The One Moving From Shame To Self-Compassion

Sam: 00:00:06

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

FOREIGN I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced, and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface. Welcome. Erica, thanks for joining me.

Erica: 00:01:29

Thank you so much for having me, Sam. It's an absolute pleasure.

Sam: 00:01:33

I. This is not your first time on the podcast, is it?

Erica: 00:01:38

It's certainly not our first time talking, but is it my first time on the podcast? No.

Sam: 00:01:41

You remember. I love this. I love that this is how we're starting, because I came on with Liz. Yeah.

Erica: 00:01:50

Yes, I remember.

Sam: 00:01:52

Yes, it was. I remember it was a bit of a time. So, yes, we pit.

But I guess I wanted to start with some context that people might recognize you already from the episode that we did with Liz Malani as well, around religious trauma in the body. But you are not here in a professional context. You are here to show your story, which I'm excited about.

But for some context, where in the world are you?

Erica: 00:02:18

At the moment, I am in Melbourne, where I live.

Sam: 00:02:22

Beautiful. I say beautiful, but I imagine it is the overcast, rainy, dreary, cold weather that it probably is here.

Erica: 00:02:30

Yeah, it is. It's freezing and it's pouring with. Well, it's not raining right now, but it's been pouring. Yeah.

Sam: 00:02:35

Winter in Australia. Okay. I love to start these episodes with a vague question.

It gives absolutely zero context and you get to start wherever you like, which is, where does your story start?

Erica: 00:02:52

Oh, where does my story start? I think my story starts probably at Beth.

Well, probably at conception, actually, let's be honest, I was saying to you before we hit record that I'm not really sure how to tell my story because it started somewhere that probably has only become very recently apparent.

So I will start with where it started in terms of my past awareness of my religious trauma, which really started probably when I was, you know, a very little girl, like five, six years old. I was raised in a very religious household.

My parents were, well, my mother really was a born again Christian, so she came to Christianity when she was probably in her early 30s, I think, or late 20s. And she was all in. She was very, very much all in. And my understanding, we lived in Canada, so I'm, I'm actually from Canada.

Sam: 00:03:54

Why did you not know that?

Erica: 00:03:56

Yeah, so I was born, born and raised in Canada, still retain citizenship. I'm, I'm Jewel. And we moved here when I was six. So which is relevant actually to, to all of it.

But back in Canada, my understanding is that we were in like Pentecostal, evangelical sort of spaces. I don't have a lot of memory of that. Probably the only memory I really have is of losing one of my teddy bears at church and never finding it again.

But I do know that it was a pretty intense space that we were in. It was, you know, lots of hands on healing and things like that.

So I don't remember it consciously, but I certainly have a pretty visceral reaction when I see things like that now and then.

When we moved to Australia when I was six, my family kind of struggled to figure out where they fit here in lots of different ways, but certainly also with a church. But we did go to a church for a really long time. We went to a Baptist church.

And I remember that very clearly because, you know, I was sort of there from. I guess I wouldn't have been six because we, we moved a little bit, but you know, kind of seven, eight years old probably until I was 18 and I left.

For me, I was very much raised with the kind of fearful version of a God, very much hellfire and brimstone style, which was echoed in the church spaces that I was in. Very, very strict. Lots of shame. Yeah.

And that's probably, I don't, I don't know how far you want me to go into that, but that's where it starts, I guess, is with these memories of kind of religion being just this given in our family. There were no other dissenting voices for sure. And it being a very hard kind of line and a very fear oriented existence. Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:07

Yeah.

Erica: 00:06:07

Does that answer that question?

Sam: 00:06:08

Yeah, yeah. I mean, what was that like for you to live within that system? Like, how did it feel as a kid to be.

I've started to talk about fear, guilt, and shame as the real holy trinity of we all received. But, like, what was that like for you to sort of be in that space?

Erica: 00:06:28

I never liked it, to be honest. But I do remember being a real. Like a bit of a. Actually, to be honest, outside of that space.

Like, I was the kid at school who would shame other people. I would tell them the truth about things, the truth about things that they didn't want to hear.

And I remember just feeling like I didn't belong in either space. So I never really felt like I belonged in the church. I had this sort of sense that things weren't as they seemed.

And I remember that for as a lot, like, as far as from the earliest days, I remember thinking, I don't really like it here, but kind of I had to go. And I used to be bribed into going by getting a Happy Meal on the way home from McDonald's and a pack of. Do you remember what were they called?

Runts, I think they were called. And they were like little fruit candies. No, like, it was like a gobstopper box, but they were called Runs, I think.

And they were like a little banana, little apple, little orange. They were the best. So I was bribed into going to church regularly by getting a pack of Runts and then a Happy Meal on the way home.

But I never really felt like I fit in there. And I never felt like I fit in at school either.

And so I had this disconnect, I guess, where I didn't feel like I connected with the people in the church and my peers, but I spent a lot of time with them because they were safe people. But I didn't feel like I fit in at school either. And as an adult, I've recently been diagnosed autistic.

So that kind of plays into that a little bit, I'm sure. But my experience was. Honestly, when I think about it, I'm like, oh, my God. My experience mostly was one of just constantly feeling judged. Yeah.

And watched. So I had this feeling that not only was I being watched, obviously, by my parents, and, you know, the rules were pretty strict.

I was being watched by the congregation. And then even in the privacy of my own spaces, in my own head, I was also being watched. And so I developed.

And again, I don't know how much of this is autism. I don't know how much of this is religious trauma. I don't know.

You know, there's another part to my story that will make shed some light on this as well, but there was this level of. I wouldn't call it paranoia, but it was certainly like, deep anxiety. I've been an anxious person my whole life.

So, yeah, it was just a really strange space. And there was a lot of. A lot of, like I said, shame.

And so I think I learned really not to trust myself very much and to really kind of have this deep seated sense of guilt pretty much about everything that I did. Yeah. So that wasn't great. That didn't. That didn't pan out too well for the first, you know, 25 or so years of my life.

Sam: 00:09:22

For sure. Yeah, it's. I mean, church is such a weird place because, like, it can bring such comfort for some people and good memories for.

For some and then others, it just is like something is not right here.

Was there any part of you that enjoyed church that connected to the concept of church and God, or was it really just like, I'm just playing a role, going through the motions, trying to, like, not have to do more than this than I have to?

Erica: 00:09:57

That's a good question. I think, like I said, the whole concept. I'm going to sort of answer your question in a roundabout way. The concept of God was all I knew. Right.

And so the, I, the, The idea that there would be any other way to believe anything was really foreign to me. I didn't, you know, I was not exposed to any other way of thinking. Yeah. So church felt like. When I think about it, there were certain things I liked.

There was like, a boy I had a crush on, so I liked that. My best friend went to my church as well. There were elements of the social stuff that I enjoyed, but I've never really enjoyed socializing that much.

So, you know, it's like. Yeah, but what I was more aware of was the disconnect between who people said they were and who I felt them to be. And I've always.

I think one of my special interests has always been understanding people. And so I take a very serious approach to understanding humans.

And I think I was really aware of that from a very young age of like, they're saying something, but I'm getting a different vibe from how they behave. Like their energy, something doesn't feel like it matches up. And I really sensed that with my peers.

So there was sort of a group of peers that I was like, I just don't think that you are as like, Good. As you say you are. And so, like I said, I always felt quite disconnected from that.

And so my sister, if she was sitting beside me, she would say, you love. You wanted to get there early because you wanted to sit next to your friends and like, you wanted to go to church.

And I was definitely seeking connection. I was definitely seeking community. And because I had so much fear of kind of non Christians and, And how evil they might be, which truly was.

Was how it was messaged. It felt like that was the. The safe place to develop relationships. But none of them lasted. Yeah, truly.

So, no, I think, if I'm being completely honest, I never felt comfortable there. Yeah. But I've never felt particularly comfortable in most spaces. So it's like, it is hard to. It is hard to untangle what's.

What, you know, I. I found.

Sam: 00:12:26

I don't.

Erica: 00:12:26

I can't remember if I've thrown them out, but I found an old journal from when I was a teenager.

Sam: 00:12:30

Yeah.

Erica: 00:12:31

And I used to be like a very angsty, a little bit emo, you know, like, wrote really heartbreaking poetry. And I remembered that I'd written this poem and I found it, and it was about like a serpent and kind of this. It was essentially. It was like, you're.

This is who you say you are, but I can kind of see the serpent inside. Like this sort of sense of people just not being who. Who they said they were.

And interestingly, maybe 18 months, two years ago, I went back to that church. I may have had a panic attack on the way in. Like, I really was not okay.

And it was really interesting how difficult it was to sit there and be in that space and see all the same people that I saw when I was there. Yeah. Years ago. So I would say that, no, I never really felt quite right there.

You know, I'm sure the reasons for that are many and varied and, and not all on the church. But that's the other thing. I've always had a very respectful view of other people's, you know, desire to be in the church and religion.

And so I know the first time we spoke, I was like, I'm nervous to talk about this because I don't want to say that, you know, it's all bad or that if you are. If you have a different opinion to me that I have an opinion about that, I don't really care. But yeah, it's. It's that sense of.

I know how important those spaces are for a lot of people, and not all of them are injurious. You Know, but my experiences were, were not great.

Sam: 00:14:17

Yeah, I, I remember that. And I remember resisting doing this very podcast for like a good 18 months.

And I was back and forth with my therapist going, there is no say I'm doing this. Like it is not happening. And yet now I sort of go.

I actually think by talking about this stuff, it allows the good that people get out of faith systems and church spaces to actually be the baseline and not that the harm is the baseline. And I think far more people are being harmed in these spaces than are being comforted.

But by calling out the harm that actually we might be able to make these spaces far more safer for the people that actually desire them and want to be there as well. So. But I love the way that you just spoke around that.

And as I took it, I was like, also, like, even as a kid, you had a really good radar, basically. Like, that's essentially what we're talking about. Yeah. And so I love that. It's great.

Erica: 00:15:22

I think I was so aware of, like. And I had a recent experience with this as well. I had a.

Like, I've always just been aware of when somebody's saying something, but it doesn't match their energy or it doesn't match their intention or it doesn't match their body language. And I think it's because it's something that I've. I've really paid attention to. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:46

So I haven't. I was about to ask a question and then I was like, oh, I haven't actually used this phrase for a really long time.

But as you were talking about like the disconnect with church and God during that time, do you ever feel like, whilst you spent 18 years of your life in this place, do you ever feel like you actually had a relationship in inverted commas with God? Oh, because that's the goal. Right. Like, that's the goal is to have this personal relationship with God.

Erica: 00:16:14

I don't think I had a personal one. No. I prayed a lot though. I remember that was one of the really tricky things when I left the church was that I would.

My fear response was often to be to pray, you know, and to just sort of do that as a bit of a knee jerk reaction to be like, I'm scared, please protect me. But like I said, my, my experience of God was so fearful that I never really experienced the benevolence or the kindness. Yeah. That wasn't really how.

And I don't know that it wasn't. I don't know that it wasn't in the messaging. But it was certainly never the way it landed for me because the fear was so prominent.

And so I was more probably aware of how disappointing I was, if that makes sense. Even though I was actually a very, like, good girl, like, I really did nothing wrong. I was like, textbook good girl.

But I was very aware of like the impurity on the inside. Right. And so I think my any personal relationship was one that I didn't get it.

I didn't know what I was like, I didn't know what I was supposed to be listening for. I didn't know what I was supposed to be feeling.

And I remember when I was a teenager, like a young teenager, my whole peer group were getting baptized and I just couldn't do it. And I was like, everybody's doing it.

Like, it's a bit weird that I'm the only one sitting in the audience or like sitting in the congregation, not up there being baptized, but I just could not bring myself to do it. And that, I think was a really pivotal moment of going, I don't think I'm in this. Like, I don't think this is for me.

But my mum was heavily involved in the church. You know, she would, she would preach, she worked in Christian religious education in schools when that was still a thing.

She wrote the curriculum for that for a while. You know, we prayed before dinner. Like, it was, it was everything, it was my whole, whole existence at home. Yeah.

So it was kind of hard to, like, admit, like, I don't think this is for me. I don't think I'm bought in. Yeah. Had I been messaged things differently, I don't know if that would have been different. I'm not sure.

But, you know, I ended up marrying an atheist, so that probably changed things a little bit. But, you know, and it's interesting, like, I'm a yoga teacher. I've been a yoga teacher for 15 years. And I remember those spaces being really similar.

I was like, jeepers. I've just found myself in the same sorts of environments but with a different.

Sam: 00:18:58

Different spin on it.

Erica: 00:19:00

Right.

Sam: 00:19:00

Yeah.

Erica: 00:19:01

So I don't, I don't even think of it as necessarily being just, just a religious thing, but these, I guess, organized spaces where there are demands placed on your behavior that are, yeah, just kind of from someone else. I, I, I'm a very morally, you know, I have a very strong moral compass.

And so I always found it a little bit confusing of like, why do we need to be told these things? You know?

Sam: 00:19:30

Yeah, it's the complete diversion of Authority to someone else or to a different.

To a divine being or to a system or to a structure of rules that I think a lot of people pull away from, as opposed to the faith or the belief system or. Or anything like that.

Erica: 00:19:49

Yeah.

Sam: 00:19:50

When you chose not to be baptized, my automatic reaction was to go, if this was your bubble, were you then treated differently because you didn't do the thing that you were supposed to do?

Erica: 00:20:04

I don't really remember. I. I never really was in. I think that's the thing. Right.

I had one best friend who did get baptized and she was in that space, but I was on the outer with everybody else. Nobody. My experience of it was that nobody liked me. I don't know if that's true because I didn't think anyone liked me ever, because autistic.

But I really didn't feel included in the spaces at all. So if I was ousted, it wasn't. It didn't feel any different. I mean, I did have friends.

It sounds a little dramatic to say it like that, but I just always felt like I was on the periphery. Like I just didn't feel like I was in. And I think it was because I didn't subscribe quite the same way to the things that. That they did.

And, you know, I saw them say one thing and do another and was like, I'm so confused about how we're supposed to behave here. Like, this doesn't make any sense. So. Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember anything outwardly.

I do remember being really nervous to tell my parents that I wasn't going to, but they actually were fine. So. Yeah.

Sam: 00:21:13

Okay. On a scale of. Of course to like. Of course. How much did purity culture you up in teenagehood?

Erica: 00:21:23

I forgot the scale, but a hundred percent.

Sam: 00:21:26

Of course. To really. Of course. Basically because I've not met anyone who lived through purity culture and still loved it, but I mean, I'm sure they exist.

They're just not people who are coming on my podcast. Yeah, but what was that experience like for you?

Because, I mean, and obviously we have the language of being autistic now, but I imagine that that had a role in terms of how you're absorbing that purity based messaging as well during that window of time.

Erica: 00:22:00

Oh, gosh. Yeah. I think in terms of. In terms of being impacted by religious trauma, that was probably the most impactful.

That's that sense of shame around anything related to sex. Yeah, it was bad. And I think I remember being fed those messages from such a young age. Yeah, I even remember.

So, like, I didn't get my first boyfriend until I was 16. Didn't have my first kiss till I was 16. I was so ashamed that I wanted to have a boyfriend. So ashamed. Yeah.

Even when I had like crushes on boys, I was just so ashamed of it. I would not really talk about it. I felt like I was just an awful person. But I also had the idea in my head that whoever I dated, I had to marry. Yeah.

So that wasn't great as a 16 year old. Like, you know, you don't really usually land on necessarily the right person straight away. Actually get married very young though, and.

And that was part of purity culture. And that makes me really sad in hindsight. I mean, I'm still married to, to my husband and we have a wonderful relationship.

He's just a wonderful person and we've been really lucky to grow together over that time. But we did get married partly because of the messaging that I had received as a child.

And I look at it now and I Look, I was 21 when I got married, 19 when I got engaged, and I look at 19 and 21 year olds now and I'm like, you're literally a child. Yeah, you're literally a child. And it makes me sad to think that I felt like I didn't have a choice. Like, I really didn't feel like I had a choice.

But like I said, beautiful man. I loved him dearly. I really wanted to marry him. Like, it worked out just fine. Yeah.

But there is a part of me that's like, that's a bit, that's kind of messed up that that was sort of the only path that seemed to be available to me now as an adult, I can see that that wasn't true. But at the time I certainly didn't recognize that. So, yeah, I had, I held a lot of shame. It's.

It really affected our marriage for a really long time, particularly in those early years. Again, some of that is probably because I'm autistic and so sometimes just like, seriously, don't fucking touch me.

Sam: 00:24:18

Yeah.

Erica: 00:24:21

You know, but so much of it was just guilt and shame and feeling so ashamed of things like even simple things like how to use a tampon, how to, you know, groom yourself. Like, all of it was just so shameful.

And I remember meeting two girls who are now really, really good friends and the way they just talked about sex and the way they talked about boys and the way they talked about your periods and going to the toilet and all these things that I was just like, holy shit, can we talk about that. Like we were allowed to talk about that and that was really eye opening for me to be in spaces where people were open and it was just not a big deal.

And so, yeah, to say that it messed me up for, for a good amount of time would be an understatement. It was pretty awful. I, I had, yeah, a lot of therapy to get to a better place. And I would say, you know, I'm 42 now.

It probably wasn't until after I had kids and my kids are like 13 and 11. Yeah, that was sort of when I felt a little bit more like. I think I'm. I think I might have gotten beyond that, but it really took a very long time.

Sam: 00:25:33

Yeah, I think purity culture trauma is its own real subsect of religious trauma. It is just in the same way that I speak about like, like hell phobia is its own sort of subsect within religious trauma.

Purity culture is just so like damaging and far reaching depending on like how strong of a flavor and the type of flavor of purity culture that you got as a teenager as well.

Like whether it was just about sex or whether it was around like you didn't get sex education or oh, I sat out and just like, yeah, like you don't even know your own anatomy and like all of that sort of thing. So it's. I think it depends on the flavor of purity culture and the strength of it that people received.

Erica: 00:26:22

You know, it was interesting. I sat out of pure. I sat out of purity culture. If only that, out of that, out of sex ed.

On my request though, because I was so embarrassed and so ashamed. I was like, I can't possibly sit through this. And so of course that was well and truly supported by my parents.

But it means, it meant that I really didn't have an understanding of how things worked, which really wasn't, wasn't great.

Sam: 00:26:47

So I mean it's, I mean it's not even just like when we talk about purity culture, everybody just seems to think that it's about sex.

But like you said, it's not just about sex is about just even understanding how your own body works and what is, you know, healthy and what is, you know, abnormal and things that you should pay attention to because they might actually be signs of health concerns and like all this sort of thing because there is just no reproductive or sex or health education that's happening because it's just in inverted commas too risky. Right. Which is insanity. But the impact that that has ongoing, I think is just something that I think A lot of people don't necessarily realize.

Were you also being taught in terms of purity culture that, you know, I talk about it being synonymous with like rape culture and diet culture. Was that intersection happening for you as well?

Erica: 00:27:49

Oh, that's an interesting question. The only way I know how to answer that is there was a lot of fear based messaging around everything. So I was really afraid of being, yeah.

Sam: 00:28:04

Raped.

Erica: 00:28:04

I was really afraid of being kidnapped. I was really afraid of things that now I'm like, those things don't really.

Like they happen, but not to the extent that I, I mean they absolutely happen, but I was afraid of like literally everyone and everything. So yes, I guess in some ways it was. Yeah, that's a really interesting question.

Sam: 00:28:30

Were you being taught that like you were responsible for like responsible thoughts and like it was always, it's always the woman's fault in those situations? Like yes, like any skin causes men to sin kind of mentality? Like that kind of.

Erica: 00:28:48

Yeah, absolutely. That was definitely message to me. Probably more in my home than anything else.

Like I remember thinking that I had to be really careful of what I wore. And yeah, God, I was just, and my, my nickname at school was the fun police. Oh yeah, that gives you a little bit of a idea again.

You know, it's probably is part of my personality that sometimes I'm like, there's rules, we should follow the rules. And I think that was part of it. Right. Like I'm a very. And I think being neurodivergent rules are kind of important to me. I, I, I need my guidelines.

It's like not a great combination to sort of be so rule oriented and for the rules to be so harmful. But yeah, I, God, I remember just judging other people based on what they wore too because it was like, you know.

Yeah, you're, you're asking for it like such a terrible thing to think about. But yeah, that was definitely in there. I don't know if I would have even put two and two together there. But yeah, that was definitely part of it.

Sam: 00:30:00

Yeah, I think, I mean I think you are primed in that location and in that organization, like organized religion type of space to always think that you are in the right though. Like it's that moral superiority. We have the truth. So of course it's my job to tell you that you are in the wrong, which is like insane.

Like we say it now and we go like it's the mental gymnastics that we do to make it make sense at the time. But like when you think that you have, you Know the truth or at least the right way of doing life.

Even if you don't necessarily believe the belief system. There is this mentality that at least you have the right way of doing life that keeps people safe and healthy and all. Whatever, insert word there.

Of course you have that moral superiority. Superiority to feel like you can tell people what to do and how to act.

Erica: 00:31:00

Yeah, well, I mean, I was afraid of going to hell. At the end of the day, that was a big part of it.

Sam: 00:31:07

And in turn, probably afraid of everybody else going to hell also, because I.

Erica: 00:31:10

Was like, some of these people are really good people. But yeah, you know, so. Yeah, I think. Yeah. Oh my gosh, it's. It's interesting to. It's interesting to look back on for sure. Yeah.

Sam: 00:31:22

I'm curious because.

And I'm desperate for someone to do some research on religious trauma and high control religion and neurodivergence because I just think that there is so many links there. So if anybody is a researcher listening, please do something, because I'll do something.

But I'm curious why you feel like the part of you that loved structure and loved rules didn't love the structure and rules that that space gave you.

Because I like, I hear the opposite in that so many autistic people loved church spaces because it gave them the security, stability and structure that they craved. But you didn't love that. But you still loved all of the other things, just not that in that environment.

Erica: 00:32:05

Yeah. I think for me it came down to the incongruence. It was. It was that I was being told one thing and I saw something else. Yeah.

Plus I think, Yeah, I almost want to say it's that simple for me. I really just. I didn't believe that what I was seeing was what they were telling me I should see.

So I've also been in workplaces that on the surface appear to be great places. You know, government organizations, not for profit organizations.

And I had to leave because I didn't think that they were ethically performing the way that I thought they should. And so for me, I think my sort of flavor of autism is very much like it has to match my sense of almost.

I would say it's almost a bit more ethical than it is anything else. Values. It's probably more values. And I think that's what it was.

I would never have had the language for it at the time, but I was very aware of the fact that whatever my unidentified values were, they did not match with where I was.

Sam: 00:33:22

Because.

Erica: 00:33:22

I think I was even at that Age. So aware of the fact that everything was just very surface level, you know.

Sam: 00:33:30

Yeah, yeah. Because I was about to ask, and we've. You've obviously not brought this up yet, but how much of that do you think was being autistic?

And how much of it was your high sensitivity just going like, everybody is just.

Erica: 00:33:41

Just.

Sam: 00:33:42

Just putting on a mask. It's like keeping up with the Joneses, but church style.

Erica: 00:33:46

Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it. And I think I was just about to say I am super, super highly sensitive, and I think my sensitivity is particularly to that.

Yeah, like I said, I've. I have a very strong radar, but I think it comes from studying people, truly. And so I think it was that.

I cannot ignore that when I think I'm sort of being told one thing, but something else is happening behind the scenes, I cannot deal with it. And so I think it was that. And, you know, even from a sensory point of view, like, I didn't. I didn't like how noisy it was.

I didn't like how busy it was. I didn't like how. Yeah, just overstimulating it was. There was a lot about it I didn't like from a. Yeah, just from that point of view.

And, you know, like, if a rule doesn't make sense to you, that's really hard to. To sort of navigate. And I think none of it really made sense. Yeah, none of it really made sense.

And I. I had this really interesting thing where I felt like I always had to be so honest. And, I mean, I am a very honest person, so that was fine.

But it also meant that there was sort of no way to not speak up, I guess, outside of that space. And I think I just always felt like I was holding my tongue. I don't know. It was. Yeah. I don't know how to articulate what.

Sam: 00:35:15

I'm thinking, but, yeah, I mean. And were you also. Because obviously, it also just depends on, like, I'm conscious. It depends on the flavor of baptism.

Baptist church that you're in as well. But were you also the wrong gender to be speaking up as well in those spaces? Typically, like, you know, it is.

You are allowed to have an opinion and ask questions if you are a boy growing up in the church because, like, potentially they're going to be leaders. But, you know, typically women are designed to be quiet and. And make. Emma, don't. Don't rock the boat. Be gentle and sweet, spirited.

Erica: 00:35:49

Yeah, that's true. And I never would have asked questions to anyone at the church, to be honest.

It would have been my parents that I would have asked questions too and I didn't even think I could do that. So yeah, I, I, it's, and I was too young. I think that was probably part of it. Right. I was just too young. Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 00:36:10

So at 18 you left. What was, how did that happen? Was it a very simple, easy choice? Was there any like confrontation, tension attached to it?

Erica: 00:36:22

I don't remember there being any confrontation or tension but I'm sure there was that I wasn't aware of. I don't really remember leaving, I just remember not going back.

And in part it was my husband just sort of, he, he was never involved in the church and he came along a couple of times and was like, this is really strange because he grew up in a very non religious home. And I love when people who have.

Sam: 00:36:50

Never really been in church find out the stories and go back or go into churches and hear things and they're like, oh that, that's like batshit crazy.

Erica: 00:37:00

He was just like what, what is, what is this? So I remember we got married by the minister from that church who actually was a lovely guy. That was sort of our compromise.

I was like, we can't, we're not praying, we're not doing this, we're not doing that. But we can be married by the minister. Didn't want to get married in a church or anything like that.

But yeah, I don't remember there being any tension but I'm certain that there was dis. Disappointment from my parents, particularly my mum. They would have, she would have definitely been disappointed. But we didn't ever talk about it.

Sam: 00:37:31

Right. Yeah, good old hiding conversations.

Erica: 00:37:34

Love that. Yeah. Well, interestingly I, I had to.

My mum passed away this year and before she passed away and before a whole bunch of other things happened which we may touch on, I was sorting through some of her books and I found a book that was quite titled Praying for your adult children.

And it was really interesting because I think that had I come across that book and been sort of in a church environment where it was based on love and acceptance and things like that that I might have felt really touched by that.

But I felt very judged and it was a really interesting moment to uncover that and be like, oh, I think I've been disappointing, you know, in terms of my faith. And I, and I know that that was, that was true. I had to set some boundaries around like giving my kids religious relate, you know, religious things.

Yeah. And that was really hard. So I don't remember there being tension when I left. But there certainly was tensions after, and it was interesting.

Like, none of the relationships that I had in that space, it was like. I mean, I guess it was the early days of mobile phones and social media didn't exist yet.

But, I mean, I literally never talked to them again, with the exception of one. And so that was interesting, too. I thought that was very telling, that I disappeared and nobody said a word. Yeah. So, yeah.

Sam: 00:38:58

Did that bother you, or were you quite okay with that at the time?

Erica: 00:39:02

It didn't bother me. I think I still saw a few of the people kind of in group social situations.

But no, I mean, like, when I left, I must have just been getting engaged, and, you know, I was going to uni, and I was doing all sorts of things, so I was pretty distracted. So, no, I don't remember it bothering me that much.

Sam: 00:39:24

Yeah, I realized that we completely glossed over the purity culture healing part. So I want to, like, slightly rewind for a minute.

And what was that process like for you to try and start unlearning some of those messages, but also start developing some sort of, like, actual healthy relationship with your body?

Erica: 00:39:50

A lot of it wasn't a conscious. Yeah, Like, a lot of it. I wouldn't be able to tell you, well, I did this, this, this, and this.

But I think a lot of it came down to who I associated with as a older teen, as someone in their 20s, and even in my 30s. I think a lot of it came down to watching, you know, kind of like, real life around me and being like, oh, they're not ashamed. They're not. Not.

They're not feeling guilty about, you know, having a body. And, you know, it was. It was really through observation, I think, more than anything.

And interestingly, like I said, having my children was very healing. Yeah. Because I think in that moment, because that was part of it. Right. Like, the.

The messaging of the purity culture was, like, sexist to have children. Right. That's the goal. That's the whole point. And that was very, very clearly messaged to me from a very young age.

Like, the purpose of having sex is to have a baby. And so I was married for a really long time before we had kids, because I got married at 21, and I didn't have my first child until I was 29.

And something about having kids and just realizing, like, every. Everybody comes into the world through a woman's body. Yeah, how can this be wrong? Yeah, how can this be wrong? This doesn't make any sense.

And so there was something about the power of the female body that just transformed that for me. Yeah. And I think, I think there was a lot of.

There was a lot of work, but I don't know, I can't consciously think of, like, what I specifically did, but there was a lot of work around recognizing that I'm not being watched 24 7, that my thoughts actually aren't audible to anyone, that what goes on behind closed doors isn't viewable by anyone. So there was something in, in that, for me, of, of that sort of picking apart of like, is this true?

Like, you know, and I think it was because I just took everything that I was told on face value, which turned out to be a bad idea, which, you know, and I. And I think that's probably like, we should talk about that a little bit.

But it's, it was healing that, like, I saw therapists and stuff, but even then I was really ashamed to bring up the purity culture stuff. I didn't know how to talk about it. I didn't know how to talk about sex in general. And so that was.

It happened, but it was very slow and it was certainly part of it, but it wasn't all of it. Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 00:42:43

I mean, honestly, the therapist then probably wouldn't have even known what to do with it or had language for it or understood it anyway, like, unless you were lucky enough to land with somebody who actually had language for that type of thing.

But I mean, I'm still dealing with therapists who don't think religious trauma is a thing, let alone, you know, understanding the ramifications and the consequences of, of purity culture. So.

Yeah, and, you know, sometimes it does far more harm than good sharing some of that stuff with therapists who don't have understanding of that and who potentially can dismiss and, and invalidate it as well, particularly if, like, you yourself don't necessarily even have the language at the time to, to understand that. Yeah.

Erica: 00:43:30

And I think it's. It's conflated by the fact that, you know, and this parallels again with the thing I keep alluding to, but it kind of.

I think it's compounded by the fact that there are certain people and organizations where if those relationships break down or if there is a speaking out against them, that that is seen as the problem. Right. Like that you become the, the perpetrator of the, the violence, for want of a better term, when you are actually the victim.

And I've seen that play out for sure.

And I think that's why I, and you know, actually just saying that I'm like Oh, that's why I was so nervous to talk to you the first time, because there was that sense of like, you know, but you. Like, I don't even know how to articulate it where it's like, but they do so much good. But they do this really well.

But, you know, your parents loved you, but this, but that. You know, all of those buts that you're like, you're not listening. You're not listening. Because those things can be true and there can be trauma.

Sam: 00:44:41

Yes.

Erica: 00:44:42

So it's. And I think that's the really interesting thing with trauma in general. Right.

Whether it's religious or of any other sort of type, there is this difficulty that people have, therapists and lay people alike, where it's like, it's hard to hold the two things at the same time. Yeah. And it can make it very hard for victims to speak up.

Sam: 00:45:10

Yeah. I mean, and it.

Particularly in regards to religious trauma, I will often say to people, it's hard for you to sit with the fact and the duality of being able to have good memories and good situations and have had good relationships and still have been traumatized and living presently with trauma because you have been grow. You have grown up in a binary system where it is one or the other, that you can't have both.

In those spaces, a lot of the time it's either this or that. You are in, you're out, it's good or bad, saved, unsaved. There is all this binary language.

So of course, you leave thinking that everything works like that. But actually being able to hold the duality of not everything is. That is all good or bad. And.

Erica: 00:46:00

And I think we're so used to a trauma conversation where there's a perpetrator and a victim.

Sam: 00:46:07

Yeah.

Erica: 00:46:07

And there's an act of violence or something. And. And it's very clear what the. What the trauma was. Whereas I think when you speak of religious trauma and.

And other complex types of trauma, there isn't a clear this happened and that happened, and that was the trauma. It's like, you know, my. My trauma, if I want to sort of talk about, like, the. The religious element of that, that spanned 18 years. Yeah.

There was no one thing that was that like a traumatic moment. I didn't. I wasn't abused. I wasn't, you know, there was nothing like that that happened. And yet I was left with the shame and the guilt and.

And the, you know, inability to step foot into a church. Even, like I. I even find it difficult to go.

We went on a trip A couple of years ago, and we were in Coober Pedy, and there was, like, an underground church, and I was like, I don't want to go. And my girlfriend was like, it's so beautiful, though. And I'm like, I don't. I don't want to go. I can't. I can't go to spaces like that.

And that was interesting for me to recognize, you know, that was only two years ago. And, you know, I've been asked to be a godmother before, and that was a whole thing. Like, it was. It's just.

It's just has impact that you just can't understand. So I think.

Yeah, I love that, that we got to talk about this, because I think it's really important for people to hear that there can be all the good and lots of. And we have to listen to people when they say it was harmful.

Sam: 00:47:33

Yeah, absolutely. And I.

And talking about the harm that happens in these spaces, it doesn't discount the harm, the good that happens in spaces as well, and the good that it can provide in people's lives.

And I mean, so many of the people that I've spoken to on this podcast will have said that in many ways, church saved them, both emotionally and literally.

And so you can sit with the fact that some people are talking to me today because of churches and because of those spaces, and yet they're also talking to me because they've been traumatized as by them also. And we can hold space for both of those things at the same time.

Erica: 00:48:13

Yeah.

Sam: 00:48:14

Okay, let's get to the thing that you keep alluding to, because I'm sure people are sitting here going, okay, Erica, come on, Come on. What are we talking about? About? So. And I think, like you said, it will. It casts a new light on some of the things that you've been talking about. So.

Yeah.

Erica: 00:48:33

Yeah. And it. Look, it. It has really led me to reconsider my trauma.

So just over 12 months ago, I found out that the father who raised me is not my biological dad. And I found out in a pretty traumatic way, doing an ancestry DNA test and finding out first about my sister.

It was very quickly apparent that when she got her results and she got hers first, was very quickly apparent that our dad couldn't possibly be her dad. And so we confronted him.

And that's all a very long story, but it turns out that he is not either of our biological dads, and we were both conceived via donor. Yeah. And it's really an interesting. I mean, that. That has been very Traumatic.

Like, I am 13 months in, I guess, and suffering from some pretty clear sort of PTSD symptoms. Really hypervigilant and, you know, all. All sorts of things.

But it's made me reconsider my religious trauma through a bit of a different lens as well, because, I mean, I was actively lied to basically my entire life. My sister and I don't look alike at all. Turns out that she's actually got Indian heritage. Her father's Indian, and so we look very, very different.

She's quite dark, dark hair. I was very blonde as a child, bright blue eyes. And we used to always ask, you know, like. Like, is one of us adopted? Like, what's.

What's going on here? And we were always told, no, no, you're not adopted.

And so when we took our DNA test, we were not at all suspicious, which is actually really quite laughable at this point because when I look now back at photos and things, I'm like, it was so bloody obvious. How the hell. But it's an interesting one because we were raised in a way that really prioritized honesty.

Sam: 00:50:35

Yeah.

Erica: 00:50:36

And, you know, like, I never believed. I. I. Will children be listening to this? I never believed in, like, S A N T A. Yeah.

Sam: 00:50:46

I can't. I can't imagine unless someone's got it, playing in their house with their kids presently.

Erica: 00:50:51

I apologize. I was that child at school who told a lot of people, but we would never.

We were always told the truth about that because it was sort of like, we won't lie to you. And so there's.

There's a lot around how I felt, like things weren't as they seemed in the spaces around church and things that now I look at and I go, huh? Like, was my sixth sense up even as a little girl saying, like, something's not quite right?

So that definitely sheds a slightly different light on what I experienced as a kid. And like I said, I never felt quite like I belonged. We moved from Canada to Australia when I was 6, and I really didn't want to go.

So there was a lot of complicating factors, I guess, you know, and so I. I almost. I almost want to, like, readjust my assessment of, like, where the trauma stemmed from. Yeah, religion absolutely played a part.

But it turns out that I've been gaslit literally my entire life. And being late, diagnosed autistic ADHD probably doesn't help either.

And so, you know, now I look at the sort of messy tangle of things that have happened and that sense of really not knowing who I am. In a lot of ways. And it makes a lot of that sense.

A lot of that stuff that happened, I guess, in the church make a lot more sense to me in terms of the impact of that. Because I have just kind of been a little bit lost a lot of my life and often didn't feel like I fit into spaces.

And now, you know, we know about, like, genetic mirroring and how important things like that are. And, you know, I was this kid that constantly was looking to find myself in. In the faces of my family.

And we didn't have family nearby because they all lived in Australia, in Canada. And so I was forever asking things like, like, you know, why am I so tall? Because I'm quite tall and the rest of my family isn't.

And I'd be like, why am I so tall? And there'd be some explanation that was just a load of bullshit. But constantly looking for, like, why do I like this? Why am I like that?

Why are my ears sort of like. They're really hard, random things that I constantly be trying to sort of find and not being satisfied with the answers.

And, you know, I did that from such a young age. And so, yeah, I do feel like that muddies the waters a little bit in terms of. Of the religious trauma, in terms of the neurodivergence.

And so what I'm left with is a pretty complex interaction of a whole bunch of different fairly traumatizing factors.

Sam: 00:53:45

Yeah, I mean, like, the. I could give two very different responses here. One is like my therapist empathetic response. And the other is the normal.

Like, the clinical term for that is a cocktail of trauma.

Erica: 00:53:58

Like, where, like, once it's all in.

Sam: 00:54:01

A glass, we have no idea what's.

Erica: 00:54:03

From what, what, what. Exactly. Exactly.

Sam: 00:54:06

But it, like, the thing about that is that eventually, like, there is this human part of us that wants to pull that apart and make sense of it, but it's hard to determine, like, where is what coming from. And like, it just. I mean, not to mention that. That, you know, religion in itself gives such a complex relationship with identity as well.

And so then to have those two things and the neurodivergence sort of like a triple interlocking of, like, who on earth am I?

Erica: 00:54:39

Yeah. And we're still answering that question. I don't know. Yeah, really is. It's messy, you know, and it's. It's interesting.

Like, people often ask me at the moment, like, are you. How are you?

And I'm like, I. I sometimes, I don't know, like, I'm Okay, I, I've always had a really strong sense of something, like a strong sense of self, even though I can't quite put my finger on what it is. But I've also been very much like a shapeshifter and, you know, a people pleaser and, and very happy to dismiss my needs for everybody else's.

And, you know, we could, we could probably point to all three in the, in, in the, in the soupy mix of that cocktail and say, like, they all lend themselves to that kind of behavior. But it does make it hard. It certainly does make it hard to untangle at this end. And, you know, like I said, I'm 42 years old.

Bit of a kick in the guts to be like, yeah, here's, here's all the ways you don't know yourself.

And it's interesting when something like, just a side note, if anybody's listening and somebody comes to them and tells them that they are late discovery donor conceived and they've just found out their father isn't who they thought, please don't tell them you are still you because it's such a, it, it just feels like someone slapped you in the face. Likewise, don't say your dad is still your dad or your mother's still your mother.

Like, it, it just, it doesn't, it doesn't hit the way you think it does. It comes with such beautiful intention. I get that.

But it can be so distressing for someone in that position because you are suddenly literally, like, literally, who am I? And it's been interesting.

Like, there's, I won't get into the details, but we've learned more about other parts of the family tree that also aren't who we believe them to be. And so I went from believing that I knew who I was and where I came from to literally having one line left.

And yeah, so it, it's, you know, I, I, I wish that I could pull it apart and be like, well, here's how this part affected me, and here's how this part affected me. But looking back, I'm like, wow, there's no way to do that.

There's actually no way to pull your neurodivergence out from your gaslighting, from your sort of lack of genetic mirroring to being taken from, you know, your, your homeland, for want of a better term, to the religious messaging that made you feel like a terrible person. It's just all kind of there. So, yeah, yeah, I still clearly have some, some healing to do, but that's okay.

Sam: 00:57:36

And I mean, as you're, as you were talking about, like, all of the newfound information with your family, I'm like, yeah, it might be like in that circumstance right there, it's not really just centered, but in this situation it is belonging centered, which so many of my listeners will relate to because it's what people lose in that moment and it's what everybody as humans crave is a space to belong and a space to feel seen and to feel connected and to have family, whether they are, you know, church family, biological family, you know, but there is a sense of belonging that has been taken away from you in that moment. It's just a different flavor of belonging. But it's. Yeah.

What, like, and I don't want to ask you how you are, but I do want to say, like, how has the last 12 months been?

Erica: 00:58:33

Show. Yeah, a shit show. Yeah, it's been awful. I, I won't sugarcoat it. It's been horrible.

I've experienced a lot of anxiety and depression in my life, probably from being undiagnosed, but nothing like the last year. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's been horrible. Like, I, I have continued on.

Like, I, you know, I work as a counselor, I run my own business doing a couple of different things, and I have been well enough to do all of that. Like, it's, it's really interesting the way that the human brain can kind of sort of shift through different modes.

I'm very grateful that I had done the kind of work that I'd already done when this happened because. Because setting boundaries and engaging in self care and things like that were pretty second nature to me by that point.

But the sense of betrayal and the sense of, yeah, like, identity shock, navigating estrangement. My mother passed away in that period of time as well.

You know, like, if I was to literally list out the things that have happened in the last 12 months, you'd be like, like, are you sure?

Sam: 00:59:50

Yeah, like, how are we talking today?

Erica: 00:59:52

Yeah, like, I almost. Some days I think, like, just go to bed. Just go to bed. Like. But I think it's that sense of despite everything.

And this is something that I often say to my therapist is like, despite everything, there's something in me that feels so grounded and sure of itself. I don't, I don't know what it is, but yeah, somehow I've made a really safe space for myself in, in my little family.

And for that I'm really grateful.

But it is a good reminder that like, people can function really well on the surface and still be Broken on the inside and like broken in the sense of like you can be broken and still okay in if that makes sense. But yeah, I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. Honestly, I wouldn't wish, I wouldn't wish what I've experienced on anyone.

Sam: 01:00:48

Yeah, Yeah. I, I'm gonna ask a weird left field scent left center. Oh my gosh, what's that? My brain just like malfunctioned. It was like the spinning wheel.

Erica: 01:01:01

Let me ask you a question.

Sam: 01:01:04

Oh my goodness. It was a bit of a, an off center question because I'm sort of thinking like if I had had something that.

And like it's been a bit of a storm few years as well for me within a different sector.

But in those moments I had this instinctive part that of me that went, oh, I really wish that I prayed and I really wished that I had a God that I believed in right now, in this moment who I felt like I could just feel like I could, you know, that like put all of your worries and your cares upon this divine being and pray and feel some comfort in that space. What has that been like for you?

Erica: 01:01:52

Yeah, it's really interesting. So I have not felt the urge to pray in a million years.

Have popped up where I'm like, my instinct was to do that not often, but like enough that I was like, that's interesting. Yeah. And I, I don't pray like that. That's not something that I would do.

But I noticed that the, that very familiar sort of like dear God, kind of like moment really came upon me a couple of times. And so it is interesting because like literally like 20, what is that, 24 years or something of not being in that space.

And it definitely was my instinct to do that. And so, yeah, there have been some very existentially kind of griefy moments of like, what's the point? For sure.

Like I've definitely had those moments and wished that I had. Yeah. A sense of purpose that was beyond, beyond it all. But there's been some practices, you know, as a yoga teacher for such a long time.

I guess I have some spiritual practices that, that perhaps fill that void a little bit. Yeah. And so there's things that I would do that I guess connected me to something.

But interestingly the thing that I connect to the most often is my sort of sense of my enduring, I suppose, like in terms of trusting myself.

Like I, I, I think that's interesting to reflect on because I haven't tried like, you know, there's been so many things to erode that But I have been very aware of that sense of, like, I am okay, and I. I can navigate this. Like, I actually can do this. And I think for me, too, probably what fills that void a little bit is my desire to help other people.

One thing that I'm really pleasantly surprised by is how with every new blow that I seem to receive, my capacity for empathy really is deepened. I think I'm a much better counselor for it, to be honest.

I. I think that I. I'm just better at what I do, which is an unfortunate way to get there, but, you know, silver linings and all that. And so perhaps that sense of, like, connected humanness has been really important to me, which, you know, like, that's not disconnected from.

From the lessons that I learned in the church, but in a very different way. And so. Yeah. Does that sort of answer that question?

Sam: 01:04:40

Yeah, absolutely. And.

And I asked the question in a dual sense of, like, you know, my own experience, but also leading into, like, I obviously know that you're a yoga teacher and, you know, that sort of thing.

And I do like to ask people this question because I think it gives listeners, like, a really good sense of, like, it is okay wherever you land on this, which is, where is spirituality for you now?

Because it is often something that either, you know, people try desperately to hold on to and they, you know, merge it or morph it into something that feels safe for them, or they burn it all down and they want nothing to do with anything that is faith or spiritual spirituality connected. Where does that land for you?

Erica: 01:05:28

I think I've probably been on parts of, like, various parts of that spectrum over time. I certainly burnt it all down at the start. And then yoga was a really interesting experience, like, when I started, because I really resisted the.

The spiritual elements of it, to be honest, because I ended up training in a. In a system where there was a swami so, like, orange robes, shaved head, and we had to go to the ashram, and I hated it. I just.

I really didn't like it because I was like, this is church, but with a different book, and I didn't like it. I just. I was like, you know, and it turned out that. That. That ashram we were going to. He was. He was not doing things very nicely. So he was.

He was accused of a lot of sexual abuse in the end. And I. I think I could sense that things were not as they seemed. And so I think I threw it all away for a really long time.

I don't know how I would even describe my sense of. Of Spirituality.

Now, I don't believe in anything in particular at all, but I do really have a sense of, I don't know, like, mysterious purpose sort of sitting behind. Yeah.

Like, there was a few things that happened when my sister and I found out about our donor conception that felt like they were sort of almost divinely guided. And I wouldn't say that I felt like God had a hand in it because I'm. I am atheist, but I would say that something was happening.

Like, I felt very looked after, which is a weird thing to say. But there were just certain things that had happened in the lead up that I was like, wow, imagine if that hadn't happened already.

This would be so much worse. So there's this sort of sense, I guess, of like, there's something at play, but I don't name it. I don't. I don't rely on it.

But I'm often sort of like, huh, curious thing. Yeah. I've got 11. 11 tattooed on my wrist, which is the whole story.

But I guess that gives you a sense of like, there is some spirituality there for me, but it doesn't have anything other than a feeling associated with it. It doesn't have a name. It doesn't have really even particular practices associated with it. Yeah, she's loose. She's loose. Yeah, she's open.

She's not getting stuck in any kind of. Yeah, yeah. Rules or dogma these days.

Sam: 01:07:55

As.

As we both said that, I just had a moment where I was like, oh, the extra connotations to what we just said is really great considering the purity culture conversation we were having.

Erica: 01:08:06

It's always been my desire to be a little bit more, like, chill. So, yeah, I'm with that. I'm down with that.

Sam: 01:08:11

I love that. I love the irony. Oh, goodness. Okay. I love finishing these episodes with some encouragement for people.

And so I. I usually like to tailor it to the person and their story and things like that. Now, and the broad question is, what would you say to someone who is either fresh out of church, fresh in their deconstruction, or.

Or grappling with their religious trauma? But I'm gonna niche it down a little bit based on your story to someone who is grappling with the identity portion of this whole thing?

Erica: 01:08:51

Yeah. My advice is almost always the same, regardless of the question.

Sam: 01:08:56

Well, had I known that, like, two minutes ago, Erica, that would have been helpful.

Erica: 01:09:00

My. My clients always laugh because they're like, I know what you're going to say. I'm like, you do? Because it's Always the same answer.

Yeah, passion, self compassion.

At the end of the day, honestly, it's my answer to everything because you know that that sense of identity crisis is so derailing on a level that I never could have anticipated. And there is no quick way through that. That's what I'm learning. Right? Like there is no quick way through that.

Just like there's no quick way through deconstruction. There is no quick way through trauma of any kind of mind.

And so if we, if we can't meet ourselves in with compassion through that, yeah, we kind of compound our own pain. And so my advice to anyone, regardless, like, literally, literally, just apply it to anything more self compassion, be kind with yourself, be gentle.

It is going to take time and there is going to be pain. And I think if we can acknowledge that, that and choose to be on our own side through it, like, what else can you ask for really?

And like get good people on your side. I think that's part of it too. Like, I have a tendency to want to do things all by myself. Like I'm, I can just figure it out on my own.

I don't need anyone independent woman. Independent woman who is actually not particularly independent at all. But I struggle to ask for help. I struggle to say, you know, I'm not okay.

And you know, my therapist has been invaluable. My friends, my partner. So, yeah, self compassion is the short answer. Yeah.

Sam: 01:10:39

I feel like after the many conversations I've had with you, I should have known that that was going to be your answer.

Erica: 01:10:44

You should have really, you did a.

Sam: 01:10:45

Whole last session on it. I should have known. I should have known that that was going to be your answer. But I love it nonetheless.

Well, thank you for joining me, but thank you for sharing so vulnerably about something that is not a decade ago for you. That is like you are living every day within this space. And so I appreciate you coming on and sharing so vulnerably for people.

Erica: 01:11:15

Yeah, yeah, look, I will say, like, I had thoughts. I was like, do I, what do I, what do I do here? Like, how much do I want to talk about?

But the reality is that, that, you know, we have to share our stories. I just think it's so important that we have to share our stories. I mean, only if you want to. Right?

Like, but for those of us, I feel a sense of responsibility. I think just simply because I am willing and I am able and I'm not silenced, I can speak.

And so for me, that is part of my healing too, is to be able to say like, you know what? This is my story. I will tell it. So thank you for giving me a platform to do that that is outside of my own, which is. Is really lovely.

It's a lot easier to talk about when you're in conversation.

Sam: 01:11:57

Right? Yeah. I don't know how you do it. Also, side little plug there. Erica has her own podcast. I'll link it in the show notes. It's really good.

I featured on it at one point. You did, but yeah. I don't know how you do episodes on your own. It's like a whole. I couldn't do it.

I'd be sitting here like I'm going insane, talking to myself.

Erica: 01:12:18

Reference my earlier point where I have a. I have a tendency to just, like, do things on my own.

Sam: 01:12:22

Yeah, true. Oh, but yes. Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And I'm sure many people listening will also appreciate that vulnerability.

Erica: 01:12:34

Thank you.

Sam: 01:12:36

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.