The One Who Went From The Bible Belt To Liberation

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam: 00:00:58

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface.

Sam: 00:01:39

Welcome, Kit. Thanks for joining me.

Kit: 00:01:42

Oh, well, thank you so much for having me.

Sam: 00:01:44

I. I feel like saying thanks for joining me again, because if people don't recognize the same name.

You joined me a while back for an episode on cognitive dissonance for the queer community, but today I've got you back finally to talk about your story, which I'm so excited about. And so before we sort of, like, kick straight in, where on. Where in the world are you right now?

Kit: 00:02:15

Yeah, so I'm in upstate New York in the Adirondack Mountains, and I'm on Abenaki land, and that, like, means toward the dawn, so that's where I'm located.

Sam: 00:02:29

Lovely. It's like I'm sitting here, like, in October in Australia and it's spring, so I'm assuming it's pretty chilly there.

Kit: 00:02:38

I suspect it is about zero degrees Celsius out here and it's pretty cold. Yeah, the leaves are absolutely gorgeous out here.

And there are people that come from, like, all over the country to see the leaves out here because it is so epic.

Sam: 00:02:57

Yeah. Oh, like, we obviously say autumn, but, like, autumn fall is, like, my favorite season of the year. It's just beautiful.

As much as, like, I love spring and flowers, like, autumn, like, the brown leaves and just beautiful. But anyway, I mean, let's get into, like, much more important stuff. Than like leaves and seasons.

But I like to start these episodes with like a really broad, vague question, which is where does your story start?

Kit: 00:03:32

Well, my story starts in the Bible Belt, of course.

Sam: 00:03:38

Where else would it start? What was it like to grow up in the Bible Belt? Kit?

Kit: 00:03:45

You know, the way that I describe it is even the atheists are Christian. I love that.

Sam: 00:03:53

Oh my goodness. Okay, so what do you. Okay, what do you mean by that? Because like there are going.

I'm going to have like Australian and New Zealand people who are going to go. That makes no sense to me.

Kit: 00:04:05

Yeah. So pretty much everything about the culture was Christian in some way. For instance, like where I grew up, American football was a really big thing.

And so anytime they would score, people would hold up their hands like praising Jesus Christ and say, touchdown Jesus.

Sam: 00:04:26

No. Oh my goodness, that's.

Kit: 00:04:30

Yes, I am for real. And so then like basically everyone knew the Lord's Prayer.

People that did not identify as Christian would go to churches on the different major holidays. And yeah, there was just a lot of Christian culture, purity culture that was woven into just general society in the Bible Belt.

Sam: 00:05:02

Yeah.

Sam: 00:05:03

Yeah. I think it's really important for people to make the distinguish between when like Christianity is a religion and Christianity is a culture.

And they're sometimes two separate entities in the one space. But what was, what was your home like? Were you guys like a very like Bible believing family or were you like the cultural Christians?

Kit: 00:05:34

My parents followed more closely after Dr. James Dobson than the Chi. Than the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Sam: 00:05:42

Okay, right.

Kit: 00:05:43

Yeah.

Sam: 00:05:44

Okay.

So I know who James Dobson is, but for people who don't know who that is, give us a little like, you know, spiel about who, who he is and why he is such a key figure in so many people's journeys and experiences.

Kit: 00:06:04

Yeah. So with Dr. Dobson, he came out of Colorado, doing a lot of work out of Colorado and was a psychologist.

Basically what he did was he took different models of psychology and put evangelical or Christian teachings on top of that. And it turned a lot of Christian homes into very violent homes. I grew up in a very violent home. And Dr.

Dobson really encouraged parents to be physically violent towards their children and believed that that was the way that would make children submissive to their parents and do whatever the will was of the parents.

Sam: 00:06:57

What was it like for you to grow up in that environment?

Kit: 00:07:00

I mean, it was definitely like a fear mongering environment and it was not a safe environment whatsoever of growing up. And I. You used to fantasize running from home all the time. My Biggest dream was to join the circus.

And every year that the circus would come to town, I would try to figure out a new way of how to escape and join the circus. And it never worked out. So then I just kept staying in that environment and created a kind of dream world around me.

So I did a lot of fantasy play with myself as a way of escaping emotionally from that kind of environment.

Sam: 00:07:56

Yeah. How did that, like, integrate or into. Into weave. I was gonna say interwoven, but that was not the right terminology.

Interweave with, like, the religious beliefs that you were being taught and, like, this relationship with God.

Kit: 00:08:18

The God that I was taught about was a very angry God.

So it seemed in alignment, and it seemed like, well, God will love you if you don't make him angry, or your parents will love you if you don't make them angry. And the way that you don't make them angry is just to be quiet. So I was a very outgoing child and, yeah, just very charismatic.

Sam: 00:08:48

Yeah.

Kit: 00:08:48

But then that would cause a lot of anger for me. Speaking up and being creative and showing who I was. That wasn't in this.

Just in alignment of what I was told that I should be, of being assigned female at birth and in this evangelical space. And so I ended up becoming very quiet and didn't really give people the opportunity to get to know me.

Whenever I hit around, like, nine, 10 years old and stayed pretty quiet for about a decade.

Sam: 00:09:42

Yeah.

Sam: 00:09:43

And I'm sort of like. I'm sitting here going, like. I mean, it's very obvious, Kit, that you are a raging extrovert. So, like, I can't imagine you quiet for starters.

But I mean, like.

And then my next thought is, like, of something much, I guess, more serious, which is, like, you sort of said that you never let other people get to know you. Did you let you get to know.

Kit: 00:10:10

You for a period of time? I did. And I think in fantasy play, whenever I was growing up, that was the time that I was most connected to myself.

But whenever I got to be about the age 14, I was told that that wasn't age appropriate to be doing imaginary play anymore. And I didn't have access to gaming.

So because of that, then I started to become very disconnected with myself during my teen years and really lost who I was during my teen years.

Sam: 00:10:54

What flavor of Christianity are you being taught at this point?

Kit: 00:10:58

So my family would alternate in between Southern Baptist circles and Fundamentalist Baptist circles. Both sets of my grandparents ended up converting to Fundamentalist Baptist, and I went to a Fundamentalist Baptist school.

Through my freshman year of high school. But then my family would attend a Southern Baptist church every week, and both my parents had leadership roles in the Southern Baptist Church.

So I was going to church on average about three times a week. And then I was in the Christian school for, you know, five days a week.

And in the Christian school then having sermon two days out of the five days, and then the other three days, I was having Bible classes. So I was very deeply immersed into what I would call the Baptist tradition.

Sam: 00:12:03

And was it always something that you were just being taught, or was it something that became personal for you?

Kit: 00:12:10

I converted to Christianity whenever I was around four or five years old, with.

Sam: 00:12:18

So much, like, prefrontal cortex developed to make those decisions. Right?

Kit: 00:12:23

Yeah.

Sam: 00:12:24

Oh, my gosh. It grinds my gears so much.

Kit: 00:12:27

It does. And, I mean, it's just like children think very literally.

So to be shown, you know, something that was called a picture graph, where it was felt pictures that you put on a. Basically a poster board that was made of felt, and they would show, like, pictures of humans falling into fire.

And so, like, that is very traumatizing for children. And, you know, and I. I just. I didn't want to get abused anymore. And I'm like, wow. Like, I would have, like. And, you know, at that point, I.

I didn't know what the word abuse was, but I just knew that I. I was in pain at a very young age. And here I was being told that I would be in eternal pain, so I didn't want to be an internal pain. I.

I knew what pain was, so that's why I made the decision to become a Christian at that point, because I wanted to escape that eternal pain. And then I ended up.

Whenever I was in third grade, I came out of the closet, and it was not a pleasant experience of coming out of the closet and really showed me some very ugly sides to Christianity.

Sam: 00:14:04

Yeah.

Kit: 00:14:05

And I ended up secretly deconverting, and. And then that lasted for about a couple of years, and then was just feeling very alone in my experience, hoping for some sort of a connection.

And so I decided that I wanted to reconnect with God in another kind of way. And. And then I started really getting immersed into nature. And then. And then that was the way that I connected with God.

And I mean, today, how I am and how I believe, like, I don't say that I'm Christian. I. I don't believe in Christian teachings anymore, but I still do feel very connected to my spirit whenever I'm in nature.

So I'm Very glad that that was something that I was able to find as a result of just trying to find some release.

Sam: 00:15:14

Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:16

It's.

Every time I talk to somebody on this podcast and I do another interview, I'm always reinforced with the belief that, like, churches are just, like, really missing the mark in what is going to lead someone down what they would call, like, the slippery slope. Right. They always think that it's like sex and drugs and like, sec. It's nature. Like, nature is going to lead you down the slippery slope.

It's wild to me that they're just like, totally missing the mark with that. Like, you're, like you're protesting the wrong people. Like, you just are. But. Yeah. Okay.

So, like, I'm curious about what that initial coming out process was like for you. Because. And I think even we are a day off. I think it was yesterday for me. It was national coming out day or International coming out day.

So, like, I'm curious what that initial coming out was like for you.

Kit: 00:16:18

So in my Southern Baptist church, the pastor ended up preaching a sermon about Sodom and Gomorrah and said that the AIDS crisis was our version of Sodom and Gomorrah.

Sam: 00:16:33

Yeah.

Kit: 00:16:34

And that this was a gift from God to be wiping out gay people.

Sam: 00:16:39

Yep.

Kit: 00:16:40

And how he was phrasing it. And the church was saying, like, the verses that go into the New Testament of, a man should not lie with a man, a woman should not lie with a woman.

And I listened to it. I was paying attention, even with being so young.

Sam: 00:16:58

Yeah.

Kit: 00:16:59

And I went up to my mom after the sermon and I said, I just had a slumber party with my friend. So. And so does this mean I'm going to get sick and die and go to hell? And my mom was very taken aback.

Sam: 00:17:16

Yeah.

Kit: 00:17:17

And then. And so shortly thereafter, she ended up giving me the sex talk.

And I have never heard of someone having the sex talk the way that my mom gave the sex talk to me.

Sam: 00:17:33

Okay.

Kit: 00:17:34

And she did not give the sex talk to my older sister in this way. She told me about anal sex between men. She told me about strap on sex between women.

And whenever I heard about these things, I look at my mom and I said, that is so cool. And I was smiling ear to ear.

Sam: 00:18:02

Not the response I suspect she wanted.

Kit: 00:18:05

No. She looked at me absolutely horrified.

Then she went to explain to me sex, for quote unquote, the purpose of procreation, which she deemed as being godly sex. And now whenever I look back at that, I'm like. She described marital Rape.

And this is what was taught not only by my mom, but from other evangelical women to me thereafter of encouraging marital rape and setting AFAB kids up to be maritally raped in the future. And, and so whenever she told me about marital rape, I ran out of the room and I said, I don't, I don't want to hear about that anymore.

Sam: 00:19:01

Yeah.

Kit: 00:19:01

And so I knew at a young age that that was wrong.

And, and I, I think that's probably why a lot of evangelicals had a problem with me at such a young age, because I had a very strong moral compass at a very young age and would call things out. However I was able to at that age. And for me, running away in disgusting, that was that rejection of that teaching.

And, and so then I ended up having my first girl crush a year after. And I told my sister and my sister said, don't tell mom or dad that or you'll be homeless. And I'm just like, how does another child know that?

You know?

And I didn't talk about having same sex attraction anytime after that and after I had come out to my mom in that sex talk because like coming out can be so different. It doesn't mean that you have to find a label. Like there's so many ways of like expressing oneself and our queerness.

And after that I was socially rejected. I stopped getting invites to birthday parties.

Whenever I was invited to parties, it was because everyone had to be invited and it was like a public invitation and I was given a mummy sleeping bag and because like then I was just had this idea that was placed on me that I was some, you know, predatory kid.

Sam: 00:21:09

Yeah.

Kit: 00:21:09

And had that on me, that idea. And I mean news travels fast whenever being part of these religious circles.

And I don't know why per se that that all changed overnight, but I have an idea that it was probably due to it getting around in a prayer chain to be quote unquote, like relieving those same sex attractions.

Where unfortunately that is something that has happened quite a bit to kids who grew up in non affirming Christian families of being outed through prayer circles and then put in very dangerous and unsafe situations.

Sam: 00:21:58

I'm curious what that, how that impacted on your own view of your own sexuality. Like how did, how did you view.

Kit: 00:22:08

Yourself after the social invites stopped? I ended up just seeing myself as being completely unattractive. Like I, I thought that no one would ever have a crush on me.

And I went into this mode of almost just being like, well then I don't want anyone To. So I literally got a mom haircut and I had my mom cut my hair. So like, I had to, like, so I was in fourth grade.

I had to use a rounding brush for my haircut.

Sam: 00:22:45

Wow.

Kit: 00:22:46

e a stay at home mom from the: 1960

Sam: 00:23:07

Oh my God.

Kit: 00:23:09

Yeah.

And then I ended up as a teenager taking a vow of celibacy because I just, I felt that I was unlovable and I was just like, well, okay, like I'll do like the Jesus loving thing. I'll just be celibate. And I just really dissociate myself from any idea that I could be attracted to someone or someone could be attracted to me.

And that lasted for almost a decade.

Sam: 00:23:46

Oh, wow.

Sam: 00:23:48

Yeah, it's a really long time.

And like, I mean, obviously like, I'm sitting here going like, you know, your teenage years are like, you know, those identity forming moments, particularly around sex and sexuality and everything in that spectrum. To have such a repressed view of yourself during that period of time, what was that like?

Like watching everybody else go out and explore relationships and, and things like that.

Kit: 00:24:28

I mean, a lot of it, I. I was very afraid.

Like, whenever I was 15, my sister had just gone off to college about 10 hours away, and she ended up getting mixed up with substance abuse, became very drug addicted. And I was just told, like, sex, drugs, rock and roll type of a thing. Right.

And so then there was this part of me that was just like, well, wow, like, I feel like I'm losing my sister. I don't want to lose myself. And so anytime whenever I would feel like I was getting close to someone, then I would make up excuses to not see them.

And that was a big part of my teen years of getting close, pushing people away because of fear.

Sam: 00:25:41

Yeah.

Sam: 00:25:44

And were you still like multiple times a week going to church at this point? Like, is it still reinforcing it?

Kit: 00:25:53

Whenever I was a sophomore then I went to the public school because I was asking my parents, like, please get me out of this Christian school. Because the bullying was just pretty horrendous. And my parents were like, well, we'll like send you to the neighborhood school.

But like, I grew up in the hood, so. Yeah. So then I had like multiple friends within a one year time period get like violently attacked because of game related activities. Yeah. And.

And so then I left that school because, like, it would just be too dangerous for me to have kept going There. And then my last two years of high school, I ended up homeschooling myself. And so because of that, you know, I.

I wasn't going to the Christian school, so I didn't have as much immersion as what I did before. And whenever I was able to drive, then I was able to have more control over how much time I spent in the church, which was very liberating for me.

Yeah, so that's. That's what it was like of those last few years between, like, 15 to 18.

Sam: 00:27:34

And so did, like, the. The ability to sort of, like, distance yourself from that immersion, did that impact on your view of self fairly quickly, or were you still so, like.

Because obviously, like, we know the impact of, like, heavy levels of indoctrin indoctrination up until that point, or was being able to separate from those environments pretty impactful?

Kit: 00:28:02

During that time, I was doing a lot of reflection about the relationship with my sister, and I was also seeing a pastoral counselor. And then that pastoral counselor was, lo and behold, giving me doses of conversion therapy and did not realize that. Okay. So, you know, I.

I was trying to figure out and navigate, you know, the stress with living in a home where my parents were anti therapy. And so I was getting pastoral counseling to try to be navigating things the best I could. But I. I was given very poor advice. And I.

I don't know if this is who I inherently am or if this is how I was conditioned, but I prefer to follow the rules. So because I was given a kind of quote unquote treatment plan from pastoral counseling, I. I was following that.

And it caused me to be very, very buttoned up during those last few years of my teen years.

Sam: 00:29:25

And so I am conscious that up until now, we've focused on your journey with your sexuality, but when did your gender come into the conversation?

Kit: 00:29:37

I mean, whenever my sister and I were kids, she used to call me her brother. She was like, you make a much better brother than you do a sister. Like, she was like, I see how other sisters are with each other.

And she's like, that's not you. Like, she's like, you're. You're my brother.

Sam: 00:29:57

Yeah.

Kit: 00:29:58

And that was something that was very hard for me to accept because I was just like, wow, just like another thing of lack of safety. Like, because then that meant that, oh, would I be questioning God's creation? And then that was considered in my church, like, the.

The ultimate slap in the face of God.

Sam: 00:30:29

When did you, like, consciously start realizing that you were trans?

Kit: 00:30:35

I didn't know the word trans until I was actually in grad school, my first year of grad school.

Sam: 00:30:40

Yeah.

Kit: 00:30:41

That is how impacted I was by the Bible belt.

Sam: 00:30:47

Yeah.

Kit: 00:30:47

And I was just introduced to trans women and I didn't know at that point. Point that there were trans men. And then I ended up moving to New York and I had some paperwork and it gave me more options than just male or female.

And I was like, what? Look at this? And I selected non binary and they. Them pronouns.

And it just felt very natural for me at the time of selecting that it made a lot of sense.

And I was like, oh, so that's why I never really felt like I, I belonged into these binaries that were given to me in the Bible Belt, in educational spaces and religious spaces. And I was like, wow, I'm not alone.

Like, that was wild for, for me because, like, I mean, whenever I found out that people could get double mastectomies and not have cancer, I said to my mom and to my sister, I want that.

Sam: 00:32:11

Yeah.

Kit: 00:32:12

And, and I was saying at a pretty young age, probably 14, that I didn't want kids and that I wanted a procedure to not have kids. And I mean, I would draw a beard on my face any chance that I would get.

I, like, whenever my parents would be out, I would be dressing up in my dad's clothes. There were all these different things that I was doing that I didn't know what that was about. Like, I didn't know what it was about.

Whenever I was a young child and at the point where I had friends in, in childhood where I would be playing the male role, every time I would be playing the male role, I wouldn't be playing the female role. And that, that felt more real to me than ever being called a little girl, than ever being called she, her.

And so whenever I selected non binary and they them on my, my paperwork, I told my therapist at the time and he responded so well. He was like, wow, like, that's amazing. And he was like, you know, like, let's talk about this. And I was like, it is what it is.

Like, I'm like this, like, it's not really going to change anything about me. And whenever it comes down to it, the reality is it really didn't change anything about me.

Like, it was just that I'm like, that's cool that I'm not alone.

Sam: 00:34:14

And you had language to be able to describe it.

Kit: 00:34:17

Yeah. And I, I mean, I still think that language for being trans is extremely limited.

And, and so the different labels there are still Parts of it where it doesn't feel, like, always, like, the best fit to be describing who I am.

And so I think that it's just beautiful to be able to have a space of open conversations about gender so that then people can know and understand where each other are coming from based upon the way that we identify and express gender.

Sam: 00:35:02

Was it, like, immediately coming out of the Bible Belt into New York? Was exploring this world immediately exciting and liberating, or was there still, like, fear there?

Kit: 00:35:16

So whenever I immediately went to New York, I was immediately out of the closet as being attracted to all genders. And it was very easy for me to do that.

But at that point, I didn't immediately have the language to express my transness until about, like, a year later. But then whenever I had moved to New York, I had gone. No contact with my family.

And then a year passed by, and then my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And then I felt like it was my responsibility to be taking care of my mom because I was like, my sister is struggling with addiction.

Like, what else is going to happen? Like, I was like, I guess I better do this and, like, check in and see, like, what's going on and see whatever I can do to help.

So I started going back and forth between New York and in the Bible Bel. And. And so then during that time, I started going in flux a bit about my gender expression, about the way that I expressed my sexuality.

Like, I was told by people, like, every time you, like, talk to your family, every time you come back, they're like, it's like, you've lost your muchness. Yeah. And that's exactly what. What it was like. So, I mean, I was still out, but it was in a different kind of way at that time.

Sam: 00:37:15

It's like playing two roles almost.

Kit: 00:37:21

Yeah.

Sam: 00:37:22

I mean, we talked a little bit about that in the other episode around, like, cognitive dissonance. But, like, I don't.

I don't know about you, but I remember what it was like to have to, like, mask my sexuality and to play different roles depending on the people that I was around. And that's fucking exhausting. So, like, was it exhausting for you also?

Kit: 00:37:47

I mean, I got sick a lot.

Sam: 00:37:50

Okay.

Kit: 00:37:50

I got sick a lot. Yeah. It took a. A toll on my immune system, for sure.

I think it gave me confusion about what I wanted to do in terms of dating, because then I started asking myself, okay, who would validate my queerness but would also be okay for me to bring back home?

Because, I mean, it's like, Whenever you're confronted with mortality, then things can change because, I mean, and coming out and like being like a, a person like under the, the age of 50, right. Like, there's usually not going to be that kind of thought of mortality and how that's going to affect expression.

Sam: 00:38:54

What was it like for you to be trying to embrace your queerness but still having to come back and be a part of your family who, I mean, also, like the same token, how did they respond to you being openly queer?

Kit: 00:39:12

It was kind of a don't ask, don't tell, okay Type type of a thing. And that's how that was handled with them.

Sam: 00:39:23

I mean, what was that dissonance like, in terms of, like, how were you able to continue embracing your queerness whilst having to go back and be a part of that environment?

Kit: 00:39:34

It caused me to be very frustrated with myself. And whenever I think about dissonance, I think about it as not as much being a conscious decision for me. It was a very conscious decision of.

Because I was like, well, do I really want last conversations with my mom to be like, hey, you know, I want you to call me they. Them and he. Him, you know, and also, I hate this name you gave me.

Sam: 00:40:16

Yeah.

Kit: 00:40:16

And I'm gonna change it. Like, you know, and so I was like, I don't think I want to do that.

Sam: 00:40:26

Yeah.

Kit: 00:40:27

And so, so then I had to, you know, figure out what that was going to be like.

And then, and then I, I felt like there was a, A almost countdown of whenever my mom would die so I could be able to feel fully authentically me in all spaces. And I mean, this is something that happens a lot with people who are caregivers of having a countdown and because, like, caregiver burnout is real.

And I had to explore that a lot in my own therapy of being like, this is actually really up that I think that it's worthwhile to be able to only be living as authentically me after my mom passes and to let family back in my life who are still not committed to, to nonviolent communication and nonviolent behaviors. Even my mom with cancer was still very violent. And. And so then I came to this reckoning where I was like, you know what?

Like, I was like, my parents have saved and they have the means to be able to hire a caregiver for my mom and I do not have to wash the hands of the person who beat me.

Sam: 00:42:17

Yeah.

Kit: 00:42:19

And what was really the, the big awakening for myself was I started working with older folks and started hearing their Stories of washing the genitals of the parents who raped them, of washing the hands of the parents who beat them. And they did that for a decade or longer. And I had to sit with myself in my discomfort and ask myself, would I be okay with doing this for a decade?

And I told myself, no. No, I. I need to live, and I need to live fully. And so I decided to walk away from my family. And I.

And I told them, I said, the reason why I'm walking away is because I thought that cancer could be able to change our family for the better and create a new family that was loving and that was kind and compassionate and actually did follow after the teachings of Jesus Christ. But at the end of the day, it's still a violent family. And I. And I can't support being in this.

And, and I, I never engaged in those behaviors, but at the same point, I didn't want to observe that. I didn't want to be a victim of that. And. And so I, I look back on. On doing that, and I'm really proud of myself for walking away.

Sam: 00:44:08

Yeah.

Kit: 00:44:08

Because usually whenever people go no contact, they never really consider about, like, what would happen if, like, if my parents are dying, you know. But it is something that needs to be considered because death comes for us all.

Sam: 00:44:27

I mean, as you are talking about it, the first thing that comes to mind is that that choice to go no contact is like a radical form of self love that some people just don't understand, and they probably will never understand because they won't have ever had to make that choice. And to be, like, completely frank, I think it's fucking incredible to be fair and brave.

What impact did that have on your sense of self after that point?

Kit: 00:45:03

Oh, it was a huge impact on my sense of self in the most incredible of ways. After doing that, I grieved a lot. And I think I needed these mountains that I'm living in during the time that we're talking here.

And I was living in a cabin and the, The Internet wasn't very good there. The cell signal wasn't very good. I had a lot of time with my thoughts. I got a cat there. I learned how to chop wood. You know, I.

I learned a lot of things. And if I didn't have that space, I don't know if I ever would have done that. I needed that space to be able to do that.

And something that I, I would do. There's. There's this exercise called empty chair.

And with empty chairs, you set up an empty chair or multiple Chairs and you talk to them as though they are representatives of parts of yourself or other people, and you have a conversation. And I did this so often with chairs representing family members and with chairs representing different times of my life.

And this was so cathartic for me to do. It was also very cathartic for me to finally get tattooed.

I like, one of my earliest memories was sitting on my papa, my paternal grandfather's lap, and he had tattoos before he had converted to Christianity. And I said, one day I'm gonna get tattoos just like you papa.

Sam: 00:47:08

Yeah.

Kit: 00:47:09

And my papa was a bad Christian. He was definitely a role model for me.

Sam: 00:47:16

They're the best guy.

Kit: 00:47:17

Yes. And in getting tattooed, I'm really glad that I got to be tattooed by an AFAB trans person who had also left evangelicalism.

And we got to talk about, you know, like, what tattooing means and body autonomy and the pain that, that the body goes through. There are also some natural springs and like a geyser and stuff nearby.

And I would go there and I would just sit in mineral baths and just really think and consider. I really made it a priority to be focusing on finding reconnection with myself and letting go of shame.

And the more that I did that, the more that I saw myself as a young child whenever I was beginning grief therapy after my mom's cancer diagnosis, because I decided to have a kind of pivot of my therapy and focus on grief work. My therapist was an existential therapist and asked me what I wanted to get out of this experience. And I.

And I said to him, I said, I want to become the person I was as a child. And he said, I don't know if that's going to happen. And I looked at him and I said, it better happen.

Sam: 00:49:05

Oh, gosh, I can just imagine what that therapist was thinking.

Kit: 00:49:09

Yes.

Sam: 00:49:14

Yeah.

Kit: 00:49:15

Oh, yeah.

Sam: 00:49:16

I mean, I mean, you're talking a bit about, you know, the things that you learned by being in this little cabin in the mountains. What things did you unlearn during that process?

Kit: 00:49:30

So something that I really came to be aware of is that whenever you leave an abusive relationship, a lot of times you end up carrying on the abuse and you start abusing yourself.

Sam: 00:49:49

Yeah.

Kit: 00:49:51

And I became very aware of how I was abusing myself and my thought processes. And I was restricting, I was restraining myself, I was shaming myself. And I started to make myself speak my thoughts out loud.

And anytime I would say a self abusive thought, I would make myself reframe it every single time. And that was something that absolutely changed my Life of unlearning that kind of self abusive talk.

Sam: 00:50:32

And I am conscious here to ask this question because like I, I'm imagining like some of the people listening going, it sounds really good in theory, but in reality, like that's incredibly hard. Right?

Kit: 00:50:47

Yeah. I mean the reality is it was a very painful process.

Sam: 00:50:54

Yeah.

Kit: 00:50:54

And so one of the parts of this too is that I listened to a lot of music, I did a lot of dancing, and that was a really big deal for me because I was not allowed to dance in the Baptist tradition that I grew up in. And through dancing, through a lot of crying, like, I mean, big sobs where maybe my neighbors in their cabins could hear me.

Yeah, you know, you're right. Like, like it's not easy. Like, it is not a pretty. It is not a silent process of recovering from extensive abuse.

Sam: 00:51:49

What was it like to you to. I hate the word deconstruct, but I'm gonna use it anyway. It's just like not terminology that I love.

I, I personally use the word detangle, but that's just because it fits better for me.

But like, what was it like for you to pull apart the beliefs that you were raised with and that level of indoctrination that you received from the fundamental Baptist communities?

Kit: 00:52:17

I'm gonna go back to my grief therapist who unfortunately, well, I guess not unfortunately, but he decided to pursue his dreams of studying neuroscience and becoming a neuroscientist. But he was just brilliant. Shout out to Robert. But Robert was really the first person who called me out on things.

Like I would say maybe like some different phrases where he would be like, him just being like, I think that this is your programming of coming back. Right. Of just really calling that out. I had no idea how much my programming influenced the way that I talked.

And with part of that it was because that programming was so common even outside of the church of where I grew up in, in the Bible Belt. So I really needed someone who would just call that out to me and be like, you know.

And so after that I started realizing I was like, okay, like it would be helpful for me to have my friends who were not born and raised in the church and stuff.

I would tell people that were not born and raised in the church, hey, like, you know, if I say these different phrases that don't make sense, like, please call me out on it and, and let me know because I want to change that. And they did, and that was really helpful.

Sam: 00:54:13

What was it like for you to build like a new sense of spirituality, whatever that Meant for you post, like, indoctrination in, like, in the cabin in the woods, like rebuilding whatever spirituality meant to you now.

Kit: 00:54:32

Yeah, I mean, part of it, it started to get me to think about my family's own spiritual history. So, like, my grandparents, before they converted, they were practicing pagans. And so I was like, okay, I think I would like to explore that.

Sam: 00:54:58

Yeah.

Kit: 00:54:58

And so I started exploring Druidism, and that was something that really resonated with, with me of really seeking to get connected with nature and respecting nature and listening. Listening to nature and what nature is trying to tell us.

Sam: 00:55:24

Yeah.

I think the freedom to explore and learn and just like, like, just that permission of, like, I get to learn about other forms of spirituality and ways of life was the most freeing part of like, you know, quote unquote, deconstructing.

Because your worldview and your sense of what spirituality even means just, like, amplifies and expands and you realize that actually exploring doesn't narrow your view, it widens it greatly. And so, yeah, I think it's one of the most beautiful. I think it can be one of the most beautiful parts of deconstruction.

Kit: 00:56:12

Absolutely. Yeah. I feel like my spirit was sleeping for a while there and it got woken back up.

Sam: 00:56:20

One of the. One of my favorite questions to ask, and it sort of actually ties into.

We were talking a little bit before we hit record about, like, reclaiming language that we used to feel like Christianity owned. And spoiler, it doesn't. But one of my favorite things to ask is, what brings you joy and peace?

Kit: 00:56:48

I'm seeing like, poinsettias right now and red poinsettias and a nativity and a little bit of jingle bells with joint beast now.

Sam: 00:56:57

Yeah, I know. They're very Christmas oriented. Are they?

And actually, if I looked back on when I originally started thinking about the questions that I wanted to ask for this podcast, it probably was in the few months before Christmas last year. So, like, maybe, um, maybe that had part of it to do with. But yeah, I love it.

Kit: 00:57:22

What has really brought me joy and peace is to no longer tolerate abusive behaviors, to no longer tolerate violent language. Violent behaviors. Yeah, I, I have zero, zero tolerance for it. Yeah.

I used to try to develop a sense of empathy, but that was coming from my unresolved savior complex. Trying to find empathy from that. And I realized I was like, no, I. I don't have to empathize with that.

To be able to possibly help people like this isn't helping myself of tolerating this kind of behavior and language and.

Sam: 00:58:19

I think that, like, that's actually a really hard balance for a therapist. Right? It's really hard.

Kit: 00:58:27

Yeah. We're, like, taught to empathize with everything. And I. Maybe this is an unpopular opinion for therapists.

I don't think that we do have to empathize with. With everything. And I think that that kind of rhetoric leads to burnout as well as moral injury.

Sam: 00:58:50

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and my brain is automatically going, don't ask more questions about that, because that's a rabbit hole. We are not.

We do not have time to jump because it is a whole thing. But. And so I will get to my final question in a minute.

But okay, so for people who have not been on Kit's Instagram, despite the fact that you are talking about some really heavy. Somehow you manage to do so with, like, the silliest, funnest dances and with a bright smile on your face.

And I sit there and I go, like, there's so much joy there. Like, there's so much joy. And how on earth are you talking about all of this heaviness with so much lightness at the same time?

Kit: 00:59:47

I mean, with shadow comes light.

Sam: 00:59:50

Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Kit: 00:59:52

You know, so, like, I have had to accept my shadow. I've had to tie my shadow to my heel rather than reject my. My shadow. And so, I mean, to. To be real, I.

I didn't think that I was going to live to be this old. So because of that, I'm just like, well, then what am I gonna be doing every day of my life?

And I'm like, well, I'm gonna be talking about the real stuff. And I also want to have fun. And so part of it, like, if I was just talking about, like, fluffy things all the time, like, that's pretty wild.

Like, considering everything that's happening in our world today, like, we can still be fully present and talk about the hardship. Like, we can still talk about the hardship and acknowledge it and still feel joy and it be authentic joy.

Sam: 01:00:58

Absolutely.

And I think for me, sometimes when I'm talking about some of the hard stuff, I want to add an element of joy because I also want to remind people that queer joy exists. And it's like, we don't always need to talk about, like, the.

The discrimination and the marginalization and the harm and the abuse because it leaves people feeling like there's no joy at the end of that or through that. And. And so I sit there and it. The videos just make me smile.

Kit: 01:01:36

I have a lot of fun with it with them too, you know?

Sam: 01:01:39

Yeah.

Kit: 01:01:40

Dance and theater of just, like, being, like, expressive.

Like, that has been such a way for many generations that people have used to be able to talk about the hard things while still being able to bring a smile and bring a laugh to people. I know that my dance moves aren't very good. I. I know that I look like a goofy dad, but, like, I embrace it.

Like, I'm like, this is who I am, you know?

Sam: 01:02:09

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, and like, like, I don't know, daggy dad dancing is like, the best to watch to. So.

Okay, so I like to finish these episodes with a message of encouragement to those who are perhaps, like, knee deep in the thick of, you know, either trauma healing or deconstructing or anything in that space. What would you say to those people?

Kit: 01:02:40

Well, in alignment with all the dark stuff that I've talked about today, don't wait to live your life in waiting for someone else to die.

Sam: 01:02:51

I've had so many responses to that question, and that is the only time anyone has ever said anything like that. Say it again. Just to, like, really. Just to like, really hone in on that.

Kit: 01:03:08

Don't wait to live your life by waiting for someone else to die.

Sam: 01:03:15

That's so good. And on that note, thank you so much for joining me again. It was a pleasure, as always.

Kit: 01:03:24

Yes, definitely. Well, thank you for talking about the light and the shadow here.

Sam: 01:03:29

Yeah, always. Always happy to talk about both. So thank you so much.

Sam: 01:03:38

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.