The One Who Divorced Religion

00:06 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagurra land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

00:46

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high-control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. Sam and each week, I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. Curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface.

01:35

Welcome, janice. Thanks for joining me.

01:36 - Janice (Guest)

Thank you, and I say why, which is hello. I'm joining you from the traditional unceded territory of the Sioux people in the Okanagan Valley of what is now known as British Columbia, canada.

01:44 - Sam (Host)

Beautiful. I love when people open and honour the traditional land. I usually ask people where in the world you are, and so I love when people honour the traditional landowners of where they are. So thank you so much for that and thank you for joining me. I'm so excited for this conversation.

02:03 - Janice (Guest)

Well, me too. You're the closest that I've come to Australia, you and Dr Josie McSkimmick so. I'm hoping to make it out your way at some point, but in the meantime this conversation will have to do.

02:15 - Sam (Host)

Oh, we love Josie. She's on the advisory committee of the Religious Trauma Collective that I co-found, so we love Josie. She's such a wonderful voice in this space, so that's a pretty good reference for Australia. You're much better than Josie, so we love that. Okay, I like to start these episodes with a very broad, very vague question that allows you to choose where we start. So where does your story start?

02:46 - Janice (Guest)

around the world in their mid: 2020

03:17

But boy oh boy, there was a street preacher and they got saved, and so then I was born into that family, and so I grew up with my parents speaking in tongues, anointing my head with oil when I was sick. They were loving and you know, like all people had, some had some issues as well, but so I grew up believing that the and being taught that the Bible was the inerrant word of God, Holy Scripture for all time. All the stories were true. They weren't just metaphors. And then I watched my older siblings step away from the faith one by one. I saw how much it hurt my parents and I determined I would never cause that kind of hurt.

04:05 - Sam (Host)

Of course, I'm the only one now that's went on and wrote a book about my whole deep I was like, for the people who are listening, janice has a book behind her called divorcing religion, which is probably going to tell you a lot about where this episode is headed. Surprise, yeah, um, I feel like. Um, like it's probably a random reference, but there's a character in Doctor who that goes spoilers, and so I feel a little bit like that's what we just did. Yes, so what was like? What do you remember about growing up in that space? What did you think about the speaking in tongues and the? I mean, pentecostal spaces are big, charismatic. You know, I have people who have never stepped foot in a church, who go. They're the bat shit crazy Christians, and so, yeah, what was that like for you to grow up in?

04:58 - Janice (Guest)

re your time, this was in the: 1970

06:32

And then, as I became a teenager and I really sort of adopted the faith and made it my own, and that's when I started going to a different Pentecostal church from my parents. At that point they would bounce around because my dad was a fundamentalist and also he was a narcissist and so he would often get into disagreements and believe that the pastor was misinterpreting and that only he had the right, and so they would go from church to church. And so I just kind of found my own Pentecostal church and stuck with that. But then I really socially, that was my place. I joined the choir and the drama and the youth group and I was always in a public school. My parents didn't have the money to send us to private Christian school.

07:21

So I remember also feeling like a fish out of water and feeling like I had to witness, witness to my poor friends who are going to hell and so earnest, so earnest about it, but also recognizing.

07:36

You know, I'm, as I got into junior high, like I'm not going to be invited to any parties, like nothing, because I am just the biggest goody two-shoes around, you know, always ready to report. If I smelled something, if I heard someone was going to have a fight or anything like that, you know I was furious. I felt like that was my um, that was the role that I was supposed to play, so it earned me the nickname of the constable and um, you know, it's just, that's just how I rolled um, but it, uh it eventually got uncomfortable as I couldn't help but try and save uh, the junior high kids around me, and they didn't take kindly to it, they thought it was obnoxious, which it was having fun living their lives. And then here I come in my shirt with the big Bible verses on it and everything, all kind of stuff like that. So then there was bullying. That started to happen and of course, like a good devout fundamentals Christian, I took that as being persecuted.

08:42 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, you're a model now.

08:48 - Janice (Guest)

That's right, that's right. Right, boy, I'm going up and up. Um, yes, so then I, rather than taking a step back and looking at, oh, am I contributing to this situation in any way? It's just like nope, there it must be, it's all about jesus and so. So then I contacted some of the nuttier folks from the church that I was a part of, and they decided we needed to have a march for Jesus around the school, march around seven times, like the walls of Jericho, and we're marching and praying and casting out Satan. And I believed it. And now I'm on this side of things. I'm like, wow, that that is extreme. I mean, I'm radicalized.

09:31 - Sam (Host)

I'm laughing because, like 15 year old me would have been marching right alongside of you um yep, uh, we had like a once a year thing in our high school where all of the Christians in the public school put on a thing to serve the serve the rest of the school as good Christians did, and I was the person who walked around with the megaphone, so I absolutely would have been right alongside you. Okay, so throughout all of this time, like, who was God to you?

10:04 - Janice (Guest)

Like, personally, yeah, it very, very personal and this is a big. I feel like this is a difference maybe between Pentecostal or evangelical Christians and some other um varieties. So it was very much me oriented, in the sense of it was all about my relationship with Jesus. And so I prayed, you know, quite routinely, every day. I had a long prayer list, read my Bible, wrote down the scriptures, memorized them, like even in the church groups I was very, you know, I'd be sitting at the front taking my notes, as you probably did too. And of course, in religious circles, the more extreme one gets, the more one is lauded and praised for their commitment to Jesus and to the kingdom. So I wasn't receiving feedback that, you know, sister, you're tipping over like you're going way off the deep end. There was nothing like that.

11:06

It was just I was being praised for it. But at one point the bullying did become too much. I remember near the end of my grade nine year, and so I decided that I wanted to change schools, and so I forged my mother's signature on a piece of paper to transfer me, and I decided well, if the forgery is accepted, it's holy forgery.

11:36 - Sam (Host)

It's.

11:36 - Janice (Guest)

God-worship.

11:37 - Sam (Host)

You know whatever you have to tell yourself right.

11:41 - Janice (Guest)

It was accepted. That's right. And so then in grade 10, I started at a different school and I decided maybe I'd kind of cool my religious jets a little bit and just see how it went if I wasn't quite so pushy about it. Although we did have to do a science presentation that year and I decided to do mine on abortion and how you know, I had read all these pamphlets from last day's ministries I don't know if you guys have heard about them over in Australia and they were very anti-abortion. So they put out all these tracts and pamphlets and I had them and I put them all over this board and was talking about the evils of abortion and how awful it was.

12:24

Now, in my innocent state at that time it never even crossed my mind that I might have classmates who were sexually active or who had had abortions. I just thought I was warning them all for the future, you know, in the future when you're married, you know, or whatever. And so that was, and I remember my teacher being fairly horrified, but again, I was ready to any swings and arrows that came against me. I would just call them persecution, but so that was. That was kind of the only really overboard that I went that year and I even was trying to fit in I got invited to one party. I was so excited. One party and I had my driver's license and the other kids didn't yet, because I was older in the class. So I offered to be a designated driver because I understood there was going to be some drinking at the party. Sure enough, there was. Not by me, not by me.

13:22 - Sam (Host)

But you're setting an example.

13:24 - Janice (Guest)

That's right, that's right. And so then, finally, one of the girls that I had taken to the party. She says to me we need to find so-and-so. She's, she's really drunk, she's throwing up, she's not in a good way, we need to take her home. So we load her into the, to the truck and we're, we're're driving home.

13:43

And I wasn't used to driving this vehicle of my dad's and I didn't know how to shift the high beams. And, sure enough, police officer comes up the hill as I'm going down and then he I don't change my lights, and so he turns around and pulls us over. And I'm 16 years old, I'm very innocent, I've never been pulled over by the police. And he, I rolled down my window and he says what have you been drinking? I said this orange pop and I stuck out my tongue so he could see the orange. And he's like get out of the car.

14:16

Sure enough, the girl throws up in my dad's car. Just all this, it's just from bad to worse. But that was my, as I was kind of trying to reach into the secular world and see, did I? Did I fit there? And so it was a lot of feeling uncomfortable and not being sure where I fit in, and I didn't want to disappoint my parents, I didn't want to disappoint God, but I was really tired of being a goody two-shoes and I wanted to have a boyfriend and you know all those usual things.

14:49 - Sam (Host)

so it was hard, it was awkward yeah, I think one of the biggest things that people don't talk about enough is actually being. It is hard to be a hardcore. I described myself as a hardcore, black and white, obnoxious Christian, right Like I was not. People did not like me. I was not a well like. My circle liked me because they were the same kind of people, but outside of that, not so much. It's hard being a Christian to be like the witness for Jesus in a public high school with a wide variety and diversity of kids around you public high school with a wide variety and diversity of kids around you and the pressure that that puts on you, because that's the role that you are supposed to play. But also you have this pull to be wanting to just do normal teenage accepted.

15:37

Yep, exactly did you notice that as a pull in the moment, or do you look back at that and now know that that's what it was?

15:47 - Janice (Guest)

I think I was. I think I was aware of it at the time too. So then I, when I senior, high school in Canada is grade 11 and 12. And so I, you know, was attending a school in grade 11 and 12. And I did.

16:04

There was a young man who fancied me, and so we started dating. And he wasn't religious. He occasionally, very occasionally, came to church with me, but in the end I chose the boyfriend over the over the religion. So I stopped going. And of course, then there's the purity culture, indoctrination. We didn't call it that in the 80s, but that's what it was.

16:28

And you know, my mom had told me a man, a person's going to have sex with you. A man's going to have sex with you just because he can. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? That was a big thing that I heard a lot. Mom, you're referring to me as a cow. I don't appreciate it, but at the time I didn't think that. So, sure enough, I was unwilling to have any relations with him until I was 19.

16:55

And that's an adult in Canada. So we were out of high school by then and I thought okay, if anything does happen, I'm an adult and I can manage whatever happens. So, sure enough, we're intimate with each other and of course it was like a huge letdown. Whatever we're taught that it's going to be, it's not that. It was like a huge disappointment, a big letdown. But then, to my horror, this guy that I really loved and I've been with for three years of my life broke up with me. That was it, and then I was like I am the chewed gum, I am the cow that gave the milk for free.

17:33 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I imagine that just reinforced absolutely everything you had been told, which is that you know you are just a vessel for guys to.

17:42 - Janice (Guest)

You know, get off and and have sex with, and and go along to the next person yes, and then my self-esteem, of course, just plunged and plummeted and hit an all-time low, so that I'm just drinking all the time. I'm in the bar every night like a barfly, trying to prove to myself I'm actually worth something. Uh, people do want to be with me, even though that one didn't. It was very, very messy. And also around that time I started singing in different rock bands because I love music, very musical, as I said and so in my city I had the opportunity to join a rock band, and so I, and that was lots of fun.

18:24

But even that was uncomfortable, because I'm up on stage with my fellow musicians singing heathen songs, you know, belting them out, but but really guilty about it, guilty, like even really wondering oh, can I sing this song? Should I, you know, should I sing the song? And I certainly would not have said I wasn't a Christian at that time. I would have maybe said I was in a backslidden state or whatever. So this goes on for years. And then in my 20s I think, 22 or 23, I had a back to Jesus moment and it was very serious and sure don't we all.

19:06

And so I attend this church service with a, with an old friend, and uh, and it happened to be communion Sunday and you can't take communion unless you're right with Jesus. So I, I apologize to God for every heathen thing that I've done, and would he take me back? And then I took the communion and everything was amazing and I felt renewed.

19:28

And I went back home and I told all my roommates you know, things are going to change around here and I pulled down the fake penis off the wall and I was getting rid of all these things when, whatever was around there Penis on the wall, just on the corkboard maybe, but it wasn't mine, but anyway, I decided of course then that it was completely inappropriate and it could not stay, and so eventually, of course, I ended up moving out of the very fun but very heathen house and just plunging myself absolutely back into the Pentecostal Christian world, and then moved back home, back to Kelowna with my parents, and then my pastor introduced me to a young man. I guess they thought I was 23 and they probably thought I was going to become an old mate, because there was like nobody.

20:23 - Sam (Host)

I wasn't, and so yeah, I mean you should have been married with kids by that point.

20:28 - Janice (Guest)

I know, I know I. So yeah, I mean you should have been married by that point. I know I know I was. I was in college and the 22 year old and 20 year old Christian kids around me were all getting engaged this one summer. I was like what is wrong here? So they invited me over and there were three eligible bachelors. Of course I really liked bachelor number two. He was lots of fun. Of course I I really liked bachelor number two. He was lots of fun. But bachelor number three he met the requirements for me. He was tall. You know you got to have standards. He was tall. And then, uh, also, he took his faith very seriously. Number two was maybe just a bit too much fun, so I ended up with number three and, sure enough, yep, we got married and started. Our holy family Went off to.

21:12 - Sam (Host)

Bible college. I imagine if and I'm actually drawing as you're talking, I'm drawing so many parallels to my story as well I imagine that after that back to Jesus moment, you went in full force, like you went in probably harder and heavier than you had before because, like, that's usually what I see, that's what I did, and I imagine that bachelor number three was the choice, because I used to always have this slogan that whoever I chose needed to love God more than he loved me. Right?

21:45 - Janice (Guest)

Because that was like standard. Yeah. Yeah, he was very, very serious about his faith. He hadn't become a Christian until he was um 18 or so, but he was. He was very devout and very sincere and and a nice person too, but um, very kind of cerebral like, not super affectionate, so very different from me in some pretty significant ways. Um, and then he, after we had our first baby, he wanted to uh, go to bible college. So I thought that's wonderful, that's perfect. So off we went. Uh, we were terribly poor, didn't have two nickels to rub together. We had just had baby number two at that time, like, literally, the that was the baby was an infant and we're off at this bible college.

22:33

And, um, once we'd been there for a couple years, I started noticing when we would be in town because, like farming communities, these women would come into the grocery store and they would be wearing head coverings and they always had like modest dresses and everything on. And I said to my very smarty pants husband at the time now I call him my husband I said to my husband, who are those? I know they had Amish people in Alberta. And he says, no, they're not Amish, they're a type of Mennonite. And I said, well, why are they dressing like that? Like, are we still supposed to be dressing thatite? And I said, well, why are they dressing like that? Like, are we still supposed to be dressing that way? And he said, well, paul does talk about it in the New Testament and I don't see that there's been any excuse given for why women shouldn't dress that way. He said, but we just don't, we just don't practice it Like it's just whatever.

23:24

And he was definitely not a pressureful type of person, but I was like more rules, are there more rules that I'm missing out on? Because, remember, I'm the constable and one of the. I think the biggest reason I was the constable was because my dad, being a narcissist and a fundamentalist, was very volatile emotionally and was abusive, and so if I could learn the rules, I felt safe. So rules were very important to me and so, sure enough, we get home from the store and I get the lexicon and the concordance and all the things to help me properly understand the word of God. Sure enough I see, oh, women are to be covering their heads when they're in prayer, and they're always to be in an attitude of prayer, and they shouldn't be wearing jewelry, and they blah blah, blah, blah blah. And so I asked him. I said, well, do you mind if I start wearing a head covering because I feel convicted? I feel convicted that I should be doing this, and he's like okay if you want to.

24:26

You know, not really a big deal. Now, I didn't have a clue how to sew, so I got my holy glue gun and I got some fabric and I put the fabric on a headband that I had and and I stopped cutting my hair, got rid of my makeup I wasn't even wearing my wedding ring, like I was in all the way, and didn't cut my daughter's hair, didn't let them wear pants unless it was like snow pants or I just was completely hook line, uh and sinker, and I think the people on the Bible college campus did not know what to make of it, because the other women on campus were not doing that. The other student wives weren't doing that, um, so they could see that I was, you know, again getting extreme because I'm prone to extremes, in case you haven't noticed that I'm prone to extremes. Um, and then, uh, yeah, so that's how I ended up doing.

25:21

A deep dive into the fundamentalist rabbit hole was through the Haldeman Mennonites, and there are Haldeman Mennonites all across Canada. So that's what I did for a number of years until my husband got a pastoring job, and once we were there he said I think your head covering is putting a block between you and the other parishioners, and I want you to stop wearing it. I was so worried, oh my gosh, I cried, I wept, I was so. How could he? I'm doing this to be an example and also because the marriage wasn't naturally an easy fit. I also wore the head covering as a reminder to myself that I was to submit, because submission does not come naturally to me. I know that's a shock, and so that was my reminder every day to be careful. What I said you defer to him even when what he said was totally ridiculous.

26:28

Um, I thought that's when I especially needed to remember to submit, so, anyway, stopped wearing the head covering. And then I gotta say it was just like, and now that I'm thinking about, I'm like, oh, that's interesting the timing of these things, because that same year just a series of calamities hit our family, one thing after another. I mean my parents separated after over 40 years. My nephew killed somebody and was on the run and so the police contacted me and I had to. You know, if he showed up, I had to contact the police, all this stuff one thing after another, and the church wasn't really responding well to my husband as the pastor. There were lots of problems and lots of fires coming up, and I was the one that was having to kind of put them out. So, anyway, it was one thing after another.

27:22

We ended up leaving the church, coming back to British Columbia, and then the last thing that happened, that was really the straw that broke the church, coming back to British Columbia, and then the last thing that happened, that was really the straw that broke the camel's back is, our youngest daughter was diagnosed with a life-threatening illness, and when that happened I thought you don't know anyone who has tried harder to live an exemplary Christian life, and I just was shat upon like it was a storm, just a shit storm.

27:49

All the time, one after another. We had almost no time to recover from one calamity for the next, and bankruptcy was in there, like all these things and and so. But when our, when our girl was um diagnosed, I thought that is it. That is it. There may be a God out there somewhere, but there is no God here, where I have been looking in the Christianity that I was raised with, and in that instance, even though it was terribly painful, that's when I gave myself permission to start looking elsewhere, stick my head up outside the ground and start looking and see what, what is there. And so I gave myself permission to check out all sorts of different, interesting and crazy and fun and wacky beliefs and philosophies, and so that's what I did for a while, and then I eventually divorced my husband and my religion. And here I am.

28:46 - Sam (Host)

That's a very quick hop, skip and a jump. I do want to ask, though, with all of those you know calamities, as you put it up until the point, of what happened with your daughter, was there a part of you that was spiritualizing all of that and going like is this a result of me removing the head covering, is this a result of me not living biblically enough, or cause? I think we, you know, we spiritualize and we see some of those things as like divine punishments, so to speak, for not doing or living in the right way, and so was that something that was happening.

29:26 - Janice (Guest)

Well, definitely, uh, remember, at some points, thinking this is, this must be, the devil is trying to trick me or pull me astray. There were some things that I just straight up, yeah, spiritual warfare, some things that I straight up blamed on my husband, like that I felt he was extremely difficult and and whatever, and so some things I could blame on him, some things I didn't have, I couldn't blame on anyone, and they made no sense, um, but then of course, the, the book of Job, makes, uh, no sense, and so I got to a point where I didn't even feel like I could talk to anybody, and the marriage was unraveling quite a bit by this point, and so, as my faith was just hanging on by a thread, and finally, when I snipped that thread, I didn't even feel like I could talk to my husband about what was, what was going on. But, and we weren't going to church anymore, so I had been the one that continued dragging us all out to church, and then, eventually, the kids were like I don't want to go, don't make me go, I hate going, I don't like it there, and uh, their dad wasn't, um, interested, and I remember making myself go one last time and I'm sitting up in the balcony and singing hymns about how great God is and you know how he loves us and everything, and they're just. The words are turning to sawdust in my mouth and I'm weeping because my heart is just shattered. I'm so devastated and not understanding why all these things are happening. So then then I stopped going and, to my great surprise, nobody noticed or nobody cared, like nobody said thing.

31:13

I think there was one person who called and warned me that I was taking my kids to hell or whatever, but everybody else is like crickets, just totally silent. And I think now I think it's because Christians fear that apostasy might be contagious, whatever happened to Janice. They did not want that to, you know, happen in in their life because it's very disruptive, like huge existential crisis. I remember feeling elated when I discovered, you know, when the thought came to me that there's no hell. There's no hell. This is the best thing ever. And then immediately going oh, if there's no hell, well, maybe, maybe there's no heaven, and that was terribly painful and scary. Yeah, so it sounds like you can relate to some of those thoughts too.

32:06 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, especially because I think, as soon as you start to unravel or deconstruct, or whatever language you want to use, the concept of heaven and hell, you then uh, you then start asking the big existential questions of well, if there's no heaven and hell, like, is there god? Like, and that's like, that's the heaviest question of all of like is there a god? Because then you're not just grieving the shit you've been through, you're not just grieving the community you've lost, you're then just like, you're then grieving the god that you've had a personal relationship with for like my cosmic big brother yes, and so like, what was that unraveling like for you?

32:55 - Janice (Guest)

you know, in different points yeah, super duper, painful and confusing um and scary um, and just no, I so I have. I'm close to one of my older brothers in particular. He's the one that's closest in age to me and I knew that he had believed quite deeply but that in his 20s he let it go. And my brothers expressed like that they were glad to see me kind of loosening up on some of my beliefs. So I felt like I could talk to them and ask them some questions, and that question in particular about well, oh my God, what if there's no heaven? Like what is it? What am I even here for? What if there's no God? What is everything?

33:45

And he's like relax, he said you're going to be OK. And in big's like relax, he said you're gonna be okay. And in big brother fashion, he said I've been through this too. And he said I want you to find the kurtzgesagt uh channel on youtube and I want you to watch a video called optimistic nihilism. And he said you got to watch it all the way through. It's like a six minute video or whatever. And so I'm like hyperventilating and I watched the video and by the end of the video I was like that actually makes sense all the way through, like a six minute video or whatever.

34:07

And so I'm like hyperventilating and I watched the video and by the end of the video I was like that actually makes sense. I do actually feel a little bit better, but it's still. Even from then. It was years until I got to a point where I could say I don't actually believe any of it. And I had.

34:25

I did quite a deep dive then into in the new age community and I loved exploring all these things formerly forbidden and you know my stools and my chakras and all this stuff and it was so interesting until someone started talking about you can channel entities from different and I was like, oh God, this is just too familiar, this I can't. And now here I am again, and so then I lost that community because I didn't feel like I could stay, you know. And then it was even still another few years after that that I thought you know what I'm doing? Ok, on my own I don't need to subscribe to a belief system to subscribe to a belief system. And so I did find Dr Marlene Winnell on the internet and Marlene's Dr Winnell's book is called Leaving the Fold and I was so freaking relieved when I found this interview of her talking with someone and she made so much sense and she talked about religious trauma syndrome.

35:25

I was like what, what now? And she talked about it. It made so much sense. And she talked about religious trauma syndrome. I was like what, what now? And she talked about it. It made so much sense. So I immediately contacted her after I saw that interview, blurted everything out I'm a bit of a blurter sometimes and she was so kind and she said you know, read my book and come visit me in San Francisco. I'm holding retreats. And so that was the next big step, because I was terrified, because I don't go places by myself and do things by myself. And what if this is a cult? And what if I never am heard from again?

36:01 - Sam (Host)

Because you're terrified of any organized community. After that point, because you're like be fucked if I'm letting this happen over again, right, yeah?

36:11 - Janice (Guest)

yep, so it's terrifying, she said, made sense, yes, and and I it took it, took all my courage to go, uh, to that event. And from the minute I walked in the door and was just met by such kind, loving people who could relate, who nodded their heads in agreement, and they had come out of Jehovah's Witness and out of this and out of that like really other hardcore belief systems that they believed 100% with all their heart maybe they were even missionaries or whatever and they didn't believe it anymore. And so we're all just kind of in a huddle there, crying with each other going yeah, it really sucks, doesn't it? Yeah, it's really, it's really hard. And there was Marlene, you know, just smiling at us and reassuring us it's going to be okay. It's going to be okay. Other people have been through it before you. They're going to be through it after you.

37:07

And so my meeting with Dr Manel was super helpful and then I kept in touch with her fairly closely as I went back to school to become a registered professional counselor, and then I started addressing some of my own trauma family of origin trauma and then, because I didn't think really that I had too much, uh, religious trauma and then I started when I was doing my course. I was going, oh god, okay, yeah, this is. This does all fall into place. Um, and so then I said to Dr Winnell is anyone doing conferences about religious trauma? She said nope. I said, oh, guess what? I'm going to do it.

37:50

Never having attended a conference, not knowing anything about what has to go into putting, I was like I'll volunteer, and so that was a very big undertaking. So I launched the conference on religious trauma, also known as court, and then that was a big success and I thought, well, what's going on with sexuality and purity culture? People are screwed right up by this. And so then I founded the shameless sexuality life after purity culture conference. Then I started the divorcing religion podcast, divorcing religion YouTube channel, and I wrote my book. Then I was in the leaving Jesus documentary, and it's just one thing after another and here I am on your podcast, and so I've been leading up to this?

38:34 - Sam (Host)

yes, which is I'm going to ask because, like, like after you, like sharing all of the things that you are now involved in and after processing your own stuff, how do you not become as equally fundamental about religious trauma as you were about christianity?

38:55 - Janice (Guest)

right, yeah it. It took me a while to be willing to admit that not everybody uh is traumatized by religion, and even you can have two siblings, two people that grew up in the same family. So trauma is subjective, and whether we internalize something as traumatic has to do with a lot of other factors, and so that once I once I really recognized that that was a help in letting me step back a little bit, and then also I discovered secular humanism and that was, I feel like that was another part of my evolution just into maturity, and the more clients also that I've worked with and I run support groups and all these sorts of things, it becomes easier and easier to spot the dogmatic thinking and the black and white rigidity, the authoritarianism. And it's one thing to leave the fundamentalist religion, it's another thing entirely to leave the mindset or or be able to escape the mindset, and that typically takes people a lot longer.

40:12

And this is where I think, um, we run to uh issues in the recovery community for people recovering from religious trauma sometimes, because there can still be that dogmatic way of thinking instead of just you know what. There's enough room for everybody you. You get to process your trauma your your own way, uh, but so that that's a harder step for people to uh to get to, and also because we still have that, you know, stickler for rules and authority and we can always be scanning to see who's who's stepping out, who's not doing it the right way, um, so, yeah, took me a little while to get to the point where I'm at, which I think is far easier going. And you know, I asked my kids, thinking back to when I was first deconstructing, um, and my kids were maybe like 10 and 12 or 11 and 13 or something. My daughters and I said to them well, you know, I'm sure you've noticed that we're no longer going to church and, by the way, I'm playing the didgeridoo all the time and I've thrown dreadlocks and got some tattoos.

41:25

I'm like I can't believe. I see that mom's gone through some tattoos. I'm like I can't believe I'd say that mom's gone through some changes. And I don't. I just I don't believe the Bible the way that I once did. I no longer believe that it is literal.

41:38

And I said and how are you, my darlings, how are you doing with these changes?

41:43

Because it's, you know, pretty big and they're, like you are, so much easier, which was shocking because I thought it was like the picture of an easygoing mother.

41:57

And then you know, as, as they went on later through their teens and eventually their dad and I did separate and divorce and there was a lot of bumpiness and a lot of pain, and I ended up writing each of them a separate letter where I went through everything I could think of, that I could remember that I did that potentially impacted, that I saw going up somehow in their life and just to tell them how sorry I was and it was never my intention to harm them or hurt their dad or break up our family, and that I'm just terribly sorry and that if you ever want to ask me anything about my journey, I'll be honest with you and I'll tell you. And my kids are just so awesome. They both wrote me back separately within a few hours and said oh, mom, we just love you so much and we we see you've been through a lot and of course we forgive you, and that was very healing.

43:05 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely it doesn't happen for everybody. Yeah, yeah, absolutely oh what a beautiful moment.

43:14 - Janice (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, and so their dad and I did go our separate ways. Now, none of us are religious at all. In fact, I'm the president of my local atheist, skeptics and humanists group in our town. That's exactly right. But we've we've all stayed quite close, and so their their dad has moved away to another province now, but we have a family chat where, you know, probably every day somebody's posting something in there and and when he comes to town town, he stays with me and my new, uh, husband and like we just have a lovely friendship and in fact it's a much easier relationship because, uh, we're not irritating each other all the time. I wasn't wishing he would be holier and he's not feeling like he could never please me, right? Because now we're just friends. He can do whatever cockamamie thing he wants to, and it's not, it's not gonna impact me. I can just support him as his friend and wish him well. Yeah.

44:18 - Sam (Host)

I remember something that you said at the beginning of the episode when you were little, about not wanting to disappoint your parents, and so I'm curious what impact shifting from I mean not just shifting from Christianity to something more progressive, but shifting from Christianity to atheism, slash humanism, what like? How did that impact your relationship with your parents?

44:41 - Janice (Guest)

yes, so, um, my parents, my, my dad, died um last year and we were estranged at the time. My mom is, I think she just turned 86 or 87. So she still would consider herself a believer. You know, she hasn't been to church in years but she and she would say to me she was the opposite to my dad, who was so rules oriented and she's like, oh, eat them, eat them meat and spit out the bones. You know she's like you don't want why you got to be so much like your dad, take everything. So you know, like that.

45:20

And of course I was so much like my dad, um, so I really didn't talk much with my parents about it. Now I do remember one time when they were coming to visit and my dreadlocks were just starting to grow and so they looked pretty weird, and also I had a tattoo on my ankle and so those things were new to them and I heard them as they were coming in the entryway, my mom was whispering to my dad like in a stage whisper whatever you do, don't ask her about her hair or her tent. That's oh so. So it was just like the big elephant in the room that nobody, they're looking all over, they're not looking at me, um, but they could tell, obviously, that, um, something was going on and there were changes, uh, afoot. And finally, um, I did have a conversation. My dad my mom, like I said, was always gentle, but my dad, you know, if I was out with him somewhere and we were having a meal, he would want to stand up and pray and give thanks over the meal. So eventually I was like don't, don't do that, I'm not, I don't believe that anymore. And of course he cried and I'm like well, but okay, you can cry. I'm sorry that. I'm sorry that you're feeling hurt by this, but this is just how it is. I'm sorry that you're feeling hurt by this, but this is just how it is. And then eventually I said to him you can't, I will leave. If we are in public and you start making a spectacle of yourself in this way, I'm going to leave. And so that's what I had to do, and it was.

46:55

He got the point, you know, fairly quickly when I started following through on those things. And one time they were over for dinner and he was saying to my daughters who were in their late teens how's your relationship with Jesus and do you still love Jesus and all this. And I, I said at the dinner table, I said stop, right now I don't give you permission to be grilling my daughters, even though my kids were like mom, it's okay and I'm like it's not okay with me. So I said, dad, you can either stop and we can change the subject, or it's time for you to go. So things could get kind of heated in that way. I was never yelling or anything like that and and the relationship eventually got to such a point that I said you know what, I can't do this anymore. It doesn't mean I can never do it again, but I can't do it anymore. I'm, you know, in my 50s and I know what's good for me and what's not in this relationship is not good for me. And so for the last four or five years we were estranged.

48:04

But I did. Uh, I heard from my siblings when he was on his deathbed and I thought about it and made the choice and I went in and I sat with him, I held his hand. He couldn't, you know, he wasn't even opening his eyes or anything, but I held his hand and whispered in his ear and told him that I was there and and I loved him and it was okay for him to let go you know that sort of thing. And he, he started breathing quite a heavier like that. I knew he could tell that I was there with him. So that that is. You know what it is. I I do not regret. I don't regret it. My life looks the way that I want my life to look. It's it's sometimes messy and it doesn't look the way that I thought it would, but to me it's beautiful yeah, and it's such a huge estrangement is something that you know, people talk about and they go.

49:00 - Sam (Host)

You know how can people do that, but it's, and especially in this space. I think it is such a huge choice to make when you have been in a system that praises not having boundaries essentially like it is about, like a spent, like high control. Religion is like boundaryless relationships, and so to actually put a boundary in place with someone not just anyone, but a parent, who you are also supposed to just like honor and respect, irrespective of anything else.

49:34 - Janice (Guest)

The patriarch, huge, yeah, yeah it was. And what, what finally had brought it on. So I had gone out of my way to try and be a good daughter even in the midst of all these things. So he was divorced from my mom. So you know, he needed groceries, he needed this, he needed that and it was always just one more thing very lots of drama, high drama and and, um, what had never been uh, addressed was that he a couple of times had been uh, inappropriate with me when I was um 10 or 11.

50:10

So, just going through puberty, and I never, I never told, I never brought it up, never said anything, except I told one or two of my little girlfriends at the time and I never, never, never talked about her or anything. And then, as this pressure kept mounting with my dad and his demands were getting more and more, and one of my brothers said well, you're going to have to take over and become his power of attorney and it's just like something flipped. And I said no, because you know why. Here's what happened. And my family was dumbfounded, they couldn't believe it and I said I know it's true, because I told these people and I checked in with those girls and said I didn't just imagine this, did I? And they said no, we remember you talking about it.

50:59

And so that just was such a weight off my shoulders. But it was also very hard because then I felt like the family, I was harming the family. That was the feeling, you know. One of my siblings said why'd you wait till now? You could have told us sooner. None of us would have had to go live with them. You know, like, like.

51:19

Ben so there's the victim blaming and I said, well, I was 10. It's bad. 10 years old, it's kind of hard to always know what's the right course of action. I was just embarrassed, I didn't want to have to talk with anybody about it and so, yeah it was.

51:36 - Sam (Host)

It was difficult, but again, I I know what works for for me, I know what's healthy for me and what's not healthy, and I was done carrying that secret yeah and that uh, and that burden, so I'm equally so sorry and also so happy that you were able to come back to yourself and be able to choose what was right and good and safe for you.

52:04 - Janice (Guest)

So I love. Thank you, thank you, yes, and you know my, my mom, uh, we have quite a lovely relationship. She only lives about 15 minutes away, which is just wonderful, um, and she knows, uh, about my book. Yeah, and she was saying I want your book, I want to get a copy of your book. And I first I said absolutely not, I want your book. And I said Mom, let me put it this way, it's not going to bless you, it's not really going to bless you. And she said my daughter wrote a bestselling book and I want to have it on my shelf.

52:41

And then I was like how can you turn down that?

52:43 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, how do you say no you?

52:45 - Janice (Guest)

know I said mom, I love you. Thanks for always loving me.

52:49

And and then I, and then I gave it to her and we've never we've never talked about it, and so we just are very gentle with each other. It's going to be dead soon. I mean, she's like in her late 80s. I want her sliding into home plate with no worries. I do not want her having an existential crisis. If she's in the hospital and asks me to come sing a hymn, yes, I'll sing a hymn, like it doesn't matter to me. If it will bring comfort to her, then that's what I want to do. So we just treat each other with great kindness and always afford each other dignity.

53:30 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it's beautiful, yeah, and so I love asking this question to a lot of the people on the podcast, because I get the most diverse answers from everybody, because everybody is in such different spaces after going through what they've been through. And so what is your relationship with spirituality, or the lack of it?

53:51 - Janice (Guest)

yes, yeah, that's a great um question because there's so many diverse answers and, and I would say, what resonates with me the most now is the philosophy of naturalism. So I don't see supernatural anything in the world at this point. I see things either that are currently explained by a scientific view or that one day probably will be. So I don't, because I used to be very God of the gaps, got my air quotes going there. So if, well, if they don't understand it, if it's a mystery, it's the God of the gaps. I don't understand it, so it must be God.

54:33

Now I'm more interested in evidence and and especially since COVID and really this whole misinformation coming to the forefront. So critical thinking very important to me right now, and that's something that I wasn't trained to do to think critically. So I love to tell people to go to the website Thinking is Power. I think it's thinkingispowercom. It's a wonderful website all about helping people to think critically. So, and that's what I work with my clients and encourage them to do as well. But some people they need, they're holding on to that, you know, magical thinking, or hope, or whatever you want to call it, because they really, at that point in their life, still need it. I don't want to pull that away from somebody. People deconstruction and deconversion is very individual. I'm not going in yanking people out of the pews. I'm standing outside the church with my arms stretched out so when people are thrown out or fall out or crumble down the steps, I can catch them and say you're going to be okay. Yeah.

55:46 - Sam (Host)

Oh, that's a really beautiful imagery of like someone being thrown out and there's being someone they're waiting going hey, I'm here, you're not alone, you can do this, we can do this. Like it is the most soft landing analogy I've heard in a while.

56:02 - Janice (Guest)

That's beautiful um good, I wish someone had been there for me like I was so lonely as I was trying to figure it out because I didn't know anybody else who'd been as devout a believer, and then walked away from it and lived like I had perfectly happy um successful life because of, of course, the fear is you're going to end up in the gutter or you know whatever. So it was years between my when I stopped attending services and when I found Dr Winnell, and then, of course, I became well acquainted with Dr Daryl Ray, and Daryl founded Recovering From Religion and I understand they have an office, I think, in Australia now too. So recoveringfromreligionorg is another very helpful community and organization for people who are wondering if maybe they're even just questioning their beliefs. Maybe they haven't even left, or maybe they have left and they're looking for support. So I can't say enough good things about recovering from religion.

57:04 - Sam (Host)

It's a great group yeah, and getting unique support in this space is so important, which you know, it's part of the reason why me and you know, jane and Elise a couple of colleagues founded the Religious Trauma Collective in our part of the world, because we just were having people sit in our office and in our rooms going. You know, this other practitioner said I had to do this, or I had to do that, or they had a faith based therapist or something like that who well they had.

57:33

There was a bible verse on the wall, yeah, and so it was like there is such a need for people to land in spaces where they can ask the questions and they don't need to worry about finding the answer just yet. Just asking the question is enough for right now and not have someone prescribe them an answer and understand the unique experience that this type of trauma brings someone. And so it is. Yeah, I love chatting to people who work in this space as well, because it is such a unique experience working in the space and having lived experience, and so I'm curious how you navigate that for yourself.

58:14 - Janice (Guest)

Yeah, you know, sometimes a client is sharing something with me and it really does hit close to home, because I recognize I've had a similar experience and I think it's OK in those times for me to say as a clinician wow, that hits close to home. You know, tell me more. How did it feel for you Just making sure it's not staying on us, but that it's always about the, about the client, which is why we also, as clinicians, need to have other clinicians, people that we turn to, that we're going to, so we're not, you know, getting re-traumatized and vicarious trauma and all that kind of stuff. One thing I don't know if you ran into this, but I have, where people say, well, religious trauma, what does that just mean? A priest is harassing a child and I'm like, well, that definitely is trauma that is occurring within a religious context, but it's so much more than that. And now, finally, religious trauma and religious trauma syndrome kind of making their way into the larger consciousness. It's very exciting to be in these times where people are learning about it and the things I hear from people.

59:35

The loss of community is substantial because it's a one stop shop. All your needs are met in that religious community, the only thing that comes close is the military, because they are comrades in arms. So they're singing together, marching together, eating together, protecting each other. Otherwise life becomes this patchwork quilt you're you're grabbing from your book club friends and your cycling friends, and you're you know, and it doesn't feel the same, and it requires work, more work. So the loss of community, loss of identity, is huge. That's a hard one for people, a loss of purpose because they believe they have this cosmic, divine purpose, and it can be a dangerous time when people lose that. So encouraging people that we must mature from meaning seekers into meaning makers Now you're the one that gets to decide. And of course, then the sexuality piece of it, because there can be so much shame from purity culture. So those are the main things that I find people are coming to me and struggling with and wanting help with.

:: 00:45

Yeah, which is a nice transition into. I love when nice transitions happen but, I don't need to make it up on the spot into what I always finish these episodes with, which is just some encouragement for listeners who might be in the thick of everything that you just described, or they might be the very beginning of it, or 30 years down the track, but what would you say to someone who feels like they are fresh in this?

:: 01:14

space. You're not alone. You're in very, very good company. Like I said before, other people have come before you who've had these, you know, had to meet these struggles, and there will be people after you as well, because it's part of the human condition. So reach out to a qualified secular therapist, someone who will listen and, like you said, not be prescribing that you have to do it like this and like this, but you need someone that can listen and provide space for you to unpack these things.

:: 01:55

And life is like a buffet table. So there are all these delectable dishes which are experiences set out before us. Religious people will starve to death at that table because they don't let themselves eat. So you are allowed to take a bite of every dish on the table, as long as you're not breaking the law of the land or harming another person. That's a pretty big amount of space that you can try. You're allowed to be free, and freedom can be terrifying, but it also is so wonderful. So I invite you just to keep going. Just take one step after another and be courageous and be curious.

:: 02:38

Yeah, curiosity is my favorite thing now. Curious yeah, curiosity is my favorite thing now. It is. I think curiosity is the key to to so many different spaces, so I love that. That's the thing that you ended on. I love that. Thank you so much for joining me and thank you for all of the work that you've done in this space as well. It is, there is a real shift happening and it is exciting to be a part of it, and I love chatting with people who are on the other side of the world, who are doing similar things to us over here and yet completely different cultural landscapes, and yet we have so much in common Not the things that we would love to have in common, but yet it's still still commonality yes, yes, absolutely, and and I'd I'd love to come back and um join you another time if you're interested.

:: 03:32

One of the things we didn't talk about was, um, how my sister came to live with us and she is a First Nations person. So we have some similarities in Canada, unfortunately, between how we've treated our First Nations people and how First Nations people in your part of the world have been treated, and, of course, she ended up being placed in our evangelical white family. So that's a whole additional piece and I I'm so fortunate to still have her, uh, in my life and call her my sister and she calls me her sister, so it's a painful, but a powerful story yeah, absolutely well.

:: 04:14

Thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate your time and your energy and your vulnerability in. You know I understand how taxing it is to share our stories. Time and your energy and your vulnerability in you know I understand how taxing it is to share our stories time and time again, so I'm so appreciative of you joining me.

:: 04:28

My pleasure, and if people want to find out more about my work, they can go to divorcingreligioncom. My book is Divorcing Religion a Memoir and Survival Handbook, and my YouTube channel is also called Divorcing Religion. And to you I say, which means thank you in the Siyyakh language.

:: 04:47

Beautiful, and all of that will be in the show notes as well, so people can easily go wherever they would like to go and to connect with you in all of the variety of different ways. So thank you yes, thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.