The Apostate Barbie

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface. Welcome, Mickey. Thanks for joining me.

Micki: 00:01:42

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Sam: 00:01:44

I'm really excited about this episode because your Instagram is just delightful and it's just. I mean, it's the most. I feel like it's just a really wholesome and bright way to talk about some really, like, heavy stuff, which is just nice.

Micki: 00:02:00

Thank you.

Sam: 00:02:02

And so before we sort of get stuck into it, perhaps it might be good to sort of just go, where in the world are you right now?

Micki: 00:02:12

Oh, I am currently in London in the uk.

Sam: 00:02:15

Lovely. London is. Have you always lived in London?

Micki: 00:02:20

I just moved here in September last year.

Sam: 00:02:22

Right, okay.

Micki: 00:02:25

No, and I've never been here before either, so.

Sam: 00:02:30

Okay. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I've. My wife and I went to London for part of our honeymoon and we just fell in love with the city.

It's so beautiful and so rich in history and culture and all of that sort of thing, but, yeah, it's love. Are you enjoying it so far?

Micki: 00:02:49

I love it. It's. It's really cool.

And it's nice being on the, like, in the northern hemisphere and enjoying, like, Christmas and Halloween and, like, not only could I not enjoy that before as a witness, but also in the down under, it was flip. So Christmas to me was going to the beach. Yes. It's hot.

Sam: 00:03:09

It's hot. Yeah, Absolutely.

Well, you've nicely Alluded there a little bit, which is that I was just saying to you before we hit record that you are my first former Jehovah's Witness, which I'm really excited about for a lot of different reasons. But I like to start with a really broad, vague question of where does your story start?

Micki: 00:03:35

Okay, well, my mom started studying with the Witnesses when I was five years old, and she was pretty on and off with it for about 10 years, and then she got baptized. But during that time, from the age of 5 to 15, for me, it became like my life. And I unfortunately became pretty indoctrinated into the belief system.

And then when I was 19, I got baptized, and I was very into it from 19 to 35 when I woke up and left.

Sam: 00:04:14

Yeah, okay.

Micki: 00:04:15

Which was in: 2020

Sam: 00:04:18

Oh, wow. Okay. So super. Yeah. Super new. Yeah. I mean, the pandemic just, like, took so many people out of churches.

Micki: 00:04:28

Oh, my God.

Sam: 00:04:29

Yeah, it just happened, like, it obviously, like, we saw what happened in terms of, like, evangelical Christianity in the U.S. but, yeah, the pandemic just pulled so many people out of all sorts of different churches. But.

Okay, take me back to, like, when you were younger, what sort of messaging?

And it might be helpful to sort of, like, talk a little bit about the type of beliefs that you were being taught at that age from the Jehovah's Witness.

Micki: 00:05:01

Well, so I'll give you a very brief and not entirely, like, intricate explanation of things that they believe, because I know that there'll be people in the comments if they've. If they've been a Witness and are still believing in it, they'll be like, that's not true. But it is true. Yeah, that's.

Anyway, basically, Witnesses believe that the end of the world is very near and that they have the truth, that they call it God's one true organization.

And when the end of the world comes, all of the wicked, worldly people will be destroyed, and we will then start to live on a paradise earth that will be restored to what God originally intended when he created, like, Adam and Eve. And to survive Armageddon, if you're a living Witness now, you have to be going to the meetings.

You have to do field service, which is the door knocking. You have to spend your time studying all of the material that they have, preaching only hanging out with other Jehovah's Witnesses. Oh, my goodness.

It's like, so much like, there's so many different layers to this. They basically teach that you. You can't have sex before marriage. You can only marry if you're, you know, man and woman getting married.

Even when you do get married, there's a bunch of rules and stuff behind the scenes of what you can and can't do in your own bedroom. They teach that Jehovah, God hates homosexuals. So you're not allowed to be gay as a witness.

And there is a term that they have as non practicing gays because people would be. But they weren't allowed to act on it.

So there are people in congregations that you would know that are not straight and they weren't allowed to be their authentic selves. You're not allowed to do anything like, I've got pink hair, anything. To show your individuality.

You have to basically what they say is put on the new personality and be a robot. Jehovah's Witness. Yeah. And everything you do, you can be policed by other members in your congregation.

Like, oh, you shouldn't be watching that movie or you shouldn't be listening to that music. What will Jehovah think? You know, no birthdays, no Halloween, no Christmas. The only thing that they celebrated was Jesus death.

Yeah, I think that's a rough. Yeah, rough, rough overview.

Sam: 00:07:49

Yeah. What was it like for you personally as like a little girl growing up in this environment? What do you remember?

Micki: 00:07:57

It was very scary and boring.

Sam: 00:08:02

Yeah.

Micki: 00:08:03

Where's the fun, Mickey?

Sam: 00:08:04

Like, it just sounds so dry.

Micki: 00:08:07

It was very like, you know, if I could put a. It's very corporate, dull and gray and black and white, so. And I'm a person of vibrance and I want to have everywhere and diversity.

And there's like almost none of that in the Witnesses. And they had like a Bible study aid called the My Book of Bible Stories for Children.

And it was filled with these graphic, vivid descriptions of death, destruction, things that have happened in the Bible, things that the Bible prophesies will happen, what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe will happen. And they're pretty gruesome. Yeah. So they're like images that have sort of that a lot of other ex Witnesses say, you know, haunt their nightmares.

Because it was that. Yeah. Freaky.

Sam: 00:09:01

I mean, I think, you know, I hear time and time again, irrespective of the denomination or the brand of faith, if there is any sort of like end time doctrine, it's terrifying for children to hear that and to like, you know, they're like your children. Right.

So like I sit here as a therapist going like, you have no ability to like cognitively understand what is being presented to you, except that like, it's just Being presented as like an eternal torture or an eternal separation from those that you love. And it's like Also like a 6 and a 7 year old is going to be absolutely terrified by that. Is that it's like, like for you.

Micki: 00:09:52

Yeah, definitely. And then it becomes like part of like this is the knowledge set that you have that you think or know is true.

And then you're terrified that you're not doing enough, like growing up as a teenager and you're being told to get baptized. If you don't get baptized, you're not going to make it through Armageddon, you know, you'll die.

Thankfully, at least the Witnesses believe that when you die, you just die. That's it. Like, there's no torture, there's no hell in the belief system. You're just dead forever and there's no hope for you.

Sam: 00:10:26

Right.

Micki: 00:10:28

But I mean, that's a little bit nicer than I feel like we're picking. Yeah, tiny bit. But it's, it's very like you feel like you have to, you have to constantly be doing things and striving for more in the, in the faith.

And I would say in the truth, but I'm trying to avoid using the cult speak. Yeah. So yeah, you think.

Like, I remember vividly being a teenager around the time of Y2K and everyone was terrified that like the computers would stop working, that was the end of the world, blah, blah, blah. And as a Witness, I was like, oh my God, it could be like the end of the world and Armageddon could be coming.

And there was kind of that little buzz going around at the time and just thinking, I'm not baptized and my mom doesn't always go to meetings and what if Jehovah judges me? Because you're kind of taught that your parents, you fall under their umbrella of their spirituality. And you know, she wasn't that good.

She was what they would call weak spiritually.

Sam: 00:11:36

Right.

Micki: 00:11:37

And I was, oh my God, I'm gonna die because my mom doesn't always go to the meetings and I'm not baptized and, and like that kind of a lot like for a 14, 15 year old to be dealing with alongside having to deal with normal 14, 15 year old stuff.

Sam: 00:11:55

Yeah.

Micki: 00:11:56

And it's just, yeah, it, it definitely plays a part.

And then you kind of think, okay, well the end of the system's not going to come maybe right then, but it'll be definitely in the new, in the next four or five years and then come to be like 35 and being like, oh my God, I didn't think that I would be 35. In this. In this world is still.

Sam: 00:12:17

Yeah, yeah.

Micki: 00:12:20

The whole mind.

Sam: 00:12:22

Yeah. What was it like for you as a teenager?

Trying to like build an identity, but you're part of a system that works on, I guess, like a cookie cutter mold type of. And like a identity, like you are supposed to just be, you know, like you said, not.

It's not about having personality or part of, you know, your identity. You're just spitting a mole.

Micki: 00:12:49

I think because I've got ADHD and I. I'm very, like, not able to be in a cookie cutter bottle.

I would try to do things and I know that people just looked at me as different, like in terms of the Witnesses, because my mum wasn't all that regular going to the meetings, but I tried to be. So I would go with other Witnesses in my congregation and. And you know, to make sure that I was always there.

They still viewed me as spiritually weak because I didn't have the. The generational family behind me that most of them did. Had been in Witnesses for a long time. I was viewed as like the daughter of a study.

So I was never good enough.

And then on the flip side, I also wasn't really allowed to have worldly, the normal people friends at school, but I did, like, it's just natural because there are people next to you and I'm a yappa. So I was like constantly making friends, but also very aware of the fact that I'm not allowed to hang out with them.

There are other Jehovah's Witnesses at the school who hang out with each other, but they're very boring and, you know, they would view it as, oh, she's the daughter of a study and she's not that great, so we don't hang out with her too much. And then, yeah, on the other side of it, like, in my head, I'm like, these people are going to die Armageddon.

Like, I'm allowed to be friends with them. I should be trying to convert them, but I don't. It wasn't comfortable for me to do that, so I wouldn't.

And I would just be like, oh, I'm just happy being friends with my friends at school and trying to figure out how to be acceptable as a Jehovah's Witness in the Kingdom hall to make friends as a Witness. Which eventually did come. But around the time of my mid teens, I was. It was just very awkward and weird.

Sam: 00:14:52

Yeah, it sounds like it would have been really tricky to just find your place in schooling and find your place in, you know, friendship groups and circles because you're not.

You're not strong enough as a Jehovah's Witness, but you're also not secular or I guess, like, the worldly people, and they're, like, viewing you as a job.

Micki: 00:15:16

Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:17

And so it's like, where do you fit in that?

Micki: 00:15:21

Yeah.

And I think, like, because Witnesses, you're not allowed to do extracurricular activities, basically, all your time has to be spent with Witnesses or at home studying about being a Witness.

So it's not like you can join a sport or anything like that to sort of help figure out, A, what you want to do, or B, like, hang out with other people and broaden your worldview. Yeah. So it was. It was hard when.

If we fast forward a bit to when I was leaving, trying to figure out who I am, because I never had a chance to be who I am or to find that out. So, yeah, it's fun now that I get to, but it's a bit weird doing that.

I just turned 39, so, you know, I'm doing things I should have been doing as a teenager.

Sam: 00:16:10

Yeah, yeah.

And there's so much grief attached to that around the lost time as well, that, you know, you should have been able to do that as a teenager, and you was taken away from you. So I imagine there's so much grief there as well.

Micki: 00:16:27

Yeah, quite a bit.

Sam: 00:16:29

Yeah. Yeah. When did. I mean, you said that you got baptized at 19.

And so is that for you, when the beliefs became part of your identity and they weren't just like what you were raised with?

Micki: 00:16:47

Yes, definitely. I tried. So you have to go through a process when you want to get baptized and you have to go to the elders and say, hey, I want to do this.

But before you want to get baptized, you have to become an unbaptized publisher, which is the term for when you're not baptized. And you go door knocking. And then there's an hour or there was an hourly requirement of how much you're supposed to put in at least 10 hours.

If you're doing less than that, they'll be like, come on, you need to do more. So you have to ask to be able to do unbaptized publisher. And then after you've done that for a while, then you can ask to be baptized.

And your meeting attendance, the hours you spend door knocking, the regularity with which you hang out with other Jehovah's Witnesses, all comes into play. So I started asking to be baptized when I was 16.

Sam: 00:17:45

Wow.

Micki: 00:17:46

And they said no a couple of times, which really like, ouch. It hit me quite hard at the time because there was also a separation within the congregation.

I wouldn't be invited to things because I wasn't baptized. And I don't know if that was just my congregation, but I do get the feeling that it was pretty universal.

And yeah, so I, it was like a thing that I had to do to hang out with the people that were around my age.

Sam: 00:18:18

Right.

Micki: 00:18:20

But yeah, eventually they let me get baptized at 19 and yeah, that was when I really threw myself into the religion. I think at home.

My mom was emotionally and physically abusive and I kind of used my getting baptized around the same time that she actually started becoming what they would term as inactive. So she stopped going to meetings, she stopped going field service completely. And I was like, okay, well my mom's not doing well spiritually.

I can try and help her a bit, but I want to do this.

So I'm going to move out and I'm going to throw myself into this and make my friends and the religion my family, because my home life wasn't that great.

Sam: 00:19:07

That's such a common theme. To try and find that sense of belonging and that sense of safety and family in church communities or in faith based communities, right?

Micki: 00:19:20

Yeah, absolutely. It's really hard when you do leave to try to find that without going into another faith based community.

Sam: 00:19:30

Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the things that, like I say, whilst you're in it, churches do community really well.

It's just when you choose to step outside of that that you realize that actually your place in that community was entirely conditional. But while you're in it, it feels really great, you know, it's supposed to feel really great.

Micki: 00:19:53

Yeah.

Sam: 00:19:54

So yeah, I'm curious what it was like for you once you sort of. This was now part of who you were. You were sort of like knee deep in that faith.

How did that change, like your outlook of the world and your view of yourself?

Micki: 00:20:14

I guess I separated my thought myself more from anyone that I did know. In high school. I.

I kept in contact with like maybe one friend I had in high school and basically everyone outside the religion was evil and scary and an agent of Satan who was going to lead me astray. Around the time, not long after I got baptized, maybe a year or so later, I started a new job, hairdressing as an apprentice.

And for me at the time, because all you knew was like, was it compact normativity, like man and woman only? No One's allowed to be gay. If you're gay, it's an abomination, and Jehovah hates it.

But hairdressing is a vocation that there are a lot of gay men in and likely women as well. But at the time, it was a lot of gay men in the salon that I was in. Yeah, it was really hard for me, like, wrestling with that in my head.

I'm like, but there's nothing wrong with. I'm gonna say these people, but I don't mean it like these people. But I know what you mean at that time. Nothing wrong with, like, these people.

Like, they're. This guy. The. The head stylist was, like, amazing, and he was really cool, really free, and really lovely, but obviously gay.

And I worked there with another Jehovah's Witness at the time, but she was a little bit dodgy and was off, like, being a little bit naughty and living a what the Jehovah's Witnesses would call a double life. So he was pretty cool with her.

But I could tell, like, because I was a little bit more sheltered, he was a little bit more careful with how he was around me, but he was still very, very, like, free and authentic. And, like, I love that about people. Like, those are my favorite kind of people now. Yeah. And it was just hard to wrestle with that in my mind.

Like, why is this. This guy supposed to be evil, like, and horrible and someone that Jehovah hates?

And we were taught as Witnesses to hate what Jehovah hates, and they would often use that in alignment with violence. So no violent video games, movies, or homosexuality. So those are the two things that they popularly use this scripture with. And I can't remember.

I don't do Bible stuff now. So. Yeah, I just know that that was Jordan's me. And I was like, I don't. I don't hate these people. I don't hate anyone.

And I don't hate, like, even just a violent movie. Like, it doesn't mean that I'm gonna go out and commit violence. Like, I can just watch it. It's fine.

And so since leaving, the way I've been, child is that, like, I was able to sort of find out more about myself. And, you know, like, I identify as bisexual now.

And, like, I realized, like, going back, this message was so harmful for me at the time, like, because I was basically hating myself and not allowed to think outside the box of I have to marry a man and I have to be on this, like, step ladder or conveyor belt of dating, getting married Having kids, pioneering, which is when they do the. The door knocking for, like, 50 hours a month. Okay. And, like, that was like, those are my goals. Yeah. So, yeah, that was pretty much that.

I don't know where I was going.

Sam: 00:23:54

I never know where I'm going when I start a conversation. So I just go where it. Wherever it lands.

I mean, I've got to ask what it was like for you doing the door knocking, because you don't strike me as the typical evangelistic type of person.

Micki: 00:24:11

I hated it.

And I realized since leaving that a lot of it, like, I mean, a lot of people hate it, but also someone who's neurodivergent, like, you feel like you need to be like, I feel like I was tricking people and being fake at the door, you know, like, being like, here, read this magazine and, like, I'll come back and check on you in a couple weeks, see how it is. And then that's supposed to basically be hooking someone in so that they become a Bible study and then become a Jehovah's Witness.

And I was never good because we would have a midweek meeting. So I don't know if I explained it earlier that meetings are what we call, like, church services. Yeah. So we would have.

When I was younger, there was three, there was a book study where there was a smaller group that would study a certain book from their literature. Then there was the, like, the theocratic ministry school meeting.

And then on Sunday, there was like, the sort of, like, they'd give a talk from the Bible and you study the watchtower.

But at the midweek one, they were training you how to talk to people at the doors, so you'd have, like, little mini presentations and then that sort of grade you on it afterwards. It was only a small part of that meeting, but it was always like, oh, how can you have a conversation with someone and bring it back to the Bible?

And, like, if you see that they have toys in the front yard, maybe focus on something to do with children and. Or if you notice, like, that they have a beautiful garden that talking about, like, oh, wow, isn't your garden lovely?

And then build into, like, creation and God created the earth for us and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I was not good at that stuff. Like, I hated it. So I would always just be like, yeah, I'll let us watch magazine. Do you want it?

And then people be like, yeah, no, I'm like, okay, bye. And then eventually I figured out a hack, which was just offer a free home Bible study because 99.9% of the time, everybody would say no.

And you would look like you're a very good Jehovah's Witness. Like, wow, she's gone straight to offering a Bible study. Oh, my goodness.

Sam: 00:26:26

Nice loopholes. We love the loopholes. I mean, I think.

Yeah, I think it's really interesting for people to know because I think there is this impression from everyone that I know anyway, growing up that, you know, the JWs would knock on your door, but I don't think that people realize just how strategic it is.

And so I think that's a really important thing to note there because, yeah, I think there is this impression that they're just, you know, people just want, like, going from house to house, just wanting to, like, be kind and. And, you know, things like that. But there is strategy involved, right?

Micki: 00:27:10

Oh, yeah, yeah. They have, like, maps, like, territory maps, and it would be split between congregations.

And then you'd send out little groups into this, like, one portion of the territory and cover, like, maybe like, one side of the street and around the block, you know, and then the following weekend, you do the other side of the street and around the other block. Like, yeah, it was a whole thing. And then from there, you keep not at home list.

So you'd write down if no one was home, and then, you know, after you did regular territory work, you could go back and do those not at homes and see if you can catch the people at home. But, yeah, it's very organized and very creepy, now that I think about it.

Sam: 00:27:55

Yeah, I mean, it's. I think it's just, like, even. I mean, there's, like, marketing strategies there in terms of, like, you know, being aware of what's in their yard and.

And things like that, which, you know, we know that MLMs use those. The same S type of strategies. But I think. Yeah, I think that there is just a need for people to realize that, hey, like, there is.

This is, like, the organized part of organized religion. Like, there is strategy. It's not just random.

Micki: 00:28:30

They call themselves, like, the organization. They're like. They're referred to themselves as Jehovah's organization. So there's like, oh, the organization said that we should do this.

I shouldn't do that.

And, like, now they're kind of moved away from the watchtower, where it would, like, hook you with, like, a cute little article about something, but now it's videos, and they just want to have, like, real conversations with people and point them to the videos. And then the Jehovah's Witness website, and then they have, like, on their website, all these videos explaining what goes on at a meeting.

Like, what Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm gonna put in air quotes, really believe.

And then they have, like, a set of or a series of videos for children, the Caleb and Sophia ones, which, like, if you're a frazzled single mom and these people come to your door and they're like, here's this children's theory. Then you start playing that for the kid. But, like, it's all horrible things about how you're not. Not allowed to have a birthday cupcake at school.

And, like, you're not allowed to hang out with your schoolmates. You have to try and make friends with older Jehovah's Witnesses.

And it might be all bright and colorful and cute, but it's, like, actually really harmful at the end of the day.

And I think that's what haunts me the most about my door knocking experience is that, like, I had no idea of a lot of the harm that was going on in the background as a Witness.

Sam: 00:29:55

Yeah.

Micki: 00:29:56

And your average Witness knocking on your door won't either. So it's like, I know a lot of people will be tempted to be like, oh, well, you know, do you know this about your religion?

Do you know that about your religion? But that will shut down the Jehovah's Witness at your door. Like, they'll be like, oh, bye. Yeah.

But it's more like the public also doesn't realize that we're not like. Or that I wasn't. And Witnesses aren't just quirky Bible scripture readers. Like, you know, it's. There's a whole system in place that. That covers that.

Child sex abuse. And there's a whole set of beliefs that tell you, you know, that God hates gay people. And then you're not allowed to have blood transfusions.

You're not allowed to be your authentic self. You just, like, it's a hole.

Sam: 00:30:45

Yeah.

Micki: 00:30:47

Thing that people don't realize is under the surface of what being a Jehovah's Witnesses, like, it's not a cute little experience.

Sam: 00:30:55

Yeah.

Micki: 00:30:57

Yeah.

Sam: 00:30:57

What do you think kept you there for as long as it did?

Micki: 00:31:02

Definitely the child.

Childhood indoctrination and then not having a good relationship with my mom and then, like, just throwing myself into being friends with everyone and using them as my. Not using them, but, like, viewing them as my family. And it was the only life I knew.

Like, I thought it was all entirely true that the end of the world was coming. I might have, like, little doubt.

Mean, like, I remember thinking to myself when I was out in the preaching work, if someone came to my door, there's no way that I would answer and feel like, yes, tell me more. Give me that. Watch out. I'd have been like, nope, bye.

Sam: 00:31:41

Yeah.

Micki: 00:31:42

And like that. Now looking back, I'm like, that's a huge doubt. Like, because it shouldn't, shouldn't be the case. Like, if something is true, you should 100.

Like it would have found you anyway.

Like, so I just remember looking at the time and being like, wow, I'm so glad that my mom answered the door and that she took the magazines and took an interest because now I get to live in a perfect paradise forever and ever and ever and ever with other Jehovah's Witnesses. But now it sounds like a nightmare. Yeah, the whole thing, I, I don't know, like, it's, it's just so laid and entangled with so many different things.

Sam: 00:32:24

And I, I'm gonna make an assumption here because like most anything organized religion esque tends to have this in some way.

But I'm assuming that there was some sort of like purity doctrine that you were probably also raised with in terms of like no sex before marriage, abstinence only, no contraception. I suspect, I think you like, because.

Micki: 00:32:48

I never got married, so I didn't get the whole nine yards of a talk beforehand. But I think they're okay with contraception. But they are a bit funny about certain things.

Like I have endometriosis and I had to get an IUD inserted to sort of help with that pain management wise. And I remember telling someone in my congregation and they were like, oh, have you researched though, like what the organization says about that?

And then sent me a link to an article that was a bit. It's very much. They have this set of like unofficial rules that you're supposed to use your conscience to decide if you can and can't do something.

But it's very much laid out in their literature and article the way they word it, what your conscience should be deciding at the end. Right. But this was one of those. And it was a bit like, maybe you shouldn't.

And I was like, well, I'm still going to do it because I'm literally dying every month.

Sam: 00:33:51

So, yeah, I know that in most communities like this, marriage is particularly for women put on a pedestal. And that's like, the goal is to get married and to have children.

And so I'm curious what it was like for you as a woman who was not doing those things.

Micki: 00:34:11

It was really hard as well. Within the organization, the Witnesses, I think women outnumber men. Like, there's one man or two women to every man kind of situation.

So it's very competitive. And there are a lot of what they would say, single sisters.

Sam: 00:34:30

I'm just thinking like this. There's a reality TV show in there somewhere, right? Goodness. Okay.

Micki: 00:34:39

And there's like a set of, you know, qualities that you kind of want your Jehovah's Witness man to have if you to find one. And then, like, the whole dating experience is very strict. You have to have a chaperone with you when you're dating. There.

There are ways and, like, experiences where people may or may not have to do some of the things that they're quite strict about.

For instance, like, I did end up dating someone for a couple of years, but because his dad was an elder in the congregation, and the guy that I was dating and I had been friends for a couple of years before we started dating, and we'd hung out by ourselves as friends. So we continued to hang out by ourselves while we were dating. And somehow we managed to. I'm gonna air quote this as well, like, get away with it.

Because of his father's standing in the congregation. They're a well respected family. And the congregation that he was in and I later joined was very relaxed and quite like that.

There were a whole bunch of families that have been there since the congregation started. So it was like very. It was a very different congregation to the ones that I had been in previously.

So, yeah, somehow we got away with dating and hanging out by ourselves. But with that, yeah, you no sex before marriage. And you're expected to if you start dating, that's supposed to end in marriage.

And it was quite unusual for Jehovah's Witnesses to date longer than like, six months to a year. So I know that people were talking about us like, why aren't they getting married? Like, what's wrong?

Sam: 00:36:23

And I suspect that just based on, like, I don't know, patriarchy, that the what's wrong? Question was probably much more directed at you than him.

Micki: 00:36:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. You know, why doesn't he want to marry you?

But also, at the same time, I think I outwardly appeared to be doing a lot more in the religion than what he did. He managed to sort of skate by on the fact that his dad was an elder and he was in a congregation that had been in his whole life. So.

Sam: 00:36:56

Yeah.

Micki: 00:36:57

But yeah, it was very like, why isn't this happening? And obviously when you do get married. Going back to like, the patriarchy.

The man is ahead, makes all the decisions, and you pretty much cannot argue with him. If you get married and the husband is abusive, you can't leave. You're not allowed to get divorced.

The only reason you're allowed to get divorced is if someone commits adultery, there's a second witness and they agree to. To getting divorced. Like, you know, if they want to work on it, you kind of have to.

And then if you find out about the cheating and you sleep with them and then you're like, wait, they cheated. You cannot get divorced because you sleeping with them was like an act of forgiveness.

Sam: 00:37:46

That's.

Micki: 00:37:47

Yeah, yeah. And then like, I found all of that out sort of like afterwards and like a little bit later from other ex witnesses.

And there's sort of a limbo that you can get trapped in. Like, I had a friend in the religion who, her husband was abusive and he did cheat on her, but nobody was able to prove it.

So she was stuck where she was not allowed to. Like, they could get divorced, but she was not scripturally free to remarry.

So she would basically be stuck in limbo and unable to marry anyone else the rest of her life.

Sam: 00:38:26

Yeah.

Micki: 00:38:26

Which is.

Sam: 00:38:30

Okay, so let's fast forward a bit. And what, like, how did you decide to leave?

Micki: 00:38:39

So I lost. So: 2020

I was living by myself. I was in a foreign language congregation. So a lot of the members were spread out across Auckland where I was living.

And it wasn't as close as, like, if I was in a local congregation where you go to basically like the Kingdom hall in your area and like, it's all very trapped and being in a foreign language congregation. People were spread out across Auckland, so you weren't allowed to in lockdown, sort of travel too far.

I mean, you weren't allowed to see other people anyway.

But there were people that, if they lived nearby, could do, like, mental health walks together, like at a distance, you know, 6ft distance or whatever it was. Um. Whereas, yeah, I was all by. All by myself pretty much. And no one was really checking on me.

I struggled with anxiety and depression and having undiagnosed ADHD for most of my life, which is all combined. And I sort of like, I never wanted to be alone. And there I was, like, forced to be alone.

Like, it was just me and my dog and I could see in the congregation group chats that they were all hanging out a little bit, you know, doing these mental health walks and checking on each other and leaving each other like baked goods and all of the stuff. And, like, no one's really doing that for me. So it's kind of hard. I. The depression hit me a bit more and I ended up feeling quite suicidal.

Fortunately, I spoke to my GP about it and they referred me on to get four or three sessions of counseling. And I was able to meet with a really wonderful counselor who was really nice.

So New Zealand was like in and out of lockdown, so it sort of happened in a period where we were out of lockdown. So I could meet with the counselor.

And she was really helpful, but a lot of the information that she was giving me was about how you need to trust yourself. And she was pointing to, like, she was really helpful.

She said, like, find this online, because I know you won't necessarily be able to keep seeing me. This is where you can look. There's some books, like, giving me as much tools as she could, which is wonderful.

And the Jehovah's Witnesses basically teach, do not lean upon your own understanding. Don't trust your heart, because it's treacherous.

So completely at odds with mental health, like Bible, Christian stuff and Jehovah's Witnesses and mental health are completely opposite. So I was like, looking into all of that and like, that started sort of hanging in my. In my mind. I think therapy TikTok was big at the time.

So, like, my TikTok was filled with therapy and I was getting more of the same messaging that was really helpful. I opened up to a couple of sisters in my congregation and they were like, why would you go to therapy? Because that's also a big no, no.

As a Witness, you should be looking into your Bible study, your personal study and your prayer, and everything just fix itself. Then I lost my job. I was made redundant because of COVID and the pandemic and business restructuring.

I was also working for Witnesses, so that was really hard that they chose to do that to the. To me, another Jehovah's Witness. And they kept on their worldly staff member, which I was like, what the heck? But also that environment was horrible.

So I'm really glad that that happened. But at the time when it was happening, it was quite difficult. Now I also have a worldly aunt. I've got three of them.

One of them was heavily into covert conspiracies and, like, something about, like, JFK is going to come back and rule with Trump and all of these crazy things and like Jewish people are drinking the blood of children and celebrities are worshiping Satan and blah blah blah.

Now because I had time, I wasn't at work, I was able to look at the stuff she was sending me and I was on Reddit a lot and I think I was in the conspiracy subreddit when something got cross posted from the extra hints community.

And I clicked it when I shouldn't have because we're it just drilled into witnesses not to look at this would be called apostate teaching or information. I clicked it and I went through feeling absolutely like the weight of the world on my shoulders, like oh my God, what am I doing? What am I doing?

I started reading everybody's stories about how they were waking up and like their experiences in the congregation worldwide. And I was like, it's the same, it's all the same. And I posted something like I'm questioning things or something like that.

And someone sent me the link to jwfats.com and from there I basically unraveled over a weekend my former religion and realized it was a cult and man made and it was just crazy.

Sam: 00:44:27

What was that weekend like?

Micki: 00:44:29

I just like it was so chaotic and just so much information, like so many screenshots, so much information from JW facts making. I made a fake profile Facebook so that I could join extra hovers witness forums and connect with people.

Then I had to make the decision of what was I going to do because I still didn't really like the feeling of being alone. But I was a lot better at it, having gone through lockdown and yeah, everything. But I didn't want to lose my friends. They were like my family.

So I had to decide what they're going to try and fade out of the religion where you just gradually stop going to meetings and gradually stop going field service and the background start like making connections in real life and start living in life. Or do I want to just leave or do I want to stay? But I was like, I can't stay knowing what I know.

Like I've never known anything more in my heart than I know that the witnesses are a man made high control religion. So I tried to fade out, but I also could not deal with like I was just itching to live authentically.

Sam: 00:45:46

Yeah.

Micki: 00:45:47

And if I started dying my hair pink or getting tattoos or pissing my nose, I would be even if I was fading out, people would be commenting that be messaging. It was just like, I don't want to have to deal with that.

hen eventually In February of: 2021

And I posted something on my social media basically saying I want to move forward with kindness and live my life with authenticity. It's not possible to do this as a Jehovah's Witness.

And you know, I found all this information about how it's pretty man made or it's a high control religion or something like that.

I said it quite nicely and I just watched everybody unfollow me and I'm friend and I got a ton of horrible messages saying that the world is a scary nasty place and nobody will care about you and we're not talking to you unless you come back to Jehovah, which is the big thing that they like to use when really it's, you know, the organization. So that everybody stopped talking to me. And I have been completely shunned ever since.

I have found out like about a year later, an elder in my congregation and his wife ended up leaving.

And I was able to get the story from their perspective like about what happened when I posted this and like how the congregation, like the elders went into a big flurry of like, oh my God, we have to like make sure nobody looks at apostate information. And that I might like they were like, don't open any links if she sends you anything. And which I wasn't doing, I was just posting my thing.

I wasn't going to force anyone to leave. It was just not for me.

So unofficially disassociated, basically, because you can officially disassociate where you write them a letter and then they announce it as a platform at the meetings.

But the trouble with that is that they announced it the same way that they announced disfellowshipping, which is when somebody is kicked out basically. And they just say that such and such is no longer a Jehovah's Witness.

So the congregation would basically assume that you'd had sex or you're doing drugs or whatever and put that sort of like their own spin on it when. Which is why I specifically chose to put it on my social media and put it everywhere so they could see my reasoning.

Because it's not because I wanted to sin, it's because this is not the truth.

Sam: 00:48:34

And I mean it sounds like that, you know, you posting was a way for you to try and control as much of the narrative that you could.

Micki: 00:48:42

Oh, yeah. 100.

Sam: 00:48:44

Yeah. Yeah. What was it like for you? And I'm asking this as somebody who also basically lost all of her friends bar, like one or two.

But what was it like for you to have everyone turn their back on you?

Micki: 00:48:59

It was horrible.

Sam: 00:49:02

Yeah.

Micki: 00:49:03

There's like, no other way to put it. Like, it's really awful to have people message you and say they're not going to be your friend unless you come back to this harmful religion.

People that I, you know, would still hang out with when they were going through their dodgy phases and I didn't treat them any different. Like, you're supposed to sort of keep them at a distance if someone's doing stuff like that. But no, they're my friend. Why would I do that?

And then to see those same people turn around and be so hard line and say, absolutely not. We're not friends. Cut away. And then it's. It's quite difficult even now.

Like, there are things that I'll see and I'll be like, oh, this friend would enjoy this. Or there'll be something that remind me of like an in joke and I can't share it.

And you kind of end up having to block out like this huge part of your life because it's. You can't talk to these people anymore. They're not talking to you. There's no like in jokes and shared memories anymore.

It's just looking back on a weird time of my life, basically. Like, it feels very disconnecting.

But at the time when I was going through, I connected with one of my worldly aunts, not the one that I live next door to, who is into the conspiracies, a different one who's a little bit more logical. And I basically spent my time with her, like, walking my dog at the beach with her and her dog.

And like every Sunday I would go and do that for the sunrise. And there was a bunch of like, older ladies that all were doing the same walk. And they kind of became my first friends, I guess.

And then eventually I joined Bumble bff and I made a friend on there and she's absolutely amazing. And her and her flatmate that she got not long after we met, they became like my new besties. And they're absolutely amazing.

Like, I felt like an alien in the world and they were so supportive and they would, like, you know, help me in terms of dating. And like, you know, if a guy tries this or if someone tries that, like, don't Feel pressured, don't worry about this.

And then this is something that could happen. And here's some stuff that might help you. And let's all talk, let's sit down, let's go for walks, let's have brunch. Like, let's go out.

And it was like, really fun. They're really nice. I miss them a lot. But yeah, they're really helpful in sort of navigating those first few months, I guess, after leaving.

Sam: 00:51:38

Yeah.

And I think that that's like a huge misconception from people who have never been part of a faith community, which is that, oh, you just leave and then like, you just get on with your life. But it's just not quite like that.

Micki: 00:51:52

Right.

Sam: 00:51:52

Like, there is such a huge, like, reintegrating into society in a way that you've never been able to before. And so. Yeah, what were those first, you know, even like six to 12 months, like.

Micki: 00:52:10

It was really confusing. It was like running alongside the lockdowns that we were in and out of in New Zealand.

And I actually am really grateful that it sort of happened like that because it allowed me time and space and figure out that I'm okay on my own. Like, I don't, I don't need, like, I had this big need to always be surrounded by people and now I'm like, it's fine.

Like, I don't have to go and do all of these things all the time anymore. It was my first birthday.

Unfortunately we got put back into lockdown on, so I was like, no, but that friend that I made on Bumble Cat, she sent me cupcakes, which was really sweet. So that was really nice. Like to have that that someone would think about doing that was really lovely.

And I did like a little zoom chat with other ex Witnesses that I'd been friends with online.

I made a lot of new online friendships and like being in the Facebook groups and Reddit and eventually on Tick Tock, I started making content and that was a great way to like express myself and, and sort of talk about the things that I'd been through and what I was going through and what the Jehovah's Witnesses actually really believe. Yeah, I think I, I made like a lot of online friendships and it was a bit harder to translate that.

Like to make real friends in real life when you're an adult, like, in general, that's hard, let alone when you've left a religion.

Sam: 00:53:51

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Micki: 00:53:53

But I definitely feel like I've been so lucky in the friendships that I have made. Like I was very fortunate to meet a lot of the people that I became close friends with online.

On my way to moving here last year, I traveled through the States and got to meet a lot of them. And even like when I got here, I'm staying with one of my online friends from Tik Tok Riley and his wife Marsha.

And they're just like the best people in the world.

Sam: 00:54:19

Are they listening right now?

Micki: 00:54:22

That was just in case.

But being like being able to do that and talk to people and like make new friends or people that I wouldn't have been able to witness, I joined a Facebook group here called the London Lonely Girls Club or something like that. And people will post about themselves or if they're going to go do something. Does anyone want to join?

And I've just been so fortunate with the friendship that I've made on there as well. That is sort of helping keep going.

I lost my dog Nacho to cancer in January last year, which was probably the hardest thing that I've had to go through since leaving. And like in general, like those two things, leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses and losing that to like the hardest times in my life.

He was like 14 and like got me through leaving and then now he's gone and I was like, ah, I do. But the opportunity came up to move here and I reconnected with my cousins that I lost contact with when I full on became a Witness.

They've been living in London for like the last 15 years and they're the daughters of my cool aunt that I did beach walks with.

Sam: 00:55:40

I love that they specify the cool aunt and the, the conspiracy theorist art.

Micki: 00:55:46

Yeah.

Sam: 00:55:47

Right. Yeah.

Micki: 00:55:49

So, yeah, like that's what basically brought me here was to change my life, start fresh and kind of, yeah, keep going, see what happens.

Sam: 00:56:00

Yeah. And you mentioned about creating content. And so thus the Apostate Barbie was born. And so firstly, how did you come up with the name?

And two, what is it like for you to be so open about your experiences online?

Micki: 00:56:19

So I actually went by that exjw witch for the first like two years. That was a play on like that and that witch. And then because like Jehovah's Witnesses hate witchcraft. So it was like.

But then sort of like there's a problem within the XJW community of people falling down the conspiracy and like alt right pipeline and a lot of the women go down the, the witchy alt right spirituality path and it ends up conspiratorial as well. So I was like, yeah, I kind of Want to just myself on that for a bit. And the Barbie movie, it came out and I was like, why don't I be a Barbie?

Like, I've got Pinky. I would think all the time. It's perfect. So that's why I rebranded.

Not saying there's anything wrong with, like, going down the spiritual path or anything like that. Because myself, like, I managed to, when I was in Salem, buy my first tarot deck. I love that.

Like, I love looking at into different things, but I don't feel like I have to have like, this identity anymore of what I do. Yeah. I think that was the how apostate Barbie got came about. What was the other question? I've already forgotten.

Sam: 00:57:36

It was, what is it like for you to share so openly online?

Micki: 00:57:39

Okay.

So a big thing that I sort of felt with the XJW community is that there are a lot of Men with YouTube, with YouTube channels, and they're basically doing the same thing that we were taught as witnesses as giving a talk. Like, men give talks and they provide you with information.

And like, these guys seem to pretty much predominantly do the same thing, like hear information. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, block. It's kind of boring. And I was like, I.

I feel like we need more conversations, more experiences, and specifically for women to talk about. Like, I never had sex until I left. Like, two years actually after I left. So I was 37 when I finally had sex for the first time.

Sam: 00:58:27

Yeah.

Micki: 00:58:27

Which is wild. Like, I know that virginity is like, construct. Like, it's all. It doesn't mean anything.

But when you're an actual person that hasn't done the thing that everybody else has done.

Sam: 00:58:40

Yeah.

Micki: 00:58:40

And then it's a thing where they, like, as a woman, go inside your body. Like, it's kind of scary. So I like to talk about that stuff because when I left, I was like, oh, what do I do? What is this?

No one's really openly talking about things. And I remember having to sort of message older extra h, witness woman and be like, hey, what do I do? Like, is this okay?

Like, and like, kind of awkward. But thankfully, like, you know, they were helpful. And same with like, my. My new worldly friends.

But it was like, definitely something I wanted to put out there. Like, that is confusing. It's scary. And I just hope that I help someone feel less alone through sharing my experience. Experiences.

Not just about that, but in general. And I fortunately have met a few people in real life that have said that that my content has helped them leave.

And like, the first time that happened was like, I cried. I was like, this is so nice.

Like, this girl came up to me at a meetup when I was going through the States and was like, you know, I first saw your content. Went through it all through my phone, across the room. Didn't think about it again for like. Yeah. And then it was like niggling at her the whole time.

And then she. She picked it up and started deconstructing and she was like, thank you. I was like, wow. I just put my silly little videos online.

Like, I don't actually think that someone's gonna leave the religion because of it. Yeah. But, yeah, like, it's. It's just about that hoping. I'm hoping that I can help people feel less alone.

Sam: 01:00:21

I also suspect it's probably allowed you to feel less alone also because I probably had, you know, broadened your connections as well. That, you know, it's, you know, hitting both of those. Yeah.

Micki: 01:00:38

Yeah, definitely. The guy that I did end up, like, sleeping with for that first time, he's amazing.

He lives in New Zealand, but he was a survivor of another couple of cults and that how we ended up becoming friends and a little bit more. But, you know, that wouldn't have happened if I wasn't sharing my. My thoughts online.

Sam: 01:01:02

Yeah.

Micki: 01:01:03

And I definitely feel like, you know, there's a. If there's a.

Like a guy or a person who's left and they sort of understand themselves, mental health and like deconstructing and stuff, they're a bit more compassionate than, I suppose a person that has a. Sort of gone through that and like just your average guy walking down the street. Yeah. So it was really nice.

It's very kind and attentive and yeah, really good experience, which, you know, I try to look at the plus side to everything. Like, if I had these experience when I was younger, it might not have gone as good. Anything could have happened.

It could have been bad or it could have been good. Like, nobody knows. But my silver lining here is that I had a great first time.

Sam: 01:01:50

Like, the way that I often view this podcast and like, when I share my story online, it's, you know, there's a quote that comes to mind around, you know, that we share our scars so that other people know that healing is possible. And yeah, I think that that's one of the most beautiful parts of, you know, there's.

Social media has a lot of faults, but it's got a lot of beauty in that it can plant seeds to help people, you know, become better versions and more Authentic versions of themselves. And sometimes that happens through us sharing our own story.

So what is it like for you or what relationship do you have with finding an authentic sense of spirituality?

Micki: 01:02:38

So I guess for my staff, like, that term spirituality is, to me, so tied up with being a Jehovah's Witness.

Sam: 01:02:46

Yeah.

Micki: 01:02:46

And I know it's not the same. It's not used in the same way out here in the normal world for me. Like, I've gone down the path where I've deconstructed fully and I.

I no longer believe in the God of the Bible. Yeah. Obviously not 100 certain, but I have not been provided evidence that he's real. So.

And then if he was real, do I want to worship someone that, in my opinion, is kind of horrible?

Sam: 01:03:13

Yeah.

Micki: 01:03:13

Pretty something. Really horrible. Yeah. No, I don't.

So if whatever happens to me when I die, as long as I've been kind and had fun, like, if there is a loving creator or anything like that, then I should be good. I watched the series Midnight Mass a couple of years ago. Amazing series.

And the way that it sort of ended was basically that you sort of go back into being energy in the world. And, like, I like that.

Like, if I die, I'm just gonna be floating around as, like, energy, or I'll go back into the earth and like, yeah, you know, help be a tree or have oxygen or whatever it is. Like, I'm okay. I can stand with not knowing at all and just focusing on now and being kind and having fun.

Sam: 01:04:04

Yeah, I love that. I. I'm curious. I. You've mentioned it a couple of times throughout, and I. And I want to ask because some people would go, oh, that seems quite extreme.

Which is. At what point did you start referring to the Jehovah's Witness as a cult?

Micki: 01:04:27

Ah, yes, I. I did try to pedal back and say, hi. Control religion. Yeah.

Sam: 01:04:33

I mean, to be fair, like, I would sit. Yeah, I would sit here and be like. I refer to them as a cult as well.

But I know that some people are probably perhaps listening and going, well, that seems. That seems extreme.

Micki: 01:04:48

Well, it's not.

Sam: 01:04:50

Yeah.

Micki: 01:04:52

So they are definitely in. In that if you can't leave, like, if you leave, like, people are like, I can leave fine.

But that's like the equivalent of someone having a gun to your head and being like, you can leave, it's fine, but, you know, I might shoot you. Yeah, yeah, I can leave, but I'm gonna lose everyone that I've even known. I'm gonna lose my entire life.

Like, it's not you can leave, it's you're stuck in it. They're so controlling down to what women wear.

Like, recently it was said that women are allowed to now wear trousers or pants at the Kingdom hall, where we weren't allowed to do that.

Sam: 01:05:31

Yeah.

Micki: 01:05:31

And in the field service, ministry, preaching, work, men weren't allowed to have beards. Beards.

But now they are, like, to the point where, like, growing people would not naturally have facial hair on their face because some random men in New York were telling them they can or can't.

Sam: 01:05:55

Yeah.

Micki: 01:05:55

Like, it's so controlled, and it's definitely very, very insular and cult like, because everybody is robotic and doing the same things.

Sam: 01:06:07

What was it like for you personally to start using the language of cult?

Micki: 01:06:11

Initially, it was difficult. I was like, a cult, like, dim. So harsh. But also I used Stephen Hassan's model. Yeah, yeah.

And Jehovah's Witnesses pretty much check off 9 out of 10 in every single box. So, yeah, I do tend to say high control religion alongside culture because that really drives it home, like, so that people can understand.

Like, it's not just a, hey, see you at church, read a scripture, bye. And then everybody lives their own normal lives. It's woven into every single facet of your life.

Like, everything you're doing is about being a Jehovah's Witness.

Sam: 01:06:53

And I think for a lot of people, cult, like, the word cult is obviously quite emotive, and people have a lot of opinions around what, you know, what is a cult and what is cult like and all of those different things.

But, yeah, I think, you know, putting it alongside of high control religion often allows people to actually, like, what actually is it that we're saying about this group?

Micki: 01:07:19

Yeah.

Sam: 01:07:20

Is damaging. And it, you know, it is coming back to that control. I mean, that's what the bite model is all about. If people don't know what that is.

Yeah, I think, like, a lot of.

Micki: 01:07:31

People will say, you know, Jehovah's Witnesses aren't occult because they don't have the one charismatic leader.

Okay, maybe they don't have one, but they have nine predominantly white men, predominantly American white men that act as one, and they have positioned themselves as Jehovah. So it's not. You're not obeying Jehovah, you're not obeying God, you're obeying these nine white men in New York. Like, it's not.

Don't get caught up on, like, oh, it's only supposed to be one. If they've got their one Agenda and motive and reasoning and they're all moving as one. That's the, the governing body is basically the cult leader.

Sam: 01:08:14

Yeah, absolutely.

Micki: 01:08:16

Yeah.

Sam: 01:08:17

Yeah. And yeah, it's, I think also that's probably just, you know, getting down. That's like people, you know, it's semantics in terms of.

Well like, yeah, they're acting as one. There's still the control factor.

And yeah, it's like I'm imagining like this sci fi robot where they're all like inside and they're all like part of the control panel. That's what I'm imagining.

Micki: 01:08:47

Yeah, but like boring.

Sam: 01:08:52

Yeah.

I like to, I like to end these episodes on, on I guess like a message or a piece of, of hope over in car or encouragement for people who are deconstructing or who have left communities.

But I want to target for you to perhaps offer a word of encouragement or message for those who perhaps have just left the Witnesses and are sort of trying to reintegrate into society.

Micki: 01:09:32

I definitely feel like try everything you can. And everything doesn't have to be black and white. Like there's no, you don't have to do this thing forever.

You can turn around and say no, actually I don't like that. And like if you don't like something, it's not the end of the world. Haha. You literally can just learn about yourself.

And that is the best thing to do right now is to learn about yourself.

And the only way you can do that is to get out there and try things and just basically, you know, do what you want but don't hurt anyone and figure out who you are. Trust in yourself and you'll be fine. Like you'll be fine on your own.

People will come, you will find connections, relationships, and it's going to be so much better than what you had as a Jehovah's Witness or high control religion member. But definitely start building that authentic relationship with yourself first.

Sam: 01:10:27

And I love, yeah, I love that nothing, nothing is ever black or white. I think that's one of the biggest things that a lot of people find. There's so many colors amongst that spectrum. Yeah.

Micki: 01:10:40

So definitely.

Sam: 01:10:41

And so much within all of those colors. So yeah, I love that. Including pink. So to just like circle back, which is that if people are not already following you, I will pop your.

All of your socials in the show notes because I love your content and I think it's so important in this world.

And, and so I want to encourage people to just go and follow you and if they are, you know, trying to reintegrate to find other people within the, you know, the XJW community as well. So, yeah, thank you. Thank you for your voice and your story in the world. And thank you for joining me.

Micki: 01:11:26

Thank you. Thank you for doing what you do. And thank you for having me.

Sam: 01:11:33

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.