Episode 84
The One Who Survived IBLP
In this episode, Rachel shares her story of being immersed into the IBLP (Institute in Basic Life Principles), where the teachings of Bill Gothard shaped her understanding of faith, identity, and community in deeply controlling ways. She reflects on how the subtle mechanisms of spiritual abuse left lasting impacts on her ability to trust, belong, and feel secure in herself, even after leaving. As Rachel traces her gradual disentanglement from the IBLP framework, she sheds light on the resilience required to unlearn harmful teachings and rebuild a life outside of rigid religious control. Her honesty offers listeners both insight into the lingering effects of spiritual abuse and hope in the possibility of healing, as she speaks to the ongoing process of reclaiming identity, truth, and freedom on her own terms.
Who Is Rachel?
Rachel Lees is an award-winning New Zealand writer in Tauranga and the author of “Sacred Grooming”. The online memoir details her experience of being hand selected at 20 and groomed over years by American fundamentalist cult leader Bill Gothard of the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). As one of the whistle-blowers which led to the downfall of the Christo-fascist organisation and resignation of the leader, and then filing a lawsuit against Gothard in 2015, Rachel withstood many personal attacks against her. She is passionate about speak more on predatory grooming and the healing that comes from the pursuit of justice.
Connect With Us
- You can find out more about Sam on her website – www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
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- Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective
Transcript
FOREIGN.
Speaker B:I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people.
Speaker B:I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
Speaker B:I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.
Speaker B:I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country.
Speaker B:This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Speaker B:Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.
Speaker B:FOREIGN I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives.
Speaker B:Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.
Speaker B:Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.
Speaker B:This is beyond the surface.
Speaker B:Welcome, Rachel.
Speaker B:Thanks for joining me.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker A:It's really great to be here.
Speaker B:I like to start with some context for people who may not know you by your picture and your name and things like that that they've seen for the podcast.
Speaker B:Art, where in the world are you?
Speaker A:At the moment, I am in Taronga, New Zealand.
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker A:Very cold.
Speaker A:Yeah, but it's very cold.
Speaker B:Yes, I can relate.
Speaker B:I just finished recording with someone who was in Canada and it was very warm over there and it's just, it's nice to talk to somebody who is equally freezing on the other end of this recording.
Speaker B:So it is nice.
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker B:Well, I love to start these episodes with a really broad, vague, open ended question just to see where people like to start.
Speaker B:And, and so that is, where does your story start?
Speaker A:Well, I think a lot of people don't know about me that I did not grow up in Bill Gothard's IBLP ATI homeschooling program.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I did grow up in the Evangelical church.
Speaker A:So I was, I was christened into the Anglican Church and then my parents left them when I was about five years old and went into the Evangelical church.
Speaker A:So that's pretty much probably where it starts.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What, what do you remember about that sort of flavor of Christianity that you were raised in?
Speaker B:Did you love it?
Speaker B:Were you drawn to it?
Speaker B:Was it just something that your family did?
Speaker A:It was full immersion.
Speaker A:And yeah, I grew up in a little town in the south island of New Zealand that was very.
Speaker A:The church that I belong to was our community.
Speaker A:Like, we went to school together, our parents were friends, they.
Speaker A:We went on holidays with our teachers.
Speaker A:You know, it was just really full immersion into the church.
Speaker A:So it was my life.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What did, what did life look like in that space?
Speaker B:Was it, you know, a stereotypical sort of, you know, church on Sundays, Bible studies, youth groups, like that sort of thing?
Speaker B:Or was it much more controlling or immersive than, than that?
Speaker A:I always, I've always said that I had a really happy childhood because I didn't know anything different, but I did have a really happy childhood and it was just.
Speaker A:Yes, it was the whole church on Sunday.
Speaker A:And then when I got to a certain age, the local church began a Christian school associated with the church.
Speaker A:Church.
Speaker A:So that was my school and my parents were leaders in the church as well.
Speaker A:So we often had meetings at our home as well.
Speaker A:And the church was very active in Pentecostal evangelical churches throughout New Zealand.
Speaker A:So we saw a lot of, sometimes even international speakers come to our church or very well known ministers or pastors from New Zealand, from the evangelical world.
Speaker A:So often we'd have them stay in our home as well.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I mean, I feel like that was always.
Speaker B:I also, I didn't grow up in the church that I landed in, but I know from other families it was always like a very influential thing to be able to be the family that hosted the speakers and things like that.
Speaker B:So did that, did you feel like that or was it just a very normal part of what you were experiencing or did it feel like your family had some weight in this space?
Speaker A:It, it felt very normal.
Speaker A:My parents are very social, very outgoing at the time, so, yeah, it felt nor.
Speaker A:And then we moved away from that town to Auckland, which is a larger city, and.
Speaker A:And the same thing just continued there, really.
Speaker A:It was just.
Speaker A:And my dad became a pastor and.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's just, it was my, it was my world.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you feel like it was, it was just like the faith of your family or did it feel like it was yours?
Speaker B:Like, who was God to you during this period of time as you were growing up?
Speaker A:So I'm, I, I met God when I was five in my best friend's neighbor's house at an after school.
Speaker A:And after school, I don't even know what it was called.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So I was very young, very innocent.
Speaker A:And, and very trusting of, of God and Jesus and.
Speaker A:And so I've always felt like I've had a relationship, a spiritual relationship my whole life.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it wasn't my family's, it was my own.
Speaker A:It was a very personal.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Intimate thing for me.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And was that.
Speaker B:Did that shift or change as you sort of went through into like high school?
Speaker B:High school, I feel like, is like a, is a moment for a lot of people because you start to sort of fall into that identity forming place.
Speaker B:You start to have relationships.
Speaker B:It's where we get purity culture thrown at us, all of that sort of thing.
Speaker B:What was that like?
Speaker A:No, high school was not my moment.
Speaker A:Oh no.
Speaker A:I had quite a normal high school.
Speaker A:I had a boyfriend.
Speaker A:I had very good friends.
Speaker A:They were mostly friends that I had within the church youth group.
Speaker A:You know, they were in that social group.
Speaker A:So they were in my social group at school as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:A purity culture.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:There was that teaching that came right through the evangelical church too.
Speaker A:So yeah, I did, I did have that, but it wasn't predominant in my life at that time.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I was still allowed to have a boyfriend.
Speaker A:I was still allowed to go out to movies and things like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, how do you look back on that?
Speaker B:Because that's actually, it's pretty rare in the stories that I hear a lot of the time because, you know, know that purity culture, very shame based messaging, women are responsible for men's behavior.
Speaker B:And that sort of thing is a very common thing in a lot of those, you know, evangelical spaces.
Speaker B:Do you look back on the fact that that wasn't a super prominent part?
Speaker B:Like, how do you look back on that?
Speaker A:It was quite, it was still quite a controlled thing though.
Speaker A:Like I often say to my.
Speaker A:Because my childhood friends are still very good friends of mine and they, they do tell me that my parents were quite strict.
Speaker A:So I.
Speaker A:But to me it felt normal.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:To me it was just normal.
Speaker A:And yes, there were things I wasn't allowed to do.
Speaker A:Like my one biggest, one of my biggest regrets in life is that I was not allowed to go to the Dire Straits concert when I was 16.
Speaker A:All my friends were going and I wasn't allowed to go.
Speaker A:So yeah, there were little things like that.
Speaker A:But it wasn't actually until later when we got immersed into Bill Gothard's program in iblp that looking back on it, you realize that there were restrictions, but I was still, I still had some, some freedoms.
Speaker A:But that the indoctrination of Things like purity.
Speaker A:Culture is still there.
Speaker A:It's still very much a part of how you function as a person and how you view the world.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It's so often baked into the water so much that sometimes you don't realize that it's there in the first place as well.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So how.
Speaker B:How did we land in iblp?
Speaker B:And how did.
Speaker B:Like, how did this eventuate?
Speaker B:How old were you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I. I decided to go to Australia with youth, with the mission, when I was 17.
Speaker B:Good old YWAM.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, good old Ywam.
Speaker B:We say good old Ywam.
Speaker B:She's not all that good.
Speaker A:I had a great time.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was just, you know, I. I had.
Speaker A:I had been part of a lot of evangelical para groups, you know, missions groups, and I just wanted to.
Speaker A:I didn't know what to do with my life after I left school.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So went to Australia with Ywam, and it was while I was over there that my parents met.
Speaker A:Well, they.
Speaker A:They went along to Bill Gothard's basic seminar that was coming.
Speaker A:Well, he had brought it over to Auckland and New Zealand.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And they rang me and said, oh, you've got to go.
Speaker A:We love this.
Speaker A:You've got to go to the next one when it comes out, you'll just, you know, it's so good.
Speaker A:And I remember going to my American friend at the moment, at the time, Danielle, and ctu, she was with me in Australia and said, have you ever heard of this guy?
Speaker A:My parents are really into him.
Speaker A:And she.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And she's like, oh, yeah, I think we've got some of the stuff at church.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:Like, his.
Speaker A:His materials, even at that point, at that early stage, were in mainstream Christianity.
Speaker A:We're heading in that direction anyway.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I did my thing in Ywam, came back home, and it just.
Speaker A:And then I worked for a bit, and then his seminar people must have bought a seminar out again.
Speaker A:And so we went along to that basic seminar.
Speaker A:I did it for the whole week.
Speaker A:I don't remember much about it, except at the end, my.
Speaker A:My sister really wanted to go to his headquarters, so my parents organized an interview with Bill, and I was just tagging along, you know, like, I was just on the end of the road.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not really interested.
Speaker A:Ready to get back to my life.
Speaker A:I had a great job that I was really enjoying.
Speaker A:I'd had a few offers for apprenticeships, and I was just in a really good place.
Speaker A:And so we met him that night, and he spent the whole meeting focused on me pretty much, like, asking me questions about my life and where I worked.
Speaker A:And at the time, I was working for the Christian radio station, Radio Rima.
Speaker A:And as soon as I said that, his reaction was just like, oh, we have to get you out of that place.
Speaker A:You can't work there.
Speaker A:That's not a good place for a Christian girl to be working.
Speaker A:I was taken about two.
Speaker A:It's like, what?
Speaker A:How can you say that?
Speaker A:Just, like, what?
Speaker A:Yeah, and it was the rock music.
Speaker B:I mean, not to mention that this, like, in this situation, this guy is just, like this random person who thinks that he has the right to tell you where you can and can't.
Speaker B:Of course, like, aside from anything else, like, the absolute, like, sense of entitlement that comes just in that tiny moment is.
Speaker B:Is crazy.
Speaker B:I do want to, like, cut for a moment and go for people.
Speaker B:I mean, I think most people know the Duggars, right?
Speaker B:Like, everybody thinks of the Duggars when we think of iblp.
Speaker B:But for people who maybe don't know about IBLP and Bill Gothard, what was it that your parents were responding to?
Speaker B:What was it that they were saying so great about what he was teaching?
Speaker A:I think at the time, my sister really wanted to homeschool.
Speaker A:Like, I had finished my schooling, but she was still in school.
Speaker A:And they.
Speaker A:And Bill had a large group of young people with him.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they.
Speaker A:And they were beautiful.
Speaker A:Just beautiful young people who.
Speaker A:Who looked like they had their lives together, you know, I think that really appealed to them.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it certainly appealed to my sister.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So how did you feel in that moment when you were first meeting him before you ever.
Speaker B:Like, you really knew a whole heap about this guy.
Speaker B:How did you feel about being around him?
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I don't really remember how I felt at the time.
Speaker A:Like, he was just, you know, I kind of was just ready to go home.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, you know, I've been right.
Speaker A:I'm a good, good Christian New Zealand girl.
Speaker A:Like, I've been raised to be polite.
Speaker A:So he's asking me all these questions, and I'm giving him the answers.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then he offered me.
Speaker A:Then he said he wanted me to go to the USA with him.
Speaker A:I think he was going to Australia and then to the usa, back to headquarters in Chicago, and he asked if I could go with him.
Speaker A:Like, he wanted me to drop everything right then and there, and he would take me, take me with him to Australia and then on to the usa.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And my dad's like, hey, hang on.
Speaker A:A second.
Speaker A:She's got a job, she can't just up and leave.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then he's like, and what about her sister who actually is the one that wants to go?
Speaker B:So what did you think in that moment?
Speaker A:Well, I was kind of keen to go to the US because I had just come back from there.
Speaker A:I had done some.
Speaker A:I'd been to the Ywam University in Hawaii and I had been offered a, an apprenticeship or two jobs in New Zealand here actually.
Speaker A:And I was trying to decide which one I was going to take because they were both great, they were both great jobs.
Speaker A:So I, I kind of thought, oh well, you know, I could take three months off over the summer, over our summer, go and have this time in the US and then come back and start my new job, whatever I decide to do.
Speaker A:And he was offering to pay for it, so.
Speaker B:Right, okay.
Speaker B:So it was like going like great, free three month paid holiday in the.
Speaker A:U.S. why wouldn't you right it.
Speaker B:I mean it.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I mean, I think it looks appealing.
Speaker B:It may not look appealing right now that with the state of the U.S. but I think at the time it would have felt appealing to almost anybody.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Somebody offer something that seemed so extravagant.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Was there any like, was there any discomfort in that or did it just feel like, like, was there any weirdness?
Speaker B:Like, why is this guy offering it to me?
Speaker A:It felt like a whirlwind.
Speaker A:That's what it felt like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like I remember we got out of there and back to the car and we were kind of like, what in the world just happened?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But you know, I think Bill has this, he has incredible powers of persuasion and he has this way of kind of presenting an idea and then persuading you to go along with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, I think any, any leader in that type of position has those tactics and we know and we see them play out in a whole host of different places.
Speaker B:You know, cults, high control religion, one on one intimate relationships where there is that excessive over the top affection and love bombing and like giving and incessant questioning and interest and all of those sorts of things to make the other person like equally this person has taken interest in me, but also to just like make your head spin that you can't really pay attention to any of the.
Speaker B:This is weird.
Speaker B:Why is this happening?
Speaker A:Yeah, and I think he, he's put up on a pedestal too.
Speaker A:You know, like he's.
Speaker A:Here's this man who's just had thousands of people come and listen to him speak and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:He's giving you attention.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you give him the authority that he, you know, supposedly deserts in that moment everybody else has, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:He's on that pedestal.
Speaker B:So you think that he deserves that authority in the moment.
Speaker A:Right, Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How long was it between that conversation and when you went.
Speaker A:Two weeks.
Speaker B:Wow, that is so quick.
Speaker B:Did that two weeks feel equally like just a constant whirlwind from that moment?
Speaker A:Yeah, because I had to give notice at my work and I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, it was.
Speaker A:It was another.
Speaker A:It was just very rushed.
Speaker A:Very kind of just mind blowing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And were you.
Speaker B:Were you still having contact with Bill and that and like his team in that window of time, or was it.
Speaker A:Not that I.
Speaker A:Not that I recall.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How did you feel when you, like in that moment where you are about to go for this three month trip to the US how did you feel?
Speaker A:I mean, my sister and I were excited about it.
Speaker A:I was excited to go back to the US I had enjoyed my time there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it was a different part of America as well, so.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And we were going to be having a white Christmas or hopefully having a white Christmas.
Speaker A:We never had that before.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:So, yeah, there was a lot to look forward to.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's the goal of anybody who is in our part of the world.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I don't like Christmas one year.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:I still feel like it's a little bit of a goal, honestly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what happened when you got there?
Speaker A:So when we got there, he was still away.
Speaker A:He was.
Speaker A:I don't know where he was, but we just kind of got ourselves settled into a house and we were in a house with other girls.
Speaker A:So the way headquarters in Chicago was set up was that he had streets of houses.
Speaker A:Some were for the girls and some were for the guys.
Speaker A:And then there were staff houses and guest houses.
Speaker A:It's a little empire right there in Oakbrook, Illinois.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, just beautiful grounds and beautiful buildings and right in the middle of the city.
Speaker A:It's interesting that Oakbrook is also the place where the McDonald's takeaways headquarters is.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker B:What a random place.
Speaker A:Oh, I mean, very, very affluent.
Speaker B:When you sort of saw these like rows, like you just said, like a little like empire, like, did you think that was normal?
Speaker A:Just took.
Speaker A:Yeah, I just took it for granted.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, you know, we're just young, really out of our childhood and you just.
Speaker A:You trust these people.
Speaker A:You trust that your parents have made the right decision, first of all.
Speaker A:And even joining this thing and then you Trust these, these leaders and these people that are.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:They've got this hotline to God.
Speaker B:And, and up until that point, had you ever, like.
Speaker B:And I probably know the answer to this because it's usually the answer, but had you ever seen or had anybody ever said anything about the fact that actually there can be real harm in faith spaces?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So like you have like this clouded rose colored vision.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Of, you know, this is a godly man.
Speaker B:And so, you know, of course it's okay.
Speaker B:You know, we make sense of it.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because of that.
Speaker A:I think too, because I had a personal relationship with Bill or ended up having a personal relationship with him.
Speaker A:Anybody that spoke against him, I would immediately defend him.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like my loyalty was, you know, just so strong, so strongly with him that.
Speaker A:And, and any kind of criticism that came his way, it's just like you, he could explain it away, I could explain it away.
Speaker A:You know, he could get, oh, he's not really like that.
Speaker A:Or oh, they don't understand what's behind this.
Speaker A:Like, I, I had a friend in Australia.
Speaker A:Well, she was a Canadian friend, but she was living in Australia at the time.
Speaker A:She found me a few months into my stay, really worried about me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and worried about this codependent relationship that I was, I had in.
Speaker A:And it's just, I remember saying to you, oh, no, he's not like that.
Speaker A:It's not like that at all.
Speaker A:You don't have anything to worry about.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so what did life look like while you were over there?
Speaker B:Like, when did it go from this is really lovely and this is really great to something a little bit.
Speaker C:Like.
Speaker A:I did, like I was in a position of power almost immediately.
Speaker A:As soon as he came back.
Speaker A:I was his secret, his correspondent secretary.
Speaker A:So I, I worked in the same space as him.
Speaker A:We worked very, very long hours.
Speaker A:Often we'd be up like 3, 4 o' clock in the morning.
Speaker C:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:And work right through till 11, 12 o' clock at night with maybe a lunch break halfway through and some dinner.
Speaker A:But we'd travel.
Speaker A:He had a sort of a custom made van that we did a lot of traveling in.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And it was, it was quite glamorous.
Speaker A:It was very glamorous, actually.
Speaker A:We got to stay in really expensive hotels.
Speaker A:Like, I remember the first time I went to Dallas, Texas.
Speaker A:It's just like, oh my God, I love it here.
Speaker A:It's like fulfilled every expectation I ever had of what Dallas, Texas would look like.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I had everything I could have possibly need yeah.
Speaker B:So, I mean, what was that relationship with him, like?
Speaker B:Because it sounds, you know, like you had a friend who referred to it as codependent.
Speaker B:And so, like, who did you become in that space, like.
Speaker B:Or who did he turn you into, essentially?
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker A:Yeah, So I.
Speaker A:So I went there very.
Speaker A:I was very outgoing.
Speaker A:I had a wide circle of friends.
Speaker A:I even had quite a bit of life experience, you know, traveling overseas.
Speaker A:And by the time, like, I can even see it in photos of myself, you know, from when I first got there and in photos of me when I left, just completely shut down.
Speaker A:Like, I just.
Speaker A:My world just kind of shrunk.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I. I put it down, purely down now, to the isolation that I had in that position.
Speaker A:And also his predict.
Speaker A:His predatory grooming was such that it kind of bonded me to him only like, he.
Speaker A:He was the.
Speaker A:He was my best friend, you know, if I had any problems, he was the one I went to in the end.
Speaker A:That's how it works.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I assume you also, like, he also positioned himself as not just the person to go to, but the person who also had all of the answers.
Speaker A:Yes, absolutely.
Speaker A:Like, I remember even saying to him at one point that I was like.
Speaker A:I was like Mary in the Bible, just wanting to sit at the feet of Jesus and learn.
Speaker B:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, he had.
Speaker A:He had answers for everything.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so what do you, like, did it feel?
Speaker B:And this is a weird question because I think anybody who has not experienced, like, any sort of, like, spiritual abuse doesn't necessarily understand how insidious it is, and you don't always realize it until afterwards.
Speaker B:But were you aware that any of this felt not okay whilst you were in it?
Speaker A:Yes, there were times that.
Speaker A:Yeah, I. I did not feel comfortable.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, there were definitely times like that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What was it like to try and reason your way out of that?
Speaker B:Because I imagine it, you know, it's not a safe space to be able to even acknowledge, sit, explore those thoughts.
Speaker B:Where we go, hey, this doesn't feel right.
Speaker B:This doesn't seem okay.
Speaker B:And so what was it like to have to try and either suppress or reason or make sense of that?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So there was a lot of overthinking.
Speaker A:I. I'm a big overthinker.
Speaker A:And I. I think the one thing that I really persuaded myself was that this was a man of God.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And anything that I felt uncomfortable with or didn't like for me to question that would be to go against God.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because here is someone that God has Put in a position of power.
Speaker A:And look at all these lives he's changing.
Speaker A:Look at all these people he's influencing.
Speaker A:He has.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So that was, that was kind of where my mind went and.
Speaker A:Because I'd been raised in the Evangelical church and I'd even been a missionary, like my parents have been missionaries since I was about 10, 11 years old.
Speaker A:The goal is not yourself.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's not your safety and, and it's not.
Speaker A:It's not your.
Speaker A:Your desires.
Speaker A:It's the desires of God.
Speaker A:It's what.
Speaker A:What is best for God, what is best for the ministry, what is best for reaching lost souls.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so that's where your loyalty lies.
Speaker A:That's where your dedication lies, your devotion.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so did you feel like whilst.
Speaker B:Because obviously you're working for him, but you didn't grow up in this space.
Speaker B:You didn't.
Speaker B:You weren't taught the IBLP teachings ongoing.
Speaker B:And so did you feel like you adopted those teachings and being in that space, or was it that you still held the teachings that you grew up with, but you just, you worked and were groomed by Bill Gothard, So I.
Speaker A:Still held on to a lot of the teachings that I, I did grow up with, but it was, I think being in that environment and being constantly surrounded by that, it's a very gradual kind of.
Speaker A:You just get immersed into.
Speaker A:It just becomes, you know, like little things like the uniform, the navy and white.
Speaker A:You know, the skirt had to be so long and the top had to be, you know, modest.
Speaker A:And so little things like, it's kind of irrationalized, like, oh, well, that's just the standard.
Speaker A:That's just what he expects us to do for.
Speaker A:In the office.
Speaker A:So I can do that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I remember early on in my stay there, I gave a book to one of my flat, my roommates, and it was a fictionalized book on Ruth in the Bible.
Speaker A:And that was a big no, no.
Speaker A:Like, I could tell she really didn't like.
Speaker A:She did not like that book.
Speaker B:What was it about the book that wasn't.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:One of those.
Speaker A:Well, it's fictionalized and it probably had.
Speaker A:Probably had romance.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, to be fair.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:The story of Ruth and Boaz would have been turned into a romance book very easily, I suspect.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So, I mean.
Speaker B:Yeah, that shows, I guess, like, the literalism that is.
Speaker A:Is in that space and just how gradual it was.
Speaker A:I mean, I, I get.
Speaker A:I give you this book soon after I arrived.
Speaker A:Oh, hey, this is a Great book.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I, you know, you just, I just knew immediately that it wasn't the right thing to have done.
Speaker A:So you adjust, don't you?
Speaker A:You just adjust the way you.
Speaker A:So it was little things like that over that period of time gradually wear you down, change the way you think.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's that that adjustment is.
Speaker B:Did it feel like a.
Speaker B:Just a slow censorship and erasure of like your sense of self so that you could just conform to whatever the standards were that were set for you now?
Speaker A:Well, looking back on it now, certainly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:At the time, I didn't think of it like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so throughout all of this, because, like, you know, at the beginning of the episode, I asked you sort of like what your relationship with God was like and who God was for you.
Speaker B:How did that shift now that you were in this space?
Speaker B:Like, what was it like whilst you were in this space and did it change?
Speaker A:So you're asking how my faith changed over.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So that took a long time and I was very angry with God for many, many years.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And walked away from my faith at one point.
Speaker A:I just, I just had to hang on to what, what I had to get back to that point of like, what do I believe in?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What out of everything I've grown up with and everything I've been taught.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:If I took it all away, what.
Speaker A:What am I left with?
Speaker A:So I had to just strip it all right back.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker A:And start over.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I just went back to that.
Speaker A:You know, I still had a relationship with Jesus.
Speaker A:That's always been my anchor in life.
Speaker A:You like?
Speaker A:So that's where I started.
Speaker B:Do you feel like while you were working with Bill that he became like God while you were there?
Speaker A:He was certainly treated that way.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I. I don't know that I could say that I saw him as God, but I certainly saw him as somebody special to God.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But he.
Speaker A:But definitely treated that way by the star.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because I get, you know, people who, I mean, either get put on a pedestal or put themselves on that pedestal usually start to become the godlike figure or at least have like a direct hotline to God and so they might as well be.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How did your view of him shift and change?
Speaker B:And it sounds like what started as a three month stint in the US did not end that way.
Speaker A:No, it didn't.
Speaker A:It ended up being there a year.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I have a very dramatic story on how I ended up coming home.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, like, what did Leaving look like.
Speaker B:And because you are so immersed in that space, even just like, the idea of leaving would have just been, you know, a whole thing in itself, I imagine.
Speaker A:I would never.
Speaker A:I would never have left, never, unless this thing intervened in my life.
Speaker A:It was out of my control, and it was out of Bill's control.
Speaker A:Otherwise I'd still be there, probably.
Speaker A:It was just.
Speaker A:I was so loyal to him.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know, he was just.
Speaker A:My world ruined.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So what intervened?
Speaker A:The US Government.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah, that helps.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I was like, what is this powerful thing that intervened?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:Bill Gothard.
Speaker A:Bill Gothard is not more powerful than the US Government.
Speaker A:Let me just say that right here.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh.
Speaker B:Although I'm sure he thought he was, that's for sure.
Speaker B:Okay, so how did the US Government intervene?
Speaker A:So I had.
Speaker A:Had an extension on my visa, so I was there legally.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then Bill gets invited to go to Taiwan for a couple of weeks of ministry, and he wanted me to go with him.
Speaker A:And so I'm like, okay, yep, that's fine.
Speaker A:We can go.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I hand my passport over to the staff to take care of all my visas and everything.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they didn't get this one little thing that I was supposed to get in my passport, which was the.
Speaker A:At the time, the re.
Speaker A:Entry permit.
Speaker A:It was this tiny little piece of paper that I was supposed to get because I had a. I had a multiple indefinite visa to come and go as I pleased, but you just.
Speaker A:You had to get this little thing.
Speaker A:So coming back from Taiwan didn't have the little piece of paper.
Speaker A:And I got called aside for questioning.
Speaker A:About eight hours.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker A:Interrogation.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was intense.
Speaker A:I never want to go through that again.
Speaker A:And they were going to send me back to New Zealand that night, but Bill intervened.
Speaker A:He had a friend who was a senator in Hawaii, because we came back through the way and they got the.
Speaker A:Got it changed to have a hearing in Chicago.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And that's a whole other story in itself.
Speaker A:But we ended up.
Speaker A:I stayed on for a little bit longer while we waited for the hearing, but I ended up coming back to New Zealand before that happened, so.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:That was how.
Speaker A:That was how I got out of there.
Speaker B:Good old technicality.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, it.
Speaker B:Like a technicality of.
Speaker B:Of like.
Speaker B:I mean, that technicality is, like, you know, deeply horrific and traumatizing, I imagine.
Speaker B:But, like, for it to be something super tiny and simple that had this massive effect and impact on what happened for the, like, the next trajectory of.
Speaker B:Of your life and your world.
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker B:It'S crazy to think that something so small can have such a big impact in that moment.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I just, I. I was angry about it for a very long time.
Speaker A:I was angry with God about it for a very long time.
Speaker A:So I wasn't.
Speaker A:I wasn't banned from going back to the US but it makes it very difficult for me to get back in there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But now I. I see it as.
Speaker A:It was a rescue.
Speaker A:If it hadn't been for that, I don't know where I would be.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, the anger at God was that.
Speaker B:Because it felt like you felt like you were being kept from going back into that space and doing what you thought you were supposed to be doing.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I had a pretty charmed life up until then.
Speaker A:Like, you know, like, oh, God, I've done all this stuff for you and you do this to me kind of thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I imagine there would have been a lot of confusion there, like, why, like, why would this happen?
Speaker B:I think a lot of the time, you know, when you are in that space, you think that those, you know, divine punishments, so to speak, go to people who are not, you know, living like, holy and.
Speaker B:And doing the things for the Lord, that.
Speaker B:That's where all of that lies.
Speaker B:But when that happens to you and you were doing the thing that you thought you were supposed to be doing, I imagine there's so much confusion there as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Plus, I just, I. I remember blaming myself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, oh, God's got rid of me.
Speaker A:God has got me out of this ministry because I've gotten too close to Bill Gothard and.
Speaker A:And God doesn't like it.
Speaker A:So, you know, it wasn't anyone else's fault.
Speaker A:I'm putting that blame back onto myself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So being back in New Zealand, how did that change the connection that you had with Bill?
Speaker A:It didn't really change the connection.
Speaker A:For quite a few years, he maintained regular contact with me.
Speaker A:It was weak contact.
Speaker A:Quite a while.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I. I worked with the organization here in New Zealand, and then my family were appointed as directors of the.
Speaker A:Of IBLP here in New Zealand, as well as the homeschooling program.
Speaker A:So I was, you know, I was still very much part of everything that happened, and Bill was still keeping in contact with me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And stringing me along, too.
Speaker A:Like, kept saying, oh, you.
Speaker A:When you.
Speaker A:When you come back to headquarters.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Getting me to do things like get my driver's license.
Speaker A:So when I come back to headquarters, I can drive that kind of thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:He strung me along for quite A few years.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Still trying to maintain that sense of control, like holding onto the leash, so to speak.
Speaker B:Like you can't, you can't get too far away.
Speaker B:Like I've got to keep pulling you in to make sure that like, you're still here and still under what I want, what I want you to do.
Speaker B:That control.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I wrote to him regularly as well.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:When.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did it.
Speaker B:You saw him not being in that daily day to day, like in his presence kind of contact.
Speaker A:No, it didn't really change the way I saw him at all until a few years in.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:He had, he had been talking about me going back to headquarters.
Speaker A:But then his father requested a period of separation for us.
Speaker A:Two years.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And his father passed away during that time and Bill had forgotten about it.
Speaker A:And that was the first kind of.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That was the first moment that things started to, like, make me think about this relationship and what had been going on.
Speaker A:But it still took a long time for me to kind of.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Understand what had been happening.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I guess the reason that I asked the question about whether not being in that day to day contact with him shifted is because I think a lot of people have this perception that if you aren't, if you aren't in the same space or you've been removed or you've left that space, that it just, it makes it easier to, to deal with the connection or what was happening or anything like that.
Speaker B:But it's so deeply embedded in you that it takes so much more to unlearn and unravel what all of that was.
Speaker B:And so in that moment where you're like thinking, oh, like this is maybe not what I thought it was, what started to pull on that thread, like, what was that like for you?
Speaker A:I think for me it was a feeling of, of betrayal almost like.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But it was still very subtle at the time.
Speaker A:Like I was still so loyal to him and he was still such a big part of my life.
Speaker A:Like he, he was pulling the strings all the way from the other side of the world in my life.
Speaker A:And it's something I, I find very difficult to deal with now.
Speaker A:Like, it's.
Speaker A:It's probably one of the hardest things for me to come to terms with is.
Speaker A:Is just how controlling he was.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Even after I was back in, in a different country.
Speaker B:I mean, like, it is.
Speaker B:And I mean that's like the insidious and like, you know, we have that imagery of like getting claws in and things like that, but it just becomes like an enmeshed part of, of who you are when there is that level of control and over an entire person.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's not just like it wasn't just the control of what you did or, you know, your job or what you believed, but it was, was, it sounds like it was control of your whole identity, your whole sense of self.
Speaker A:Yeah, it definitely was.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:As I say, I was a shadow of that, of that girl that I was when I first went over there.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What, what was it like to get to the point where you could start using language like predatory and grooming and controlling?
Speaker B:Because that's not usually a quick process, right?
Speaker A:No, it certainly wasn't quick.
Speaker A:And I always felt too like I, I carried the secret all these years to protect him.
Speaker A:So it's like I knew that what had happened was wrong and wasn't.
Speaker A:You know, it was.
Speaker A:Well, I, I knew that what he had done to me was damaging.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you carry that with you and it.
Speaker A:So to, to acknowledge that was.
Speaker A:It took a year of therapy for me to, to even just get to the point of acknowledging.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like I remember that my first session, my therapist and she's like, you don't think he's done anything wrong, do you?
Speaker A:I'm really struggling with this.
Speaker A:I really struggling.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I mean like, why would you, why would you think that he had done anything wrong up until that point?
Speaker B:Because he was the one who had all of the answers.
Speaker B:It's that self fulfilling prophecy which is that you don't, you can't question him.
Speaker B:He's got all of the answers, answers to the questions that you do have.
Speaker B:And so he is never going to, not, he's never going to be the problem in that scenario.
Speaker B:It's not like he's ever going to give you the answer that suggests that he is doing something wrong in any way and that his way is always the right way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Plus, plus because you trust this person so much that when it finally dawns on you kind of, it shatters your trust in yourself as well.
Speaker A:And I think that was also one of the hard things for me is to rebuild that trust that I have in myself and that trust to listen to myself.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because that, that's been completely demolished.
Speaker A:Just all your identity, all your loyalty is wrapped up in, in, in this person.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Was that a moment for you where it dawned on you and you were like, oh, right, that's what that's always been or did you feel like that?
Speaker B:Because I've heard both sides of the coin, right.
Speaker B:I've heard for, from some people it was like a, it was like a lightning bolt moment and it was like everything just like turned on.
Speaker B:And for other people it was a really, a really long slow fade to get to that point.
Speaker A:It's been a long, a long slow road for me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What has, had, what has having that language though, of what actually happened, what he was actually doing.
Speaker B:How helpful has that been for you understanding all of that time?
Speaker A:It's, I think that has been, that's been one of the most important things, I think.
Speaker A:And that came from people I went to when, when the, you know, when I first went and read Recovering Grace.
Speaker A:I know this is in my story, it's out there already.
Speaker A:But when I first read that website with those story of my other girl on the.
Speaker A:Whose story was very similar to mine and it was like reading my own history and I, I just, like, I was, I was stunned, just completely shocked.
Speaker A:And I, I remember I called my husband and I don't even remember what I said to him, but he, he said I was just in this kind of confused, kind of shocked state.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And, and then you reach out to people, you know, like I reached out to my sister in law, like, what do I do?
Speaker A:What do I do about this?
Speaker A:I just have no idea what to do with this.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And she told me, you're gonna, you need some help.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You can't do this by yourself.
Speaker A:And so going to a therapist, having that language, working through that and having that language given to me has, has been incredibly important.
Speaker A:Just in naming it.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:Naming it for what it is.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's, it's not, it's not easy to do that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it takes a long time to work through the ramifications of actually naming, naming what's happened to you.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Yeah, it has, it's been important.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:How did having that language shift the way that you were then able to start to unpack and process what had happened and you know, I guess start that.
Speaker B:You know, I hate the word journey, but the journey of like coming back to yourself and like learning to trust yourself again and, and understanding that, you know, this was, this was not something that you did.
Speaker B:This was something that was done to you.
Speaker B:Like what was that like for you?
Speaker A:I think, and, and not.
Speaker A:And naming it and understanding what, what has happened has, as I say, it took me a year.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And at least a year of working through that.
Speaker A:But for me, I, I also, I was putting the blame on myself too because by the time I finished My therapy.
Speaker A:All these other stories were coming up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I had been one of the.
Speaker A:The older secretaries, and I put that blame on myself, like, well, I should have said something.
Speaker A:I should have spoken up at the time.
Speaker A:So for me, part of that restitution to myself, part of trusting myself again and learning to trust myself, was actually doing something about it and voicing it and putting out my.
Speaker A:What had happened to me out there.
Speaker A:So that's when I. I gave Recovering Grace my therapy notes.
Speaker A:And so this is my story.
Speaker A:You can publish it because I want to put right.
Speaker A:I want to put it right.
Speaker A:I. I should have said something back then.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:And I. I now want to go publicly and say this is.
Speaker A:This is what happened to me as a warning.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was just.
Speaker A:I felt that burden of responsibility.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, that in itself is like a hugely brave and courageous decision.
Speaker B:Because your story doesn't involve, you know, this, you know, abusive leader in the church down the road that only, you know, 100 people in that town know.
Speaker B:Like, this man had power and stacks of it.
Speaker B:And so, yeah, like, that is a hugely brave and courageous decision to do that.
Speaker B:That takes an immense amount of inner strength to do that.
Speaker B:Where did that come from?
Speaker A:I think I've just.
Speaker A:I've always.
Speaker A:I've always valued the truth.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:It's a huge part of who I am, and I've always valued justice as well.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And also just.
Speaker A:Just that sounding the warning bell.
Speaker A: when I published my story in: Speaker A:And his.
Speaker A:His ministry was still in its heyday.
Speaker A:You know, it was still really strong and thriving.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And I got to that place of, like, this is not.
Speaker A:This is not right.
Speaker A:And I don't want anyone else to experience this.
Speaker A:He's not taking responsibility for it because I had.
Speaker A:I had gone to him first, as I was instructed to do, you know, and you.
Speaker A:You raised with the whole, go to your brother first.
Speaker A:And I know this was a huge accusation against me and some of the other girls who came out publicly against him, that we didn't follow Scripture.
Speaker A:But we did, actually.
Speaker A:We did.
Speaker A:We had been trained in the Christian church to follow scripture, and we were still in that kind of, I want to please God.
Speaker A:I want to do what's right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So we did follow the right thing.
Speaker A:We did go to Bill, or I did.
Speaker A:Yeah, go to Bill first.
Speaker A:But in.
Speaker A:But it was just like, I value truth above Bill Gothard.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I value my relationship with God above Bill Gothard.
Speaker A:I. I had got to that point.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Where that was more important to me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's been.
Speaker B: of said you did your story in: Speaker B:How do you feel about her?
Speaker A:I couldn't read that.
Speaker A:My story, for years afterwards.
Speaker A:I'm so.
Speaker A:It was overwhelming.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I'm proud of myself.
Speaker A:I am.
Speaker A:I am proud of myself for, you know, I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm not a.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:It was a.
Speaker A:It was a difficult thing to do, but it wasn't, if you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:And I'm.
Speaker A:I'm proud that I did it because I think they.
Speaker A:I think they got 40,000 hits on it and that they had to buy extra bandwidth at the time for their website because.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, yeah, that was just.
Speaker A:It had to be done.
Speaker A:I was just kind of in that.
Speaker A:That position.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But looking back on it, I think, gosh, I've changed so much.
Speaker A:Even in.
Speaker A:In 10 years.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Since.
Speaker A:And what a roller coaster ride it's been as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And how do you feel looking back on.
Speaker B:Like, you've mentioned it a couple of times, but how do you feel looking back on photos of that period of time when you were working with Bill and that part of yourself?
Speaker B:How do you feel about her?
Speaker A:I don't have a lot of photos, my.
Speaker A:My time here, but I mostly just compare myself with who I was before and how long it's taken me just to.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm still getting there.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I'm still.
Speaker A:And still getting there, but still getting rid of everything.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's just been.
Speaker A:It's been one of the most difficult things in my life to realize how.
Speaker A:How much was taken from me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, well, you know, there's still.
Speaker A:I'm proud of the way that I have.
Speaker A:I've faced it and I've dealt with it and tried to make it right.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And now I feel like I'm in a place where I can return to that person that I was.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Before I went to Bilgo.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And what is it like sharing your story and talking about it?
Speaker B:You know, it's like you said, it's been like nearly a decade, like over a decade.
Speaker B:I realized I just did the math wrong earlier.
Speaker B: With: Speaker A:Oh, 11.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:I was thinking 10 years.
Speaker A:Oh, my goodness.
Speaker B:It's Saturday my.
Speaker B:I mean, math is not mathing.
Speaker B:But anyway, it's been a decade or so, like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:How has being able to share your story, your story changed over that time?
Speaker A:How do you mean?
Speaker A:How is it, how have I changed?
Speaker B:What does it feel like to share your story?
Speaker B:Does it.
Speaker B:Does the pain feel different?
Speaker B:Does the joy feel different?
Speaker B:Does the, like, growth feel different?
Speaker B:Like, what is it like sharing?
Speaker A:Well, for a long time I didn't share anymore.
Speaker A:Like, I was just like, okay, I've done my bit, that's it.
Speaker A:No more.
Speaker A:Yeah, but, but I feel that.
Speaker A:I feel like now I just, I've got to such a good place with it and I really want to just.
Speaker A:I want to.
Speaker A:I want to talk about the damage that it's done.
Speaker A:I want to.
Speaker A:I want to talk about the.
Speaker A:The things in the organization, in the cult that can.
Speaker A:Are avoidable.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But also, I think, relatable for people who have been through it and not just.
Speaker A:And not just IBLP and cults, but also in the wider kind of evangelical church.
Speaker A:Because I think there's a lot of similarities in many things and often the evangelical church lays a foundation for vulnerabilities to things like the cult, the IBL cult as well.
Speaker A:So, yeah, I feel in a better place about sharing not just my story, but also the impact that it's had.
Speaker A:Anything that I've learned?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:When did you start using the C word with IBLP and calling it a cult?
Speaker B:Because, I mean, it's low.
Speaker B:Like, you know, we're doing a lot of posts with like the collective at the moment around cults and there's the Victorian inquiry into cults and, and things like that at the moment.
Speaker B:But it's still really loaded language for a lot of people to use the word.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker B:So when did you start using that for ib?
Speaker A:My, My parents actually used it before I did.
Speaker B:We love parental growth.
Speaker A:I remember when my.
Speaker A:I remember when my dad first used that word.
Speaker A:I was like, shocked.
Speaker A:So shocked.
Speaker A:But you know, I've been using it for a while probably.
Speaker A:Yeah, more than 10 years now.
Speaker A:And I'm studying.
Speaker A:I'm doing forensic psychology at university.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Well, that was the reason why I decided to do forensic psychology, just to.
Speaker A:To learn more about it, more about power and control and high control groups.
Speaker B:So, yeah, I mean, it's loaded language, but it also, for people who have been like, who've landed in cults and have left cults, it's also really powerful language to be able to use.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker B:Language and the naming of what it actually is.
Speaker B:And to not skirt around and use group and organization and.
Speaker B:And all of those sorts of things.
Speaker B:Whilst it can feel loaded, there's also an immense amount of power for a lot of people.
Speaker B:I found in using that.
Speaker A:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker A:I mean, again, it comes back to that power of naming something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you're in your life and actually acknowledging what it is.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:I think the word cult certainly does that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so I like to ask people where their sense of spirituality is now, because in a lot of these spaces, there's an immense amount of spiritual abuse that happens that coincides with other types of abuse.
Speaker B:But when they're done in a religious context or God is slapped on as part of the reason why these things are happening, it impacts your own sense of spirituality.
Speaker B:And you've already sort of alluded to the fact that that's been a journey within itself of, you know, relationship, anger, confusion, all of the things.
Speaker B:But where is that now for you?
Speaker A:So I. I had a. I had a.
Speaker A:My mother passed away about two years ago and I had a dark night of the soul after that happened where again, I was.
Speaker A:I had to just kind of strip everything back.
Speaker A:But I've landed in a place where I. I call myself a woman of faith.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I still have a relationship with Jesus, but I am not a churchgoer and I affiliate to no church and Christianity.
Speaker A:And I have found that my spirituality has expanded to such a point that it's incredibly liberating and powerful.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I. I don't know if I've.
Speaker A:I've got the words for it yet, but I.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:The old way that I was brought up and experienced was incredibly limited.
Speaker A:Limiting and limits God, or who you think of as God.
Speaker A:It limits your own spirituality.
Speaker A:So I'm.
Speaker A:I'm enjoying.
Speaker A:I'm enjoying that journey.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Of exploring that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it sounds like, you know, the experience of finding a faith and a sense of spirituality, that's yours, not anybody else's.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And that's, I think, one of the most beautiful parts of people being able to.
Speaker B:To have that freedom and that expansion, to just be curious and explore and.
Speaker B:And find what?
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And there are no rules.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think when you've grown up with rules, to actually figure out and find and discover that there are no rules to this.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It just kind of blows it right open.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hugely.
Speaker B:I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people, and I want to tailor yours a little bit to what Would you say to someone who has been hurt or harmed by IBLP teaching or by Bill's teachings?
Speaker B:Because there is a whole host of those people.
Speaker A:Yeah, I. I would.
Speaker A:It's a lifetime thing.
Speaker A:Like, I remember saying this in my speech at decol.
Speaker A:It's not something that is ever going to go away.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's always going to be with us, and it's a lifetime of unlearning.
Speaker A:But the beautiful thing about that is that even though we've got these scars and even though there's these things that have happened to us that we wish hadn't happened, that it's from those scars, it's from those wounds that we've been able to kind of launch ourselves into a whole new discovery about who we are and who the world is.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's this beauty made from those.
Speaker A:Those hard things.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Beautiful.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for joining me and sharing your story so vulnerably and openly and for doing the brave work of calling out the.
Speaker B:And the harm of these big, powerful people who usually don't.
Speaker B:Because, you know, the people who they've hurt are so scared and, and wounded and abused that they don't have that space to be able to do that.
Speaker B:And so thank you for being one of those people who did call out the harm.
Speaker A:Thank you for having me today.
Speaker B:Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface.
Speaker B:I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.
Speaker B:If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories.
Speaker B:Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content.
Speaker B:I love connecting with all of you.
Speaker B:Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone.
Speaker B:Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward.
Speaker B:Take care.
