The One Saved So Hard She Needed Therapy

Sam: 00:00:06

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

FOREIGN I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface. Welcome, Elise.

Sam: 00:01:28

Thanks for joining me.

Elise: 00:01:29

Thank you. It's always nice to meet with you.

Sam: 00:01:31

I know. This is. We were trying to work out before we started recording.

It's the third time that you've been on beyond the Surface, one for your story and one to chat about good old Prosper. Oh, it was such a. Well, like, everybody who listened to that episode loved it, too.

And we never did a part two, and they've never released a season two. I don't know whether it's happening or not.

Elise: 00:01:57

Yeah, I haven't heard.

Sam: 00:01:58

Yeah, I don't know. It's. Anyway, we're gonna get sidetracked if we talk about that, but I'm sure that everybody who is listening knows exactly who you are.

But for those who don't, where in the world are you?

Elise: 00:02:10

At the moment, I am in Melbourne, Australia.

Sam: 00:02:13

Beautiful. Well, I say beautiful. I imagine it's miserable weather there.

Elise: 00:02:17

It's so cold. I'm literally counting down. Yesterday I was so happy. It was the, like, the start of the last month of winter.

Sam: 00:02:25

Oh, yeah.

Sam: 00:02:27

See, I have this conversation with people all of the time because I love winter. Like, I love it. This is like my favorite kind of weather. And everybody is counting down and I'm going, no, I hate that. That's a terrible idea.

But yeah, okay. Before we just get sidetracked into Like a complete unraveling of whatever we freaking talk about.

For people who have not listened to your original story episode and I would recommend people go back and listen to that. We are doing a revisit because you have released a book and it's so freaking good. It's so good. And we're going to chat a little bit about that.

But for people who don't know you haven't read your book, haven't listened to the other episode, give us a quick overview of who you are, what flavor you've come from and why you're landing right here today.

Elise: 00:03:22

Every time someone asks me, like, what, what flavor of Christianity did you come from? I want to go, I don't know, just pick your worst flavor that you don't like.

Sam: 00:03:29

Yeah.

Elise: 00:03:30

I grew up in Evangelical Pentecostal. Christianity was always part of quite a larger church and I grew up in that space in Melbourne, so I've always lived in Melbourne.

I gave my life to Jesus at the age of seven.

Sam: 00:03:47

Oh, so well informed.

Elise: 00:03:49

Yeah. Well after being threatened with hell. So I don't know the choice you make at that point. But from then I was all in, mainly to avoid hell.

But I then spent the next 30 years immersed in high control fundamentalist Christianity and then 11 years of that was then in a Pentecostal mega church in Melbourne of which I ended up working full time on staff. I was doing all, all the things. So I was preaching, teaching, serving.

I think I served in every team possible except for creative because I don't have a musical bone for my body, so I never did that. Yeah. And then basically I just served until I broke and everything imploded spectacularly, which I talk about in more detail in my book.

And that's kind of where my deconstruction process started. Was just really seeing the system for what it was. And then. Yeah, that kind of just, it was just a domino effect and everything just started to. Yeah.

Fall apart or fall into place. It depends. How long after you ask me what it was like.

Sam: 00:05:03

Yeah, yeah.

Elise: 00:05:05

And then yeah, ended up leaving. Leaving the church, unraveling my faith. And now I work as a trauma informed practitioner supporting people that are going through the same thing.

Sam: 00:05:18

Amazing. I say amazing when people share that and it's actually like never really all that.

Like the end bit is amazing, but all of the other bit just kind of like is not all that amazing. I love the fall apart or fall into place. Like it's two sides of the same coin. Hey.

Like you just, it's almost like depends on the Day when you flip the coin as to what it feels like.

Sam: 00:05:42

Yeah.

Elise: 00:05:43

Yeah. Am I falling apart today or does it feel like I'm finally free? Yeah, depends.

Sam: 00:05:48

Yeah.

Sam: 00:05:49

And I feel like even no matter how long you've been out or how long you were in as well, those days just like flip from one to another. Like you can go, I feel like months and everything is falling into the place and then one day not falling apart.

Elise: 00:06:06

Yeah. One day just look back and go, what happened? What was that? Some days you flip the coin like 20 times and you don't know which way's up.

Sam: 00:06:16

Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:16

It's wild. It is a wild ride. I, I mean, I talk about that I gave my life to Jesus at the ripe old age of 12 and so five years earlier, I can imagine.

I just like, can't fathom like, you know, 12 year olds don't know like, like beyond the end of the week, let alone beyond the end of eternity, let alone 7 year olds knowing that.

Sam: 00:06:41

Yeah.

Elise: 00:06:42

s, early: 2000

Sam: 00:06:53

Yeah.

Elise: 00:06:54

By the time you're 12, you are hearing about other, other kids in America that have not denied Christ when a gunman is coming to their school at Columbine.

Sam: 00:07:05

Right?

Elise: 00:07:05

Yeah. Then being sat down to go, this is a standard you should be trying to live towards.

So then trying to prepare yourself for death or torture at the age of 12 or 13 is insane.

Sam: 00:07:21

Yeah, it's wild.

I remember telling Chrissy at one point, like she thought it was absolutely batshit crazy that we had the conversation of like, if someone put a gun to your head, would you deny Christ? And I was like, oh, it is absolutely batshit crazy. But it absolutely happened also. It's wild.

Elise: 00:07:38

Yeah, absolutely.

I used to have dreams all the time about being beheaded because it was the end and you know, you, you had to make this choice and it was either suffer now or suffer for all eternity. So.

Sam: 00:07:51

Yes.

Elise: 00:07:52

Is that to make?

Sam: 00:07:53

Yeah, absolutely. Oh yeah. Time to be alive. It was. Okay, take me back to the moment where you were like. Because all three of us at the collective all have ebooks. Right.

So we've all done that. We all did the thing, shared our story, but at what point you go, no, I'm going to make this like a whole ass book.

Elise: 00:08:15

Yeah. My, my story. When I wrote my ebook, I was very freshly out of church and still really figuring out what part I was comfortable sharing.

And there was A lot of fear there for me still. So there was a lot of my story that I shared, and I was sharing bits and pieces of it through Instagram or my blog.

And I think when I realized that that needed to become a book was when I could not fit everything that I wanted to say into a blog or Instagram post with it. Making sense and being, like, cohesive.

Sam: 00:08:55

Yeah.

Elise: 00:08:56

And also when I couldn't stop kind of ranting in my head. Yeah. That's when I thought, okay, I think.

I think this needs to be something a little bit longer and also to provide me space to share the details in a way that I could really sit down and. And think through and process. Yeah. So that's when I'm like, I can't just keep doing this through Instagram and a blog.

Sam: 00:09:20

Yeah.

Sam: 00:09:21

I mean, the logistical part of my brain goes, well, now you've just got, like, a whole book worth of content also. It's so good.

Elise: 00:09:31

Yeah. It's all written down.

Sam: 00:09:35

Yeah. Did the idea of writing a book. A book feel exciting or terrify or all of the above?

Elise: 00:09:44

I think all of the above.

Overall, I was really excited when I finally landed on the feeling that this was a good thing and I could kind of set the fear aside of, you know, what is going to happen when this comes out, who's going to read it, how is this going to affect people? So, yeah, once I kind of put. Was able to put that to the side, I was really excited.

And I think for me, it actually showed me progress that I was at a point where I felt like I. Like, I wanted to be able to share all of this. Yeah. So it was. And it was a bit of everything when I actually sat down and started writing.

Depending on which part I was writing.

Sam: 00:10:28

Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, I think if people don't know your story or they haven't read your ebook, which is like, unlearning obedience. Right.

So you were the good girl, Christian. Like, and so to then go and write a book. Write a book titled Holy Hell. It's not really like, the good girl mold that you're fitting anymore.

So it's also, like, pulling apart just, like, who you were for a significant portion of your life.

Elise: 00:10:58

Yeah. And it was that sense of, I can finally actually just be who I am.

Sam: 00:11:03

Yeah.

Elise: 00:11:05

Or. Yeah. Who I've always told I shouldn't be.

Sam: 00:11:08

Yeah.

Elise: 00:11:09

So even coming up with, like, the title and the tag bag on the front was a big thing for me. Like, I. Especially with family who are still very much involved, Like, I Ran that past a few people before it came out.

Not in the sense of, is this okay with you? But just going. Just a heads up, like, this is what it's going to say on the title of my book.

And, like, family were all amazing and very supportive, but it was still. That moment of going, you. You probably still don't quite see the full person that I am now.

Sam: 00:11:46

Yeah, absolutely. And the title has a bit of shock factor to it. And so what did it mean to you when you wrote that title and the tagline underneath?

Elise: 00:11:57

Yeah, I had a few different ideas for the title that I was kind of playing with. Most of them were kind of. Yeah.

Not what you would expect from me if you knew me in the past, but I feel like this title captured the, like, the essence of how all of it felt when I. When I was in it. But also looking back and going like, that was just so crazy.

Sam: 00:12:26

Yeah.

Elise: 00:12:27

And because Hal was such a big part of my story and what kept me in that kind of high control system for so long, so. And being told that that was holy. Right.

That avoiding hell was the holiest thing that you could do, and helping other people to avoid hell was the holiest thing that you could do. And then also bringing in the reality that I needed a lot of therapy to recover from that.

That's kind of like the truth of what happened and what it felt like. But also. Yeah. Just. Just a little bit of that sarcasm.

Sam: 00:13:06

Yeah.

Elise: 00:13:07

It's. It's okay to bring that in.

Sam: 00:13:10

Yeah.

Elise: 00:13:10

And the, you know, the part memoir, part middle finger, part survival guide.

Sam: 00:13:16

Yeah.

Elise: 00:13:16

Is how the book will read.

Sam: 00:13:18

Yeah.

Sam: 00:13:19

Why was writing it in that way important for you?

Elise: 00:13:24

Yeah. There.

Look, I wanted to be able to bring all the parts of my story, and for all of the parts of my story to fit in there, there needed to be a real mix of, like, getting a sense of the emotion that I was going through at the time. So the part memoir is. Yeah. Most of it is my story. There is some education in there.

There's some, you know, there's some experiences that I saw other people go through, but most of it is my story.

Sam: 00:14:01

Yeah.

Elise: 00:14:01

And then the part middle finger is that a lot of people don't want me to tell my story.

Sam: 00:14:06

Yeah.

Elise: 00:14:07

They don't want the truth of what happened out there. And there was a lot of reasons they were trying to give me to not put it out there.

Sam: 00:14:17

Yeah.

Elise: 00:14:18

That was more of like, I know you don't want me to tell your story. I don't give a shit. I'm Just going to tell it anyway because it's actually my story to tell.

Sam: 00:14:27

Yeah.

Elise: 00:14:28

And the part survival guide is that I. I wanted people to have options of different things that they could try if they're recovering from this kind of system or these kind of relationships. And not in a way that felt like homework.

Sam: 00:14:44

Yeah.

Elise: 00:14:44

You had to do this.

So some of them are more serious, some of them are more reflective and some of them are like, just have some fun with it and like have a laugh where you can. Because if I didn't, if I didn't put that kind of humor into the book, I think I'd still be crying.

Sam: 00:15:04

Oh, absolutely.

Elise: 00:15:05

So important. But yeah, to break it down into those, those sections and to have space for people to rant and to really just express how like how up it really was.

This was not okay.

Sam: 00:15:23

Yeah, absolutely.

Elise: 00:15:26

To find a space for their anger about that and then also to have room where you can then laugh and you know, find humor in that and to just go, well, yeah, sometimes you just gotta look back and go, that was so crazy. It's like almost as laughable.

Sam: 00:15:46

Yeah.

Elise: 00:15:48

Like a book on trauma. Like it's a. It's a heavy thing.

Sam: 00:15:52

Oh, they're so heavy.

Sam: 00:15:53

Yeah, absolutely.

Elise: 00:15:55

I think some that the humor and the space to be able to laugh about it I think can just disarm the shame and the heaviness a little bit.

Sam: 00:16:03

Yeah.

Sam: 00:16:04

I mean I. I think I wrote it as part of my review and it was one of the first things that I said to you, which is like, we read so many memoirs in the space that we work in. We read so many people's memoirs and some are extraordinarily heavy and they deserve to be because what they're talking about is so heavy.

But it is such a really.

It's like it's a really cool space to be able to write about the heavy but also use humor as a way to talk about that in the spaces that feel appropriate and safe and good and healing for you. Because also we've got a laugh. And also some of it was batshit crazy and just gotta so much of it.

Elise: 00:16:46

And I was never allowed to use humor before.

Sam: 00:16:49

No.

Elise: 00:16:49

It's like a no go zone.

Sam: 00:16:51

Yeah.

Elise: 00:16:52

So to even be able to step into that part of myself that's always been there. I've always had a really dry sense of humorous.

Sam: 00:16:59

Yeah.

Elise: 00:16:59

That all my sarcasm was quite quickly shut down as being disrespectful.

And if you were irreverent, like some of the sarcastic comments that I put throughout the book, like, that was highly dangerous to be a reverend, so it was also kind of. Yeah. Part of that middle finger going, I can actually just embrace this part of who I am.

Sam: 00:17:26

Absolutely. Did that feel like it was a really vital part of your healing? Because I don't know about. I'm also naturally very dry, sarcastic.

Like, I'm like equal parts sarcasm as I am. Like, I reckon it's half of my personality. Like, it's like that sarcasm and cynicism and humor.

And I think that that was a key part of me being able to make sense of some of the stuff that I went through. Was that the same for you?

Elise: 00:17:57

Yeah, absolutely. I would say I'm like half sarcasm, half caffeine.

Sam: 00:18:01

Oh, that's so good.

Elise: 00:18:04

That's just who I am.

Sam: 00:18:05

Oh, relatable.

Elise: 00:18:07

Like, that was so healing.

Sam: 00:18:09

Yeah.

Elise: 00:18:09

To be able to write that. And. And I. I did get pushback before the book I was writing.

Like, I don't know, every second or third Friday, I would do a post of religious trauma sarcasm. And I have another little book that I put all of them into, and I did get pushback going this like, you are mocking God.

You are mocking my God, is what a friend said to me. And that's not okay. And I'm going to have to unfollow you. And for me to kind of sit back and just go, that's okay. Unfollow me. If that.

If that is not what you would like to be reading, that's fine. But I found that a lot of other people that had experienced religious trauma.

Sam: 00:18:52

Yeah.

Elise: 00:18:52

Were really connecting to that sarcasm because it kind of like, you need to laugh and cry and take a breath. And I think it's just. I don't know, sarcasm for me, and humor is how I survive the heaviness.

Sam: 00:19:08

All same.

Elise: 00:19:09

Yeah. So it's nice to actually go. That is a major part of my personality, and I love it now.

Sam: 00:19:16

Yeah, absolutely. And for that to not be seen as a negative as well.

And I mean, there is one thing to have that natural humor and way of processing in, like, your everyday life. What was it like to capture that in the book? Because capturing humor and experiencing humor are not the same thing.

Elise: 00:19:37

Yeah. I think that was a. I'm. I'm gonna write this as I would say it either to myself or to someone else. And then it was kind of a.

Just a hold my breath and wait and see how it lands.

Sam: 00:19:50

Yeah. Right.

Elise: 00:19:52

Yeah. I. I had no idea how that part of the book was going to land for people.

And I Just hoped that I had found the balance between acknowledging the heaviness and the seriousness of their experience while also going. There is. There is room here for you to be able to find moments of lightness.

Sam: 00:20:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Elise: 00:20:14

So capturing it. I just tried to capture it as I would. As I would say it in real life and just cross my finger and hopefully with readers, just hope for the best.

Sam: 00:20:27

It's.

It's funny because, like, anytime I talk about, like, hoping for the best or wishing for something, particularly for people who have religious trauma, it's like, oh, it would have been so easy to just, like, throw up a prayer that this lands at this point.

Elise: 00:20:41

Yeah.

Sam: 00:20:42

Like, we just also. Just like that. It's like a sarcastic streak as well, to go. Oh, yeah, like, you know, praying for a parking spot or praying that this lands and.

And all of that sort of thing.

Elise: 00:20:55

Yeah, I did that for a long time.

Sam: 00:20:58

Oh, so funny. I mean, I know that, like, and we talk about. This is a hill I think that we die on as well, is that language is important.

And so I guess, you know, in terms of, like, capturing the stuff in the book, you talk about the power of language and having the correct language for what you're experiencing and making sense of your own story and what has that been like, and why is language so important to you?

Elise: 00:21:26

Yeah, language for me is really important because that's where my recovery started. It's where I really started to see the system that I was in for what it was. It's where I started to understand the abuse that I had experienced.

I was very disconnected from how I was feeling about it, but I could think about it, so I could. I was very. Like, even Christianity for me was very intellectual until I realized how much fear was there for me. It was really intellectual.

Like, I knew the doctrines. I was teaching them.

Sam: 00:22:02

I was like, you were teaching, though, Right? So of course it's going to be intellectual.

Elise: 00:22:06

Yeah. Yes. I was lecturing at the Bible college, so I. Yes, I knew all of that. I knew that language inside and out.

Sam: 00:22:14

Yeah.

Elise: 00:22:14

So to be able to understand a different kind of language, it felt natural for me to start exploring that. And it also felt safer than immediately trying to connect with my feelings, because my feelings were all over the place.

I'd been diagnosed with PTSD by then, so understanding the language of coercive control, of power, dynamics of narcissism was a big one. And this is what I was learning sitting in therapy with my counselor, who was helping me to understand this language. And it was.

It was all of that language that I learned in regards to the abuse I experienced that I then started to see all of those same things playing out in the church and then with my relationship with God.

Sam: 00:23:07

Yeah.

Elise: 00:23:08

So language changed everything for me. And an understanding of those different dynamics that were taking place.

Sam: 00:23:15

Did that happen like quickly or was. Was there a period of time where you were like, nah, it can't be.

Elise: 00:23:22

That was a long period of time. Yeah. So I stayed at the church for two years after I experienced the, the abuse and then the show that was the COVID up. When I disclosed the abuse.

I still stayed for two years going this, like, I, I have to make this make sense here.

Sam: 00:23:45

Yeah.

Elise: 00:23:46

And so really trying to go, this doesn't, at that point I'm like, this doesn't feel right. And I'm really struggling to intellectually make this make sense anymore.

Sam: 00:23:56

Yeah.

Elise: 00:23:57

And so, yeah, there was a long period of time of trying to, trying to make the church okay.

Sam: 00:24:04

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:24:04

The mental gymnastics. Let's make something make sense that doesn't make sense. Let's make something okay, that's not okay.

Elise: 00:24:10

And then realizing that none of it ever really made sense.

Sam: 00:24:13

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think I argued with my therapist for a good 18 months that like, it wasn't really just trauma or spiritual abuse. Abuse.

I'm like, no, you gotta be kidding me. Like, no, absolutely not.

And it is just like that conditioning that you have that of course it's not like, because the church is good and, and if there is an issue, well, you're like, you're the issue, right?

Elise: 00:24:38

Yeah, because I can't, you know, I've lost faith because I can't see how this should be working.

Sam: 00:24:44

Yeah, exactly. Were there things, I mean, you've sort of started alluding now to like the abuse that you experienced?

And so were there parts of this book that you shared for the first time that you hadn't shared publicly about before? And what was it right to write about some of that really difficult, painful stuff?

Elise: 00:25:06

Yeah, that's probably the part of writing the book that took me the longest, was writing the parts that I haven't shared anywhere before and really sitting with, what am I, what am I comfortable sharing? What is my family, as in my immediate family, comfortable with me sharing?

And what part am I holding back on because I'm scared or because it's just really personal and it's, it's only my business. So I rewrote those parts a lot. And so I did end up writing about my experience of being groomed and then the Abuse that occurred. And a lot of the.

The trauma that I experienced was not necessarily the abuse itself, but what happened when I disclosed that abuse to the church and the silencing and the.

The threats that were disguised as, we care about you, and we know you care about the church, so you want to make sure that the church doesn't look bad and, like, just outright blaming. Asking me what my part was in the abuse. Yeah. So the, like, those parts were really hard to write about.

And as well, it was quite confronting to realize as I was writing this story how much of that blame I had then internalized, like, over a long period of time, not just from the abuse, but the fact that I wasn't able to just stand up and protect the church and blaming myself for things like that. So kind of seeing there was this external element, but also how much I then internalized of that.

Sam: 00:26:50

Yeah.

Elise: 00:26:50

Yeah. So that was. That was hard to sit down and write just one. Just reliving what had happened, but also being really sensitive to what.

What I felt safe putting in there.

Sam: 00:27:04

Yeah.

Sam: 00:27:04

What did looking after yourself look like whilst you are. Because it is painful to, like, you're not just, you know, thinking about, like, you are writing it. You are capturing it.

You're finding new language to explain it in a way that feels safe for you. You are reliving a lot of those parts. And so what did looking after yourself look like for that?

Elise: 00:27:26

Yeah, it looked like taking breaks. My personality is, if I start something, like, I'm. I'm gonna finish it.

Sam: 00:27:34

It's my ADHD brain. I was like, if I don't finish something, it's not getting finished.

Elise: 00:27:40

Yeah. Yeah. So I had, like, I had that urge to go, I have started this.

And I was genuinely excited that I was finally, like, it was finally starting to come together. But some of those harder parts, I had left till the end to be able to add them in. And so I needed to. I needed to take the space. Sometimes I.

It's probably not great to admit as a counselor, but sometimes I didn't notice that I needed the space until I wasn't sleeping at night.

Sam: 00:28:15

Oh, yeah.

Elise: 00:28:15

And I was up thinking about it all the time and going, okay, like, maybe I shouldn't have spent, like, five days of this week working on writing that part of my story.

Sam: 00:28:25

Yeah.

Sam: 00:28:26

So, I mean, how dare you be human, Elise?

Elise: 00:28:28

Oh, my gosh, I should be able to do all that on sleep and eat and just be fun. Yeah. So then I started to slow down a little bit and go, okay, I'm Gonna spend, like, one day of the week I'm gonna write about that part.

That feels really hard. And the other days I'm going to do editing and I'm going to go back and, you know, figure out where other things are going to fit in the book.

So it still felt like I could keep working on it.

Sam: 00:28:54

Yeah.

Elise: 00:28:54

But to take care of myself, I had limited the amount of time in a week that I would spend writing about those parts.

Sam: 00:29:01

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:29:03

I mean, I think when we're, like, when we talk about abuse and grooming and things like that as well, it's not information that even in our own inner circle and in a world that is publicly known.

So to put that in a book, were you having to disclose this to people who you knew would read it in your family and your inner circle that didn't already know?

Elise: 00:29:28

Most of my inner circle knew. The reason that I felt comfortable to be able to share it in this book.

And what had been stopping me previously was that my daughter didn't know the extent of what had happened. And she's now much older, so I was able to sit down and have that conversation with her and get my. My extended family.

So, like, my cousins and my auntie and uncle, who have never been part of the church, so kind of just watched from a distance. They were really curious and really supportive. So it was lovely to be able to.

To share different parts of the control dynamics that were going on behind the scenes. They knew the. The kind of black and white of what had actually happened. I mean, it's. They were.

All of my family were extremely supportive for the two years that we were going through the court case.

Sam: 00:30:31

Yeah.

Elise: 00:30:32

But to be able to. Yeah. To just have really curious conversations about the. The control and the power that was. Those dynamics that was existing behind it.

Yeah, that was. That was really nice to be able to talk to them about it, but there was no one that I felt like I had to go and explain my story to.

Sam: 00:30:53

Okay. Yeah.

Elise: 00:30:55

And anyone that. That would feel like I owe them an explanation, they're probably not people I'm gonna be giving an explanation to.

Sam: 00:31:03

Yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 00:31:04

Yeah.

Sam: 00:31:05

I think. Yeah. The people who want an explanation don't necessarily deserve the explanation. For. Sure. All deserve the conversation at all. So.

Sam: 00:31:14

Yeah.

Elise: 00:31:15

There's generally some judgment that's coming with that already. They've already got their idea of what I should have done or should have said.

Sam: 00:31:21

Absolutely.

Sam: 00:31:22

Yeah.

Sam: 00:31:22

Now I'm conscious that I'm asking this question. You might not want to answer it, but I'm going To ask anyway. Which is what?

And I don't want to obviously, like, want you to feel like you need to talk about your daughter, but what was it like for you to have that conversation with her?

Elise: 00:31:38

Yeah, my daughter and I are really close, so we've only got one daughter, and she's turning 17 in a couple of months. And she knew bits and pieces, so it wasn't a complete surprise that this had happened.

And it was more the nature of the abuse, which is actually not in the book, but it is something that will be public eventually.

Sam: 00:32:07

Yeah.

Elise: 00:32:08

So wanting to also be really honest with her because we are very close.

Sam: 00:32:12

Yeah.

Elise: 00:32:13

And her response was exactly what I was expecting. It was just beautiful. It was. She didn't really ask questions. She's just like, yeah, like, I'm so sorry that that happened to you. And like, she.

She watched knowing that there was a lot of stuff going on. So to be able to share that with her and. And to know that she. Yeah. Like, she. She doesn't have the same kind of fears that I had when I was her age.

Sam: 00:32:44

Yeah.

Elise: 00:32:45

For her to be able to kind of just straight away step into that was really unfair. That shouldn't have happened. Yeah. It was just. It.

It feels like it's a weight off for me, for, you know, obviously my husband knew everything, but for our daughter to now know and for all of us to be on the same page, it was. Yeah, it was really special. For something that's so horrible and hard. It was a really special moment.

Sam: 00:33:10

Yeah.

Sam: 00:33:11

And a nice pat on the back for mom. Good job. I mean, she, like, you know, like, kids don't naturally be. Become those people.

So I imagine that it felt like a nice parenting affirmation moment that, you know, she doesn't have those same instilled fears in her that you grew up with.

Sam: 00:33:32

That's nice.

Sam: 00:33:34

Yeah.

Elise: 00:33:34

Yeah, it's really nice.

Sam: 00:33:35

Yeah.

Elise: 00:33:36

I can give myself a pat on the back.

Sam: 00:33:37

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I mean, so we've threw. We've thrown around language, and we've thrown around the word abuse.

And I love when people talk about this and I've talked about this on my social media, and people tend to be pretty up in arms about it when we use it, but that's okay. I'm all for a controversial post. We both, and you in the book, talk about the idea of a narcissistic God.

And so I'm curious what your experience was like in terms of, like, noticing moments or patterns that led you to see that before we hit what I'm Going to ask is the emotional side of that, but what were you just noticing?

Elise: 00:34:19

Yeah, I. It was this real kind of parallel moment of working through the narcissistic abuse I experienced from my perpetrator.

Sam: 00:34:28

Yeah.

Elise: 00:34:28

To them sitting in Sunday services and hearing the lyrics from the songs, what was being preached from the stage. And I was again, because I love learning. I was reading so many books about narcissistic tendencies, narcissistic abuse.

There's a great book about narcissistic narcissism in the church. And so I was reading all of these kind of. With a view of looking at the church and the system.

But then very quickly I'm like, this is kind of how I see it. Like this is God in my, in my life. This is the God I've been handed.

So it was thing like some of the common traits of narcissism is like a larger than life personality. And God is everything. Right. He's not just big, he's all of it. The us versus them mentality.

Again, not just in the church, but with God going like, I'm it. You can have no one else. It's just me. And it's either you believe or you're deceived, you're holy or you're rebellious. I've chosen you, or I haven't.

Devaluing feelings to only being able to have certain kind of feelings. Compulsive lying was a really interesting one because that was hard to sit with because I'm like, God never lies and he never changes.

But sitting with that idea that the God I was handed is a compulsive liar. So things like, you know what, you're free, but you have to obey me.

Sam: 00:36:06

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:08

Or you're loved unconditionally, but only if you perform and say the right prayer at the right time. Yeah. Or you're chosen, but you're also really unworthy to be chosen.

Sam: 00:36:18

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:19

So starting to see that. And then like the classic, like the, the end justifies the means.

Sam: 00:36:23

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:24

It's whatever God wants. As long as it glorifies him. Who cares how many people get hurt?

Sam: 00:36:28

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:30

So, yeah. Kind of seeing some of those core narcissistic traits in God, I'm like, hold on, this is eerily familiar. Yeah.

I'm like that, like I don't want anything to do with that kind of God.

Sam: 00:36:46

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:47

And that, that was a big. That felt bigger for me than being able to say I don't want anything to do with the church.

Sam: 00:36:53

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:54

Because I would often hear, well, you know that, that's the church, but that's not God.

Sam: 00:36:59

Yeah.

Elise: 00:36:59

You know, like, yes, blame. Yes. The church hurt you, but God didn't hurt you. Like God actually did.

Sam: 00:37:05

Yeah, absolutely.

Elise: 00:37:07

Yes. They were kind of the. Yeah, I know. Like, I know both of us talk about, you know, we had a narcissistic God.

Sam: 00:37:15

Yeah.

Sam: 00:37:16

And I mean, it's one thing. I agree. I think it was just that moment where it was like, oh, this is. Seems very familiar to everything I know about narcissism.

And yet there is one thing to like, cognitively notice those commonalities and the themes and the things that look familiar and the same. And. And to look at that like, cognitively.

And there is another thing to go, this is the God that I loved, that I devoted my life to and that I wanted to like, tell everybody about. There is an emotional component to realizing this as well.

And it's not as fun as realizing the, the familiarities in narcissism and the qualities of God. And so what was that like for you?

Elise: 00:38:10

Yeah. As soon as I started to recognize or just acknowledge how I was feeling about it is when I immediately wanted to defend God.

Sam: 00:38:19

Yeah.

Sam: 00:38:20

It's automatic, right?

Elise: 00:38:22

Yeah. Because it feels so uncomfortable to sit in that space of going like, this can't be right. Surely this can't be right.

But the more I learned how to connect to what felt safe for me and what was unsafe, the more I realized that not just when I was in church, I would be having panic attacks, which I became much more aware that I was probably having them for a long time before I realized I was. You know, you just take that as the Holy Spirit touching you. Yeah.

When I'm like, actually, no, I've been having full blown panic attacks for a long time.

Sam: 00:39:05

Yeah.

Elise: 00:39:05

But then realizing that my body was feeling the same way when I was trying to talk to God.

Sam: 00:39:11

Yeah.

Elise: 00:39:11

And I was feeling anxious, I would get really nauseated. I like the fear was huge. I didn't realize how scared I was of God.

Sam: 00:39:24

Yeah.

Elise: 00:39:25

And sitting with that is terrifying.

Sam: 00:39:28

Yeah. Yeah.

Elise: 00:39:29

Because you also don't know, like, how, how do you let that go when there's so much fear around? What happens if you do let God go?

Sam: 00:39:38

Yeah.

Sam: 00:39:39

There's a huge difference, I think, between, you know, a spiritually abusive leader. You can leave the church, you can never see that person again. But you have been taught about God and the same qualities are being seen.

And last time I checked, we were also told he's there when you're having a shower and when you're like, bed at 2 in the morning and you like it. You can't get rid of that instinctively. You can't just not see that and be okay automatically. It's. Yeah, it's wild.

Elise: 00:40:12

It's the constant surveillance.

Sam: 00:40:14

Yeah.

Elise: 00:40:14

Going. I'm watching and not in a nice way.

Sam: 00:40:19

Yeah.

Elise: 00:40:20

You know, like I'm watching and I'm waiting for you to do something wrong.

Sam: 00:40:23

Yeah.

Elise: 00:40:24

And I don't think is.

In my 20s I felt like that and the way that the, the church had encouraged me to work through that was that you just like, you're just seeing God as a judge and harsh and you know, but he's really loving. And so again, it was a me problem. I'm just seeing him wrong. Except that's what was getting taught every week, was that he is the judge.

Sam: 00:40:47

Yeah.

Elise: 00:40:48

And he is always watching and always judging.

Sam: 00:40:52

Yeah, absolutely. And I, I want to also stress for people listening that if this topic is making you feel uncomfortable, that's okay.

Like, well, I've been, I've been grappling with these concepts for quite a while. And even just having this conversation, I still notice my chest constricts having it like.

And I hold my breath when I say things and so like you can know things and you can still. Like, it takes time for your body to start to adjust to these things.

Elise: 00:41:20

Yeah. I still have my anxious. Like I picked up my blue top and I'm playing with my blue tact.

Sam: 00:41:25

Yeah.

Elise: 00:41:25

Really anxious.

Sam: 00:41:26

Yeah.

Sam: 00:41:27

It's like, it's so, so all consuming and just like embody. You embody it until you have to unembody that and unintegrate it and unlearn it and embody something that is safer and more authentic and more you.

But as a light transition, how batshit crazy is it that we were taught, we had to be taught that God was watching us in the shower?

Elise: 00:41:52

Yeah. Or in the bedroom.

Sam: 00:41:54

Like, it's so stupid at least.

Sam: 00:41:56

Yep.

Elise: 00:41:57

Yep. Here's what you gotta watch the songs you sing in the shower.

Sam: 00:42:00

Oh my gosh. It's so stupid.

Elise: 00:42:05

He's watching when you can't sleep.

Sam: 00:42:07

Oh my gosh. But we're not okay with Santa. But anyway.

Elise: 00:42:13

We were okay with Santa because Jesus said it was okay, apparently.

Sam: 00:42:18

Right?

Sam: 00:42:18

We were not okay. Oh my goodness.

Elise: 00:42:21

Different story.

Sam: 00:42:22

Oh yeah. We couldn't do the Easter Bunny either, so.

But anyway, I'm gonna do another quick, funny transition before I ask the next question because I'm gonna read like a tiny little paragraph of your book that I just like could not stop. Stop laughing. At the end of it. And. And so it's in my Pentecostal upbringing and in my many years inside a charismatic mega church.

The spiritual realm wasn't just active. It was obsessed with me. Everything had a hidden spiritual meaning, a demonic plot twist or a divine lesson in disguise.

A stubbed toe, the enemy trying to trip me up. Literally feeling discouraged. A sure sign of spiritual assignment against me. And my favorite bit, Hormonal, probably. Jezebel.

Elise: 00:43:03

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You couldn't be hormonal. That was never an excuse.

Sam: 00:43:07

It was.

Elise: 00:43:08

I mean, the evil spirit.

Sam: 00:43:09

Yeah.

Sam: 00:43:10

It was. When I read. When I read those, like, three words. Three words just was so funny. I was like.

Because the word, like, the concept of, like, a woman being a Jezebel was just, like, common knowledge. Like, it was just thrown around like it was confetti. And, like, just the most normal things that happen were not.

They were a spiritual attack from the enemy. It's just wild.

Elise: 00:43:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, that one's still hard for me to let go of.

Sam: 00:43:44

Yeah.

Elise: 00:43:44

In terms of. I will just. That will be an automatic thought for me sometimes if something happens and I've got to go. Oh, serious?

Like, seriously, that thought is still there?

Sam: 00:43:53

Yeah.

Sam: 00:43:54

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I'm curious, actually. I'm gonna flip. I flipped the order of all of these questions.

Elise: 00:44:04

Sauce. That's fine. I'm keeping up.

Sam: 00:44:08

I'm gonna flip again. Since you've released the book, what has it been like? How. Like. What's the like response been from people who know you? People who have.

Have you had people from your former church read it and respond to it? And also complete strangers in the corner of the Internet?

Elise: 00:44:27

Yeah, I. As far as I'm aware, no one from my church. Church has read it that I'm aware of. I mean, I don't see who actually buys the book.

Sam: 00:44:39

Yeah.

Elise: 00:44:40

So I have no idea. The only thing I can go off is I'm pretty sure if they did, I would hear something. So I'm assuming that they haven't.

Sam: 00:44:50

Yeah.

Elise: 00:44:52

The. Yeah. And I think that, like, the response has been a mix of, like, really beautiful but also brutal.

And the brutal part for me is that the masses of people who are still in that system that have said nothing.

Sam: 00:45:06

Yeah.

Elise: 00:45:07

That have just stayed silent. And, you know, sometimes some days I can go. That's a great thing. Because I don't really know if I want to hear their opinion on it.

And sometimes that really hurts because some of them were really good friends.

And I would have thought until I understood a lot more, the dynamics that were going on that they would have seen what was going on and go, yeah, that's not. That's not right. We can't stay in this place and support this. That's probably been the harder part. But the.

The majority of people who have read the book and connected with me have really seen so much of their own story in it, and that's been really lovely. And there's been a lot of feedback around the language. So being able to finally put language to what they've experienced.

I mean, I had one person in Australia that had bought it and she sent me a message saying, I'm doing it as a book club with my friend in the us and she's like, we're finding so many similarities even on, you know, in different countries. And also people that have just been really kind to themselves and have read it in little bits and pieces. Yeah, this is a lot. It.

It does have really heavy parts. And so kind of reaching out and almost seeking permission to go, I'm reading it. But, like, it's really triggering.

I might just stop for a bit and being able to kind of support them and go, absolutely, you. You can stop for as long as you need to stop because the heavy bits are really heavy.

Sam: 00:46:49

Yeah.

Elise: 00:46:50

Yeah. So it's just been. It's been a little bit of a crazy experience. And then having family read it and. Yeah.

Really offer compassion and curiosity and to also sit there with me, people who have not been in that environment before, and go, that's insane. Like, no idea that's what was going on. So it's also been really nice to have my own story validated.

Sam: 00:47:17

Yeah.

Sam: 00:47:18

It's such a weird. Actually, firstly, imagine being the subject of a book club. That's cool.

Elise: 00:47:25

Yeah. Even between two people, I'm like, oh, that's. At least they got someone supporting them while they read it.

Sam: 00:47:31

Yeah, absolutely. It's such a weird.

I find this, even just with social media content and things like that, is that it's such a weird space when somebody feels seen in your words and in your content and in your experience because you simultaneously have this internal experience going, oh, that. I'm really sad for you that you had to experience that. And you can relate to any of this.

But also I'm really glad that you feel seen and you feel understood in those words. It's such a weird experience.

Sam: 00:48:02

Yeah.

Elise: 00:48:02

And it really is that mix because you.

Sam: 00:48:04

Yeah.

Elise: 00:48:05

You can't. You can't just reply and go, I am so glad that you feel validated because, like, I kind of Wish you didn't.

Sam: 00:48:11

Yeah.

Elise: 00:48:12

You didn't experience something like I did. Yeah. So it's that. It's kind of that. That Both. Right.

Of going, I'm so sorry that you actually resonate with this, but I'm also really glad that you feel a little bit less alone.

Sam: 00:48:28

Yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 00:48:29

Yeah.

Sam: 00:48:31

I'm curious what younger Elise would think about this book. What would she say?

Elise: 00:48:39

Yeah, I had a good think about this question.

Sam: 00:48:41

Yeah.

Elise: 00:48:43

And I think she would be horrified. Yeah. If.

If she actually opened the book and managed to get past the COVID Because she would have seen the COVID and thought, this is a really dangerous book that someone who's very deceived has written. And if I'm going to have any engagement with this book, it will be. So I know how to pray for them.

Sam: 00:49:08

Right.

Elise: 00:49:09

Yes. So she. Maybe. Maybe she even would have fasted for me. You know, she might have gone that far.

I think if she read it, she would have highlighted sections and then written verses next to them that would have proven me wrong or to be able to counteract the lies. So she knew exactly how to pray.

She would have worked really hard to not see herself in those pages, because seeing herself would have meant that something was really wrong, and not just with the system, but with her whole life, with her purpose, with her identity. And I think that would have felt unbearable for her.

So maybe in a quiet moment, she would have paused at a line that hit a little bit too close to home. Maybe one of the sarcastic posts would have made her laugh before she caught herself.

Sam: 00:50:04

Yeah.

Elise: 00:50:06

Yeah. But I think she would probably shut the book and put it away and try and forget that it existed.

Sam: 00:50:13

Yeah.

Sam: 00:50:13

Quickly try and suppress any sort of.

Elise: 00:50:18

I don't think she ever would have been able to forget it.

Sam: 00:50:20

It.

Elise: 00:50:20

I think it would have still been there. She would have tried hard, though. She would have prayed a lot.

Sam: 00:50:24

I love that you, like, usually, like. I mean, and there obviously was a deep reflection in that.

But also, like, part of it was like, she's gonna fast for me and she's gonna pray for me, and she's gonna biblically annotate the book. Like, I love that.

Elise: 00:50:39

Yeah. There would have been, like, sticky notes on every page.

Sam: 00:50:43

Oh, former Sam and former release would have been good friends. I don't think we would have been friends with them now, but they would have definitely been good friends.

Elise: 00:50:53

Yeah. They would have formed a prayer group to pray.

Sam: 00:50:57

Absolutely. Oh, my. A prayer chain, even. Yeah, absolutely.

Elise: 00:51:03

Daily updates.

Sam: 00:51:05

So funny. Chrissy always jokes with me. She's like, man, I would have hated you back then. And I was like, I don't blame you. She was not. She was not a fun time.

A lot of. A lot of it.

Elise: 00:51:17

So, yeah, I was never a fun time.

Sam: 00:51:21

Oh, goodness. Okay. I have reworked because I obviously like to finish these episodes with some encouragement.

And I was like, I don't want to ask you the same thing that I've asked you before, even though your response probably would be different to then anyway, I suspect. But I reworked it to. As someone closes the final page of the book, what do you hope they're left with? Feeling.

Whether it's something for themselves, something about their own story, their own healing, or something that they've taken from yours. What do you hope they're left feeling?

Elise: 00:51:59

Yeah, I hope when they close the last page that they feel less alone, maybe less ashamed, and that they have more permission to question or to rage or to rest and to keep recovering.

I hope that they can see their story not as failure or being, you know, someone that has backslidden, but as a story of survival and that in that survival they can reclaim their agency and their voice. Yeah. So I guess I hope that they. They kind of walk away feeling like they don't have to stay small and quiet to be loved and that they're not broken.

They were just in a system that taught them that their wholeness was not okay.

Sam: 00:52:51

Yeah.

Sam: 00:52:53

Beautiful. Thank you for writing your story. It is. Honestly, it is really, really freaking good.

And it is really well paced with the heavy and the light and the funny and the like, delusional and like, it is like some. Some memoirs are not as well paced for people to actually just be able to sit there and read it and not feel like they have to stop.

You can, but it is so well paced that I, like, I think it's not always necessary as well. Like, the light and shade is really beautiful. The sarcasm speaks to the heart of my soul. I love that. And so quick plug.

Obviously, everything will be in the show notes, but for people who don't want to go there and just want to listen to your lovely voice, tell them where to get it. It. Where are they getting it?

Elise: 00:53:46

You can get it on my website, which isjust elise her.com or you can go straight to Amazon to get the book. So it's either paperback or there's an ebook if you. Yeah. If you don't like to have the actual paper version.

Sam: 00:54:00

Beautiful.

Sam: 00:54:02

Amazing. Thank you. Thank you for joining me yet again. I love having friends that I can just rope into coming on the podcast. It's so fun.

Elise: 00:54:10

Thanks so much for having me. It's always fun to chat that.

Sam: 00:54:14

Oh, it's so good. I love it. And I love when we get to chat and we just get to laugh about the crazy and like the part of us that just felt like this was normal.

It's so good.

Elise: 00:54:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:54:29

Thanks, Elise.

Elise: 00:54:30

No worries.

Sam: 00:54:34

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you.

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.