The One Who Went From Mormonism To Writing Spicy Novels

00:06 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagurra land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high-control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. Sam and each week, I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. Curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, daisy. Thanks for joining me. Thanks for having me For a bit of context for people they will obviously recognize your lovely US accent.

01:38

Where in the world are you at the moment? I am in the United States. I'm in Utah. Okay, every time I've had a guest on who's in Utah, I feel like it might give away the flavor of religion we are potentially going to talk about in this episode. Yes, um, but I am so excited about this episode I reached. I remember reaching out to you after I had read your first, the first book of yours that I had read. Since then, which is probably only what two and a bit weeks ago, I imagine I have now read everything you've released. I loved it. It was all amazing. It's so freaking good. You are the second spicy author I've had on the podcast, and so I'm just loving the connections that are being made in this space. It's so cool, and I will like we'll get to talking a little bit about your books and things like that in a bit, I imagine. But I like to start the episodes with a super broad, very vague question when does your story start?

02:48 - Daisy (Guest)

My story starts before I was even a thaw in my parents' eye, I think.

02:55

Oh, no, okay, my grandparents met when they were on a Mormon mission and the way my grandpa tells the story is he saw her and immediately knew, and growing up I have come to learn that I think that was kind of one-sided and like it wasn't exactly mutual love at first sight for both of them and so, and on the opposite end, like my grandma, my dad's side was a member of the church and my grandpa was not. So we kind of have two very different things. So my parents were raised differently but they were both raised in the same religion and it's interesting to see how their views came together. So my family situation my parents were both married previously in the temple and got divorced and then they married each other and had me. So I have five siblings for my dad's first marriage, four for my mom's and so my, when you think a lot of times, when you think of of Mormons, you think of big families, and I come from a very big family, but not in the traditional way.

04:11 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, so I mean, divorce in the Mormon church is not super traditional right, so like, even from the get-go, that's pretty um, anti or like different to the norm. I, I would imagine, um. Did that impact the way that you, I guess, were taught the messaging of the Mormon church growing up, or was it still just as um crazy fundamental as if you were in a family where both parents that was the original marriage?

04:53 - Daisy (Guest)

I think it changed how I was taught only because by the time I was born, a lot of my older siblings have left the church as teenagers, and so when I was born, I was told from the get go that I would be the one to bring my siblings back to the church and I was the glue that was holding our family together. So from the time that I'm out of pressure at all, none at all. So I I grew up not having. I didn't know half of my siblings until I was 10 or older, and then the other half weren't active or weren't members anymore, and so it was kind of I didn't grow up as fundamental as other Mormon families did, but my parents still tried to really instill those values, but it was hard because half of their kids weren't involved. So it was like how can you speak badly about people that have left when it's your own family?

05:46 - Sam (Host)

yeah, except that happens all the time. Right, I was like I'm thinking I've heard like countless stories of how that happens, but, um, as a kid watching that, like it, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, right, right, yeah, so what was I mean? Also, I'm now sort of like sitting here drawing an immense amount of conclusions to your third book, um, but which I mean, to be fair, I'm also thinking you did write that also but, um, are you, your parents? Only I am, yeah, okay, so what, what, like? What was your childhood like in terms of like, being raised in that flavor of religion?

06:37 - Daisy (Guest)

it was very much me being like well, why can't I not go to church? If my older siblings aren't going to church and they live in the same house, like, why, why do I have to go? And then it was well, if you don't go, you're grounded. And I'm like, well, and then it was always. The answer was always well, they're older and they can make their own decisions. And I'm like, okay, but by the time I got to that age, I still wasn't able to make my own decisions.

07:12 - Sam (Host)

So lots of contradictory yes, I was like was the contradictions only in relation to your siblings or did you feel that contradiction in other spaces in terms of like what you were being taught? I mean, obviously it's tricky because I imagine you wouldn't have noticed it as contradictions at the time.

07:30 - Daisy (Guest)

but Well, my best friend lived behind me growing up. We and she was not a church member, so she got to do things on Sundays and she would always ask why I couldn't have sleepovers or why I couldn't play on Sundays. And I was like, well, I can if you come to church. Yeah, and so, like, from from the beginning, I was born to be a missionary, but I never ended up going on a mission. But, like I was born into questioning, I feel like, like it's not surprising that I left, considering the circumstances that I was born into.

08:11 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, like was day-to-day immersed in the Mormon church, or was it like because I mean most Mormons that I've met is pretty all-consuming and heavy on?

08:23 - Daisy (Guest)

Yeah, I would say mine wasn't as immersed, but we had pictures of the temple. We had pictures of Jesus, of Joseph Smith. Like we would start the day with prayer and scripture study as much as we could we would have. We would end it with prayer and scripture study and all of my clothing choices were based on if it was appropriate and met the church's standards or not. But like there are some more fundamentalist mormons who everything they eat is determined by, like the church, they won't eat certain meats or they won't eat. They will only eat organic food. My, my upbringing wasn't like that, but it was still like you start and end the day with the prayer you like.

09:06 - Sam (Host)

If you're not thinking about God and all that you do, then you're not doing it right yeah, did it feel like it was rich, like as you're talking, I'm sort of thinking like it's very ritualistic and and sort of like you had structured prayer and structured you know what I would have called devotional time it's probably not the term I imagined that you would have used, but like time of reading you know scriptures and things like that. Was it? Did it just feel ritualistic or did it feel personal for you Like, especially as you sort of got a little bit older?

09:43 - Daisy (Guest)

For me it felt ritualistic. I never felt like that was something I wanted to be doing. It was always that, oh, I need to do this. It was always, oh, I need to get out of bed so I can pray, because I have to. It was never a, I never wanted to, and then I always felt bad because I didn't want to.

10:01 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah. And was the guilt around disappointing your parents, or was it like good old fashioned religious guilt, or both A?

10:10 - Daisy (Guest)

little bit of both. Yeah, I like. Even now, having left, I'm still like well, what if God does exist and he is judging me for all of these things?

10:20 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, the what ifs are like powerful. Yeah, yeah, the what-ifs are like powerful. It's like two words, but it's a very powerful sense in you when you have been taught one thing and you choose to deviate and go a different way. Um, it is, they're very two powerful little words, aren't they? Yes, yeah, yes, um they yeah. You've already sort of alluded to like clothing and and things like that, and so I am very aware that growing up in the Mormon church is a very different experience if you are assigned female at birth, and so what was that experience like for you, particularly going into, I guess, teenage years, and you know purity standards and body image and sex and relationships and all of that sort of stuff.

11:15 - Daisy (Guest)

So I had to parade my school clothes in front of my dad after I would buy them and he would have to approve every outfit. And neither of us wanted him wanted to do that like he was. He didn't like it, but he my mom and him felt like as the patriarch of our family. I guess he needed to make sure that my clothes were appropriate and he was also a school administrator, so like he was aware of the school standards and school dress code. Standards are a lot more conservative in Utah than surrounding states and I didn't realize that growing up until I started talking to other people. But yeah, he would have to approve my clothes.

11:55

When I was going to school dances I most of the time my dresses were more modest and I would have to wear them as if I was wearing garments, even though I didn't. I wasn't wearing garments at 16 years old. Um, sex wasn't talked about ever really, so I didn't really know a whole lot other than what I found on the internet, because I was curious and, uh, not supposed to date until you're 16. I did anyways, behind my parents back and they didn't know. But like I didn't have any standard of what a healthy relationship really looked like. So I didn't know there was really and there was really no reason for why you shouldn't date until you're 16. It was just kind of one of those rules where they throw it at you and you're just like, okay, I guess, and you're not supposed to have a serious boyfriend or girlfriend.

12:55

And that one was because the more time you spend with a person, the more likely you are to slip and fall, so to speak. But again, there was no mention of like, well, if you do slip and fall, use protection, or here's this. And so it was just kind of, yeah, just don't do it, yeah, just scare tactics yeah, were you getting like very like formal messages around this, like, was it happening in?

13:28 - Sam (Host)

like I'm assuming there's like youth meetings and things like that as teenagers, like, were you getting these talks? I've heard the only. I've heard a lot of like purity metaphors in my time in these conversations. I'm in these conversations, but there is one in particular that I have only ever heard from ex Mormons, and so I don't know whether it's Mormon specific or not, but the like the two cakes being brought out and one gets smashed is like a sexual metaphor that like, once you have sex, the cake is smashed and you can't rebuild it to look the same way as the other. Is that? Have you had that?

14:08 - Daisy (Guest)

I've had a similar one. So we had like a licked cupcake, which is a pretty like. I feel like that's a common one in a lot of different religions. But we had a cupcake and then they threw dirt on it and then they put like other things that aren't edible on it and they were like see, now you don't want it. Yeah, I'm like, okay, that's. Oh. I've always been like that's a really weird metaphor because you could just get another cupcake. It's not. It's not like, yeah, the end of the world.

14:43 - Sam (Host)

But I mean it's tricky trying to apply logic to an illogical argument. It feels quite futile. But like, were you getting a lot of that very formal purity messaging, and were you getting it just from like church or were you getting it from home as well?

15:07 - Daisy (Guest)

my parents didn't want to talk about anything revolving, anything sexual, not even like my periods, not like it was kind of just oh, you started your menstrual cycle, let me know when you need more pads. And so I didn't really know a whole lot about what was going on with my body. Um, I was I wouldn't say I was getting a lot of formal purity culture stuff. It was more like the vague messaging and the you're in charge of the boys. It's purity, don't let them fall astray. And I maybe I've just blocked it out, but I don't remember, which is very possible, but I don't remember having like, explicit like, don't have sex conversations. It was always the flowery language where they would go around the topic and not actually come out and say it. Maybe there was one instance where they were like you shouldn't have sex, and that was kind of the bottom line.

16:13 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, I think in a lot of conversations that I have with people, the only time that sex explicitly is mentioned is when it's referred to as like, once you get married, you have sex and it's good and it's of god and it's like all of that sort of thing, and so sex is talked about explicitly in that sense. But I think you're right, but prior to that, it's very often metaphorical types of conversations, um, because I think that's where the fear can often be instilled is through metaphor rather than actually talking about the thing. That you are actually talking about means that it's far harder, I think, to instill that fear-based messaging.

16:54

The Mormon church has got like some questionable beliefs and practices. I'm trying to be very politically correct in that statement and yet in like a um a recording that I've done with one other, like another Mormon, I was like, oh yeah, like Mormonism definitely is a cult, um, and so like I don't know why I'm trying to be politically correct in that, but there is definitely some questionable practices and beliefs. But I'm curious, like how that was for you growing up and also, um, how the messaging around, what you were being taught about yourself, actually made you feel about yourself oh, I hated myself a lot because of the messaging that they I.

17:39 - Daisy (Guest)

I don't know how to explain.

17:41

I had a lot of sexual trauma early on in my life and I feel like that kind of I don't want to. I was never diagnosed like being hypersexual but like, looking back, I think that that's what it was or what it, because I'm not that way now, but as a child, like I was very aware of my body and I think that also kind of has to do with being a plus size. Yeah, like, once I turned 12, my body started becoming bigger than the other girls and I feel like my mom sexualized my body before I sexualized my body and so I are. I already started hating myself when I started needing to wear bras in the third grade. Like my mom was like the boys will only want to hug you because you have boobs, or you can't wear a skirt to school because all the boys will want to look up it. And I was just like, well, I didn't understand why she never explained like the reasoning behind it, and so I was like, oh, like the reasoning behind it, and so I was like, oh, okay, so I just I didn't like myself and the church is not kind to people. People in larger bodies they're not. They're not kind of fat people.

18:57

Um, the first strength of youth was basically like if you're fat, you're unhealthy, and if you're unhealthy you're not of god. And so it was just like oh so I had just had lists, lists of reasons why I should just hate myself, and that caused a lot of suicidal ideations at a very young age, especially with the whole role of baptism, where you get baptized at eight and then you're considered like anything you do, you have to repent for. So even before I was eight years old, I was like it would be better if I just died, because, like, I'm gonna mess up. And what if I mess up so horribly that I can't come back from it? So it's just, I know not everybody experiences it the same way that I did, but like when I hate to talk about everybody else I hate to talk about yeah, you're right.

19:55

I just I and I was in therapy. I was in therapy from when I was four years old, yeah, over and over again, with LDS family services specifically, and they also instilled a lot of shame, because they would have a questionnaire that you filled out and one. A few of the questions were like have you done anything that your bishop would disapprove of or have you done anything that would make your family disappointed in you? And I would always lie because I'm like, yeah, I have been, but I don't want to tell you that because I don't know who you're going to tell. So it wasn't effective therapy, it was just more shame based.

20:34 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it's not even ineffective, it's actually just really unsafe and dangerous therapy and like, as you were talking, I was sort of thinking, you know it's really tricky because so many people who grow up in high control systems particularly like women and queer people and anybody who is the other in those spaces suicide ideation and mental health is just like so common and yet the church is so fucking shit at dealing with mental health, like like so bad.

21:12 - Daisy (Guest)

Well, it's funny because, like, I was diagnosed with depression and anxiety when I was like 10 years old. So my mom thinks of herself as a mental health advocate. So when I was 15 or 16, she one of the therapists at LDS Family Services ended that I saw ended up being one of her friends from high school. She invited her to come and speak at like a Relief Society Young Women's, which is the like the women's group and then the youth group. She invited her to come and talk about mental health. But, like, at the same time, my mom wasn't listening to me and advocating really for my mental health. So it was just kind of like I'm right here and you're not helping me, but you want to help everybody else.

22:04 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, so yeah and I mean, like, my first instinct is like it was that more about the image that she got from that. Yes, yep, yes, 100 percent um, oh and like you sort of said that you were diagnosed with anxiety and depression. But what were the conversations around like why you were experiencing that and where? Like was it still very much like well, you are not devoted or dedicated or holy or pure enough and that's why you are experiencing these things? Like was it still your fault.

22:40 - Daisy (Guest)

I think that it wasn't until I turned 12. Right and went to. So they call it young women's. Yeah, from ages 12 to 18, you're young women's, and that's when you start on like personal progress.

22:55

And it's just a list of spiritual experiences and tasks to check off and then you get a like a medallion at the end. But before that it was activity days and you kind of had the same kind of checklist. But you didn't really get like the same recognition when you pass, that is, when you turn 12 to 18. And so when I turned 12 it kind of shifted to well, are you doing your personal progress? Are you praying every day? Like it shifted from oh she has anxiety because of x, y and z events to oh she has anxiety and depression because she's not faithful enough. So I never really thought about that until just now.

23:40 - Sam (Host)

That that's kind of when it shifted yeah, don't we love when we realize things in real time? Yeah, it's being recorded. Yes, um, I mean, like it's just such a common narrative that I hear that you know we will use the like the correct terminology, so to speak. It's your fault and we still think that you have, um the power to like you're not doing enough and you're like you could be doing more to help this um, which just shames us in our mental health experiences. Um, but yeah, it's. Um, I mean the developmental part of me goes 12. Yeah, because we have like so much knowledge and so much like brain development. At that point, um, I mean I've even, as you sort of said, like eight at baptism.

24:52 - Daisy (Guest)

I'm just like the like the irony ages in these spaces is like is insane yeah, my oldest is almost seven and I'm like you were making me make that choice at eight years old, like I cannot imagine telling him hey, yeah, by the way, you have to make this super important promise. Like most of the time, he can't even remember when he needs to, like, get dressed for school, like it's he's not making, yeah, terrible life decisions. Yeah, right now that he needs to repent for. Quote unquote.

25:30 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, even when I, like I talk about my own story of, like you know, coming to Jesus at the ripe old age of like 11, I think it was um, and I just think, like I didn't have any concept of eternity at that age. Like, no kid at that age has any concept of eternity, they barely have the concept of like the end of the day or the end of the week, depending on the age. And so, um, like, how do you remember that time? Like did you? I mean, you already sort of mentioned the immense pressure that you felt as to the role that you are supposed to play in your family, but was there personal pressure as to who you were supposed to be in like the broader sense of like the family, like of like the church family?

26:20 - Daisy (Guest)

kind of. I was pressured, not just by my parents but by leaders, to invite my friends who weren't members to come to church, and I I've always felt uncomfortable, like I'll ask you once, yeah, but if you say no, I'm not gonna keep asking you, like I'm not gonna pressure you into that. But, like in my church group, I've always been a very, like, emotional person. I always cry. I cry when I'm happy, sad ain't like, I just cry over everything. And that's been true since I was a child, and so people always thought, oh, she feels the spirit when she's crying about xyz.

27:01 - Sam (Host)

And so they told me, and so I was like, oh, I'm a very spiritual person when reality like I don't think my emotional needs are being met and so I was just sad yeah, oh, it's so easy to spiritualize very human experiences though, right like, and not just have other people spiritualize them for us, but it's easy for us to do that for ourselves because it's a way for us to make it make sense a lot of the time, um, so it's such a but it's also just like, super unhelpful for us and super harmful in a lot of spaces as well, depending on what you know the context is of that. There was another I love. This is why I don't have any structure to my episodes, daisy, because I just jump around to my episodes Daisy, because I just jump around. But there was something that I was also going to ask about the purity messaging, because it is such a different experience and you sort of already started to talk about it.

28:09

It's such a different experience for different body types, particularly for women, but the purity standards are really different, right, and I imagine that within the Mormon church it is the same um, that um. You know. I give a very simple example of like. I had, um a friend who was probably half the body size. She was tiny, um of what I was, and um could wear like singlets, like when we're at the beach, and things like that. I was not like I would get pulled aside because obviously I was larger than the other girls and and so like there are very simple experiences like that where the purity standards are just like starkly different, and so was your experience similar in that differences.

29:05 - Daisy (Guest)

Yeah, for sure. So like, for example, like shorts I'm also short, though, so I'm five feet tall Like people in taller bodies can't wear yeah, I'm very small. They can't wear shorts the same length that I can, because it would ride up, but at the same time, like the way my body was built, my t-shirts would be tighter across my chest and people would accuse me of like showing it off. I'm like I just we're literally all wearing the same shirt.

29:38

Yeah, we're all wearing the same shirt. I can't control how it fits my body. And yeah, I wasn't allowed to wear leggings. I had to wear pants, but I didn't like jeans, so I didn't wear jeans.

29:52 - Sam (Host)

I just dressed like a business casual person or I wore dresses, yeah it's terms we usually use for, like you know, when you go into the workplace. And yet, like we're talking about, like high school, right, like because it's the only you know, quote-unquote safe clothing um to wear, which is like wild to just put that level of um hyper focus, and like nitpicking on um on clothing and body types and it just makes you hyper aware, hypersensitive and hyper focused on every little thing, right right.

30:41 - Daisy (Guest)

I also think I know a lot of other plus size people relate to this but like I had to get up and like do my hair and get my makeup perfect because if I didn't I looked unkempt. Quote unquote from, like my mother's point of view, like she was very much on the you have to go out looking your best. It was kind of like what was the phrase you never like? Would you look that way in front of Jesus like every single day? And I was like sometimes I just want to wear sweatpants to school, like why do I have to dress up all the time? And that's both like a Mormonism thing, I think, and a plus size. Yeah, experience is like always looking your best and I'm like sometimes looking my best is that I am awake and I am wearing clothes like I don't want to have to put in all the effort absolutely.

31:41 - Sam (Host)

I feel like um there was a missed opportunity for a slogan there of like dressing up for Jesus, I'm sure someone has that um, but if they haven't?

31:55

not that they would be listening to this podcast, but if they haven't, somebody definitely just got that idea, but it is. It's such a weird paradigm, right, and I think, like you said, even in non-church or non-faith spaces it's very much like a distraction. It's used as a distraction, like if my face and my hair look good, it's a distraction for my body, and so it's like a redirection almost as well as appearing to look, you know, well-dressed and you know all of that sort of thing. So how did that shift and change the older that you got into, sort of like late teenage years and things like that, when I imagine the freedom that you had started to increase a little bit, and you know, also, sex drive also comes into the mix at that point. So, like, how did the purity culture and the church messaging sort of like impact you as you started to get a little bit older?

33:02 - Daisy (Guest)

I, until I graduated high school, I still had to show my dad all my school clothes, so my freedom to dress did not really come until I moved out and even then I was always terrified. My mom would call and be like you're wearing that. So it was, yeah, it was hard. I also started realizing how much larger I was than my friends in high school. Like, my friends were also very small, tiny. They were ex-cheerleaders or like just naturally sin, and so I was very aware of my body and it was. I struggled a lot with it. I was on and off diets with, with my mom and my sister all the time and a lot of that was, I think, also it was always well, we gotta look our best. Gotta look our best because we're women of God and we we want.

34:04

The Mormons say you want to be an elect lady like Emma Smith, and I'm like but do we really need to? Like? I've always been like, do we really need to starve ourselves? Like? I don't want to eat salad all the time, I don't want to constantly be worried about counting calories and I just I've never wanted to live that way and it feels like. Especially in Utah, the beauty standards are thin blonde, perky boobs, like it's very much you want to look the same. There's billboards everywhere for tummy tucks and boob lifts and botox and maybe I don't don't, just didn't realize that back when I was younger, but like the underlying message of if you don't look the same, you're not gonna fit in, and like you weren't as good, it was kind of there yeah, I think also, like of course you wouldn't see it while you're there like there's that sort of mentality that sometimes, until you leave a space, you don't notice those things because it's just normal, right, like you know.

35:16 - Sam (Host)

It's just normal, right, like you know, it's just normal. That like I mean from what I know about you, tara, is that there's basically like a Mormon church and temple every like on every street and every corner. So like, until you leave that space, you don't necessarily know any different, like it is just the most normal thing in the world. And so I think in some ways, like you know those things that we notice when we're out. Of course we wouldn't notice them when we were still in. We're not supposed to. So it's, yeah, it's tricky Because a lot of those realizations come a little bit later. Mean, I ask a version of this question you know to most people, but like during this period of time, like who was God to you? Or like um, or like the divine or any like um, heavenly father, I'm assuming?

36:10

yeah who was that to you?

36:13 - Daisy (Guest)

he was just a dude like he just. I've never felt like I've had a personal relationship with God. He always felt like just another man watching me to make sure I don't mess up, like I've never been like, oh God's on my side because, like he, like, why? Why would he want to watch me go through all these things and not intervene? Like that's a shitty, shitty dude, yeah.

36:44 - Sam (Host)

And so like, how did that impact the way, like because you are still going every Sunday to meetings and things like that, right, and so like I love and I'm gonna use a reference or like not really a reference, but just like a part of your book where I giggled and like where the people are non-Mormon who are in meetings, mormon meetings and going, like the little italic of another prayer, um, and you know, just to like really symbolize just how like drawn out these spaces are a lot of the time, but you know you are doing that week in, week out for years on end and not even being immersed in terms of like I don't even believe this. What impact did that have on you?

37:36 - Daisy (Guest)

I felt so dumb because, like in more in Utah specifically, seminary, which is grades 9 through 12, is during school hours most of the time. Like you can take it, other places take it, like in the early morning. So I was taking at least three times a week, if not more sometimes. So I was Sundays, and then it was seminary two to three times a week, and then it was youth group and then sometimes it was on Saturdays and then in the summers you have girls camp which is a week long, and I was just like, am I missing something? Because, like I have, I don't have them anymore.

38:19

I threw them away because I don't remember, but I had journals and journals of seminary where I would just take notes because I was like I want to understand, I want to believe and feel what everybody else is feeling, but I just don't like it, didn't? It never really made sense to me? I was always. I always had made friends with people who weren't in the church and they were like I don't. It never really made sense to me. I was always. I always had made friends with people who weren't in the church and they were like I don't understand these rules. And I was like you know what? I don't understand these rules either, and I'd always be like I'm not like other Mormons and they were like okay, so I'm like it makes sense that I left, because I was never really in it in the beginning.

38:55 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and did you like throughout all of that time, like, were you thinking that there was something wrong with me or there was something wrong with everybody else?

39:05 - Daisy (Guest)

I thought there was something wrong with me. Yeah, because I never really like realized it was a cult until I moved out and started like looking at it from an outside perspective, when I was like you know, that's weird, that's a really strange ritual. But, like before I met my husband, I hadn't gone to church in like nine months and then, when I broke up with my previous boyfriend before I met my husband, I was like I'm going to come back to church because that's what my parents told me I needed to do and I didn't. I was 19 and didn't know what was going on in my life and I was like well, maybe what's missing is church now. And it was not.

39:51

I two year, two, three years after my husband and I got married, we left the church because we were like I personally was like I don't want to do this anymore COVID hit we weren't going to church and I was like I don't have as much anxiety because I'm not forced to go and put on a mask anymore and my husband was slower to come around. But I genuinely thought there was something wrong with me until I found a community of online people on Twitter who are also like hey, this is weird, right and other people are like yeah, that is weird, and here's why it's wrong. And I was like oh, yeah, okay, so it's not just me, yeah.

40:37 - Sam (Host)

Okay, so it's not just me, yeah, yeah, what like? I'm curious what it was like for you once you left home and were not necessarily as immersed in it as what you previously were, but also just like navigating. And I'm going to use like quote unquote, the real world, because you know, I know for a lot of people who were Mormon growing up in Utah it's like its own little, like bubble and world. It's like very different to like being a Mormon in another city or in another country. Um, and so like it can mirror, like what we would say like reintegration after leaving a cult right, and so like what was it like for you to navigate the world outside of your home, so to speak?

41:24 - Daisy (Guest)

well, I moved from my parents house to Utah Valley to go to college and Utah Valley they call it happy valley because like BYU, byu is there and it's just like Utah is the most Mormon state but Utah county, utah Valley, is the most Mormon, like dense population. So it was kind of so. You did the opposite. Yeah, I was. I put myself even more into the cult, but like my roommates, because I lived with three other girls. They weren't members well, maybe one of them was, but like they weren't pressuring me to go to church, so that was kind of like the first, oh, I don't have to go to church on Sundays, and so I would lie to my parents and tell them that I was, but I was really hanging out with my boyfriend.

42:18

So rebellious, yeah. Yeah, I was rebellious even when I was like fully immersed, day to day. Like I lost my virginity when I was like 16 because and I felt super guilty about it, yeah, the whole time. Yeah, the whole time. But like on the same track of like, oh, I'm gonna have to repent for all these things. I was like if I have sex, I can just repent for it.

42:46 - Sam (Host)

Like my brain was rationalizing both things, like you shouldn't be doing this because you're like you're bad, but also like Jesus died for your sins, so just commit them, I guess yeah, I mean, I like I'm wondering if, like was it, do you feel like that was because you know, the faith that you were being raised in didn't feel personal and so you were able, I guess, to have that degree of separation or degree of like, desensitization, to like some of those things.

43:19 - Daisy (Guest)

I think so. I mean, I don't know like the guilt still, like I was still, I still felt super guilty, but I think I felt more guilty lying about it to my parents and like lying about where I was, lying about what I was doing, than I did actually doing it. But like sometimes, when I'm sexting my husband, I'm still like oh my gosh, this is so bad, even though we've been married for eight years, like I'm like it's, it literally doesn't matter. Yeah, but like sex was fine, but other things weren't fine.

43:55 - Sam (Host)

If, if that makes sense, yeah, absolutely yeah, because, like I think there is, I mean, and also there's just like the perception that anything outside of the sex act because obviously, like that's for your husband's pleasure and for procreation, right, like that's usually the only two reasons why you would have sex, even within a marriage, and so to do anything outside of that would imply that you might also be getting something out of this shocking but like that's antithesis as well, to like what some of those teachings were, and so I think there's a very big difference, I think, between experiencing sex and embracing sexuality as well, like they're obviously, I think, different experiences for people.

44:52

Um, but it sounds a little bit like you know, that sort of like cliche saying of you can take the person out of the church, but you can't take the church out of the person, and so like going into different spaces of like being able to choose whether you want to go to church, but you don't get to do that guilt free without feeling like you have any sort of like emotional consequences. Um, to that you said that you didn't go on mission. Was that a choice that you felt like you could make?

45:24 - Daisy (Guest)

oh no, I didn't have a choice in that matter. I was told I couldn't go because, um, I was sexually assaulted and they said that that was a. I was too high risk to go on a mission because I could relapse, or relapse, daisy.

45:48 - Sam (Host)

Oh my god. I've had so many like things like in this vein of like, where abuse and assault is like blamed on the victim. Oh yeah, okay, let's go back to the relapse. I so relapse.

46:04 - Daisy (Guest)

Hell, like, well, after I was sexually assaulted I had I did other things with other people because in my brain it was the more people I touch after, the further away it gets. And so I obviously confessed to that. But like I was repenting for being assaulted and so I was like, but that one wasn't my fault, like why am I being punished? And I'm in the end I'm glad I didn't go on a mission because I don't think I would have been able to handle that. But like I didn't have a choice in the matter, I was told that I couldn't go.

46:42

And it's hard because the bishop that I started the repentance process with I had known my entire life, he was really good friends with my dad. And then we moved and I had to start over again with another bishop. And then that bishop went to the stake president, who was like best, best friends with my dad, because my dad was in the stake presidency and the stake president and my dad were co-workers outside of the church. So like I'm like there's no way you're not telling my dad these things, which is like I don't want him to know all these things. So it's kind of like not only did you take away my ability to go on a mission and prove that I'm a good little Mormon girl now and that I'm quote unquote repented and I'm better. But like you've also just bared my secrets to my dad, most likely and I don't have confirmation of that, but like it's very highly likely- in those circles, so like it was just an overall terrible, terrible experience um, are you comfy if I ask another question about that?

47:50 - Sam (Host)

yeah, what was that experience like? What was the experience like? Because I have heard obviously horrific stories about what happens when people disclose sexual abuse or sexual assault. Um to religious leadership, irrespective of you know the faith or religion of origin. Um, and so what was that like for you to do that? Because it takes an immense amount of bravery to do that in the first place.

48:22 - Daisy (Guest)

It was hard, mostly because I felt very judged because I had known them, known him my whole life. And then the situation was kind of different because I didn't come forward to repent. My abuser went to my bishop and then my bishop called my dad, because it's a whole situation. My abuser wanted to meet my dad and ask for my hand in marriage, even though I was only 17. It's a whole thing, and so I didn't even get to come forward. It was not a choice I made, and so they were like well, you lied, and so now you have to repent longer.

49:08

And I don't feel like and maybe it's just because I'm hoping they didn't I'm, I didn't have to explain anything in graphic detail and I'm hoping they didn't like get any pleasure from my pain. But I didn't have to explain anything in graphic detail and I'm hoping they didn't like get any pleasure from my pain. But I didn't have to explain things in graphic detail. Thank goodness to either of them, but like one bishop was like a videographer and the other one works for a food company. So I'm like I don't feel like you're equipped to handle these situations at all, handle these situations at all. Like I don't, like I'm not even gonna tell my parents everything, because they're also not equipped to handle this.

49:47

So it was just, it was awkward and like they're trying to give me all this like life advice and I'm like you have no clue, though you don't know what this is like. You don't know the full story because you're not going to believe my side of the story. Yeah, so it was just very, and then I don't know if they told anybody, but I felt very judged afterwards, especially because I had to tell my young women's leaders because we were going to girls camp and court proceedings were happening and my parents, like I, didn't want to go to girls camp because my anxiety was like he's going to follow you there, which I don't know how he would have now, but like in the moment, I had no idea. But like my parents ended up having to come and have me sign a document and so everybody ended up finding out about it and I was looked at differently and I was just like I don't want people to know because they don't want to help. They just pity me and I become the testimony story.

50:53 - Sam (Host)

yeah, yeah oh, I mean like I'm sitting here going like it, like not only was there just like stereotypical, like what we see in church spaces, of like that victim blaming, but also like the core, fundamental, and this is how we know that they were not in any way equipped to deal is because, like you know, the fundamental ways, um, to help someone in that space is one, believe them. But also like you put the power and control back into your hands and so like you didn't have control over, like, who was told and how they were told, and you know there was no autonomy for you in that situation, and so like that's heartbreaking and I'm curious what healing from that has been like for you and reclaiming some of those things well, I started by seeing a trauma therapist that was not Mormon, yeah and after I told her how it was handled, she was like, right, okay, we have a lot of stuff to unpack here, and we didn't really get into religious trauma because we're mostly handling the sexual assault.

52:15 - Daisy (Guest)

But some of that had to do with how things were handled church-wise. When I told her how it was handled, she was like that sounds almost illegal in a way, and I was like, yeah, she didn't grow up Mormon. She had. She didn't really have any idea, even though she was in Utah, and so she was like that's how they're operating over there. And I was like that's, that's really when things started to click that I was like, oh, this is not okay. The way that the church operates is not okay.

52:47

The way that things were handled with me was not okay, and if things with me weren't handled the right way, then other people's situations are not being handled the right way. So I told her how I thought I thought I had become a sex addict because any sexual thoughts and feelings were considered wrong, and she was like no, it's very common for victims of trauma to feel more sexual. She's like, and you also were repressed and it wasn't talked about. So she's like it's not those feelings you're having aren't bad, it's how you go about using them that makes it good or bad.

53:27

And I was like, okay, well, like I had no idea what an orgasm was. I had no idea what it felt like until I got married, even though I had a long-term boyfriend like I'm still just now like reclaiming my sexuality from that because I had a lot of trauma around sex. And then we had three kids within four years, because that's what we were told we were supposed to do, and so my body wasn't for pleasure at that point either, it was for making babies. And so I still am coming out of the mindset of my body is mine to do with what I want, and sexual feelings aren't wrong, especially because I have a safe, um, brilliant, amazing partner to help me overcome all these things yeah, and also just create space for you to explore your sexuality in a safe way.

54:32 - Sam (Host)

For you, um, as well is, you know, everything that we know is that if we can reclaim sex in a safe way, then you know, you know actually that can, you know, help leaps and bounds in terms of recovery. It's, I'm sort of like piecing a couple of things together. When you got married, was your husband a Mormon.

54:58 - Daisy (Guest)

We both so the timeline for us is I broke up with my boyfriend of about eight months in the middle of March. My husband and I met at the end of March, we got engaged at the beginning of May and we got married in August.

55:12

And Mormons move quick, right, yeah, very, but we would have gotten married. We were going to get married in November, but my mom was like you need to get married in August because I don't want you to slip up. And she was that was awfully, that was a valid concern, to be fair to her. But like we my husband, I look back now and we're like if we would have slipped up it, like it wouldn't, we would still be together, we still love each other. But like, we look back and we're like we should not have gotten married that fast, we should not have jumped that fast. But like, it's worked out for us. But he was a virgin. He didn't know a lot about sex either and my knowledge was very limited to inexperienced or just, I think, selfish, was more previous partners. And so we've been figuring it out together, yeah, but yeah, he was mormon.

56:10

I had to go through the repentance process. We almost didn't get married in the temple because of me, because of my past, my previous relationship, and so, yeah, I thought if we didn't get married in the temple, my husband would resent me and would leave me and wouldn't want to get married to me. And he assures me now that that's not what would have happened, but I'm like we don't know. We were 20, like there's no way of knowing what would have happened. But I know for sure my parents would have been very judgmental if we hadn't gotten married in the temple. Yeah, so there was a lot of pressure leading up to our wedding and, yeah, it's not my dream day yeah, I mean I'm curious how you look back on like, because I know like it doesn't.

56:59

I think for people it might be helpful temple marriages like or temple weddings don't look like typical weddings, right it's like very specific type of wedding yes, so my wedding dress wasn't temple approved because it didn't have long sleeves and I think it might have been the wrong shade of white, and so I had to wear the temple clothing which, essentially, is just like a nightgown, in my opinion. That's what it looks like, that's what mine looked like, and then, like you have like a leaf apron and then I have a veil and he has, like it looks like a chef's hat and then a sash, like it looks ridiculous. And I was like this is what I look like Getting married. Why did I like? Why did I buy a dress if this is like?

57:48

It was also hard because my siblings couldn't be in the temple because they weren't considered worthy, and my nieces and nephews, who were my world at the time, couldn't be in the temple because they weren't old enough. And I'm like I wish we would have just had a civil ceremony, because then the people that I love the most could have been there, because I don't care about my aunt and uncle, who I don't talk to, but they were invited because they're temple worthy and it was important. I guess I I really my mom planned my wedding basically like I did not have much of a say in it because it was too overwhelming and I knew that if I went with what I actually wanted, she wouldn't approve it.

58:32 - Sam (Host)

So did it actually feel like a wedding or did it just feel like a ritual?

58:39 - Daisy (Guest)

it felt like a ritual and my grandpa was is was a temple sealer, so he sealed us, so that was special, but like it was really strange, he fully kissed me on the mouth right before we went in. My grandpa did and like I was like is that part? Is that everybody gets a kiss on the mouth before? And like I mean now I like an old I honestly don't remember a whole lot from my wedding day Like it's blocked out, I don't.

59:14

I don't know what happened, because like it was so strange and I did my endowment session the day before, so that was my first time going through the temple and the whole time I was like what am I doing? Like what are we doing? And then that was really when I was like yeah, there's a reason people think that this is a cult because it's. How can you look at this, how can you go through this and not think that it is? Like how are? I was sitting in the room full of people and I was like how are you guys not thinking that this is cult behavior? You're just like this is normal, this is just a normal Thursday, like no yeah, it's normal.

59:55 - Sam (Host)

While you're in it, I mean, it sounds like you were probably far enough out of it and removed from it enough that you were able to see some of those things, but yet still, that sense of um, what I'm hearing is probably a mix of guilt and obligation and fear as to still going through with it. Yeah, yeah, um. So what has it been like for you to like and I'm going to use the analogy that I know you use in the books that I hear a lot of Mormons use, which is that broken shelf analogy and so, like, what were the things that you were putting on your shelf and what eventually broke it in terms of that belief system?

:: 00:42

I think my shelf came broken, to be honest honest with you because it really didn't take a lot but like, after I was sexually assaulted and I went through that experience, that was when I was like, I don't think that this is like. If I have a child who goes through this, this is not how I would want this to be handled. And then one thing with my siblings and the whole blended family, like I would ask anybody who would listen am I sealed, like, do we know? If I'm sealed to my siblings, is my mom sealed to my siblings because, like, her and her ex-husband had their ceiling broken so she could be sealed to my dad? So I'm'm like am I sealed to my siblings? And they're like well, you'll find out in the millennium, god knows all. Yeah, and I'm like, but I want to know now Because, honestly, I don't really want to be sealed to some of my siblings.

:: 01:39

Can I pick and choose. Is this pick and mix lolly bag where I can pick who I'm sealed to?

:: 01:47

no, really I was like, and the whole like, growing up with my siblings. It was you chose to be in this family and I'd be like, well, why would I choose this? Why you knew it was gonna happen and you chose to come to earth. Well, why, why would I choose this? Knowing what I'm gonna go through like, I cannot imagine myself up in heaven being like, yeah, that's a great experience to have. It's a great experience to feel like your siblings hate you because you're pressuring them to go to church. And it's a great experience to have your older sister bully you like constantly or like feel like your mom doesn't actually like love you. Why would I choose that? And so my shelf like was splintering, cracking my whole life. But then I started learning about like Joseph Smith and how fraudulent he was, and I was like and we built a whole church around this.

:: 02:51

Yeah.

:: 02:52

And then I realized I was bisexual. I was pregnant with my second baby and I saw a tweet and she was like so you know, most women don't find other women like super attractive, right? And I was like oh, I did not know that actually yeah, well, I mean also, why would you though?

:: 03:17

yeah, I'm like I've never thought about that, yeah. And so then I started thinking and I was like you know? And so then I asked my husband. I was like, do you find other men attractive? And he was like, yeah, there's some handsome dudes. And I was like, oh, I don't think you're straight either. My guy. And he was like it took him a while he's okay with me, saying he's also bisexual. But I was like we're both like huh, most like other people don't think that.

:: 03:53

So then I realized I was bisexual and around the time I realized I was bisexual, one of the leaders came out saying like grab your muskets against, like gay people, basically. And around that same time also BYU's honor code like retracted the same sex attraction clause, but then they put it back in. And so all these people BYU came out and then BYU put the clause back in, and so then they didn't feel safe and I was like I don't like that. I think that was the thing that like completely broke my shelf, as I was like for a church that claims to love everybody, you're not proving that. And then I also learned like their mistreatment of the indigenous people in Utah, like the in the Indian quote, like adoption program where they would adopt like the indigenous children into white families and kind of like, because they thought people with darker skin tones were evil and how black people didn't get the priesthood. Like learning all this problematic stuff, and I was just like, but why?

:: 05:09

I am uh like hearing you talk about like discovering your sexuality. Were you far enough away from the church or like not distant like? When I say far enough, I mean sort of like emotionally, like distanced enough that you didn't feel like awful about yourself when you had that discovery, or was there still like internal tension around it?

:: 05:37

I think there was a lot of internal tension, but I was already married to a man, so I was already in a hetero presenting marriage and so I feel like if I was single and realized that I would have a lot more of an internal battle, but I was like I'm not gonna leave my husband. Yeah, so my sexuality matters, but I'm not. I don't know how to explain it. It matters but it doesn't matter to the point where, like I'm not going to be with a woman unless my husband transitions to a woman. If he were to come out as transgender then that would be a different story. Like I'm not going to leave my husband. So I feel like that helped. I was secure already. I didn't have to. Like I came out to my family still, but I didn't have to because I wasn't ever going. So there's still some internalized like homophobia and biphobia, but I think being in a steady, healthy relationship really helped?

:: 06:43

Yeah, I mean, I guess it. It shifts and changes the way that it impacts your day-to-day life and, um, you know, I've heard other people who are in hetero relationships refer to it as it's almost like a protection. Um, that from um. You know a lot of the other stuff that comes with you know, being in queer relationships and things like that. What was it like to come out to your family?

:: 07:12

Oh, that was not a good time. I came out on Twitter first and apparently my sister was stalking my Twitter. She sent screenshots to my brother, who then sent the screenshots to my mom, and then nobody talked to me about it until I told my mom. I was like I'm coming out on Facebook, I'm bisexual. And she was like I know, you think you are. And then she goes. She looks at my husband and she goes well, did you, are you okay with it? And he was like sure, like it doesn't matter to me. And she she was her, her. Next.

:: 07:47

We were living with my parents at the time and she was like if you bring one of your little friends over here to cheat on your husband? And I was like, first of all, I don't have friends. Second of all, why would I bring them to your house if I were to cheat on my husband? Like I'm not and like I'm not going to cheat on my husband. That's not what that means at all. So it was just. And then I had my baby.

:: 08:13

At that point was almost a year old and I had a two-year-old, so two and almost a year old. Well, I don't know how old they were, but I had a two-year-old. So two and almost a year old. Well, I don't know how old they were, but I had two kids at the time and she was like well, what are they going to think? And I was like, well, I'm raising them to know that they can love whoever they want to love. They can be whoever they are Like. If they come out as transgender, that's not going to make me love them any less. I'm not going to try to change them If they're cis and they're all assigned male at birth. If they love another man, I'm not like that's not going to change anything for me. They can love who they love they don't want to. They can get married. They can have a relationship with multiple people. As long as everybody's a consenting adult, I don't really care.

:: 09:05

People are who they are and so like as you. It sounds like you and your husband, since COVID and I mean to be fair like COVID fucked everything up for a lot of people in terms of like so many people like left churches in droves of different denominations and religions, but it sounds like you have been going through a process of like what's the word Almost like desensitizing and pulling away from the belief system. Do you consider yourself still a Mormon?

:: 09:43

No, we had our records removed. I I'm no longer affiliated and it's hard because we are surrounded by it now. We had moved to Texas for a few years and it was nice. In Texas there are a lot of different churches of a lot of different denominations but, I never felt like pressured by them.

:: 10:05

I would never had people knocking on my door telling me that I needed to come to church like I did here. So it was, it was nice and everybody did like. Religion is very prominent there, but it's not as in your face.

:: 10:20

It feels like what was the process like to get your records removed, because I know that that's not usually a pretty smooth and dandy experience for a lot of people well, we just went to.

:: 10:34

I think it was quitmormonorg. I love the name of that, just like straight to the point, no, like beating around the bush it's a legal group that does it pro bono, helps you remove your records, so we I think it took maybe almost a year to have the process completed, but I didn't find it to be super hard, super difficult yeah, how has it impacted your relationship with your family?

:: 11:05

um, my in-laws I'm pretty sure they're still trying to send missionaries to us. I don't know, they're on a mission right now so we don't see them very often, but they are not kind about it, my father-in-law's especially. He is very abrasive about us coming back to church and my parents. My dad doesn't talk about it, he does not like confrontation, but my mom will like subtly try to sneak things into conversation and she makes a lot of off-handed remarks, like, for example, we were in her garage she was showing us like fabric samples and I was like, well, why don't you just take a time to organize these? Because she's like I never have time to do this and I was like, well, what do you do all day? Like you're an empty nester. Like, what do you do? She goes. Well, if you were religious you would understand. And I was like I have three kids. Um, I, and also we were religious.

:: 12:02

My husband was like I served a mission for two years. You are in the primary. Like you, you play the piano on Sundays. Arguably you're not that busy. So it was just like she just makes a lot of offhand remarks and she go. She asked me if I wanted to go to this temple open house and I said no, and she sounded so disappointed and I was like why would I? Why would I want to? What about my lifestyle? Makes you think now that I would want to go to a temple open house?

:: 12:36

yeah, so yeah, I mean, like how does that impact you, like how do you feel about that?

:: 12:46

um, it's annoying, but that's she doesn't.

:: 12:52

My parents don't do it as much as I expected that they would.

:: 12:57

Yeah, and I don't know if they're just like building up to something else, but it's like when we go to their house, they have pictures of jesus everywhere.

:: 13:07

My mom will ask my kids, like do you remember him? And my kids are like no, and so like that makes me more upset than when she asks me if I want to go to a temple open house, because I'm like my kids don't know who jesus and you're trying to make them know who Jesus is. And like we make it a point where she can't have, like she won't be babysitting them when it's a Sunday because she will take them to church and I don't want my kids at church. I probably won't ever set foot in a church again. That's just not something I want to do and I don't want my kids there when they're older. And if they decide they want to, I'll highly advise against it, but like that's their decision to make. So it's like don't try to make them fit into a mold that you want me to fit in yeah because they're not like your second chance at getting me to join the church.

:: 14:03

Yeah, yeah and yeah, that second chance experience is is so common and, at its core, is actually really harmful and manipulative as well. Okay, so how did we go from all of that to now writing super spicy books? Cause it's quite a shift, daisy.

:: 14:29

I have found that the ex Mormon, ex fundamentalist to spicy author pipeline is pretty common, though, and I think it is a way of reclaiming your sexuality and processing things for me like writing, writing, loving the center. I started out as Eddie Munson fan fiction, but because, like in Stranger Things, dustin's girlfriend Susie is Mormon and she has all these siblings, so I was like, well, what if Susie had a sibling that wanted to get out of Utah? So she moves to Indiana wherever it takes place and she meets Eddie Munson, who's like the antithesis of everything she's taught to look for in a man. So that's kind of how Wes and Ellie's story came to be. Yeah, and I started like thinking, what if I had left Utah at that same age, instead of just moving an hour away to an even more Mormon populated area? Like what if I had to just completely move states? Yeah, so it was a way to process. I was also in the midst of postpartum depression and writing really helped bring me out of the low places that I was in.

:: 15:47

Yeah, how much? And I know I'm sort of like asking this question, knowing that you wrote a little bit about it in the third book that, um, there is more of you in Emma's story than the others, but are there, is there a bit of you in Emma's story than the others? But are there, is there a bit of you in all of these stories?

:: 16:07

Oh, yeah, for sure, especially within the FMCs, the female main characters I put. I dumped a lot of religious trauma into Ellie and then a lot of other trauma into Emma and then Hannah. Hannah, I put a lot of my not a lot of myself into, but a lot of the things that her parents said to her, or like her ex-husband had said to her. I've been told things similar but like Hannah is more based off of some of my cousins who and like Ellie is also like it's followed.

:: 16:51

The series follows cousins. So my cousin, like I, have specific cousins that I've kind of assigned characters to, even though in if you put them side by side they would not be. Yeah, you wouldn't be able to recognize that they're the same. Like they're assigned, but like it's also my cousins and I have had a lot of similar experiences in the church. So it's like my experiences are my cousins are Ellie's and Hannah's and Emma's, and then Mackenzie is the fourth FMC in the book, but the fourth book also has more of the men's perspective of leading the church. So Talmadges is more of like my husband's experience.

:: 17:28

I was about to say is there a little bit of your husband in that? Oh yes, yeah yes, yeah, my.

:: 17:36

How does he feel about that? He loves it.

:: 17:39

He, he's very happy to help however he can yeah, um, how have like, how has it been for you? And I asked you know, when I interviewed Sarah in her episode, I asked a similar question in that, like you are writing it, like I mean I've read more explicit, but like explicit, like sex scenes and experiences, and so, like, what has it been like for you to write that? Because, like you know, the repression and everything leading up to that space, like there is a reclamation there, but is it? Is it? Is it hard for you to do that? Or is it now just, you know, normal for you?

:: 18:23

in the beginning it was hard. When I was first writing I was like I have no idea what I'm doing, I don't know how to write this, and words like cock and pussy and dick were still very like foreign to me and felt dirty, and now like they have a certain dirtiness, but it's not as like oh, I can't say that. It's more, just like I'm not gonna say that in my everyday vernacular, I'm going to say that in specific situations, but like I, it's lost. It's like oh, I can't say that yeah, it's just like every other word right same with curse words.

:: 19:07

Like I regularly say, fuck yeah, all the time my kids hear it, but they don't say it because, like we don't, I feel like if we were to be like you can't say that. Like they would want to say it more, and I know some people are have different rules around curse words with their kids, but, like I would rather my kids be desensitized to it because I feel like they would want to say it more and be more curious about reactions if they didn't hear it. And we've had conversations about like you can't, like school's not the place to say that don't, just don't, tell someone to fuck off unless, like you're, the situation calls for it and they're still learning. But like, reclaiming those words that we weren't allowed to say has been helpful for not only me but my partner as well has been.

:: 19:58

yeah, I mean, I think it's like a, like a conversation around. We educate rather than we ignore and avoid, and I think we learn far more by educating than just, you know, pushing it under the rug and not talking about it. Was writing the books a bit of an education for you as well? Like a sex education that you never got the first time around?

:: 20:24

Yes, like a sex education that you never got the first time around. Yes, so I started reading romance books. Um, before I started writing Loving the Sinner, well, I was reading, I was reading fan fiction, and then I moved to romance books and then I was also reading romance books and fan fiction and I was like I didn't know that people wrote these things. I didn't know that there was a whole like online forum and I didn't know that people were publishing books with explicit sex scenes, because I wasn't allowed to read that. It was always porn is so learning.

:: 21:05

That was interesting to be like. Oh, and I feel like the first few times I read a sex scene, I was like this is this feels wrong still, but at the same time, like I was like but it's not, like I'm not. It almost felt like I was intruding on somebody else for the first few times and then I was like I'm not, this is, this is here for that. These are not real people like I'm not peeping in anybody's window like it's fine peeping in anybody's window like it's fine it's not creepy, it's not as creepy, as it seems on the surface.

:: 21:49

Yes, um, uh, like I want to ask one more question before I get to like the final question. I ask everybody but um, what impact has it had on, like your family and friends, knowing that you write these stories?

:: 22:04

Um, my, not a lot of people do know that. Um, my mom knows she doesn't like it. Uh, she won't talk about it though, and she keeps asking me when I'm going to write a quote clean romance. I'm like probably never. Um, but you can, I can black out the things that you don't want to read. Yeah, and she was like no, so I don't know. Like she has a twin sister that she tells everything to. I don't know if she's told the twin and then the twin tells everybody else, like I don't know who knows at this point, but nobody says anything.

:: 22:35

Um, my cousins know my cousin won't read my books because she feels like it's intruding on my personal life, and I'm like but it's, it's not me. Yeah, but like, at the same time, I get it like I would also probably be a little skeptical of reading something. Yeah, I see of hers, but my cousins have been supportive. My husband tells all of his co-workers that I write books and they've been very supportive. So I've had a few people from high school who I felt like I could tell, and they've been super supportive. So I've had a overall positive experience. But my parents just won't bring it up, which is yeah, it is what it is.

:: 23:25

I actually have an adjacent question. As you were talking, what has been the response like from the ex-mormon community online reading these stories?

:: 23:34

I've had mostly positive. Some people don't think that my experiences are realistic because, like in loving the sinner, ellie was fine with wes using a vibrator on her and they're like she would feel guilt and I was like that wasn't my experience though like, everybody's experience is different, but overall people have been like oh wow, I didn't know that this was like a sub genre of romance and I was like me either.

:: 24:03

I didn't know that people wrote about religious trauma and I decided that I was just gonna do it. But people, people, even people who aren't Mormon have related to it and felt seen. So it's I'm writing my first book that has no religious trauma in it and and it's been very difficult.

:: 24:26

Hell yes.

:: 24:27

I've used, I imagine it would be a very different experience writing that I'm like, how do people I don't know how people have not had religious trauma? Like. I'm like what do you mean? You went your whole life without being told, yeah, that you need, like you need to cover your shoulders, otherwise your shoulders are pornography. My cousin married a man who has no religious trauma and she's just like what is that like for you? Because I can't imagine it?

:: 25:07

I can't imagine it. Yeah, I think it is hard to imagine. When you have only ever experienced one perspective or was so immersed in that perspective, it's hard to imagine anything else. Um, but I mean, I imagine it would be a cool experience being able to write something that doesn't have to intimately, you know. You know pull on your pain points and and your own trauma, and all of that would be a really nice experience. Weird, but nice in a different way, I imagine. Yeah, okay, I finished these episodes with some encouragement for listeners. So what would you say to someone who has and I'm going to tailor it a little bit um, what would you say to someone who has and I'm going to tailor it a little bit- what would you say to someone whose shelf has just broken?

:: 25:53

essentially about the Mormon church.

:: 25:54

Find at least one person that you can just spill all your worries, all your concerns. They don't have to know, they don't have to know the answers to your questions, because I ask my husband questions all the time and he's like I don't know the answer. I'm like, well, I just need to get it out. But just find somebody, one person and that can help hold your hand through this, because my husband and I did not have somebody else really until like a year into our journey when I found out my cousins had left the church and so we were navigating, leaving and all these feelings kind of by ourselves, and like drinking coffee was really scary and trying alcohol was really scary and trying to navigate.

:: 26:48

We have kids, so that was a new navigation for us as well. But just having someone, even if they don't know what religious trauma like, if they've never experienced religious trauma, having somebody that you know is in your corner is helpful because it can be isolating, especially if you grew up in a family or in a friend group, completely immersed in the church. If nobody else is leaving and nobody else can see what you see, it's hard. Yeah it.

:: 27:20

Um, I love. I love what you're saying, because so much of what was born like what this podcast was born from, was like, time and time again, hearing people say I just, you can find even just one person to come alongside you, irrespective of their perspective, but to create a safe space for you. So I love that. Thank you for joining me, thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and I am so looking forward to the next book. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure and I am so looking forward to the next book. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.