The Suburban Witch

Sam: 00:00:06

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface.

Sam: 00:01:27

Welcome. Hannah, thanks for joining me.

Hana: 00:01:29

Thank you so much for having me today.

Sam: 00:01:31

I was saying to you off before we started recording, I love having Aussies on the podcast. It's so fun. It's. I say it all the time.

My listeners are going to get sick of me saying it, but it is so nice to have, like, a familiar voice and accent on the other side. But we literally found out, like, two days ago that we were both Australian and we both thought each other was American. So.

Hana: 00:01:53

Lol.

Sam: 00:01:55

We live in. I think, hey, it is.

Hana: 00:01:58

And I think most of the, like, exvangelical voices are American.

Sam: 00:02:03

Yeah, there is.

Hana: 00:02:05

Yeah.

Sam: 00:02:05

To be fair, whenever I say the word exvangelical, because most of the time, even in Australia, we don't really use the term evangelical a whole lot. Unless you are in, like, big, mega church culture and then you might.

And so I naturally just assume I see the word exvangelical and I think, oh, America or Canada maybe, but usually America. So, I mean, we've kind of hinted at it, but where in the world are you at the moment?

Hana: 00:02:33

Would you believe I'm in Australia?

Sam: 00:02:36

You are in a warmer part of Australia than I am currently, though.

Hana: 00:02:40

I am. I'm in. I'm in, like, southeast Brisbane. So it is at the moment beautiful, like sunny, blue, like bluebird skies. It is gorgeous.

It's going to be 24 degrees and this is winter.

Sam: 00:02:54

Yeah.

Hana: 00:02:54

As a person who grew up in Melbourne, I can't believe I was missing out on this my whole life. It is like the biggest. The biggest secret Australia has kept.

Sam: 00:03:05

Yeah. See, I live. My wife is originally from Queensland. We lived in Brisbane for about six months. And I hated every second of it as of growing.

Like, I grew up in the Blue Mountains where it's like freezing. It was like humid central. It was disgusting. And then we moved to dry, like central Western Australia where it was not any better. It was just.

I went from humid heat to dry heat. It was just a whole thing.

Hana: 00:03:32

We moved as well. We've done Perth. I liked Perth. Oh yeah, Perth is beautiful. Lovely.

And then we went to like East Gippsland in Victoria and it was wet and cold and there was mosquitoes and flies in winter. And I was like, this is not good.

Sam: 00:03:48

Giving a good wrap up of Australian weather for people internationally right now. It's very diverse. Okay, so you've sort of hinted already at you didn't start in Queensland.

So I like to start these episodes with a really vague question, which is where does your story start?

Hana: 00:04:08

I like to say that I was assigned Christian at birth.

Sam: 00:04:13

Oh, I love everything about that. I've never heard anyone say that before.

Hana: 00:04:16

That is so funny because. Because if you've grown up in a Pentecostal mega church like I did, there are certain things that are done. One of the things is called a dedication.

And that's where you stand up on stage with your baby and say, I'm going to dedicate their life to the Lord, which obviously happened to me.

And just this week, a friend that we knew when we were in the church that I'm still Facebook friends with put up a photo of their dedication of their kid, but their kids like five. And my internal judgment was like, oh, that's a bit late.

Sam: 00:04:52

It's like five years of the kid's life.

Hana: 00:04:54

What have you been doing? Like, I. And I had to stop myself and go, isn't that so funny? That was my knee jerk reaction to think, why didn't they do this before? Right.

And they're in a cultier church than I grew up in, so I'm still confused. But anyway, assigned Christian at birth.

Sam: 00:05:12

Okay, So I love that terminology. That's so good. What did that look like then, growing up in that space, particularly as like a young kid?

Hana: 00:05:21

Yeah, it was at the time. Obviously my normal and all of our friends were at the same church. Our next door neighbors were at the same church.

Their cousins who lived down the road were at the same church. Mind you, this church is like 45 minutes away in the city. And we drove there four times a week.

Sam: 00:05:41

You know, like, like it's never just once a week, is it?

Hana: 00:05:44

Never, never, never. So, I mean, it wasn't consistently four times a week.

But especially as I grew, grew older and I was going to youth group on a Friday, I would do this, the Sunday morning service and the Sunday night service, which is with the same service. I don't know why I went twice.

Sam: 00:05:59

Yeah.

Hana: 00:05:59

And then usually a prayer group on the Wednesday. But then my mom was part of the women's leadership, so she was in the women's ministry.

So we were often there on a weekend at weird random times when no one else was there. So I know, like the back offices, like they were my playground. Right.

Sam: 00:06:16

Yeah. Yeah.

Hana: 00:06:18

So, yeah, that was, that was the. I guess growing up, it was just a second home.

Sam: 00:06:24

Yeah.

Hana: 00:06:24

Or a second family.

Sam: 00:06:26

Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:27

Did you like it?

Sam: 00:06:28

What did you think about church as a kid?

Hana: 00:06:31

I loved it. I. I think I'm a very spiritual person. Yeah, normally. And so I thrived on this spiritual expression that I was taught from the get go.

My brother never had that. He was four years younger than me and he couldn't give two hoots about going to church.

Whereas if I, I think I already had that internalized eldest child standards. Right. Type A personality of like, oh my God, we're late. We have, we cannot be late.

Because I would notice if you were late collectively, everyone sort of turns and they shift in their seat and they look and you're like, oh my goodness, I didn't want that. So you learn through these social cues what's allowed and what's not allowed and what you can get judged for, even if nobody says it.

And so even down to things like there was such a toxic culture that I didn't recognize at the time. But as a teen, I would watch women come up to my mother and say, oh, you're, you're very bold wearing that to church.

I don't think I could have the confidence. And like, you know, that is not a compliment.

Sam: 00:07:39

I mean, instantly just saw my eyes roll automatically.

Hana: 00:07:44

But it was taken as, you know, me as a teenager going, okay, so I know that what I wear is. There's allowed and not allowed. And it wasn't the purity culture style of you have to cover up everything. But it was, you can't outfit, repeat.

You have to wear like name brand stuff. It was that kind of, you Dress up for the Lord.

Sam: 00:08:08

Yeah.

Sam: 00:08:08

You can't just wear like cash clothes.

Hana: 00:08:10

To church wearing heels at like 13. Oh, God, I think I was.

Sam: 00:08:18

And did you like, was that being modeled from the state. Like, I say stage because I like you said Pentecostal church. There's not really pool where it's.

Hana: 00:08:26

Oh, yes.

Sam: 00:08:27

Like, it's a full stage.

Hana: 00:08:29

Everyone in. Because the youth. The youth would sit in like, front. Right. That was our spot. That was the teens. And you know, my parents would go and sit over there.

My brother would go to kids church upstairs and I'd be with the teens through the whole big service. And every boy in that section was a clone of the boys on stage. And every girl in that section was a clone of the girls on stage in the worship team.

So. So it was really interesting because I can spot it a mile away now. I go, oh, that person's in the evangelical church.

Because you can spot the style of clothing and hair and mannerisms a mile away when you've been brought up in it. And it's so funny because I'm like, oh, so familiar. Must be friend. No, wait out of that change and your brain just reverts back to that.

It's these confused things of safety and community that.

Sam: 00:09:26

Yeah.

Hana: 00:09:27

Later got ripped away. Yeah.

Sam: 00:09:29

What were you taught felt safe and was safety as a kid and as a teenager?

Because often the biggest thing that I find is that we get taught these distorted perceptions of what safety and love and comfort is when we're kids in that space or teenagers in that space. And then we realize, oh, that's not any of those things.

Hana: 00:09:48

Yeah. Yeah. There's so many things.

And I'm so grateful I've been able to do so much reflection and learning and deconstructing in this space because there is so many things that I have learned that I did think were safe and normal, that now I'm going, oh, my goodness. And normalized to the point where you don't recognize it until it gets pointed out to you.

Sam: 00:10:11

Yeah.

Hana: 00:10:12

To the point that if you've seen.

Which I'm sure you probably have, but if you've had seen the Shiny Happy People documentary, I remember when the first one came at season one, I told my mum, come on over, we'll watch it together now. She and I were kicked out at the same time of our church.

Sam: 00:10:31

Spoilers.

Hana: 00:10:32

Booted out. But I definitely deconstructed far earlier, quicker and more thoroughly.

She had a lot of hurt from the community ostracization, but she didn't deconstruct the belief aspects. Like, even four years ago, she was still praying in tongues when something went wrong. And I was like, how are you doing that? Like, what?

Doesn't that trigger you? Anyway, I had done my. I've got my own podcast for those listening.

It's called Witch Talks, and I did an episode called Religious Trauma and Abuse, and I sent it to my mom and said, have a listen to this. And a lot of it was based around the music and a critique of the music as a form of cult indoctrination and cultural. What is it called? Cultural.

There's a word, and it sounds really fancy, and I say it in the podcast, but I can't remember unless I read it off my script. Liturgic. Anyway, doesn't matter. It means when you try and make music similar to normal popular music outside of the.

Sam: 00:11:32

Oh, yes, I know what you mean. I don't know what the term is either. Yeah, you may.

It's like, if you listen to Hillsong Young and Free and Hillsong Worship, like, it sounds like secular music and this. Like, that's really strategic. Yeah, correct.

Hana: 00:11:46

Yes. And it was. It was critiquing the strategy behind it as well as the. The way the royalties are set up and how bad that is.

Our church definitely called Hillsong, our sister church, and we went to Hillsong Color Conference every year and all of those things. Anyways, so I put that out and asked my mom, like, what did you. What did you think of my episode? Like, I put my heart and soul on there.

And she said, I really liked the music. I don't understand what your problem is. And I was like, okay, that's all right. And I thought, she can't hear it from me. She.

She needs to hear it from someone else.

So I think it kind of set her on the path because the next time we bumped into each other, she was like, oh, my God, I've listened to this podcast on cults, and you'll never believe. And I was like, oh, yeah, all the stuff that I was saying in that episode, but whatever.

Sam: 00:12:38

Yeah, but you're just my hurt child trying to pull me away from God. I think I talk a lot about music because music is one of those things.

It's like when you mix indoctrination with art, and it is, like, powerful to our nervous system. It's crazy. I actually have a. I have a substack coming out next Friday about the harm and, like, the cringiness of Amazing Grace. His man.

Like, I just saw you shudder as I said it, which is most People who is. Who have been in and out of the church. Their response. But that is really intense for a lot of people.

Hana: 00:13:17

100. That episode that I did was triggered by me going to the doctors here in Brisbane. And I walked in and they were playing Hillsong and I was like, oh.

Sam: 00:13:27

Yeah, what are you doing?

Hana: 00:13:29

And I was so, like, triggered that a. What I would say is a safe space being a doctor's office.

Sam: 00:13:38

Yeah.

Hana: 00:13:38

Would be doing that. So it was triggered by that. Anyway, so finally Mum goes down this, you know, deep dive into cults and like, every type of cult.

And I said, well, there's this new show coming out called Shiny Happy People. Let's watch it together. So we sat down. Neither of us had really heard of the Duggars specifically or watched any of that.

So it was a big, big learning thing.

Sam: 00:13:58

Yeah.

Hana: 00:13:59

But when the little umbrella image comes up, right, which is this. This big umbrella with God and then the husband. Yes, that pops up and we both went. We had that now church. Why did we have that in our church?

And it was kind of like this. We knew it so well. It was so familiar. Then they started talking about blanket training and I'm not responding to that. I'm just watching, right?

And Mum's sitting there with her hands on her face going, we did that. And I'm like whipping around going, what do you mean? What do you mean you did that? And she's like, it was just what you did.

You would put the blanket down and like, it was how you started training them to sit in a church service. And I was like, oh, my God. Like, yeah, that's from birth.

Sam: 00:14:52

Yeah.

Hana: 00:14:53

You're being trained to behave. Like, no wonder we're all so traumatized.

Sam: 00:15:00

Just a touch.

Hana: 00:15:02

I'm watching this from, like, oh, wow, that's real up that they did that. And then Mum's like, oh, yeah.

Sam: 00:15:09

Oh, gosh. I mean, what a moment for both of you, though. Like.

Like a sort of, you know, to use a biblical reference, the veil is lifted for her and you're going, oh, like, that's really good. But also. Really.

Hana: 00:15:25

Yeah. So she. I think she. She'd never even. Part of deconstructing, I think, is just looking at things, Right. You can call it shadow work if you want to.

Like shining a light on things that you might have forgotten about. And I think for her, that was a big moment of how did I do something like that and never question it.

Sam: 00:15:46

Yeah.

Hana: 00:15:47

So it was for. I mean, for us, it's brought us closer. She sends me all her favorite Culture podcast episodes she finds now and.

Sam: 00:15:54

Oh, I love that. Okay, let's rewind a bit because I like, as a kid and as a teenager, were you taught?

Well, I feel like the answer is always yes when I ask this question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Were you taught purity culture messaging?

Hana: 00:16:10

Oh, yes.

Sam: 00:16:12

What did that look like? What flavor of purity messaging were you taught?

Hana: 00:16:16

We were taught the. Here is a piece of paper, pass it around, everyone scrunch it up, we can't get it flat again. Yes. Same with a $20 note.

Type of, you know, if we do this to it, it's never going to be, you know, your. Your value is still there to God, but to everyone else they can see, etc, etc. And that was done in youth group.

And I remember even telling my mum that and she was like, I had no idea they were doing stuff like that. You guys were just upstairs and we, you know, on a Friday night, we weren't watching what you were being taught.

Yeah, like, that was a big part of the messaging.

Sam: 00:16:48

Yeah.

Sam: 00:16:49

I'm assuming being right. Of a Pentecostal church, because I find that this happens more so in those spaces than others.

Although I was not in a Pentecostal church and it still happened. But did you feel like purity culture was very intrinsically wrapped up in diet culture?

Hana: 00:17:04

I have talked about this quite publicly. So I had an eating disorder.

Sam: 00:17:07

Yeah.

Hana: 00:17:08

And I reckon nine out of ten girls in my youth group had an eating disorder.

Sam: 00:17:13

Yeah.

Hana: 00:17:14

And part of that was I have under. I had undiagnosed ADHD and autism growing up. And obviously that eating disorders is actually a big indicator of that being undiagnosed also.

I mean, but mental health was demons, not actually mental health. So there was no hope for me at that point. And the pressure to look good, the pressure to.

There was that kind of concept of which we also see in New Age circles as well. So people have to be careful. This is what I teach a lot of people on this purity of food that comes along.

Like, oh, we only eat organic, we only eat this. And this has higher vibrations is what you might hear in the New Age side. Right. And we had people that were in the. Definitely more cult.

We had friends in more culty style churches that were a lot more closed off, that would live on almost like a little commune where they had their own orchard and things like that, which isn't bad by itself. But when it's done in that way, there is this purity aspect to it that comes in. Definitely. So there was. There was that.

There Was almost like a competitive vibe with the girls. Like, well, I only ate a muesli bar today. Yes. I only did this. And we would see it the most coming out at.

At youth camp, where you're all sort of shoved into a room together. And. Yeah. So I think it. It breeds that kind of culture.

It didn't help that it was also the early thousands, which was not a great time for that anyway, with the messaging in the media. So.

But yes, I. I have often linked purity culture to not just what you do with your body, but what you put into your body in many different forms, how you dress your body. You'd have people that were like, we only wear organic linen.

Sam: 00:19:09

Yeah, no, yeah, absolutely. I. I talk about it as a triangle of purity culture, diet culture, and rape culture. And they're all wrapped up in one.

They all feed one another, they all breed to one another. It just is, like, because purity culture teaches you that your body is not your own and that if something.

Something was to happen to you, that is absolutely your fault. And so it is just. All of it is just all, like.

Sam: 00:19:36

Intrinsically wrapped up in one lovely little churchy bundle.

Hana: 00:19:41

Well, the problem with the church messaging is that if something good happens, it's because of God. Yeah. That happens. It's your fault.

Sam: 00:19:49

Yeah.

Hana: 00:19:50

So anything bad, you internalize and turn it around on yourself. And anything good is never yours. And you can never be proud of that because it's always. You give that glory to God.

Sam: 00:20:00

Yeah, absolutely. Like, oh, I mean, all of it. Just you lose you in it.

Hana: 00:20:07

Correct. And it does disconnect you from your body. Yeah, everything. Yeah.

Sam: 00:20:14

I like to ask this question because usually there is a pretty big shift, not for everybody, but for some. And based on your Instagram, I'm pretty sure there will be. During this period of time while you are in church, who was God to you?

Hana: 00:20:31

I always struggled because I was told what God was supposed to be.

Sam: 00:20:37

Yeah.

Hana: 00:20:37

Which was fear God. Yeah. And I was like, but why?

Sam: 00:20:41

Which is a good and a bad thing.

Hana: 00:20:43

Right.

Sam: 00:20:43

Like, that's.

Hana: 00:20:45

It's a good thing to fear God. And I was like, but isn't he supposed to be, like a loving father, but that sort of loving father?

And look, my own father is very loving, but we grew up with, you know, the belt and smacking and all of that, because that's what was normal at the time. And also in the church was definitely advocated for.

And so there was this aspect of punishment and trying, you know, constant striving for proving oneself in order to have a Reward, AKA heaven, or even just like not being smacked or whatever it was. So it was this wrapped up in that like fatherly figure vibes.

And then the opposites of God is meant to be all loving, all kind, all good, all moral, all just. And I'm reading the Bible going, he's not getting the doubt. Your doubts, not your faith.

Sam: 00:21:43

Yeah.

Hana: 00:21:44

The devil whispering in your ear. So it was really confusing. It was, it was very confusing. I was desperate to experience God.

Sam: 00:21:53

Yeah.

Hana: 00:21:53

I did experience many spiritual things in the church that then later when we get kicked out, I'm sitting there questioning my entire life, like, what did it all mean? Was it real? Was it true? Did I make it up? Am I crazy?

Sam: 00:22:09

Yeah, yeah.

Hana: 00:22:10

I think it's a normal reaction.

Sam: 00:22:12

Yeah, absolutely. Did you feel like you had a personal relationship with God at the time?

Hana: 00:22:19

I think I had convinced myself that I did. And I think I was. I'd put so much into that that you kind of almost like gaslight yourself into it.

Sam: 00:22:34

Yeah.

Hana: 00:22:34

If that makes sense.

Sam: 00:22:35

Well, you can't not. I don't think it's so risky to allow yourself to even follow a thread of that.

Hana: 00:22:41

Yes. Because.

Sam: 00:22:42

And so I think you. Yeah, I think part of it is gaslighting. I think part of it is just, you know, confirmation bias. You make things make sense.

You, you know, I use the term mental gymnastics. You make it make sense even if it doesn't make sense. Because for it to not make sense is too risky and too dangerous.

Hana: 00:23:00

The consequences of it is so high.

Sam: 00:23:03

Yeah.

Hana: 00:23:04

So absolutely. I mean, I. I had a, A vision at the altar call once when.

Sam: 00:23:11

I was a very godly thing to have happen.

Hana: 00:23:13

So godly. And when I came to, I told the pastor and my mum that I'd had this vision that I was going to be a missionary. Right.

Because I'd seen this like, image of me looking down at these children. I was obviously from an adult perspective and there were these children standing on like a dirt floor. They had brown skin.

I was like, obviously this is a missions trip because that looks like a 40 hour famine ad. And that was all I had in my, like, ads.

Sam: 00:23:46

Oh my gosh, please. For people internationally. Probably have no idea what we're talking about. About those ads. Just like, take you back far out.

Hana: 00:23:56

I used to do world vision every year. Like the 40 hour.

Sam: 00:23:58

Yeah, I mean, of course. Because why wouldn't you? Like, it was the world vision ads and the compassion ads.

Hana: 00:24:04

Yep.

Sam: 00:24:05

Yeah, sorry, continue. I just had like a blast from the past.

Hana: 00:24:09

And like, my grandparents were missionaries throughout India and Papua New guinea and Indonesia. My grandpa, preacher. And so it was kind of like, obviously that's my path as well.

So I told the pastor, I told my mum, and, you know, I had this vision from God whilst at the altar, desperately asking him, Jesus, to come into my heart and to show me that he was real.

Sam: 00:24:32

Yeah.

Hana: 00:24:32

So for me, that was proof. Like, I just got a vision. How much more proof do I want from that? Right.

And the pastor had said, you have the gift of prophecy, and that this was, like, obviously my path. And I remember turning to Mum and going, but are there women preachers? She was like, yeah, yeah, there are. You know, like, not really. That's okay.

It might change in 20 years.

Sam: 00:25:02

Not this flavor of place anyway. Yeah.

Hana: 00:25:05

So I had that in my head from a very young age. I've got, like, scraps of paper where I've written what I want to be when I'm older.

And it's like a mum, a missionary, a preacher, an actress and a chef.

Sam: 00:25:17

I love that. I love that combo. I used to describe. I wanted to be the seventh heaven mum. I wanted to be Mrs. I think it was Camden. The Camdens.

I wanted to be Mrs. Camden, the.

Sam: 00:25:29

Preacher'S wife with the seven kids.

Sam: 00:25:32

Now I have a wife and a dog, and I'm a therapist. I'm just, like, so far from that. And. But that's totally fine.

But, I mean, you don't really get any other picture to have in your mind of what you are allowed to want.

Hana: 00:25:49

So when I was. When I was 16, my parents split up. Yeah, that's not allowed in the church. Absolutely not. So they divorced. It was incredibly, incredibly messy.

Like, a really, really bad divorce.

And during that time, the pastor, like the head pastor's wife, when Mum and I walked into church one day, came up to us and just said, oh, you don't think you can come back here, do you? Oh, my gosh. Like, what a bitch.

Sam: 00:26:22

The audacity.

Hana: 00:26:25

And this is, mind you, family, friends. Like, we used to go over for dinner almost weekly with them. I grew up with their kids. Their kids went to my school. Like, how dare you?

And so we didn't. We took that as, like, obviously, we're not welcome here. And so we left. And then my brain's like, well, wasn't I supposed to be a missionary?

Sam: 00:26:50

Yeah.

Hana: 00:26:50

What am I supposed to do with that? So for a little while, I think probably up until 18, I was looking for another church. I would try other churches and they never felt right.

Sam: 00:27:02

Yeah. Because.

Sam: 00:27:03

Did you also have the Messaging that you couldn't be a real Christian if you weren't in church. Yes.

Hana: 00:27:08

100.

Sam: 00:27:08

Yeah.

Hana: 00:27:09

I felt so much guilt not going to church. Yeah. And so I would do my own church.

Like watching it on tv, on the Christian channel when it was when I wasn't there and going to my friends churches, which all felt slightly different. And I think this even extended to when I was like 21, I think was the last time I stepped foot in a church. And it was a totally different.

It was on Christmas Day because I was like, that's a non negotiable. I have to go Christmas Day. And the only church at that point, I was living in Canada in this tiny little ski town.

The only church was Episcopalian or something. And I was so weirded out. I was like, what on earth.

Sam: 00:27:52

Yeah.

Hana: 00:27:52

Is everyone doing? And saying. And I just walked out and went, this is not for me. This last time I went to a church willingly.

But when we'd left the church, I'm obviously questioning things.

But I did start to that separation and making friends outside of the church and, you know, making friends that the goal wasn't to convert them, it was just to be friends with them. Getting a job that wasn't, you know, volunteering at church, which is where I did my work experience in year 10, like at church.

They had so much of my time. I think it started to crack that notion that everybody who's not a Christian is bad, which was so deeply ingrained.

And I was like, oh, these people have stories, they have lives, they have reasons for thinking and doing the things that they do.

Sam: 00:28:37

Yeah.

Hana: 00:28:38

So it did start to crack it open a little bit. And then this is the wild part.

When I was 20, I had a bad breakup with a boyfriend who we had decided to go on a trip together, which in my brain was like, we are deepening things, guys. This is going. We're going to the next. We're going on a holiday overseas together. Obviously, he's the one. And we went to. We chose to go to Cambodia.

Go to Cambodia very quickly. I think traveling with someone is the best way to know if they are with you. And he was not. And to the point where I'm quite a strong person.

I sent him home literally on a plane. It's like, we are not doing this.

Sam: 00:29:21

But I love everything about that sentence. He pissed me off. So I sent him home.

Hana: 00:29:28

He got a bit drunk and said the. Said the wrong thing. I just went, no, absolutely not. So he went home and I was like, well, I booked two weeks I've got two weeks off work.

I'm taking that two weeks. So I traveled by myself through Cambodia, and on one of the last days, I was in this hostel in the main city, Phnom Penh.

And I'd made friends with the people who ran the hostel, and especially being alone had sort of networked a little bit. I said, I don't know what to do on my last day.

And one of the guys that works there, his brother, he goes, oh, he rides a moped and takes people on moped rides to pay himself through uni. Did you want to just go somewhere he can take you? And I was like, how much would it be for the day? He can just take me wherever he normally goes.

I'll just tag along.

Sam: 00:30:14

Yeah.

Hana: 00:30:14

Like, sweet. So we did. So Po was his name. And I said, what do you usually do? And he's like, oh, this is my favorite place for lunch. This is this.

And he goes, and sometimes I'll pop into this orphanage with some rice. And I was like, great, let's grab two bags of rice. So I'm on the back of this moped. 20 kilos of rice.

Like, I'm, like, trying to hold them under my arms and hold onto a moped, which. The roads over there are quite intense. We go to this orphanage, and they gave me, like, a little tour. Like, oh, yeah, have a look.

And so we're standing inside this classroom, which is where they teach English, And I look down, and there's these beautiful children looking up at me standing on a dirt floor. And it was my vision from when I was, like, five years old.

Sam: 00:30:58

Yeah.

Hana: 00:30:59

And even now, like, I'm getting full body chills. And I was like, what the does this mean? Was it real? But then I was like, I'm not a missionary.

Sam: 00:31:07

Yeah.

Hana: 00:31:09

So I'm having this, like, existential crisis.

Sam: 00:31:12

Yeah. I was like, how does that not blur absolutely everything up for you?

Hana: 00:31:16

Absolutely. So I'm, like, freaking out, but also trying to, like, mask and act totally normal in front of everyone. Like, oh, hi. Yeah.

In my brain going, what the is going on? And so I had to sit with that fully and be like, okay, obviously, I had a vision that came true. It wasn't.

I. I misinterpreted, because I'm not a missionary. I am a solo backpacker in Cambodia. And I sort of went, okay, well, maybe it's a sign from who knows what that I'm supposed to be here.

So I went home, sold my car, sold everything, and moved to Cambodia.

Sam: 00:31:58

You don't do things At Har Stew you.

Hana: 00:32:03

Oh, goodness. For a couple of months. And it was really, really tough work. But I, I learned a lot. I learned a lot being there.

And then I really enjoyed being by myself and traveling and learning these things. So I ended up applying for a. Because that particular work, I was like, I don't think I have the. I'm very, very, very sensitive in a lot of ways.

And it was, I was seeing a lot of things that just were. I couldn't fix and they were so heartbreaking. And so I thought, okay, this was wonderful, I've made a difference.

But also, this is not my long term path. But it had opened my eyes that like there was more outside of Australia.

So I got a working holiday visa and went where again, we're here in the world is totally different to where I live because I like extremes. And so I went, where's the coldest place in the world right now? And it was Banff in Canada. So I went there. I went there for two years.

But I met my husband over there.

Sam: 00:32:58

Nice perks.

Hana: 00:32:59

It was kind of like, oh, I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't done this. If I hadn't done that. You know, it was kind of that little flow on effect.

So I see it as it was totally meant to be because he's Aussie, we grew up two suburbs away, we have mutual friends. But it took going to the other side of the world to meet each other. Yeah, A little bit crazy.

Sam: 00:33:17

And so throughout all of this time of like questioning, you've had this vision.

You're now in Cambodia, you've now had that experience and I imagine learned a lot about yourself and the world being at that orphanage and then over, like, what is all of this? Like, like what is. Because a lot of people don't realize that, like you can leave the church and the church doesn't exactly leave you magically.

Right. Doesn't just automatically disappear.

The conditioning, the obedience training, the fear of, you know, punishment and eternal torment and all of the stuff doesn't just magically disappear. So what was all of that like for you, particularly going into different cultures?

Hana: 00:34:01

Yeah, I think that was a big eye opening moment.

Sam: 00:34:05

Yeah.

Hana: 00:34:07

Especially seeing cultures where Christianity is not the majority.

Sam: 00:34:11

Yeah.

Hana: 00:34:11

And I did a bit more travel through Singapore and Thailand as well at that time. And it was, there was those usual questions which I had had as a child. What if someone's not born into a church like us?

Sam: 00:34:25

Yeah, fair.

Hana: 00:34:27

Why don't they get the opportunity? And then it was, well, that's why we have to be missionaries. That's why we have to evangelize. That's why we have to speak the word.

So at this point, though, when I'm over there and I'm traveling, I still believe in God.

Sam: 00:34:42

Okay.

Hana: 00:34:42

I used to say, though, I'm agnostic. That was. That felt safe. I believe there is a God, but I don't think I have all the answers, and I don't think they had all the answers.

I think there's something missing.

Sam: 00:34:55

At what point did you stop calling yourself a Christian?

Hana: 00:34:58

I reckon maybe three years after being in the church, when I couldn't find another church that felt right.

Sam: 00:35:07

Yeah.

Hana: 00:35:08

And it sort of. I don't even know. I don't know if there was a specific point. I think it just sort of slowly dropped away or got filled up with other things.

Sam: 00:35:18

Yeah.

Hana: 00:35:18

And still very drawn to. Like, I'd still listen to hillsong music. I would still pray.

I still had all of that, but it was like I'd just sort of taken the core elements that I thought were necessary and left the rest.

Sam: 00:35:32

Yeah.

Hana: 00:35:33

Then. And I think, as well, with the divorce, like, my dad was still allowed to go to the church. How is that fair?

So, like, there was a few of those sorts of questions.

Sam: 00:35:44

Because he has the right body part. Why? That's why he's allowed to still go to the church.

Hana: 00:35:51

Exactly. So. And, you know, none of the friends ostracized him. So there was a bit of interesting thoughts going on around all that.

Sam: 00:36:00

I mean, did you lose community? Like, did you lose friends, Everything?

Hana: 00:36:04

Everyone.

Sam: 00:36:05

Yeah.

Hana: 00:36:05

I had to move schools because school got so. My school was a Christian high school that taught creationism instead of science.

So even when I moved schools, I couldn't take a science subject in year 11 because I didn't have any science learnings or background.

Sam: 00:36:21

Yeah.

Hana: 00:36:21

Like, it's so bad. We lost. We lost everyone. I have reconnected with a few that were like, my close friends growing up, that felt like cousins.

But there was a few years where no one talked to me or to my mum, still not to my mum. So it was. Yeah, it was. It was a shock to have all of that taken away instantly. Everyone, you know, just turning around.

And that took a long time to sort of process in terms of. I think that's with my mom as well. She. That was the hurt part. It was like. And taught to you, like, that's church hurt. That's not God.

But the church is built in the essence. An image of God.

Sam: 00:37:02

Yes.

Hana: 00:37:04

Anyways, so that. Yeah, that Was. That was pretty shocking. And I think as well, when I met who is now my husband, he grew up Catholic, but not strict Catholic.

And so I would say things like, you know, but do you believe in God? And he's like, I don't know, probably not. I was like, what do you mean? What do you believe in then? What, what do you think happens when we die?

Like, I was so shocked that someone could just not believe that, especially if they'd raised. Were raised in it. Because we were sort of taught that. I mean, Catholics who taught the Catholicism.

Sam: 00:37:38

Catholics are not real Christians. Obviously they're not real.

Hana: 00:37:41

But I still had the idea that, like. But you still believe in a God, right? And he's kind of like, not really. So I would, you know, but what about this?

And then I would say something like about, you know, being slain in the spirit or speaking in tongues or healing hands. And he was like, I'm sorry, what, what did you say? And I was like, you know, when you speak in tongues? And he's like, I don't know what that is.

I'm like, what? You didn't do that in, in church? He's like, no. And so the process of having to explain it to someone who was.

He's actually quite scientifically minded, you know, he's like, show me the peer reviewed articles. Like having to prove my case.

Sam: 00:38:23

Yeah.

Hana: 00:38:24

Helped break it all down because I was like, oh, this is weird. Why did we do that? Where does that actually come from? And I'm sure, as you can all tell, I'm very.

I like to question things and find out which the church hated. And they stomped out of me. So it's kind of all coming back a bit. At that point I could ask the questions. I had Google. Right. I had access to that.

So that helped to pull those last strands out.

Sam: 00:38:50

Yeah.

Hana: 00:38:52

And then I had an experience when I was. I ended up working in Louisiana for a little bit on a goat dairy farm.

Sam: 00:39:03

I would like to say that that's probably the most random thing you said, but it's probably not. But I love goats. They're adorable.

Hana: 00:39:12

Goats are so cute. Oh my goodness, they're the best. I was like feeding the baby goats. They were like, they were so cute.

Anyway, so I was, I was staying in Louisiana, which I had felt really drawn to because on that journey out of the church, I had sort of started reading and watching things that you. We weren't allowed to in the church, like Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles, which are heavily set around New Orleans and Louisiana.

And then True blood came out, and I was like, oh, my gosh. It's, like, so evil and demonic and campy, and I love it. Oh, I kind of absorbed a lot of that. And I was like, I'm going to this place.

This place sounds amazing. And I did. And then I had this spiritual experience that was terrifying, and it threw me right back in the church.

And this was an experience of sleep paralysis.

Sam: 00:40:02

Yeah.

Hana: 00:40:03

But it didn't meet the usual definitions of sleep paralysis. And my. Straight away, calling on the name of, like, in Jesus name, be gone. Like that. This is demon. I'm being attacked. Obviously.

Sam: 00:40:16

Yeah.

Hana: 00:40:16

And it didn't work. And this was my first time very fervently, very authentically, like, calling on the name of Jesus. This.

Sam: 00:40:26

Yeah.

Hana: 00:40:27

Situation that I thought needed it and was told for so long that it would work, and it did nothing. And I was like, oh, no. Oh, no.

Sam: 00:40:38

I mean, I imagine that. I imagine that was absolutely terrifying on top of the terrifying aspect of what you were already going through.

Hana: 00:40:48

Like, I presumed I was getting dragged off to hell. Like, I was. I cannot describe to you the terror, but I'm sure you can imagine.

Sam: 00:40:55

Yeah.

Hana: 00:40:56

And it was every fear that I'd had growing up when my parents told me there were demons hiding under my bed, waiting for me coming to life. And I was totally alone in a caravan, which, for the US People, a trailer surrounded by cornfields in rural Louisiana.

If you've ever seen signs, cornfields are very creepy. So that was terrifying. As soon as I, like, it just ended up going. But not because of anything I did.

And I'm doing the whole, you know, there's angels on every corner of this bed. Like, everything that I could think of. I ended up putting on hillsong music very loud for the whole night. I didn't sleep. I had the lights on.

I was petrified. And I talked to the girl the next day, one of the girls that lived there. And I was like, I. She's gonna think I'm absolutely nuts.

But I went up and I was like, has anyone ever had a weird thing happen in that trailer? And she just looked at me and went, oh, what did you bring with you from New Orleans? And I was like, you don't think I'm, like, crazy?

And she's like, this is Louisiana. This is, like, the most spiritually active place in the world. Everyone has a haunted house. Everyone has seen a ghost. And I was like, okay, cool.

So what do I do? And she's like, I'll call my friend. He's a witch. My Brain did two things. Number one, he's a witch. What do you mean?

Sam: 00:42:20

Yeah, wrong pro. Wrong pronoun used. Yeah.

Hana: 00:42:24

Which. Which is a gender neutral term for anyone curious. B, he thinks he's a witch.

Sam: 00:42:30

Yeah, yeah.

Hana: 00:42:31

This.

Sam: 00:42:31

The inner skeptic would be, like, huge.

Hana: 00:42:34

So anyway, so she called him. He was also a male nurse, so my brain was just, like, blown.

Sam: 00:42:42

Oh, gosh.

Hana: 00:42:44

And he came along, and at. At that time, I had no knowledge of anything that was going on, but he used what's called a pendulum.

And he said, yes, there is a spirit here that is basically attached to you. I can't get rid of them, but I can protect you from it. And I was like, in my head, okay, whatever.

I'll just roll with this because I've started this ball rolling now, and I.

Sam: 00:43:08

Don'T want to be rude to the.

Hana: 00:43:09

People I'm staying with. They did something, and I wasn't sure at the time. Now I know he boarded the space. And then that night I was again. Hillsong.

Music on, lights on, like, straight back. This is like the age of 23. So straight back in the church, even though I'd been out for, like, yeah, so long.

And I heard this, like, scraping on the roof that sounded like nails on metal. And that was all that happened. There was nothing else. And I'm rationalizing it going, that's just a tree in the wind on the roof of a caravan. That's.

That's that sound, isn't it? But of course, the next day, I turn around, there's nothing that is remotely in distance of doing that.

So that was a big, I guess, wake up call that there are supernatural something. I don't know if they're demons, but maybe. And it was kind of like this weird. But the thing I did didn't work. But what he did did work.

Sam: 00:44:08

Yeah.

Hana: 00:44:09

Why is that? How come? Where did that come from? So that I guess blasted me open in terms of exploring other forms of spirituality.

So I teach now a lot of people how to not only deconstruct from evangelical Christianity, but how to reconstruct a more aligned version of spirituality, which is so hard to do. And there is no one talking about it, because a lot of people are like, all right, I've left the church. That's it for me.

But then there are people who are like, I've left that church, but there's something else. Like, I want something, but I don't think it's Christianity.

And, you know, there's lots of other religions you can go into, but some of them have those same issues.

So being able to do something that is spiritually authentic, feels aligned but isn't harming you is tricky to reconstruct, Especially in the face of anything not Christian is evil.

Sam: 00:45:06

Absolutely.

Sam: 00:45:07

And especially there is such a common experience for people to just leave one form of fundamentalism and go into another and to just. You know, I even see it in the deconstruction space. Like, you can be so fundamental about deconstructing that you are still exhibiting the same.

Same dynamics, the same behaviors, the same qualities. You're just talking about the opposite stuff than the you that you used to believe. But the control behavior dynamics are still the same thing.

Like, it's still the same fundamentalism just in a. With a different flavor.

Hana: 00:45:40

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So I've been on that journey for a long time. I now call myself a witch.

Sam: 00:45:48

Does so.

Hana: 00:45:49

Which was in itself a part of my deconstruction. Yeah.

Sam: 00:45:53

Was that moment in Louisiana, Was that like the catapult to, like, rebuilding a new sense of self that felt like yours?

Hana: 00:46:02

A little bit. So after. After I'd worked there, I went back to New Orleans and I went into. Because I was still like, what happened to what is this?

What is it going to continue now that I've left that spiritually, like, protected space that was. Find what's going to happen? So I went into a shop that was called Voodoo. Voodoo Authentica.

And it was funny because I wouldn't have gone into that shop before that experience. There's no way. But suddenly I was like, they're going to know what's up. I'm going to talk to them.

Sam: 00:46:36

I'm going to ask a real therapist question here. Right. Because, like, your brain can rationalize that and go, like, this experience was. Was worked like, worked in inverted commas.

But how is your body responding in that?

Because, like, your nervous system is so hardwired to evangelical Christianity that the first time I picked up an oracle card, I feel like I near had a full panic attack.

Hana: 00:47:04

Oh, no, I will tell you. I will tell you that story. But this felt different. Right. This felt like the spirits of the. The place. Like, Louisiana. Like, this is very.

A Louisiana experience. I think I just rationalized it as, that's this something that happens here.

Sam: 00:47:19

Okay.

Hana: 00:47:20

But, yeah, no, Tara came later and.

Sam: 00:47:21

Right.

Hana: 00:47:23

But at that time, I just thought, I'm gonna go in there into this shop, and I'm just gonna ask for advice. And so I said, this is what happened to me. I don't. I don't know why don't know how. I don't know if it's still there.

And we ended up figuring out I'd done a graveyard tour throughout New Orleans before I went, like the day I went to the goat farm.

Sam: 00:47:45

Yeah.

Hana: 00:47:46

And he was like, you are very spiritually open. You are just like, hello, everyone, come and join me. And someone did. And he's like, here is your graveyard etiquette from now.

If you step foot into a cemetery, you were going to go in backwards and you were going to leave backwards because you never came and you never left. You were going to leave an offering, you were going to do this. And I was like, okay. And so for me that was like, rules again, right? Spiritual rules.

Sam: 00:48:11

Oh, yes.

Hana: 00:48:12

Tell me what I need to do. I buy those rules. They're quite clever. But it was a little bit of guidance without him saying, you know, that there's a book that we have to.

He's like, this is experience based. This is what we all know from experience like this. I was like, okay, he's giving me answers. That's great. Gave me a little travel protection, oil.

And off I went. And I was good.

I was so good until I went back to Victoria in Australia and decided by this point, because I was so intrigued and I had deep dived into everything ghost and spirit related at this point. Yeah, really, If I find something's kind of scary, I think I. I want to understand it. So that's what I did.

And we went on a ghost tour of Aradale Asylum, which is out in the country in Victoria. And it is a humongous old asylum. It's like a four hour ghost tour. It's massive at night at like 8pm this is why.

Sam: 00:49:13

When else would you do it? Obviously.

Hana: 00:49:15

Anyway, I took my.

My then boyfriend, now husband and a few people from my work at the time and we walked into this building and I walk in, I'm like, oh, do they keep horses in here? Why does it smell like a stable? It smells like hay and straw. And everyone sort of just gave me a weird look and just kept filing in.

And I was like, come on, you get. That is so overpowering.

Sam: 00:49:40

Yeah.

Hana: 00:49:41

And my husband's like, are you having a stroke? Are you okay? I don't smell anything. And I was like, this is so physical for like, how can you not smell that?

Sam: 00:49:51

I love that. Everybody.

I don't know whether the rest of the world does that, but everybody in Australia, as soon as you smell something that nobody else is smelling, you are automatically having.

Hana: 00:50:00

I think technically it's meant to be burnt toast.

Sam: 00:50:02

Yeah.

Hana: 00:50:03

But anyways, so we all file in, and the guide actually turns around and he said, that is so weird that you say that, because this is where they used to perform the lobotomies.

And back in the day, they did not have running water, so they would cover the floor in a mixture of hay and straw that would soak up the blood, and then they would brush it out at the end of the day. And then everyone, you know, does the whip around. Look at me. And I'm like, what? How long ago was this? And he's like, like a hundred years ago.

Sam: 00:50:31

So at this point, everybody thinks you're batshit crazy.

Hana: 00:50:33

Yeah. And I'm like, how. How did I smell that? How did I. How did I smell that?

So then it sent me on a research journey into, like, smelling things that aren't there, which is not the right Google search. It's the one I wanted.

Sam: 00:50:48

Yep, fair.

Hana: 00:50:49

But eventually found my way into how some people have. Have, you know, psychic senses, and that smell is one of them.

And so that sort of started to push open that side of things because I was like, but psychic. Psychics, real. I thought that was demons. That didn't feel demonic. That was just a smell.

Like, you know, I thought those demons whispering in their ears and. But then it happened to me, and I didn't ask for it or do it. And, you know, everyone saw it. Like, I didn't make it up. I had witnesses.

So it was this again, like, these holding two sort of beliefs at once, having to fuel them apart. So that sort of set me on a bit more of this current journey that I'm on, because I liked that. I was like, that was cool. That was kind of.

Sam: 00:51:37

It also, I imagine, felt real for you. Like, of all of the other spiritual experiences at church, I imagine it felt real.

Hana: 00:51:48

That is a lot more validation than I ever got for anything in the church. And then I was like, okay, so clairvoyance is visions. I've had visions in the church. Yeah, that did come true. So, okay, maybe it was that. Not God.

Sam: 00:52:02

Yeah. So I was waiting to be like, at what point did you piece that together?

Hana: 00:52:07

That was then. That was like, yeah. So that's, you know, four. Four years later.

Three or four years later from me realizing that vision was true to going, oh, okay, maybe it's. It's not from God. Maybe it's from something else. Where is it from?

So then that sort of started that if anyone is curious, if anyone's like, okay, this is, like, clicking in my brain. The thing that really helped me reconstruct my spiritual concept of deities.

Sam: 00:52:37

Yeah.

Hana: 00:52:37

Spirits, things that are outside of us, was reading into Hermetic philosophy. There is a book called the Kybalion by three initiates. It's not the most perfect book in the world.

It is very old now, but it gave me a new way to consider the fact that maybe there is one big creator being, and we are all versions of that creator being, experiencing itself in a multitude of ways. Ways. And so are any forms of spirits, ghosts, deities from other religions as well.

Because in my brain, I'm like, I think I've always wanted to hold that belief that why can't all religions be true?

Sam: 00:53:16

Yeah.

Hana: 00:53:16

And I'll tell you what, reading the Chronicles of Narnia very young and reading the Last Battle, which is the last book where followers of Tash also got into heaven, that was a big, crucial part of that as well. I think I'd always been like, that makes sense to me. You know, that's. It's not based on believing the exact thing and following those rules exactly.

It's based on who you are and how you do this. And I don't now hold the concept of heaven and hell at all, but along the journey, I did.

Sam: 00:53:46

So while you are learning all of this new. You're gaining all this new knowledge, you're learning all of this information about deities and all of this sort of thing.

How, like, do you instantly. I don't want to use the word believe, but do you instantly resonate with this? Or is there like a. Yeah, but, like, that's what I was taught.

Like, you know, as in, like, you know, Abrahamic religion, God, sort of, like, belief system.

Hana: 00:54:18

Yeah. I think it was beginning to slowly chip away at that.

Sam: 00:54:21

Yeah.

Hana: 00:54:21

And replace it. Right. With things that suddenly felt like they clicked or made more sense. I was like, oh, okay.

Mind you, when I first started working as a professional witch and tarot reader and astrologer, I was like, don't ask me about working with deities. I don't do that. Yeah, I've done that. Not again. Okay, now I do.

It took me a long time to even consider that, because I was like, I've worked with a deity that was God, and I didn't like it. Yeah, fair. So it took a while to even just turn around and go, okay, why didn't I. What can I do different? Is this for me? Yeah, go from there.

But with the tower, for example. Yeah. Little whisper in my head for a while, like, I was reading tea leaves. I was doing, like, Herbal healing and a few things like that.

That felt fine. People would describe me as really witchy. That felt fine. If they said, you're a witch, that was like the line. No, add a Y to that. Thank you.

I'm not a witch. I'm witchy.

Sam: 00:55:21

So descriptive was okay. Identity, not so much.

Hana: 00:55:24

Correct. Yes. Right. So then I said to my husband, I feel like something's telling me I need to buy a tarot deck.

Sam: 00:55:33

Yeah.

Hana: 00:55:34

It was like, cool, go buy one. And I was like.

Sam: 00:55:39

Yeah, what do.

Hana: 00:55:40

You mean, go buy one? He's like, okay, so don't. And I was like, but I think I have to. It took me two years.

Sam: 00:55:46

Oh, wow.

Hana: 00:55:47

Back and forth. I'd walk into a store, I'd maybe look at them. I wouldn't touch them because that would open a portal to hell and a demon was going to pop out.

And, like, I thought I'd got rid of that, but I had not. It was such a strong belief. And I tried. I was like, maybe I'll buy one for someone else. I'll buy one for someone else. Right. I never did that either.

I was like, maybe I'll just wait someone to give me one. Like, you're supposed to be gifted one. That's a lie. You're not supposed to be gifted one.

Sam: 00:56:16

Oh, is it?

Hana: 00:56:17

Yeah, it's a myth.

Sam: 00:56:18

Oh, I did not know that. I'm so thankful I bought my own.

Hana: 00:56:24

Yeah. There's a myth that you're supposed to be gifted your first tarot deck.

I think that just comes from a sense of, like, elitism and being like, you're not real. I'm real. Which. So, yeah, that part's definitely not real. But I thought maybe that would happen.

Not that I knew anybody who would ever have a tarot deck to give me. So I toyed with the idea, and then one day, I just sucked it up and went in and bought one. And it wasn't the traditional one that you see everywhere.

It was like a very fairy, ethereal, flowy, soft, pastel one, because that felt safer. I remember handing it to the lady, and she's like, Yep, that's like 35 bucks. And I'm just in shock.

Like, do you not realize what a big moment this is for me?

Sam: 00:57:13

Yeah.

Hana: 00:57:13

But, like, that was internally, externally, I'm like, yep, okay, thank you. Bye. But since then, I think that was the last. That was almost felt like a last chord that was cut. Because I went home, no demons popped out.

Nothing bad happened. And I've played with that tarot deck and Many more. And I have, like 50.

Sam: 00:57:32

Yeah.

Hana: 00:57:33

Every single day since. I loved it. I love. Like, it clicked perfectly. I was like, this is my life.

And then a few years later turned around and was like, I'm now doing this professionally. This is my identity.

Sam: 00:57:47

Not just descriptive anymore.

Hana: 00:57:48

Yes.

Sam: 00:57:49

Was there anything that you did over that two years to help you get to that point of where you were able to actually buy the tarot deck? Like, was it a conscious process or did time just pass?

Hana: 00:58:02

I read books on how to read tarot.

Sam: 00:58:03

Okay.

Hana: 00:58:04

I never. I'd never touched tarot. I listened to podcast again.

Sam: 00:58:08

It was like exposure therapy.

Hana: 00:58:10

I was exposure therapy myself. And, you know, I'd look at things.

I'd maybe, like, do a pick a card on someone's, like, email or something, but it was all, like, little tiny bits here and there. I had had in Singapore, a bird pulled a card for me. It wasn't tarot. It's a different form of divination.

The lady read my palm, and at the time I was like, is my boyfriend the one? And she was like, absolutely not. And then I broke up with in Cambodia, and I was like, I'm never doing that again.

Sam: 00:58:44

Oh, gosh.

Hana: 00:58:45

But, yes. So that was it. That wasn't tarot. That didn't feel. I was kind of roped into that. That was different.

But, yeah, it had a few little things along the way and then finally dived in. And when I dive in, I dive in. So, yes.

Sam: 00:59:03

How to go home.

Hana: 00:59:04

Now. I say my witchcraft is a love letter to the little girl who was so afraid in the face of the demons and the mighty power of the church.

It's me taking that power back.

Sam: 00:59:14

Oh, I love that.

Hana: 00:59:16

And witches have historically been quite anti church, so I'm like, oh, that's quite a descriptive fitting descriptor for me.

Sam: 00:59:24

Yeah, absolutely. And so, I mean, what has it been like to reclaim your identity from child of God Pentecostal Christian? To which.

Hana: 00:59:38

A lot more freeing.

Sam: 00:59:39

Yeah.

Hana: 00:59:40

There was a lot of fear for a long time around what people would think.

Sam: 00:59:43

Yeah.

Hana: 00:59:44

But by embracing that, I think it helped me so much more.

Sam: 00:59:48

Yeah.

Hana: 00:59:49

It helped me to just be more authentic and more myself. And now I don't care. And if. If someone finds out that I'm a witch and doesn't want to hang out with me, that's on them.

Sam: 00:59:58

Yeah.

Hana: 00:59:58

Right. Like, old Hannah would have carved herself a whole new body to make someone like me.

Sam: 01:00:05

Yeah.

Hana: 01:00:05

Right. It was. You fit them. So now I just don't care.

Sam: 01:00:11

And so I'm going To flip the question that I asked earlier, but change the language a little bit, which is. So what is it like for you now to relate to the divine? What does that look like for you personally?

Hana: 01:00:23

I think it is far more unrestricted.

Sam: 01:00:30

Yeah.

Hana: 01:00:32

Previously there was rules and dogma, like, you have to do this now. I think just being alive is enough. And anything on top of that is lovely.

And a lot of it comes down to respect and kindness for other people, for animals, for the earth. And I think helping people crack out of the conditioning. And I have a big, strong. What's the word?

Passion around helping people break free of rapture doctrine ideology, because that is directly linked to what is happening with the genocide in Gaza.

So a lot of my spiritual expression is through teaching people because I think that will do the greatest good, you know, and it's less about, look how holy I am and look how God has blessed me, the prosperity culture aspect. And more it just like, look how kind and loving and happy I am. Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 01:01:41

So and so what is it?

Sam: 01:01:43

How do you not go from fundamental Christian to fundamental witch?

Hana: 01:01:48

Yeah, that's a good question. I think I see it more in initiatory covens.

So there are many different forms of witchcraft and I have kind of purposely kept away from anything initiatory, especially because as soon as I read into it, I'm like. But I don't agree with that. That, that, that or that. And I don't want to be held to that.

Sam: 01:02:06

And by that, do you mean initiation style covens?

Hana: 01:02:10

Yes. So things like Gardenerian, Wicca, which there's a lot of people who are Wiccan, doesn't vibe with me.

There's lots of divine feminine and divine masculine. And that language to me is. And I don't like it. Yeah, I've stayed away from that. But for some people, they like that, that's fine.

And there's traditional witchcraft, but a lot of that is either based quite Celtic or quite southern USA in Appalachian. And I'm not from either of those areas. And then I look at like our own indigenous culture here in Australia, and that's not mine either.

So I just have my own little flavor niche that I've carved out, I guess.

Sam: 01:02:53

Yeah.

Hana: 01:02:54

And if I do something that feels good, I keep doing it. And if it doesn' or if it feels hard or like a chore, then I just drop it because I don't need that in my life.

Sam: 01:03:03

And you can.

Hana: 01:03:04

Yes. I'm not like I'm in charge. I get to make the. So that is fun. That is. And it feels so much more spiritually enriching.

I am a professional astrologer as well, so I'm so much more cyclical in how I do things. And I think we are cyclical beings, like seasonally and astrologically and things like that.

So it just feels like things are so much more in tune and I'm masking, less knowing that sort of stuff as well. So it's not about pushing through.

I used to think every year after Christmas, when you meant to be quite like, let's go out, let's be social, let's have a barbecue, let's. And I was like, I can't think of anything worse. I need to decompress after all of the craziness.

Sam: 01:03:48

Yeah.

Hana: 01:03:49

And then I found out that's my 12th House Solar Transit, when I should just be resting, sleeping, and being by myself, myself. I was like, oh, well, now I give myself permission to just do that. And I always tell my husband, I'm like, this is not my time to shine.

This is my time to sleep.

Sam: 01:04:04

Oh, I love that. That's so good. Also, I just don't know anybody has energy at the end of the year to do anything. That's baffling to me.

But I like, I love the biggest thing that comes out of everything that you've just said is choice. Like, you just have the ability to choose you. Everything is rooted in agency and you get to pick something. Something up, you get to put it down.

And there is no inbuilt fear that if you do either of those options that it is okay or not okay and it's.

Hana: 01:04:39

Nothing is demonized.

Sam: 01:04:40

Yeah.

Hana: 01:04:41

I'm very also cautious.

So I, you know, I do a lot of educational content for people as well, and I mentor a lot of young, young people coming into witchcraft, especially with religious tr. And one thing I see is people often go straight into, like, I have to cleanse my home and my things all the time.

And that's like that almost like that purity culture coming through again. Like, it has to be cleansed and perfect, all of that. And, you know, any spirit could be a bad spirit or this.

And I did an episode with Michelle Bolanger on demons and negative entities because it is such a hot topic and how they're really not as common or as, you know, they're just not as common as people think they're not. We don't need to be doing all of these things all the time. That's just these rules we give ourselves.

Try not doing it and see if it feels Any different. And if it doesn't, why were you doing it? Right. Like, that's kind of the vibe.

And like, Michelle Bollinger reads in Latin all the old biblical texts, has studied comparative religions, like, is very knowledgeable on the mythological and historical aspects of negative entities throughout Abrahamic religions and others, and was the best person to talk to, to take away a lot of those fears that people have. And they've written a book called the Dictionary of Demons, which I've used to write my novel.

This is really great as a little reference book, and it is fascinating, but it is. She. Like, they come through as a. They say they're a demonographer, not a demonologist.

A demonologist is someone who believes in the Abrahamic version of a demon and works in that. In terms of, like, exorcisms, things like that.

Sam: 01:06:25

Yeah.

Hana: 01:06:25

A demonographer is more like a research person who just.

Sam: 01:06:29

Yeah.

Hana: 01:06:30

Yeah. So really, really intriguing to get that sort of aspect from it.

And there's so many demons in that book that you and I might have heard of in the church that were based on, like, a misspelling. Like, it's so funny to read through. And you're like, what.

Sam: 01:06:51

Now that you are, like, so far on the other side of that space, how do you look back on your time in church?

Hana: 01:07:00

There's a lot of compassion.

Sam: 01:07:01

Yeah.

Hana: 01:07:02

And even for people that are still in that I can see struggling, but they are not ready for me to come in and blow that open for them. That is not my job. I'm here if anyone needs me, but it is not my job. And I don't think we can force it before people are ready.

So there's a lot of compassion. There's a lot of understanding because I know what it feels like. And on social media, I take a bit of a different stance.

I will call out a lot of the harmful aspects, and if someone chooses to comment that is on them because they've chosen to engage with someone who is very well versed in where their belief comes from and very good at picking it apart or trolling them back. But I get a lot of, like, the most hate I get online because I do have quite a big following. The. The most hate I get are from Christians.

I get death threats from Christians. Like, it's insane, the stuff that people think they can write, who just points out that something might be inconsistent in the Bible.

Sam: 01:08:03

Yeah.

Sam: 01:08:03

As a queer person, when I've. I've said a lot of things publicly and the abusive messages, and abusive is the only way to describe them. They're just horrific.

Hana: 01:08:14

But like, of course it's going to be abusive because that's what God teaches us. Love a lot of time.

Sam: 01:08:20

Yeah, exactly. And you are. So you just.

Yeah, I mean, that goes back to, I guess, one of the earlier conversations that we had, which is that you are taught that harm is love and care and, you know, all of that sort of thing. So it's just very twisted and distorted.

Hana: 01:08:36

There's so many, you know, religion has infected so many areas and people have these views.

You know, I'm sure you've seen that there's a lot of people that are like, well, obviously God is and is pro life, which I don't even like that term, but anti abortion care, health care. And it's like, but dude, he killed all of the firstborn sons. Like, that's.

That's like a huge part of your doctrine and learning and belief system that he did that just on a whim for no reason. Don't think he cares. Also, there's like, abortions performed in the Bible in the Jewish synagogue by the priests, like, by the rabbi.

Like, yeah, that was a part of health care. And so it's. You point out these things and it's like, like, can't say it. Not. Not a thing. This is.

Now it's switched from just the actual belief in the Bible and what it's taught to what the church has taught me and what politically the church is aligned with.

Sam: 01:09:35

Yeah.

Hana: 01:09:36

Which I really dislike that sort of.

Sam: 01:09:40

Absolutely.

Hana: 01:09:41

I think April Ajoy, if you've come across her, she does a lot of work around that, like, Christian nationalist aspect which we are seeing coming to Australia. Like, there are pastors with MAGA hats on.

Sam: 01:09:54

Yeah, absolutely.

And if people actually want to know more about the Christian nationalism In Australia, Claire McIver is like gold in terms of being able to understand what that looks like. And so she's all over social. She has the podcast Unchurchable and. But she talks a lot about it on Substack.

And she's crazy super smart and has come out of a Dominionist cult herself. And so she is wild smart about how we see Christian nationalism in Australia and things.

Hana: 01:10:30

I've been surprised here in Queensland how prevalent it is.

Sam: 01:10:33

Yeah.

Hana: 01:10:34

And I have never seen so many people on the side of the street holding up a sign saying the end is nigh.

Sam: 01:10:39

Yeah.

Hana: 01:10:40

I have in. In Queensland, like, in randomized areas that you're like that. What do you do? Where are you? Where's your car? Like, how did you get here?

And, you know, ringing a bell. And shouting into a microphone.

And there was one time where we were driving past and I filmed on my phone, like to show that there's this person doing this. And my daughter said, why are you filming him? And I said, well, I was kind of just.

I talk a lot about how the mindset of people in the church and how they can use fear. He's talking about the end of the world is coming.

they've been saying that for: 2000

Sam: 01:11:25

Oh, bless.

Hana: 01:11:27

She goes, oh, I think they tricked my friend Olivia's parents. Oh, sweetheart, that's. And I didn't want to laugh, but I was like, not quite. But not all Christians will believe this.

And there's, there's like, like 45, 000 different ways to be a Christian. But, but yes, it can be good to be aware of how fear makes us do things.

Sam: 01:11:53

I just describe it as the cold rock of Christianity. It's like there's so many different flavors, there's so many different mix ins.

Hana: 01:11:59

So many. And they all.

Sam: 01:12:00

So many different combinations.

Hana: 01:12:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's another thing with witchcraft. I don't think I'm. I have all the answers. I don't think I'm the only right way to express myself.

It's just right for me.

Sam: 01:12:12

Yeah.

Hana: 01:12:12

Freeing.

Sam: 01:12:13

Absolutely. Okay. Before we get down another path and we end up recording a whole other episode, I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement.

And so what would you say to someone who is fresh in that deconstruction? The questions have just started. They got no idea what the is going on, but they are pulling on the thread and they're terrified.

Hana: 01:12:38

I think sometimes we have to. In my experience, my experience is not the only way to do it, but we instinctively shy away from the things that we're scared of.

Sam: 01:12:49

Yeah.

Hana: 01:12:50

Find the thing that is really scary for you. For me it was, you know, the rapture. That belief held strong for a long time because I thought, what if I get it wrong?

What if that's actually happening? And instead of just ignoring it and pushing it down and focusing on all the other things that we're like, like the low hanging fruits to deconstruct.

I dove straight into that.

Sam: 01:13:11

Yeah.

Hana: 01:13:12

Where did it come from? Why is it here? I took lectures, I read books. Like, I jumped deep. And then once I sort of.

Once it clicked as to how that all came about, how recent it is that Fear started to evaporate and then you start to go, oh, what else? What else have I been afraid of? So shying away from the things that are scary sometimes can make it take a lot longer.

Sam: 01:13:39

Yeah.

Hana: 01:13:39

Diving into the fear, as long as you're not going to re traumatize yourself.

So you've got to be, you know, careful and slow, but sometimes just allowing yourself to look at facts, look at where the origins of something are, look at what other denominations believe about that same thing, and that can start to give you a few threads and rabbit holes to dive down. Yeah, I love that.

Sam: 01:14:06

Widen the scope.

Sam: 01:14:07

Absolutely.

Hana: 01:14:08

Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

Sam: 01:14:10

Thank you so much for joining me.

Sam: 01:14:12

I've loved this. It's been so fun.

Hana: 01:14:15

It's probably been a very different episode.

Sam: 01:14:17

Oh, no, I love it. And that's why I love the podcast, is because I have everything from hardcore atheists just to, you know, progressive Christians still. Right.

Like, I have everything in between. And some who have embraced different forms of spirituality, some who cringe at the word spirituality.

And so I love just, you know, it will resonate with someone.

And that's the point, is that someone feels less alone, someone feels more seen, and someone feels like, oh, maybe I'm not too far gone and I actually can recover from this and move into a new space that's more of mine. So I love it. Thank you so much for joining me.

Hana: 01:15:01

Thank you so much for having me.

Sam: 01:15:05

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.