The Loving Heretic

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

01:36

This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, Brady. Thanks for joining me. Thank you, it's so good to be here. Welcome, brady.

01:42 - Brady (Guest)

Thanks for joining me. Thank you, it's so good to be here.

01:45 - Sam (Host)

Before we kick in where in the world are you?

01:50 - Brady (Guest)

I am in pretty much the center of the United States. In southwest Missouri Most people know Kansas City so I'm pretty close to there.

01:59 - Sam (Host)

Nice. What's the weather like there at this time of year?

02:07 - Brady (Guest)

Like we're recording in November. Yeah, it's usually a little colder than it has been lately. So, yeah, it's been moderately warmer for the time of year, but still getting like our fall season starting a little bit colder, which is nice, yeah.

02:21 - Sam (Host)

Nice, okay, so I like to start these episodes with a super vague, super broad question um, which is where? Where does your story start?

02:34 - Brady (Guest)

I really feel like I have two stories. I really feel like I have like the first part of my life and then like the, the you know more more recent stuff, um, so I mean just like a brief summary, it's a pretty typical um like midwest, uh, white, evangelical, heterosexual, like when you imagine your little church kid that was raised and like grew up in it, like there's really not a whole lot of my, the first part of my story. That's gonna be surprising or unfamiliar to many people, um, other than the fact that maybe it's just, you know, boring. So, um, but you know like I picked up all of the stuff.

03:17

I picked up all of the um, evangelical and um, you know just religious fervor and traditions and um, you know just your typicalor and traditions and um, you know just your typical like conservative family in the middle of the united states. So, um, that was kind of like the background, um, but you know, really really changed several years ago when things just kind of like fell apart and the falling apart was absolutely insane but so beautiful and like has really has really inspired me to like I don't know just, it has been a pretty much a one 80, like everything has been completely different Spent years challenging everything that I've ever thought and finding out what I still think is worth believing in and what I don't.

04:07 - Sam (Host)

So it's quite the process, hey.

04:10 - Brady (Guest)

Yes, very much so.

04:14 - Sam (Host)

If we sort of go back to the family that you were raised in and that sort of very conservative evangelical life, was this the beliefs of your family or did it become the beliefs of yourself or like, because often being raised in the family doesn't necessarily mean that it becomes personal for us.

04:37 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, so I've actually talked about this a little bit and I've articulated or formulated my opinion on this pretty extensively, and that is that as a child, there was no doubt in my mind that any deviation from the accepted belief system in my family would have resulted in a risk to the attachment that I had with my parents. And so I can definitely say it was my family's beliefs, but it became mine because I I didn't think there was actually another choice or that the other choice would have cost me a relationship with my parents and as a kid, like you have to have your, like you need your parents. So like, what choice is that actually?

05:20 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I have a gripe with people who say that their children, when they're like seven or eight, or even like 10 and 11, are like accepting Jesus, because I'm kind of like, well, no, they're just accepting. They're accepting a one solution thing thing. You know, there's not, yeah, the, the cognitive or the brain development at that age to be able to, um, to think anything else other than just staying safe with the primary attachment figures that are in your world. So, yeah, it's a, it's a personal little grunt that I have in that space. How did that shift and change as you got older, though?

06:06 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah. So I think I definitely did transition into a period where, even though it didn't feel like I necessarily had empowered consent to partake in this particular set of beliefs, I do feel like eventually it did translate into wanting to be genuine, wanting to be authentic in my pursuit of this. You know this God that I was hearing about, and maybe the motivations were still acceptance from friends and family, but at the end of the day, I do know that my heart was genuine in seeking a relationship with this God that everyone had talked about and had made life all about. Um, and so I I think, throughout, like my teenage years, um, it was a lot of um, kind of chasing what was, uh, popular, uh, so, like you know, some of the things like um acquire the fire, that was a really big one.

07:03

I did ywam, which was the, you know, youth of the mission. Um, I did. I was even involved a little bit with ihop, kc, which is like crazy right now. Um, yeah, and so it really was kind of like where where's the place that you go so that you can have the ultimate experience in the Christian faith as you know it. Yeah.

07:28

And so yeah again, like I knew, my heart was genuine, but it was still chasing a lot of things that people put in front of you.

07:37 - Sam (Host)

What was the God that you were presented with and how did you relate to them?

07:48 - Brady (Guest)

how did you relate to them? Yeah, I mean it's, it's a very I mean it's the. It's the biblical, evangelical version of this deity that really, you know, thinking back now to it was really a narcissist in the sense that it was. It was. It was very much all about um sacrificing and letting go of this life in order for the next, and if you do it wrong, well, you get to spend the rest of your life burning and internal conscious torment and so, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's. I mean I hate to be like boring, but it was your very stereotypical Christian evangelical God.

08:27 - Sam (Host)

Like there's very little deviation in the image of God and that you know we are an extension of who that is.

08:33 - Brady (Guest)

And so I guess, how did the God that you were presented with impact on how you viewed yourself. Yeah, I mean, that's essentially. It has led to a lifelong journey of shame, because the experiences is that not only was I born evil, but left to my own desires, I would always choose the evil thing. Yeah, and so I'm just inherently bad all the time, and unless I discipline and essentially, um, you know, I mean there was all the things.

09:21

there was like accountability part, like every. Everything was just like all about this idea of if we leave Brady alone for just a second, this guy's gonna end up going to hell, like that was like all of this was structured, and so, you know, really the way to impact my life was that I had to figure out how I could endlessly bleed for this God so that maybe I would be good enough. Endlessly bleed for this God, so that maybe I would be good enough.

09:45

And that's a really hard way to live, because there's always the crazy thing about it is there will always be somebody else somewhere that will tell you you're doing it wrong, no matter what you're actually doing Like it doesn't actually matter yeah.

10:00

And so, as good as you think you could ever be in the faith, there will always be someone that is challenging you to do better, or you know that if you don't do it a certain way, you're not living out the call God has for you, or whatever like phraseology that was used. But yeah, so, yeah, I mean, the whole life was basically just like I suck and I just have to, like keep beating myself up to do better yeah, the um.

10:29 - Sam (Host)

The amount of times I heard the phrase um, die to self is just like insanity. Like it was just insanity. But you're right in in some way. Like you are never going to please everybody right, you're never going to do it right in the eyes of everybody. It reminds me of there's an artist, candy Carpenter. I don't know if you know who that is.

10:56

But, anyway, she has an album that's about her own deconstruction and growing up as a pastor's kid and one of the lines in her song is everybody goes to hell in someone else's religion and it's kind of. I love it because it kind of puts things into perspective that you know you are never going to be all right with everybody. Someone's going to see it as wrong, someone's going to see it as wrong, someone's going to see it as um, as not okay, um, how did that impact, I guess, that view of self, how did that impact on relationships and friendships and how you related to people in general?

11:38 - Brady (Guest)

yeah, no it. It actually became this obsession with proving my value, proving my worth. I'm not sure if you're into Enneagram at all, but I am an Enneagram too, which is the helper right. Essentially, it was like it's such a bad combination to be in that type of religion and then also be an Enneagram too, because essentially what that looked like is that I was literally purchasing any sort of value or love from anybody to give it to me by being endlessly sacrificial and helpful to everyone around me.

12:12

Yeah, and the church really did actually pray on that, because, you know, I used to get like these, like I don't know what to call them awards, but I would get recognition at church for serving as often as I did, and so to me it was like I don't know, just like one little token in the belt for the fact that I had some value somewhere. I didn't realize that it was really extremely superficial and came crashing down very easily. But, yeah, I mean in friendships and I mean I was constantly the pursuer, I was constantly chasing down people and instead of just saying, hey, I would like a friend, I would say, hey, how can I help? Yeah.

12:55

And tried to purchase my friendship that way. Um, it was like it basically set me up for a lifestyle of me consistently giving 100 or even 110 percent to any relationship or um organization and hope that I get 20 to 30 percent back. And so it was just, it was an incredibly lopsided um relationship. It was very transactional too. Um, it was like what have you done for me lately and so, and then it also unfortunately really got everyone used to the level of engagement that I would have, and so it was extremely hard to come back down from that, because the second that I'd actually tried to do less, everyone's like what's wrong? Why are you upset, or you know what I mean. So it was just, it just felt like a really big trap.

13:47 - Sam (Host)

It felt like prison for sure yeah, it's like, it's almost like a. You set this unrealistic standard based on you know that the notion of transactional bullying, I think, is just you know, something that comes out of you. You know post-church people or those who are deconstructing, because it is about your usefulness as opposed to you, and it's a really I mean, it's a really fucked up notion that, like you aren't, it's not about who you are, it's about what you can give to us, what you do for us, how useful are you for us? And that's exhausting for the person who is doing it.

14:29 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, and it's. I think what makes it worse too is that it was always, um, you know, I mean it was. I guess it was a form of gaslighting, but it was just. It was never for the organization or for the person, it was always for the kingdom, or you know for like. So it was just. It was never for the organization or for the person, it was always for the kingdom, or you know for like. So it was just, it was constant. It was a life of reframe is really what it was, and so, you know, the church could need help doing this, but the communication would be hey, have you thought about more ways that you can serve the church? Because that's what you know. So it was just. It's just, yeah, toxic as fuck.

15:05 - Sam (Host)

I don't know how else to say it yeah, I mean, and I think you know from hearing from everybody that I've ever spoken to around this topic, often when it's framed as you know, advancing the kingdom, or you're doing it for the glory of god and all of this sort of language it leaves you no room for movement, because you're supposed to be grateful for this level of exhaustion, because it's what you've been called to do, and so it's like this really awful cycle of I can't feel guilty about not wanting to do the thing.

15:41 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, that's very true. Yeah, I think the worst part too is then you end up watching other people around you do it as well, and so then it just feels like it's more abnormal not to do it than it is to do it. So, yeah, it's definitely that part of my life, that part of the journey and the season of of just endless sacrifice it was. I guess I just didn't realize until several years later just how incredibly harmful and how empty and spent I was all the time yeah, what impact.

16:17 - Sam (Host)

I mean I'm sort of thinking you know, being a therapist, I'm automatically going to. What sort of impact did that have on you? Because, like, spiritual burnout is real for people in church environments and in religious environments and the impact I would imagine that that level of exhaustion is going to have on you mentally and physically. What was that like for you to, sort of like, be coming out of that?

16:50 - Brady (Guest)

well, a little bit of, because there's like a there's a little bit of a season like before I exited that I've I thought about a lot and looking back into just what that experience was like, and I think it's. It's always I mean, retrospect is always so much easier, Right, but just looking at that season, I cannot believe just how out of control and miserable I actually felt. Yeah, Just because it was like I don't know, there were definitely moments where I felt so desperate and just so like will anybody see this? Like is anybody going to notice the fact that I am literally suffering? And you know, I was a pretty prominent figure in a pretty large church and so it was like I had that like idea that if anyone was going to be noticed in their suffering, I thought I had a pretty good chance of it. Yeah.

17:56

But because of the fact that there's all this reframe that's going on, there's all this like well, then of course, the church, their response to stuff like stuff like this is, hey, we need to get this as quiet and as hidden as possible, because we can't let anybody else know that this can happen. And so then it was like the church was actively trying to suppress my own suffering, um, which was even more harmful. So so, yeah, before the exit, I would just say the impact was just like desolation. It was like mental and emotional desolation. I don't think I'd ever felt more alone. And then there was like the feelings of being used. And, yeah, I mean, I was just so surprised.

18:44

I think I can't ever get over the fact that I was like man, I just spent years, uh, giving an excess, giving an entirely out of proportionate amount, and if there was ever a moment where I really just needed help or like needed, um, empathy or needed some level of compassion, it almost felt like it was like, well, I earned it, like I earned it Right, like it's not too much to ask for Right, but then, like there wouldn't, there was nothing. And so, yeah, that was the season right before exiting was definitely the more significant and the and the hard part. I mean it was all difficult. Exiting was like I think I had already accepted the abandonment, the loneliness, the despair, like I already accepted it before I ever left. So leaving was just kind of like a whatever, like I'm done, like you know, I'd already gotten there mentally and emotionally. So but yeah, it was was pretty, it was pretty tragic, yeah I mean even the like as you were talking.

19:49 - Sam (Host)

I'm even thinking, even like the notion that you need to earn compassion from people is just like awful um, outside of the fact that, like you are in a supposed, in a space that is supposed to bleed compassion for people, right, like that's what it's supposed to look like, but it doesn't. And I mean, what impact did the lack of support, the lack of compassion that you got from the leaders and the people around you, the lack of compassion that you got from the leaders and the people around you?

20:29 - Brady (Guest)

no-transcript yeah, um, that's a great question. I think I just shut it all off to be honest, um, and not to bunny trail too much here, but it was just. It was already a season of incredible change. Um, I'd also left my marriage at the same time, okay, um, I'd also gotten a new job.

20:52

A lot of change in one hand yeah, it was like, if you can think of all of the like qualifying life events, I just did them all in like two months, um. So when I, when I left, um, I pretty much just left everything. Like I left every. I mean, I'm in a small midwestern town I shouldn't say small, it's smaller and so everyone goes to one of like two or three churches and so, and the community was just like built to encourage cross church um communication and anyway.

21:28

So when I left, it was like I left every friendship, I left my marriage, I left my job, I left any sense of real purpose in spirituality. I mean, it was like everything was just gone overnight. Listen, you may or may not be who I thought you were, but that doesn't really matter right now. Like if I'm going to take this thing all the way down to the foundation, if I'm going to like wipe it all clean like you're going to. And so it was probably, I don't know probably six months before I even contemplated what I thought my spirituality was, or my religion beliefs system should like turn into like I literally didn't even I didn't wrestle, I like literally just gave up and threw it all away.

22:23

I mean, it sounds like you didn't have any energy to do anything else yeah, well, yeah, and that was the other thing too is like I kind of just wanted. I was like reclaiming bits and pieces that I didn't think I was allowed to have during the season prior, and one of those things was I just wanted to actually suffer, like I actually just wanted to go through it. Yeah.

22:50

And so I think there was parts of it where I had heard about this God being compassionate and that he cared and loved me, and I was like I actually don't even want that right now. Like right now, I actually just want to suffer, I want to be as alone and as miserable as I can be because I have spent, you know, months and months and months pretending that I wasn't.

23:10 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I think people sometimes don't necessarily realize the spiritual bypassing that happens in churches, where you are actually like not allowed to feel what is happening in your internal landscape, because unless it serves the purpose of the church, it doesn't serve a purpose Right.

23:34 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, mean, it's talked about this on my own podcast as well, and it's it's a systematic separation from everything that makes you you, and they do that by saying things like well, your heart is deceitful deceitful above all else. We all know that one, yeah, um, your, your body is not your own. It's a temple, or it belongs to your spouse, whichever way you want to. You know, whichever verse you want to use, um, his thoughts are higher than yours, so you can't even trust what you're thinking about things. And so there's just the systematic separation of anything that makes me me, and so, like, what do I have left if I'm divorced from all of those things? What do I?

24:14 - Sam (Host)

have. What was that? Uh, you know, you sort of said that there was around six months before you even started to contemplate anything around spirituality. What was that six months like for you?

24:28 - Brady (Guest)

um, it was rough. Uh, it was. It was just this like constant waking up and feeling like, is this actually my reality? Yeah, and so there was just a lot of um, bewilderment at the fact that I was even in this place and that I had had this experience. Um, of course, there was a few like hey brother, can we go get coffee this week? Like there were a few of those and I didn't know any better. So I went to a few of them and then I would like get home from coffee and be like I'm like sitting here trying to figure out if they're just choosing to not understand or if they're willfully ignorant, or like it was just it was so hard to figure out why no one was noticing what was happening.

25:19

Um, but, yeah, it was definitely. I wouldn't trade it for anything. Like I really I'm so glad that season happened, but it was also one of the more miserable times I've been in life, and so, and so, yeah, it's, I'm so thankful that I chose to do the suffering as hard as it was, just because it was like it was also some level of freedom to finally like that's really what started the reclamation and the reconnection with me and myself, and so, yeah, if it wasn't for that season, I mean I don't think things would have ever got any better, but it was. It was obviously a pretty detrimental and and miserably lonely experience.

26:04 - Sam (Host)

Yeah. What did you learn about yourself during that six months?

26:10 - Brady (Guest)

So much, yeah. Yeah, there was a lot. Actually, the really beautiful part about this and it's really kind of like why I do the work that I do with Love Like a Heretic and it's really been probably one of the most formative parts of my journey is that there were quite a few I wouldn't say quite a few. There were a few significant people that showed up in that season that were outside of the church already. Some had either already completed their own version of deconstruction, some never grew up in the church. You know, probably not surprisingly quite a few members of the queer community. Obviously because, like I think, whenever you're in the queer community, obviously because, like I think, whenever you're in the queer community, you like recognize the type of, you know, abandonment, like you can just see it on somebody's face. You're like I get it, I know, yeah, and so, yeah, there was just, there was a few people that were like showing up and there were just these little like tastes of the compassion that I thought the church was supposed to bring and it was coming from like some of the most ironically, some of the most like compassionate moments I had in that season.

27:29

I started playing music again and so I went and played with a friend at a pride festival First time I'd ever been to a pride festival and there was just this level of acceptance and compassion there, even being a straight person, that I did not expect, I had no, I had no um foresight that anywhere on the horizon that there would be this level of love and compassion and acceptance.

27:56

Um, if anything, I felt like I was going from a place that didn't want me to a place that didn't need me, and so I was like you know, um, yeah, and so, yeah, I I encountered these like moments of compassion from people and I was like, oh, hold on, like there's actually parts of this that don't feel in conflict with jesus, the one that I grew up with. It just feels conflictual with the church. So then that sent me into this whole tailspin of like how can, how can, people be loving me like jesus did, but not have any church affiliation or religious belief? And so you know that obviously started this whole like, oh my god, maybe the bible doesn't own moral authority.

28:41 - Sam (Host)

So, yeah, it was a lot of fun I mean, like, what was it like for you to start unraveling, I guess, the the actual spiritual biblical component of deconstruction of like, oh shit, maybe like the bible is not the inerrant word of god, like, maybe, um, like, maybe sin is a whole load of horseshit and maybe hell doesn't exist and like all of those huge existential questions that you know conjure naturally conjure an emotive reaction in us because we've been taught one way about them. What was it like for you to start pulling on that thread?

29:25 - Brady (Guest)

yeah, um, I will say the very first thing. Um, like what I would say after a couple of months, I feel like the whole thing just needed to be thrown out the window, like I didn't want any of it. I had had zero tolerance for anything that I had learned. I was just, I was done. But the first thing to go was I heard I remember who it was at this point but someone was talking about the idea that hell doesn't, hell doesn't exist. I was like I started thinking about it. I was like you know, I would have so much less of a problem with christianity if hell didn't exist, because it's really like.

30:06

That was really the hard part for me, especially as a father, because I had this moment where I was like someone was talking to me about this and I was like, okay, if my, if one of my kids I got a 12 year old, she's amazing, uh, so smart, so brilliant, um, just very strong willed. I love her to death. But I was like, okay, if she murdered somebody like tomorrow, um, how would I show up as a father, like what would be my response to her murdering someone? Obviously, there would be tremendous heartbreak and tremendous grief and I would definitely be incredibly concerned with who she is as a person and, but as a father, my, my, my reaction is like does she deserve punishment?

31:01

yeah, like I don't I don't have a problem with her like doing some time in prison, like you probably should do that when you kill somebody, like now will I be there every, every opportunity that I can visit. Yeah, like I'm still gonna want to, like I want to have her in my life. I still want to like know how she's doing and I still care about her and love her. But, yeah, I get that Like, hey, there's consequences and if you murder somebody, you might have to go spend the rest of your life in jail, and so, but for me to be able to sit there and think and one of the worst things I think you can do on this planet leaves me still wanting connections, leaves me still wanting to know you.

31:45

And so to then try to translate into if I'm a half-decent father and God is supposed to be the best father, there is no space for me to ever believe that, no matter what I do on earth, that he would ever want to actually strictly enforce eternal conscious torment forever. Like it, just like I would want my kid to have the consequence and pay the price, but not for eternity, and so that was kind of like the big thing. The second that I was like man, christianity is actually somewhat tolerable if hell doesn't exist. But then, like, if you can get past that, and the first thing I did was I started, like you know, I did all this googling and like, looking up, like, and I, to my surprise, I was like, oh my god, there's actually quite a few theologians that are very popular household names If you've ever gone to Bible school or anything.

32:39

, I don't know: 2010

33:06

So, like it's, it's kind of essentially a new construct. And so once I got past that and realized I wasn't alone in thinking that maybe it doesn't exist, um, that just kind of opened up a whole new world of things, because I was like, okay, well, if hell doesn't exist, then it all of a sudden takes everything that I thought was a sin and completely like, um, it removed my desire to like, want separation from whatever that was, and so, like you know, then it just became an issue of morality, like, do I agree that that's a good decision or not, instead of hey, if you do this, you're going to go to hell, like you know. So, like the, the, the weight of things was obviously had changed quite a bit, and so, yeah, I just took that. That was the first card in the house of cards, and once that came apart, um, it kind of gave me the freedom to like, try to explore the rest of Christianity and figure out if there were things that I could glean from it that I really liked, or if there was still a lot of issues that I had with some things.

34:07

And, you know, probably to no surprise, there were still many things I had an issue with afterwards, um, and to be clear, I don't know that I would probably. Well, that's not true. I do know I would probably not consider myself a Christian at this point. I do feel like that. There's probably some parts of Christianity that I. I mean, I still love the person of Jesus, I still think that the way he lived his life on earth was remarkable, um, but to believe that the Hebrew God is the only one, um, or the right one, it's just, it's just really very little evidence to support it and you know, it's just makes us one more in the number of people who believe their religion is the right one. And so I am a very spiritual person, but I have departed from Christianity and likely never to return.

35:05 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean I would say that the hell card is a pretty big card to start with in terms of deconstruction, I mean we just went all the way yeah, most people start a little lighter, um, but like going knee deep into hell.

35:25

I mean it's unsurprising that, like the rest, kind of like, followed after that. It's one of the big ticket items, um, to be fair. Um, but I think, know, you're talking about sort of morality. One of the bigger things I've found is when people realize that actually you can have morality without the Bible. Like if the Bible is the only reason you're not going around murdering, like you know, stealing and lying and all of those awful things. Um, if the bible is the only reason you're not doing that, then we've got a whole nother problem at hand and also keep reading your bible because, yes, absolutely you don't need you going around killing people.

36:14 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, but yeah, but yeah. I mean that's and you know, that's the part where I think the church has done a really good job of um othering and separating. And so there's this like there's the church people, and then there's the world. Right, there's always this black and white like line and I think once you step outside the church and you're like, oh my God, there's actually good people out here, yeah, well, that kind of like messes up everything. It kind of like screws up this whole. They will know we are Christians by our love. Give me a fucking break. Like I have experienced more love from non-Christians than I have from Christians. Yeah, so explain that. Explain that.

36:53 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I have probably experienced much more hate from you know Christians than I have non-Christians.

37:03 - Brady (Guest)

Absolutely.

37:04 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean in terms of you know morality and values and all of those sort of things that you know. It's what drives the way that we live our life. What was it like for you to? It's what drives the way that we live our life. What was it like for you to reconstruct and create what your value system was, outside of what it was supposed to be?

37:26 - Brady (Guest)

One of the phrases I've used pretty often is that my exit from Christianity freed me from the feeling like I had to be perfect, and so the phrase was if I don't have to be perfect, maybe now I can be good. And and the reality is, is that, um, as I was kind of contemplating like what's what's important to me? Um, it really kind of came from my experiences with people who are, you know, modeling and displaying similar things. So like people who are, you know, modeling and displaying similar things. So like, um, you know, and the truth is, is that obviously, you know, we've talked about the bible not being the sole owner of moral goodness, or what is called moral goodness, but the reality is, is that there are things that society agrees on that is morally good, and there are things that are in several different religions that are all kind of correlating the same thing. Like we have these basic human truths that, um, you know, killing people is wrong. Uh, like there's just, obviously there's some really big ones, but then, like, the fine-tuned ones are, um, have you ever experienced compassion from somebody? And how did that make you feel? Yeah, and so, if you, if you experienced that, and or even like deep empathy, the, the people that would come and like sit in the mud with me.

38:48

That was like, okay, well, I don't do. I have to say that like you have to do that with people in order to be considered a good person. I don't know, but I know that's how I want to show up in the world, and so there might be aspects of my lifestyle now that people would say would make me a good Christian. The difference is that I'm just not doing it in order to earn my way into heaven. I do those things because I really, truly believe in. I mean, I would probably I don't want to say I'm Buddhist, but I feel like there's so much from Buddhism that I've really, just really loved, and part of that just comes with this idea of reducing or eliminating suffering in humanity, cause I think it's something that we all we all definitely experienced, we all go through and we all have wildly different outcomes from our own suffering, but I do know that deep levels of compassion and empathy, care and love are things that I haven't met.

39:46

many humans that would reject those things if they were offered them genuinely or authentically yeah and so you know, I I'm so blessed and thankful that when I went through my season, there were like two people that like showed up in my life and they just did it Like they did the work. They did the work of sitting with me and I, you know, ironically they weren't my therapist, I wasn't paying them. Um, I did pay a therapist and he did a really great job with that as well.

40:15 - Sam (Host)

We love good therapists. I was like, oh, please don't say there is shit therapists.

40:21 - Brady (Guest)

No, no, not at all Like I. I will tell you this, I I really do. In all of this I will say that If you have incredible, incredible friends, maybe the necessity for a therapist is a little bit less. Probably not, but maybe. But the very least we do live in a world where, if you don't have the friends that can sit with you and walk through things and point out to the dark spaces and be comfortable in your mess, you can pay somebody to do that and you should. Yeah.

40:55

Because the reality is is that if you're left alone in your own mess, you will likely succumb to it yeah yeah, and so we are.

41:02

Just, we are creatures that were made for connection.

41:04

I truly believe that, and so, really, the the work now has been like, um, those two people were so incredibly impactful to my life.

41:15

It feels like I've been rescued, like I thought a savior would, but just by some regular people, and yeah, it just it inspired me and motivated me to like be that person for others, because there, you know, ironically, we're in a time where this is happening a lot. I am not an anomaly. My experience of the church and religion is not one of hundreds or even one of thousands, it's one of hundreds of thousands, and so there are people that are experiencing the loneliness and the abandonment and the suffering, and not everybody has somebody that will come and sit in the mud with them, and so that's really how my process has progressed, and there are some spiritual elements to it. I do believe in quite a few different spiritual reasons to be that person for somebody, but the reality is that this just seems like what be that person for somebody? But the reality is is that this just seems like what humanity is about for me is the ability to care, love, connect, empathize and be compassionate and kind to the people that are around me.

42:28 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it makes me and I'm hoping that I'm going to say this right but it makes me think of the little like tagline that you have in your bio, which is to be vulnerable with safe people and to be safe for the vulnerable. Is that right? Did I get it right?

42:42 - Brady (Guest)

Yes, you got it right yeah.

42:43 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, oh, I mean what? What impact has that had for you to be able to be that person? For other people?

42:52 - Brady (Guest)

It's definitely something I'm very passionate about, and I think one of the reasons I'm so passionate about it is because of the fact that it's incredibly rare. It is so rare to find safe people when you're feeling vulnerable, and it is incredibly rare that, once you feel like you have done the work and have become somewhat of a safe place, to find people that are willing to be vulnerable. Yeah. Because most of them are guarded and defensive and have had a lot of experiences with unsafe people. Yeah.

43:25

And so you know this really started when I started doing my podcast and essentially, you know there's there's a lot of deconstruction podcasts, so many great ones, and you know everyone has kind of like their own flavor etc. And there's parts of me that's like you know. I knew there was a few things I want to stay away from and there's no. I'm not I'm not dogging on anybody that has different flavors to their podcast, but I knew I didn't want anything political To me. Me it's just not something that's important to me. Um, I mean, I do care about it, but just not in that particular space. Um, there were also a lot of people that were having podcasts, that were just shitting on the church the whole time and like that's all it was.

44:09

I'm like okay, well, like well, like maybe that helps some, and so I'm like trying to navigate like what I wanted to do and it just kind of occurred to me that I was like um, there are a few, so there are so few podcasts, um, in the deconstruction space that are just simply the therapy work of holding space for someone's experience yeah and so that was like primarily what I wanted to model in these podcasts because, um, and I'm speaking of, I'm not a therapist either, so, like I'm not trying to do therapists work, but what I what I do want to show is that, even as friends and as fellow human beings, we do all have this ability to be able to sit and hold space for someone's experience in a way that has nothing to do with whether you agree with what they believe or not yeah um, I've had people on the podcast that are very, very much christian.

45:07

I've had atheists on the podcast. I've had very, very normative heterosexual white people. I've had people of color and queer uh, affirming and queer individuals on the podcast as well, and so, like the idea wasn't like I don't really care so much about, like, um, you know what you belong to. It was more just like a we're all human and that means that we all possess this ability to actually just sit in the mud to just to say listen. If this experience caused you grief, let me just grieve with you, and it's not because I want you to go to heaven, it's just because I had witnessed that myself and I witnessed the experience of feeling safe and felt and heard and seen and loved. And if I'm not showing up in the world that way which obviously I'm not going to do it perfectly but if I'm not dedicating at least some of my life to that experience, then I feel like I've just become a consumer. And so, yeah, I mean, that's really kind of where that came from is just recognizing that.

46:15

As I started doing this, people's responses were pretty consistent and they were like man Brady, you seem like a pretty safe place and I'm like okay, well, I'm not like I'm a mess, I'm just like everybody else. The difference is is that I'm just trying and I just wanted to paint the picture that we could all do this. Still, go see your therapist, but, like you know, the more people we have in this world that are able to contain and be a container for the emotions and experiences that people go through Because the reality is is that if you are human, that does also mean that you get a life of constant pain, constant work and a constant sense of uncertainty, and so those three things alone will send you into this like, hey, maybe I shouldn't do this by myself.

47:01 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, and I mean I think I mean it's one of the things that I say even to my clients, which is, like I'm just as human as they are, even though I'm sitting in the therapist position in that setting.

47:14

But I think one of the things that, like, as you're talking about holding that space and and there being you know a multitude of different podcasts and all of that sort of thing is that there is also an element of the space that you're creating that is like smashing a stereotype as well, which is the fact that you are a straight, white, cisgender male who is being the person holding that space, who we expect to not be holding that space as well. Like, there is an element of that as well. We often equate the person holding space and being a container and being a safe person for someone as being a woman, like that's I mean, it's the stereotype that churches push as well is that the woman is the nurturer right, and so there is an element, I think, that, as you know, the opposite of that, that is kind of breaking that barrier of gender stereotypes and gender norms as well.

48:18 - Brady (Guest)

Yeah, I appreciate that. I, I do think that, um, it is one of the things that we might have the most broken in our society is men, in just in the general sense, men's emotional awareness and sense of, um, emotional maturity and their ability to, I mean, like it's, I don't know, it is outrageous, honestly, the way that men have, just in general obviously there's always exceptions, but just in general, have responded to the emotion by suppressing and repressing. And you know, I think we're getting better. It's, I mean, I mean, I don't know, I think compared to 50 years ago, I think we're doing a lot better. But at the end of the day, the reality is, is that, gosh, men suck? And I say that as a man and I don't want it to be that way, but I, I do recognize that. I mean, you've heard this the, the man, or the, the bear yeah and so and have you heard this?

49:29

the men fight back with the woman or the tree. Have you heard about that one?

49:33

no yeah it's so, it's so outrageous actually. Um, but there's, yeah, there's one that's like women are a tree At least a tree would hear everything that I had to say, or something like that. And so I'm like the fact that we're actually developing this language where it's actually very easy to see that in our society and in this culture, that in our society and in this culture, we are so terrible as men at cultivating and tending to the parts that are us, the emotional part of things, the connectedness to our bodies like that's actually really crazy. Men and the connection to their bodies is non-existent. It is purely gratification on every level. It's like you're hungry, you eat a huge meal, you start to feel those emotions that you don't want to feel. Have a few beers.

50:28

Like everything is set up in order to make a man more comfortable yeah and, and the reality is that all that does is lead you into a lifetime of disconnection yeah and so if you don't have disconnection with yourself, how in the world could you possibly have disconnection with others?

50:47

and if you don't have disconnection with others, then, like what it's like? Yeah, um and so yeah, I don't mean to shit on men, but I I am definitely very upset and like concerned with the general sense and lack of emotional maturity in men today, and I think the worst part about it is I think it's actually worse in the church than it is outside of it- yeah, absolutely.

51:12 - Sam (Host)

Do you feel like, you know, whilst you've sort of been deconstructing religion, do you feel like you've also been simultaneously deconstructing masculinity and oh yeah yeah oh, absolutely.

51:26 - Brady (Guest)

Um, yeah, I'll tell you one of the main reasons for it. Um, it was actually really weird, but it was also like here's the cool thing. You know, I told you that like I left everything all at once. The cool thing about leaving everything all at once is, like who the fuck cares? Like there's no one left to judge, and so, like you can literally, like you can actually step into real authenticity because, like, who cares? I don't have a church elder telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. I don't have a spouse telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. I don't have friends telling me I'm doing the wrong thing. I can literally just figure it out for myself. Now, I made some poor decisions, so I didn't do it perfectly, but I learned. But part of the weird thing for me, which I just did not foresee coming, is that in that season of life, and even to this day, almost all I would say 90% of the connections and friendships that I have are with women. And.

52:26

I'm like, well, that's weird, right, like that's like growing up the way that I did, I'm like the only reason you would be a friend with a woman is if you wanted to marry her. You know stuff like that, like awful.

52:38

But then I was like sitting here thinking like, but wait, this is where the healing has happened in my life yeah there have been a few women that have come along and have been kind and nurturing and compassionate without any expectation for some romantic relationship, and so, uh, that was confusing because I was like, wait, this is not, this is something I'm not supposed to be doing and it's not supposed to be having a good result, it's supposed to be having a bad one, and so I guess part of that really did lead to the deconstruction of the patriarchal system as well, just simply because all I was looking at was men not showing up and women showing up. I'm like, wait a second, why are men in charge? Why are men running this? If that's what I'm saying, like it's kind of ridiculous. In fact, there was even so many times where, like we had a you have to listen to it.

53:33

There's a podcast episode we did on the patriarchy and in the church, but one of our conclusions was, like we had this conversation about equality for women and I'm like I'm getting to the point where I'm like I guess I'm a feminist because I'm like I don't know, I'm pretty sure a woman would do that job way better than a man would like.

53:53

I mean, it's just, I really do think it comes from this willingness to actually feel yeah, and unless you feel, you can't heal. And so you're just walking around with a lot of men that are purposefully and intentionally, maybe subconsciously, choosing not to feel. Can I see this unfold and like recognize the friendships and connections that I had that were primarily female? Um, it just made it really easy to like I'm gonna be like man. I don't know why men think that men are so great at this point. Like I'm not really like. I used to think that because I was one of them and I was like trained to think that way, but I'm just like I don't really see what we see in ourselves, to be honest yeah and again, not to shit on men.

54:40

I just think that men have a long ways to go in accepting responsibility for their behavior, for their lack of willingness to navigate emotional difficulty. Um, go to fucking therapy, like the way that, the way that men will resist that is absolutely absurd, yeah.

55:02 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, they really do Like. I wish I could disagree with you, but I can't. It was like, even as a relationship therapist, even getting men through the door for relationship therapy is difficult, and also it's only ever because, because you know, the wife is making me come like right. So it's always um, yes, um. To summarize, that men go to therapy that's true.

55:32 - Brady (Guest)

Well, and here's the cool thing too like I think some of the fears that men have are just inaccurate, and you know, that happens sometimes.

55:39

We have fears over things that we just don't know anything about, and so it's, it's the fear of uncertainty, really.

55:45

But I think what I found, too, is that one particular friend in that season I would confide pretty heavily sometimes, and I would just be like man, I feel, like I feel so out of place because of the way that I I'm just like going through and like labeling and describing these emotions that I'm feeling, I'm just like vomiting all of these feelings onto her, and at the end of the time you know this, the conversation when we like kind of get through them, I would just be like like kind of get through them, I would just be like I'm so sorry. I immediately felt like too much, I felt like a mess, and she had such the kindness to just be like Brady, this is okay. Like you're allowed to feel things, yeah, and actually the fact that you're willing to feel them and to describe them, label them and talk about them, that's a strength, not a weakness. And so I was like wait what? And so I expected rejection and instead found encouragement and acceptance. Yeah.

56:54

And so I think a lot of times. You know, I spent 30, what, over 30 years believing that my emotions would end up making me undesirable or rejectable. Why did I feel that way? I don't know. I mean, it's obviously the system right, like the way that we were born and raised. This is why I do the work that I do, because I do want I mean everybody, but also men to be like hey, there is actually a level of safety that you can have in your emotional vulnerability, yeah, and actually we kind of need it.

57:30

Like, quit shutting that shit up, cause we actually kind of need it. Also, if you have kids, they need it too. If you have kids, they need it too.

57:45 - Sam (Host)

Um, the level of attunement that you can offer to a child that can radically change their life fucking important, and you definitely can't do that if you can't even label your own emotions yeah, I mean if we shift gears, because I feel like otherwise that's going to derail the conversation, because I feel like we could keep talking about it, because I feel like otherwise that's going to derail the conversation, because I feel, like we could keep talking about it.

58:02

But if we, if we shift gears into like you've mentioned a few times that like there is still like a core spiritual part of who you are, what does that spirituality look like now, post-church?

58:17 - Brady (Guest)

oh, that's a great question.

58:19

Um, it's been a couple of years now, so, like I feel like I should have really good answers for you and I don't, unfortunately.

58:25

Yeah, but I will describe what my experience has been so far. Yeah, so I do feel like there has been enough experience in the last couple of years post church that has left me feeling like I could never reject the idea of the divine, like I really absolutely do believe in the divine and, you know, it's not because there's this like romantic idea that the divine cares about me, or and it's not because, like you know, I needed $50 this week and $50 showed up on my doorstep, like the church would like say God is real by those types of displays. So it wasn't that either, but there was just like I don't know how to describe it other than to say deeply in my core, I just know, deeply in my core, I just know there is something about my experience that tells me that there is intimacy in the divine, with the divine, somewhere in me yeah and so you know, obviously, like that's I've done exploring, like I've looked at different religions, gods, and like tried to find one that like matched my own experience of how I thought God was.

59:44

That didn't really like come up with anything super great, but one of the things that has actually been a very prominent thing that just will not go away and is only getting louder is that my experience of the divine is almost always amplified tremendously in nature, and so, uh, is it possible that it's the hebrew god? Sure, I don't know. Um, I what I think personally is that even the christian bible and the hebrew god is is some, is some human's depiction of what their experience with the divine was. Well, why can't I have my own? And so, personally I believe the divine is feminine maybe, maybe masculine as well, but I feel like I experience more of the femininity of divine nature than I do masculine. Yeah, um, and so like, when I hear people talk about the earth as being god and I I think about then they talk about earth being her, and I'm like I can't really disagree with any of that in my own experience yeah I kind of feel like pocahontas a little bit right now, like just in the sense that I'm like talking to willow trees now

:: 00:59

the wind, yeah, yeah, like. But as crazy as that sounds, um, at least in my experience, I I do felt like there has been more of a resonation internally with that pocahontas song than any worship song. I sang at church and so there was one night, there was one experience that was like it was in April of this year, where I was out in the woods late at night and it was very still and the moon came out and the trees were just.

:: 01:32

Everything was like serene and immaculate, and I remember thinking like I don't know, know, an overwhelming sense of there is something yeah and whatever there is, it is here and in these woods, in this, you know, not in a particular location, but, um, it was just. I felt the presence of the divine caring, and so sometimes I'll call her universe, sometimes I'll call her earth, sometimes I'll call her divine, sometimes I'll call her the force, if I'm talking to a Star Wars nerd, like I don't know, like it doesn't really like. The name doesn't really matter to me, it's just that my spirituality.

:: 02:13

Spirituality has actually only ever grown in my ability to connect with myself yeah and so, yeah, I actually feel more spiritual now than I ever did in church, which is really weird.

:: 02:28

I mean, I think it's. I always think it's funny because I always preempt that people, when I ask this question, people are going to bring up nature. Um, it just is, you know, and it. I just think it's so funny that churches still think that the slippery slope towards leaving church is like sex, drugs and, you know, rock and roll or queerness, but actually it's nature. Nature is the slippery slope out of church because a lot of the time you do feel much more connected to yourself and to the world around you. And I mean, and that's kind of you know, when people ask me, how do you define spirituality? It's connection inward and outward, whatever that looks like. But it makes me think of the Maggie who is the host of the Hello Deconstructionist podcast and and she says that for her it was God is a woman and that woman is me and and I love that because it's kind of coming back to that you can often connect outward when you connect inward, um, yeah, yeah well, I also believe in the symbiotic nature of everything like it is.

:: 03:46

It is actually ironic and insane the fact that, whatever we are, we're dependent yeah like, at the end of the day, I can't live life without the oxygen that comes from trees, I can't live life without water that comes from streams and rivers. Like the reality is is that it is actually a very symbiotic relationship because also I have the ability to wreak havoc on earth, and so, in order for me to understand that and not say that it's spiritually significant, just seems wrong to me part of what I love to do with these episodes is to reclaim language that I think for a long time we felt like the church, or particularly evangelical, evangelical christianity, owns.

:: 04:37

Um and spoiler they don't um, but um. What brings you, you know, present day, november 2024, what brings you joy and peace?

:: 04:51

uh, the list is endless, uh, which I love, but I would if I had to summarize. It really really is connections. Yeah, the more that I connect with myself, the more peace I feel. The overflow of that being connecting with others is what really where the joy comes from, and to think that we're doing that connection, we're creating that connection with earth, it's a very co-creative experience. Yeah.

:: 05:19

And and so, as far as, like you know, reclaiming language, if there's like one part of Christianity that like I really do want to reclaim and use in a way that I'm passionate about, it's intimacy. Intimacy is one of those things where like which, by the way, is not sex, right, maybe a part of it, but like the actual general sense of intimacy is this closeness of this. I see you, you see me, and the intimacy is like you know, like if you ever have somebody over at your house, like even if it's a really, really close friend, there's still that like one area of your house that you wouldn't show them, like you wouldn't like if they see it, okay maybe, but like I'm not gonna go like display it for you. Like that's my closet, like, um, or maybe it's a drawer, like as close as you can get with somebody, there's still in our human nature this desire to close off parts of us and, for whatever reason, like obviously I'm not going to go like take a stranger into my bedroom and show them my underwear drawer, like I'm not trying to do that. But what I'm saying is that we have this idea that if I'm at least 70% vulnerable, it's enough, but like intimacy is when it's like I can be comfortable and sit with all of you and you can be comfortable and sit with all of me.

:: 06:52

And so, like part of my experience that I that brings me so much joy and peace is that there has just been a couple of people that I have either accidentally or purposefully shown them the darkest parts of me and they didn't go running yeah, like they didn't just like give up, and so, um, to me that feels like intimacy where you can say I see you, you see me, we connect, we're holding space, we're viewing each other, we're present, we're intentionally present in the present and that is enough.

:: 07:27

And it just feels sacred to me. And so it's kind of like the experience that I always wanted with the Christian God but never got. And there are. I've even told, like I told my parents the other day, um, I was like I hope there's, there's like one or two friends that I was talking about, and with one of them I said I really hope Jesus loves me like she does. And when I made that statement it just hit me because I was like, oh, part of the the desires in my heart is that I wanted everything that I was taught growing up to be true yeah I wanted it to be true and the freedom and the joy and the peace have come from the fact that it is true.

:: 08:16

Just not from a deity.

:: 08:18

It's been in human connection yeah and so if I were to say, if I had to really truly define my version of the divine, it's actually just in sacred human connections I think in I'm coming up to about 12 months of recording for this podcast um, and I think that that is the best answer anybody has given me to that question thank you oh man and, and I think it's probably, it's just um, I mean, it's like real and it's beautiful, and I think that, yeah, I don't know, I don't want to say any other words to that.

:: 09:05

Okay, well, I love finishing these episodes with some encouragement for listeners. And so what would you say to someone who is there in that six month window where you were talking about sitting in that suffering?

:: 09:21

they're fresh in their deconstruction, they've just pulled on that thread and things are crumbling for them don't make the mistake of not going all the way, like if you're already in this place where you are tearing things apart, don't leave stones unturned. Like don't make the mistake of doing it half-heartedly or going because, see, that's the hard part about suffering is, if you're going to experience it, but not in its totality, you're just saving some for later. Yeah.

:: 09:54

And so you know I'm not telling you that, like you have to, you have to deconstruct all of christianity all at once. It's obviously not what I'm saying.

:: 10:04

Yeah, um, but if you're, if you're actually granted the gift of being able to deconstruct anything, yeah use it like have that moment where you can start to navigate and establish and reconnect with your intuition, with your heart, because if you can do that that's a slippery slope like it will just continue and you'll keep doing that. But I think the worst thing you could do is to go through that experience and to endure the suffering but then to leave it incomplete, because I've seen that happen a few times. Where people will exit the church, they'll deconstruct a little bit, they will freak out and for a good reason, and they'll go running back to the church. And again, I don't have a problem with the church, but I care very much so about the fact that there's a reason you left in the first place and that's because something in your true nature was screaming at you that it didn't feel okay. Yeah.

:: 11:10

And so, yeah, just in whatever that way, whatever that looks like to you in whatever that way is, do it fully like, do it all the way, and um, I think if you do whatever that way is, do it fully like, do it all the way, and um, I think if you do, the cool thing is is that once you tear it all down, like you can build it back up. You can. You can say, hey, you know what? I don't believe that jesus is divine. You can say that, which is a scary thing to say, because you're like, oh, that's like instant hell right. Like, yeah, oh my god, like that's blasphemy.

:: 11:41

I'm for sure never getting forgiven now, yeah, but who's to say that, if you are willing to allow yourself to believe that for a moment, that you can't just go back and say you know what? Actually, I was wrong. I do actually believe jesus is divine. So you get what I'm saying. Like, you always have this ability to reconstruct things you've torn down. The problem is going to be is, whenever you tear down this building 80% and you leave some really shit bricks at the bottom and then you start building on top of it, it's all going to fall down again and you will chase another religion, or you'll chase another form of acceptance, or you'll chase another adrenaline rush, like it'll always be something. So yeah, that would be. My biggest piece of advice is just like, if you're going to do it at all, just do it like do it all the way yeah, I love that and I think you know often when we do it all the way we are left with.

:: 12:36

You know the most core part of who we are at the end of it, and then we get the ability to build whatever that looks like from the most purest part of ourselves.

:: 12:49

Um I would rather be authentically wrong than to be inauthentically right yeah because at least in one of those I have me, and I know that when I have me I have a good thing yeah yeah, it allows you to cling on to, irrespective of whatever is crumbling around you.

:: 13:15

It gives you a groundedness and a centeredness in yourself and in your inherent goodness, which just might oppose what you've been taught.

:: 13:25

But I can't believe this. I might actually be good from birth. My goodness who knew?

:: 13:36

um well, I mean on that note. Thank you so much for joining me. I've loved this conversation truly a pleasure.

:: 13:43

Thank you so much for having me thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.