.

Sam:

The type of theology that you were raised with impact how you viewed God growing up?

Nancy:

Yes, but I was reflecting on this recently with my partner about.

Nancy:

In some ways, I really am grateful for my relationship, at least with Jesus growing up, because it really felt like this camaraderie, and it got me through a lot of things, like, you know, moving in junior high to Africa and not knowing anyone, starting fresh.

Nancy:

Being in a boarding school all by myself in grade seven and being like, so I had my homie Jesus with me all the time and like that constant love, I really embodied.

Nancy:

And she was saying like, I've never seen someone who's so self confident as you.

Nancy:

And she thought, I'll get to the bottom of it after I get to know you better and I'll see the cracks in it.

Nancy:

And she's like, there's cracks?

Nancy:

Yes, but it really is real that you really do have this love of yourself that is authentic.

Nancy:

And I was like, I think it's from Jesus actually.

Nancy:

And so I think that has been a gift of that heritage for me.

Nancy:

Thankfully, I didn't get so much of that like God in the sky judging you and, and things like that.

Nancy:

I got this, this very tangible, real relationship that I always feel like I'm surrounded by love.

Nancy:

Yeah, I love that.

Sam:

I'm.

Sam:

I mean, I'm curious how you were able to separate the, those two things.

Sam:

Growing up, particularly as like a young person.

Sam:

We often just abso, you know, the things that we are taught by our family and the people who are closest to us.

Sam:

How were you able to sort of separate the Jesus that you knew versus this sort of like very dominant masculine God that you were being taught?

Sam:

Oh, no, I, I love when people don't know.

Nancy:

Yeah, I'm like stumper.

Nancy:

Yeah, I don't.

Nancy:

Somehow early on I, I got this, this memo that it was like my relationship and I am so loved.

Nancy:

And I think there I'm, I'm looking at it now through my lens where, you know, I'm daily writing love letters to myself.

Nancy:

I can tell you more about that later from Ms.

Nancy:

Gilbert if you don't know about those.

Nancy:

They're amazing.

Nancy:

And so maybe I, I don't see all of the ways that I used to feel very condemned and wrong and guilty and shame filled because my family does have a big heritage of shame and like this motion of like yay is big and.

Nancy:

Okay, it's.

Nancy:

Yeah, it's still there.

Nancy:

But I, Yeah, I've been able to circumnavigate it somehow, which I'm grateful for.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

What was it like to be a missionary kid?

Nancy:

I loved it for the most part.

Nancy:

We would go to school for.

Nancy:

I went to Rift Valley Academy, if any of your listeners have heard of this place.

Nancy:

It's kind of the, one of the biggest missionary kid boarding schools in, in Africa.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And we would go to school for three months and then get a month off.

Nancy:

And so it was kind of this amazing.

Nancy:

Like you're there, you're with your friends at camp all day, every day, and then you go off and have this amazing adventure in the middle of nowhere where you get to drive a motorcycle around and like do cool things.

Nancy:

And so in some ways it was.

Nancy:

It was a really neat life.

Nancy:

But then in other ways it was also really weird because we were considered rich in Africa because we were white and we had everything we needed and saw so much poverty around.

Nancy:

But then when you go back to your home country, you're considered kind of a pauper and you have to go around and beg for money from churches and things.

Nancy:

So it was, it was weird.

Nancy:

Like, the only way I could communicate with my parents was through a CB radio.

Nancy:

So we'd have to be like, how's it going over?

Nancy:

Back and forth, and it was like a party line.

Nancy:

So anyone could listen in if you want, if they wanted to.

Nancy:

Your Sunday call with your parents.

Nancy:

And so it was like.

Nancy:

It was pretty crazy.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

I mean, I imagine that at the beginning that probably felt fun, but then it's probably not fun eventually because that it changes your connection with your parents quite significantly, I would expect.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

What was it?

Sam:

I mean, what ages were you when you were in Africa?

Nancy:

Grade 7 to 9.

Nancy:

Okay, so Junior high?

Nancy:

Yeah, yeah, just before secondary.

Sam:

Something that I often hear when talking to either ex missionaries or ex missionary kids is the transition coming back to the home, their home country can feel very disorienting.

Sam:

Do you remember what that was like for you?

Nancy:

Yeah, it was kind of stilted because we came back for year 10 and then supposed to go back for 11 and 12 to Kenya, but we didn't end up returning for those last two years for a bunch of different reasons.

Nancy:

And so I.

Nancy:

I got to go back to Kenya with my dad after year 10 from our summer in Canada.

Nancy:

And we went back and I got to say goodbye and I had this image that, like, it was the best place ever and I couldn't wait to get back there.

Nancy:

And then I went back to say goodbye and, you know, heard all the terrible things that were happening at the boarding school and the frustrations with the leaders and like, all the things.

Nancy:

I was like, okay, right, it is a different place.

Nancy:

And I still had a bit of that mentality though, because then we moved again and started fresh again at a new school for my last two years of high school.

Nancy:

And it was, it was just talking to one of my friends about that the other day because she and I have kept up all these years, and.

Nancy:

And she was like, yeah, you.

Nancy:

You were so weird.

Nancy:

And I showed up with, like, this, like, short, short, blonde, spiky hair, wore all these mismatched patterns and, like, an Africa jungle print shirt and like, all these different things and just, like, walked around and I kind of had this mentality of, I know I'm not going to fit in, because they were.

Nancy:

This is where it was the Christian Reformed Dutch High School.

Nancy:

So they were all tall, blonde, same, same, same.

Nancy:

And I'm quite short and was just like, no, I'm not gonna fit in here.

Nancy:

So I'm just gonna be myself and, you know, the counselor.

Nancy:

And you might challenge.

Nancy:

Is that really yourself or is that, like, an exaggeration?

Nancy:

The other side should be debate.

Nancy:

I just was like, I don't really care.

Nancy:

And she said that.

Nancy:

She was like, you didn't care whether we liked you or not, so then we liked you.

Nancy:

And I was like, nice.

Nancy:

But I definitely miss my family back home.

Nancy:

Yeah, my friends had become my family.

Sam:

Yeah, that's.

Sam:

I mean, like, change is difficult for most people, but that's a lot of change.

Sam:

During some very formative years.

Nancy:

I wrote a lot of songs.

Nancy:

I.

Nancy:

I play guitar and sing, and so I would, you know, write songs about missing my people over there.

Nancy:

And, yeah, I tried to go back, I think, in some ways, to relive what I felt like I had lost.

Nancy:

And so for my undergrad, I went back for my practicum and was a dorm room at the boarding school I'd went to and taught at the school.

Nancy:

And it.

Nancy:

It didn't work.

Nancy:

It just was salt in the wound because I.

Nancy:

I missed out on these amazing trips that they.

Nancy:

The seniors would go on to hike up Mount Kilimanjaro or get their scuba license at the ocean.

Nancy:

And I didn't get to go then, even as a staff on these trips.

Nancy:

I just had to get up early and see my girls off on these trips and just was like, oh, so sad.

Nancy:

So I don't recommend trying to, like, relive the childhood things you lost out on, because it's never as good.

Nancy:

Never really works.

Sam:

Never quite the same.

Sam:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam:

So, like, what was it like for you, sort of, you know, coming out of high school into adulthood?

Sam:

I often find that's when people often start to explore faith and spirituality and religion on their own terms, outside of, I guess, what their parents have perhaps taught them up until that point.

Sam:

And so what was that transition like for you?

Nancy:

Well, I ran off to Australia.

Sam:

We Love that.

Sam:

Everybody come and run to Australia.

Nancy:

Year:

Nancy:

It's got to be there for the Sydney Olympics.

Nancy:

And I went to Cape and Ray Bible School school in Mossvale.

Sam:

Oh, wow.

Nancy:

New South Wales.

Nancy:

And so I.

Nancy:

Which again, was a very conservative male dominated, like, to the extent that they had work days every Wednesday and girls would do the kitchen jobs and the vacuuming in the house, and the boys would do the outside fun jobs of mowing lawns and building and just like, come on.

Nancy:

So I really pushed against those rules because I grew up with a dad who was a builder, so I was always out doing that kind of thing and finally got to be allowed to do painting.

Sam:

All right, okay.

Nancy:

How did.

Sam:

How did the.

Sam:

How did the community and the school respond to that?

Sam:

Pushbacks?

Sam:

Like, what was that like for you?

Nancy:

The teachers did not like it at all, but the students were all like, yeah, we should all be pushing for this and time for change.

Nancy:

I think I've changed it.

Nancy:

But it actually was a really formative time for me.

Nancy:

I remember being on the Great Ocean Road and driving along with one of my friends from that school.

Nancy:

We'd gone on a break and I told her for the first time that I said out loud that I'm gay to someone.

Nancy:

And it was just like.

Nancy:

And I came to that bravery to be able to say that to her because the.

Nancy:

The night before, I had been all alone in this place in.

Nancy:

In Melbourne visiting a friend, and she was out and I was listening to Jennifer Knapp.

Nancy:

Did you ever listen to her?

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Amazing singer, songwriter, and she, you know, one of her songs, I was just, like, so connected to it and it felt like she was, like, saying my truth.

Nancy:

Later she came out herself.

Nancy:

I didn't know that at the time, though.

Nancy:

And so I was just like.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And feeling like, so alone and like, I needed to say this out loud, but I didn't know where I could.

Nancy:

And thankfully this friend received it quite well and, you know, still loved me and still slept in a tent with me.

Nancy:

Like, that was one of my fears, is that she wouldn't want to do that as a good Christian girl.

Nancy:

Yeah, she wasn't necessarily a good Christian girl.

Nancy:

She had tattoos.

Nancy:

But we.

Nancy:

We stayed friends to this day.

Sam:

I mean, you know, if we.

Sam:

And I.

Sam:

And I'm asking, I guess this, like, take a step back type of question, because I know what it was like for me, but, like, that moment where you told your friend, I am almost certain would not have been the first moment you entertained that thought.

Sam:

So.

Nancy:

Right.

Sam:

What was.

Sam:

What was that sort of, like back and forth in your mind and in your heart, around your sexuality.

Sam:

Like, up until that point, being surrounded by like, quite conservative reformed Christianity.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

I think the first time I ever really, like, it popped into my head was I was maybe about 12, and I remember seeing a news post where it was like, not post, because we didn't have posts.

Nancy:

It was on the tv.

Nancy:

The television.

Nancy:

Use my remote and put it on.

Nancy:

And this kid was in trouble at school for bullying because he was gay and everyone was making fun of him.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And I was like, oh, what if that happens to me?

Nancy:

I got really scared.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And so I was like.

Nancy:

But I didn't really know what that would mean or what.

Nancy:

Like, I was quite tomboyish as a kid, but I didn't.

Nancy:

Like, I had no context for even thinking about that or looking at that.

Nancy:

And I.

Nancy:

I had an uncle.

Nancy:

I still have an uncle who's gay.

Nancy:

And he did not have an easy life.

Nancy:

And so I think I.

Nancy:

I had a little bit of like, I hope that isn't my story.

Nancy:

Then fast Forward to grade 12.

Nancy:

I was reading Philip Yancey's book, what's so Amazing About Grace?

Nancy:

And which you probably also know.

Sam:

I do.

Nancy:

And there's an article in, like, one of the chapters is on Mel White, who's this super Christian pastor who came out and then lost his wife and his family and his church and all these things.

Nancy:

And I was just like, gripped with fear of, like, what if that happens to me?

Nancy:

Because I already knew at that point I wanted to be in ministry of some kind.

Nancy:

And I had no context to think of being able to come out and be in ministry.

Nancy:

And so it was like, how am I going to hide this well enough.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And so I actually wrote him, and he wrote me back amazingly and was like, hey, thank you for sharing this.

Nancy:

And is there someone in your real context of life that you can talk to about this?

Nancy:

And so I.

Nancy:

I thought to tell my youth pastor, and she and I were quite close.

Nancy:

And unfortunately the main thing she did was like, here's the passages that say it's wrong.

Nancy:

Like, let's pray it away together.

Nancy:

And so we did.

Nancy:

And I kept pushing it down and pushing it down.

Nancy:

And.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Then the next year is when I told no.

Nancy:

And then, you know, fast forward basically another decade and I enrolled myself in conversion therapy and tried to pray it away even more with that.

Nancy:

Tried to.

Nancy:

I almost married a man who also is gay.

Nancy:

Also a common story, I think.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And then it was just like, no, like, none of this is working.

Nancy:

None of this is right.

Nancy:

None of this is my true self.

Nancy:

And so finally at 33, I came out and I've been living more and more authentically who I am since then.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

What led you to, I guess, in like.

Sam:

And I, I think that's actually a really interesting point because a lot of people think that conversion therapy or conversion practices are often externally inflicted on people, but actually sometimes they are self inflicted on ourselves.

Sam:

And so what was it that led you to that point where you were like, actually I need to enroll myself in and obviously like, you wouldn't have used this language that I'm about to use, but like enroll myself in this like horrifically abusive program that's like going to be like awful for my self and spirituality.

Sam:

But what led you to get to that point?

Nancy:

Peer pressure.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

As I think about it, I think that was part of it is that, you know, like one of my friends was going to this group because she was having an affair.

Nancy:

And so she wanted to go and, and get help to, you know, come clean for that.

Nancy:

Another friend, I can't remember why she was going, but eating disorder.

Nancy:

And so they had it as this broad context, right.

Nancy:

Of like coming to get help for these different vices.

Nancy:

And I was actually just moments ago talking with another friend who also went to the same conversion therapy program and he was talking about how damaging it was for him because, like, we were lumped in with like people who are into pornography and child abusers and like all these different things.

Nancy:

And so it really was this weird, like, what is going on here?

Nancy:

And like these very intense prayer groups that, you know, they're trying to keep you accountable and keep you on the straight and narrow.

Nancy:

And it's, it's a different thing.

Nancy:

And it doesn't, it just goes so against this whole aspect of like getting to know who we truly are, what we're truly desiring under any kind of, you know, behavior that may not be a, a wise behavior and lumping them all together and not no space to like reflect on, like what is our actual need deep within here.

Nancy:

And so it's very sad.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

And so what was the moment for you where you came out?

Sam:

Because I know that that process a lot of people think, you know, coming out there's like parties and streamers and it's all loves and sunshine and rainbows.

Sam:

But the reality for a lot of people is that that's not what it looks like.

Sam:

And so what was that moment of self acknowledgment, but also Acknowledging it to other people.

Nancy:

Yeah, like, as you know, like, coming out is such a continuum and it's continually happening.

Nancy:

So it's like, I'll try and zoom into one moment that kind of articulates that.

Nancy:

I was at one of my good friends wedding, and we had gone to Christian summer camp camp together for years, and she was marrying a woman.

Nancy:

And so I wanted to go to this all inclusive wedding in Mexico.

Nancy:

And I was scared because I was like, it's going to out me.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Being out there.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And yet I was like, it's important.

Nancy:

I want to support her and.

Nancy:

And celebrate this time with her.

Nancy:

So I went, and we were all sitting around the pub one night, and these guys walked in and they're like, oh, how many lesbians are there at this lesbian wedding?

Nancy:

And our friend circle kind of just started laughing.

Nancy:

And we're like, well, guess how many do you think?

Nancy:

They start going around the circle and they see our friend and she's got long brown hair and she's an Anglican priest.

Nancy:

And they're like, no, you're not gay.

Nancy:

And she's like, yeah, actually, my girlfriend's waiting for me back home.

Nancy:

Okay.

Nancy:

And then they go to our other friend, she got short blonde hair and she's a hairdresser.

Nancy:

And they're like, oh, yeah, you're totally gay.

Nancy:

And she's like, no, actually, my husband and kids are waiting for me back home.

Nancy:

So then they get to me and they're like.

Nancy:

And at this time, I had no shaved head on one side.

Nancy:

I was like, full head of hair.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And they're like, I don't know.

Nancy:

And I said, I don't know either.

Nancy:

It was like this moment of confession.

Sam:

You'Re telling me, right?

Nancy:

And it was like, the cat's out of the bag from then on out.

Nancy:

And so I then started to, like, have some of those conversations with my people when I got home and I cut my hair.

Nancy:

That was one of my outward expressions.

Nancy:

And so I called my parents to tell them about this haircut and what it represented for me.

Nancy:

And I realized that I, you know, I have a motorcycle license, but I don't want to ride.

Nancy:

I don't want to drive a motorcycle because people might think I'm a lesbian.

Nancy:

And I wanted to have a funky, asymmetrical haircut, but people might think I'm a lesbian.

Nancy:

So I was like, all these ways that I was keeping myself small, even though in my work, I already was a spiritual director at the time and was like, helping people face into the dark places.

Nancy:

And their fears and live the most authentic them.

Nancy:

And yet I wasn't doing it.

Nancy:

And so it really was this moment of like, I don't want to live in fear of what other people will think of me anymore.

Nancy:

I'm gonna step into living how I want to be and how I'm created to be.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

And was that stepping in, did that feel terrifying at the time or did it feel liberating or mixture of both?

Nancy:

A mixture of both.

Nancy:

I say.

Nancy:

I often recommend to my clients, like, don't do it until you feel ready, until you feel safe enough.

Nancy:

Because especially growing up in a Christian context, it is terrifying because you might very well lose your whole world if you do this.

Nancy:

And so I, I was really afraid of that.

Nancy:

But thankfully I had lived in enough progressive spaces by this time.

Nancy:

Like, I did my masters in Vancouver and went to a very progressive Baptist church that had women that were leading things from the front, that were queer and got to see some really beautiful, loving relationships and realized like, okay, maybe this is all right.

Nancy:

And so I had enough windows of think this is possible even at all.

Nancy:

My old people reject me.

Nancy:

I'll still have a few of my newer people to have support from.

Nancy:

And so, yeah, I'm thankful for them.

Sam:

What was it like to tell your family?

Nancy:

My dad said I was ruining his life and my mom said, well, I guess I'll have to get off the board of that conservative Bible college that I'm on the board for a good mom if I can't pray the gay away for her and things.

Nancy:

And so just like, wow, just realizing how much who I am is their identity.

Nancy:

And thankfully I had this grace in that moment to picture my dad as like this toddler whose favorite toy had been taken away and he was just like having this temper tantrum of just like angry and mad and, and was just like, it was kind of this weird out of body experience to just be like, just observe and not get too, too latched into it and not too reactive and have grace for him.

Nancy:

And then even by that afternoon, he already had called me and been like, I'm sorry.

Nancy:

Like that was my own stuff and I love you no matter what and things.

Nancy:

And so I'm, I'm grateful.

Nancy:

It's been a long road of trying to figure out how to be in relationship and especially for them because they still live in the conservative Christian world and they don't have a lot of peers that understand me or what it's like.

Nancy:

And so I still feel that little bit of can't fully love and accept every part of you.

Nancy:

We.

Nancy:

We love you for sure, but we can't always celebrate all these things with you.

Nancy:

And so that's.

Nancy:

That's still hard.

Sam:

Yeah, it's like a.

Sam:

A constant force of tension almost, of not quite being able to just like, ease into that love and relations.

Nancy:

Yeah, I see that.

Nancy:

It's a good.

Nancy:

Good way to put it.

Nancy:

Like, it's just the stiltedness of, like.

Nancy:

I know they love me so much.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And I know they're proud of me.

Nancy:

And yet it's like this, like.

Nancy:

Like the garden hose has been, you know, it's like, cinched a little bit and.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Kinked.

Nancy:

That's the word.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Sam:

I don't.

Sam:

I don't know that Canadians or Americans would use that word, but Australians will use the word.

Nancy:

No, that's.

Sam:

That's.

Nancy:

That's the word I was looking.

Nancy:

Looking for.

Nancy:

But also, how funny is that that my parents.

Nancy:

Love is kinked.

Sam:

Maybe don't use that terminology with them.

Sam:

They might not love that.

Nancy:

I won't do that.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

But at the same time, let me also say that they also love me really well, and they are amazing supports of my kids and me.

Nancy:

And just like.

Nancy:

Yeah, I.

Nancy:

I really am grateful for the ways that they still show up all the time.

Sam:

And so I.

Sam:

And I asked this question.

Sam:

Sometimes people who.

Sam:

Who are, like, listeners think that it's a weird question to ask, but they're.

Sam:

And I think it's.

Sam:

They think it's weird because maybe perhaps they don't understand and that's okay.

Sam:

But it is one thing to come out and to acknowledge, hey, maybe I might be queer in some way.

Sam:

And it is another thing to start having queer relationships.

Sam:

It's like hitting a different part of you.

Sam:

And particularly if, you know, for people who were raised in an environment where, like, you can have same sex attraction, quote, unquote, but having relationships with, like, queer relationships is a very different story.

Sam:

And so what was it like for you to start exploring queer relationships?

Nancy:

That's so good.

Nancy:

I also have noticed that, like, with some of my clients, they.

Nancy:

They only come out once they get in a relationship because then it's like you actually have to share this with your parents or the world, and it's only worth it if it's because it's someone else, you know, and.

Nancy:

Which is like, an interesting look at worth and things.

Nancy:

But, yeah, it.

Nancy:

It definitely amped up again when I started dating someone.

Nancy:

And, you know, I think it hit my parents especially.

Nancy:

I was like, you're not gonna fight this anymore.

Nancy:

You're not gonna pray away the thorn in the flesh.

Nancy:

And you know, like, yeah, I think that was disappointing for them and things.

Nancy:

But it also, like, you know, it's such a continuum of the things that we grow in comfort with.

Nancy:

Because I can remember, you know, even being in my engagement photos and wanting to like, stand with my long haired side, not my shaved head side for the pictures.

Nancy:

And I'm like, people will think I'm in a picture with a woman with rings on her fingers.

Nancy:

There's so many funny things that we like rules that we stay with.

Nancy:

Like even, you know, oh, I don't want to live in the same house until we get married.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Like what rules from Christianity keep, but not.

Nancy:

And it's, it's a funny thing.

Sam:

It, it is really strange, It's a really strange dichotomy, I think, because, And I, and I say that coming from like, I remember moving in with my then girlfriend who is my now wife, but I remember still trying so desperately to like uphold these like traditional heterosexual gender roles in the house.

Sam:

And yet I don't, I'm not living with a man, I'm living with another woman.

Sam:

And it's just not lining up.

Sam:

And it's, it.

Sam:

I think people who have not experienced that perhaps don't quite get the weird internal struggle between like what you know versus what you are living and trying to marry that up and integrate them together so that they're not feeling like they're opposing forces almost.

Sam:

And yeah, it's a weird push and pull, I think for a little while.

Sam:

Until you sort of like find your groove.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Until you kink it up.

Nancy:

Yeah, exactly.

Nancy:

Like you get to just play and be experienced, exploratory and make it up.

Nancy:

Because yeah, we can step off of this patriarchal.

Sam:

Yes.

Nancy:

Platform of like, this is the way it has to be.

Nancy:

And this way it's always done.

Nancy:

It's like my, my partner right now, we don't live together.

Nancy:

And that was really hard for me after my divorce.

Nancy:

I thought like, okay, whoever I am with next, like, we will get married.

Nancy:

Well, she'll help me raise my kids and do these things.

Nancy:

And she was like, no, I, I don't want to.

Nancy:

I don't think that that's wise for us.

Nancy:

And I was like, if we love each other, we must get married.

Nancy:

And it's like, no, actually, it's not necessarily the best thing.

Nancy:

And it's actually really beautiful the ways that we each have our own separate lives and we come together maybe a little less codependent than the average lesbian.

Nancy:

Who knows?

Sam:

Yeah, you're not fitting a lot of stereotypes there.

Sam:

Like, where's the, where's all of this?

Nancy:

Yeah, I did that the first time and realized maybe this is not.

Sam:

It's funny because I think a lot of people think, you know, obviously deconstruction is a bit of a, you know, hashtag deconstruction.

Sam:

But I think a lot of people think that that's only happening in terms of the Bible or God or faith concepts.

Sam:

But actually you deconstruct so much more than that and, you know, deconstructing what relationships look like and what gender roles look like and, and not just romantic relationships, but parent child relations relationships and things like that.

Sam:

And so it sounds like, you know, your relationship with your partner now was an ability to think critically and deconstruct what relationships broadly looked like in an authentic way for the both of you, as opposed to just what they should be.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

And so I'm curious what coming out and living as an authentic queer woman, what did that do for your relationship with God?

Nancy:

I think, you know, I was grateful for that church that, you know, over a decade ago was already in a Baptist context having these conversations about could those scriptures be read in a different way than we traditionally have read them and help me find so many ways that I could not have to just divorce my spirituality to embrace my sexuality.

Nancy:

And so that was really helpful.

Nancy:

And, and so I felt in some ways like, you know, I'm, I'm good with God, like me and Jesus are still buddies and, and things, but at the same time, I did leave church after a while, after coming out and just, you know, like I had been leading worship and speaking and doing different things, but felt like I couldn't.

Nancy:

I basically gave a coming out sermon and then did a mic drop.

Nancy:

I'm out.

Nancy:

You folks figure out where you're at.

Nancy:

Because by this time I had moved to a conservative Calgary and the church had not done their work yet on that matter.

Nancy:

And so over the last decade they have done that work.

Nancy:

And I, I would call myself now post Christian.

Nancy:

Like, I don't necessarily identify with just being a Christian.

Nancy:

I'm grateful for that heritage and some of the things that it taught me in that relationship that I got.

Nancy:

But also I find, you know, some Buddhist practices that are so beautiful and you know, if you go, if you read Hafiz, like, he's a Muslim mystic and yet he's one of the ones that has fed me the most lately.

Nancy:

And so I was mentioning Liz Gilbert and she's the author of Eat, Pray, Love and she's started this practice of daily love letters and she's created a whole community on Substack.

Nancy:

And we're just celebrating one year anniversary of doing this together as a community.

Nancy:

So every morning we start with Dear Love, what would you have me know today?

Nancy:

And then just writing whatever comes.

Nancy:

And I find that to be the most nourishing spiritual practice that I've done in years.

Nancy:

And it really feels like it's connecting me with God, the divine, my true highest self, my fear self.

Nancy:

Like that, that love that writes to me.

Nancy:

She knows all the fears.

Nancy:

I can't hide from that.

Nancy:

And she also loves me so unconditionally.

Nancy:

And so it's been this really beautiful way to access all of those parts and nourish them totally aside from this like patriarchal top down God thing that used to happen.

Nancy:

And so I'm really grateful for being able to have a renewed way of connecting with my own spiritual side.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Which is all of my sides.

Nancy:

And that's, you know, a lot of the work that I love doing is helping people with their spiritual formation and like noticing what the divine is looking like for them these days and how they can access that and have some kind of relationship apart from whatever dysfunctional one they used to have.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And so it's, it's really interesting to see how that shows up for each person.

Sam:

It's.

Sam:

That's a really beautiful practice.

Sam:

That sounds like self compassion on steroids.

Sam:

Almost like it's.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Which is, you know, almost.

Sam:

I mean, the first thing that sort of like comes to me is that it's almost like accessing the divine, whoever that is for you by going inward as opposed to going outward, which is often the opposite of what we are taught, which is to externalize everything.

Sam:

But actually as soon as we start to internalize and we go inward and we access the divine by accessing ourselves, which is really beautiful.

Sam:

It's a really beautiful concept for people.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

So I mean, I mean, and you sort of just started to talk a little bit about it.

Sam:

But I do love to ask like, where your sense of spirituality is now and, and what that looks like and does that cause any tension for your relationships around you?

Nancy:

For sure.

Nancy:

I'm often reminded that I'm being prayed for and worried about my salvation and things.

Nancy:

And I often just like, no, I'm good.

Nancy:

Like I feel very connected to God.

Nancy:

And yeah, I, I am God also, but I don't say that part out loud.

Nancy:

And I, Yeah, I, I would say that nature is another thing that really feeds me.

Nancy:

And I'm always trying to find ways to help all of us connect with divine more.

Nancy:

And so I've, I've been talking lately about like, should I just start a church where we meet out at the river and you know, we find a rock or a leaf and then we bring it back and we tell us what God is saying about that.

Nancy:

And I think, you know, labyrinths are another way that I love connecting with the divine my higher self wisdom.

Nancy:

So, yeah, Tarot cards, or I, I would say Oracle cards.

Nancy:

A little less alarming for people.

Nancy:

I did actually speak in a Baptist church recently and used Tarot oracle cards.

Sam:

Wow.

Nancy:

And they, they were a little alarmed and not sure what to do with me.

Nancy:

But you know, I feel like people all the time open their Bible to whatever page and then close their eyes and touch on a verse and they're like this, this is the verse for me from God.

Nancy:

And then just read into it whatever they want to read into it.

Nancy:

And I feel like these cards are about the same.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Or you get an image or a word and you're like, what does this mean in your life?

Nancy:

And it really is connecting you with the innate wisdom that you already know.

Nancy:

But often we're afraid to look at and vocalize, see out loud.

Nancy:

And so this is, this is a way of connecting us to that deeper wisdom.

Sam:

Yeah, I love that.

Sam:

And, and I, I think one of the biggest questions that I remember asking was where does the Holy Spirit end and intuition begin?

Sam:

And I think it's one of those sort of things that often there are so many overlapping experiences in terms of, like you just said, and you know, just like randomly opening a page of the Bible to randomly picking an oracle card.

Sam:

And it is often, if conservative Christians can put the label of biblical on it, then it sometimes makes it okay.

Sam:

But the concepts are so similar.

Sam:

Right.

Sam:

And so it's, it's going.

Sam:

Actually, can we like shaft labels in general and actually just look at what it is and what it's doing for you and what it's not doing for you and, and work with that as opposed to the labels.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

But I, I can imagine having been to a Baptist church quite a number of times, I can imagine that that would not, would not have gone down as smoothly as what you just talked about.

Nancy:

But they're doing pretty well in their, in their progressiveness.

Nancy:

So wasn't hell didn't freeze over with that one?

Nancy:

Yeah.

Sam:

I mean, it sounds like though, there is still ways that you have found to integrate that part of you that wanted to do ministry, but also as an authentic queer person and not have to feel like you needed to choose between the two.

Nancy:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And I, in some ways I did for a while put the spiritual side on the show and tried to like fit into just being a regular life coach.

Nancy:

That helped with work and relationships and things.

Nancy:

But in the last year even I've come full circle around to, you know, owning that I also am professionally trained as a spiritual director.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

And you know, that is a very special thing of being able to sit with people in that spiritual realm.

Nancy:

hin myself is the documentary:

Nancy:

And it is so powerful.

Nancy:

If your people haven't seen it yet, I recommend it.

Nancy:

You can watch it, you can stream it online.

Nancy:

1946, the movie dot com.

Nancy:

And it, it really shows how this mistranslation is like a telephone game that's happened in the Bible over all these multiple revisions.

Nancy:

And so in the year:

Nancy:

And it's like, it's crazy that that was a mistranslation from these Greek words that meant more of like lazy and sexually exploitative.

Nancy:

And imagine if sexually exploitative had remained in as something that they were condemning.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Imagine how the world would be different if that was the thing that was targeted rather than a whole people group, like move from an act to a whole people group that was targeted.

Nancy:

And so I had the opportunity to, to not only interview the, the director when she was making it a few years ago on my podcast, but then when it came and was streamed in in our city here, I was asked to be on a panel and I, I wanted to wait to watch it till we were there, but I probably should have watched it first because I was just like a puddle at the end.

Nancy:

There's this one scene where they interview this guy who was a whistleblower on this project and he's now an 86 year old man.

Nancy:

He's been gay his whole life.

Nancy:

He's been a pastor his whole life, thankfully in the United Church, which he's allowed to be out.

Nancy:

But he, they asked him, what was it like for you to be part of this documentary and to like have your words shown now?

Nancy:

Because in some ways I think he thought that nothing really happened amounted from his letter because they wrote him back and they said, yeah, we, we do think this is a bad translation.

Nancy:

We're going to change it in the next edition.

Nancy:

But that was 10 years later.

Nancy:

And in that time, all these translations had been made.

Nancy:

And so they asked him, like, what was it like for you to have this documented?

Nancy:

And he's like, it's been life changing.

Nancy:

Like, it really has made me realize I wasn't called to be a pastor in spite of being gay.

Nancy:

I was called to be a pastor because I'm gay, and that there's this important work to do.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And hearing that, I was like, oh, my goodness.

Nancy:

And just, like, goosebumps and shivers and tears.

Nancy:

And then I was supposed to go up on this panel, and they were like, what.

Nancy:

What was the most impactful thing?

Nancy:

Thankfully, there's an intermission, and my partner saw me.

Nancy:

She's like, are you okay?

Nancy:

And I was like, no, but I.

Sam:

Can'T tell you about it.

Nancy:

I'll just start crying.

Nancy:

She's like, it never takes as long as we think.

Nancy:

And as the Nagoski sisters say, emotions are a tunnel.

Nancy:

You got to go all the way through them.

Nancy:

Otherwise, you'll be stuck in the middle.

Nancy:

And so we went to a little room, and I just cried and cried and cried.

Nancy:

And I was like, I think I need to open myself up to this spiritual work again.

Nancy:

And, you know, this pastoring that has been a part of my past.

Nancy:

And so when they asked me on the panel, like, what was most impactful, I told them this.

Nancy:

This line.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And that I.

Nancy:

I'm open to being used spiritually again.

Nancy:

And that's been a crazy thing.

Nancy:

Now it's opened up all these opportunities to speak at some of these different churches and speak on some more of these panels and things.

Nancy:

And it's like, okay, like, I think it's time.

Nancy:

There's.

Nancy:

There's enough of us now that are deconstructing who are in.

Nancy:

Who are kind of like spiritual nomads.

Nancy:

We're trying to figure out, like, what is home and what.

Nancy:

What will feed me spiritually now.

Nancy:

And so I love that we're on this.

Nancy:

It's time finally to be doing this work together.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

And I mean, as, like, I'm a big sort of, like, energy person, and, like, I can.

Sam:

Like, your body language changes when you talk about it as well, which is, like, it's really beautiful to see.

Sam:

See people able to integrate all parts of themselves and not feel like there needs to be something that's put on the shelf because of the other.

Sam:

And so, you know that I think.

Nancy:

That'S such a common thing so for, like, Christians and queer people, because it's like, you have to choose one camp or the other, because they're often like, why would you still be a Christian?

Nancy:

Like, they've been so mean to us, or, oh, you're gay.

Nancy:

You can't be part of this church.

Nancy:

And so it's just, like, to really be able to integrate all those things.

Nancy:

And I think I also realized I was ashamed of that Christian past, and I didn't want to share that with people.

Nancy:

And so now to be, like, to lead with that.

Nancy:

And, you know, I was just on an interview previous to this and meeting these two new friends, and.

Nancy:

And I led with that story of being a missionary kid.

Nancy:

And, you know, I wouldn't have done that years ago.

Nancy:

I would have hid that part, especially knowing that they're, like, queer leaders in the community.

Nancy:

And by doing that, they then shared their very Christian heritage as well.

Nancy:

And they were just, like, astounded at my openness.

Nancy:

And I think it helped them share that aspect of them that maybe they don't share everywhere either.

Nancy:

And so I think it's.

Nancy:

It's neat to see the ways that when we can embrace the things that we thought were wrong or bad in many different directions, we.

Nancy:

We get more freedom, and that inspires freedom in others as well.

Sam:

I.

Sam:

I like to end with, like, some encouragement or a piece of advice or a thought for those who are.

Sam:

Who are deconstructing, but particularly for those who might be trying to integrate their sexuality or their gender or being a part of the LGBTQIA community with their faith and their spirituality.

Sam:

What would you say to those people?

Nancy:

I would say, give it time.

Nancy:

There is a lot that happens as come around, perhaps.

Nancy:

And then the other thing I would say that I.

Nancy:

I have to say to myself as well, which is, listen to yourself.

Nancy:

Listen to your gut.

Nancy:

And.

Nancy:

And maybe it's the Holy Spirit.

Nancy:

But I.

Nancy:

You know, I've also studied human design, which is a really amazing personality profile that takes wisdom from many different traditions and 80 of the world.

Nancy:

Our gut center is our wisdom, and it only says two things.

Nancy:

It says, huh and ah.

Nancy:

And if we can listen to that, that's when things go smoothly, and that's when, like, we really can live in a peaceful place.

Nancy:

And so I have to remind myself of that, too, because the.

Nancy:

The social connotations are what make that hard.

Sam:

Yeah.

Nancy:

Because someone might ask you for a date or someone might ask you, you know, to go, do you want to go to this restaurant?

Nancy:

And you'll be like, but we don't want to hurt someone's feelings.

Nancy:

So we're like, okay, sure.

Nancy:

But it's like the more we can only say yes to the things that are deep.

Nancy:

Yes.

Nancy:

For us, the more life goes smoothly.

Nancy:

And so may we all remember that because it is much more peaceful.

Sam:

Yeah.

Sam:

Oh, a DPS I love that.

Sam:

I love that terminology.

Sam:

That's really beautiful.

Sam:

Is there anything that you would like to share about the work you're doing with our listeners before we finish up?

Nancy:

I have called my work many different things over the years, like spiritual direction, coming out, coaching.

Nancy:

I'm trying on a new frame of my work.

Nancy:

It's all the same thing.

Nancy:

But I've been really looking at like it's about coming home, coming home to this place within ourselves that, you know, we've been told is wrong or bad or that we can't trust.

Nancy:

And so I'm, I'm starting to offer, you know, free workshops where we can come together and get some of these tools for coming home to ourselves.

Nancy:

And so I would love if this, what I'm saying is resonating with any of your people to come and I'd love to meet you and help that coming home process.

Nancy:

And so the, you probably have show links or something.

Nancy:

You do.

Nancy:

But my, my website is centered ca and I am home.

Sam:

Lovely.

Sam:

And yes, all of, all of that will be in the show notes if people want to reach out to you or connect with you in some way.

Sam:

I think the more voices that we can have in this space that are saying you don't have to choose between different parts of yourself, the more integrated and authentic people we will have in the world.

Sam:

And so I appreciate the work that you do and your time to have this conversation.

Sam:

So thank you for joining me.

Nancy:

Thank you for your amazing questions.

Nancy:

I really.

Nancy:

You stumped me on a few and that doesn't usually happen.

Nancy:

And so I love, I've made, I've made some notes.

Nancy:

I'm going to go and do some more pondering.

Nancy:

Yeah, this is really great.

Sam:

I love that.

Sam:

Thanks, Nancy.

Sam:

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface.

Sam:

I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

Sam:

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories.

Sam:

Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content.

Sam:

I love connecting with all of you.

Sam:

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone.

Sam:

Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward.

Sam:

Take care.

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About the Podcast

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Beyond The Surface
Stories of Religious Trauma, Faith Deconstruction & Cults

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About your host

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Samantha Sellers

Sam is a registered therapist in Australia; she specialises in Religious Trauma, Deconstruction and the Queer Community. She works locally in Goulburn, NSW and online worldwide (except US & Canada)

She values the privilege that she gets to sit with people, hear their story and share in the highs and lows of the thing we call life. Sam loves nothing more than being a part of someone feeling seen and heard.

Sam is a proudly queer woman and married to the wonderful Chrissy and together they have a sweet Cavoodle named Naya who is a frequent guest in the therapy space.