The One Who Went In Search Of Authenticity

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

01:36

This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, Nismah. Thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me. I'm really excited about this episode because I really like the episodes where I'm coming in like pretty blind, like I don't know. I don't know much, or if any, of your story, except what you sort of said to me in the emails that we've exchanged, and whereas sometimes I'm used to coming into these episodes knowing quite a bit about someone's story. It's kind of nice to not know much. But before we get started, where in the world are you for everybody listening?

02:17 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, sure, I am in Western Massachusetts in the United States.

02:21 - Sam (Host)

Amazing. What is that part of the US like for those who don't know the US?

02:28 - Nismah (Guest)

Well, right now it's very cold. We just had six inches of snow last night, which is kind of nice and cozy this time of year. Yeah, it's New England. Most people think of Boston when they think of Massachusetts, and so it's it's. You know, I'm actually not from Massachusetts, I'm from New Jersey, but I I ended up here through a series of random life events.

02:51 - Sam (Host)

But okay, six inches of snow, yikes, that is a lot.

02:58 - Nismah (Guest)

Goodness it's not really even a lot, right okay?

03:03 - Sam (Host)

okay, I'm sitting in a sweat box currently where I mean it's like, it's like we've just hit summer. I joked last, like a couple of weeks ago, with someone. I was like I'm not a hot weather person and I joked saying, oh my gosh, like when is summer gonna be over? And they were like it's not even started and I was like, oh shit, so the seasons are opposite yeah, yeah.

03:27

So I'm listening to you saying snow and I'm like, oh, that sounds so lovely, because I mean, we're six days into summer and I'm already over it.

03:36 - Nismah (Guest)

To be fair, so it gets really hot down there.

03:40 - Sam (Host)

No, yeah, yeah, I mean I'm probably lucky in that like I'm on the south side of Australia, um, but I have lived in more rural and north parts up in like Queensland and um, and it gets it's like really hot. I have lived somewhere that's like I don't actually know what the Celsius to Fahrenheit ratio is, but for, like the Australian listeners, like 40 odd degrees, which I don't know, know what the Celsius to Fahrenheit ratio is, but for, like the Australian listeners, like 40 odd degrees, which I don't know?

04:08 - Nismah (Guest)

Oh, that's hot.

04:09 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, it's very hot. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah. So I'm listening to snow and I'm going. That sounds really lovely actually, yeah.

04:21 - Nismah (Guest)

It's, yeah, it all. I think it all eventually gets old and then you want the next thing. But try to appreciate it absolutely.

04:30 - Sam (Host)

I think it's always the you know, the grass is greener on the other side concept. But yeah, um yeah, if you're used to one thing, you want, you want another but anyway we're gonna digress there, um so uh, I I mentioned before. I like to start with a really broad, vague question, which is where does your story start?

04:57 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, this is, I think. Okay, I won't overthink it. My story starts when my mom came home after getting you can't see me saved, so I did air quotes, and that was when I was very young. I was probably like barely seven or eight, and we were not religious up to that point, um, and so when she came home, uh, everything just sort of flipped like three or I should say, 180 degrees, um, and we just life just became all about religion and church and everything, and she happened to adopt a very, very strict, uh, toxic set of beliefs.

05:53 - Sam (Host)

So that was fun, um, so, yeah, I think that so you love when trauma survivors say that was fun and we go it was not fun at all. It was not fun at all, dude.

06:07 - Nismah (Guest)

Uh, yeah, the sarcasm you gotta, you gotta have it. Um, but yeah, I would say that's probably the where the domino fell there what, um?

06:18 - Sam (Host)

and this is just like language that I use, but like, what flavor of christianity were you saved into?

06:25 - Nismah (Guest)

yeah, so it was like. I feel like it was a mix of like everything, but it was I shouldn't say everything, because there's a lot, but it was not one particular like we are baptists or we are protestants. It was, but it would. I remember a lot of like. There was like the speaking in tongues and there was, like you know, the like, a lot of. We ended up going to a bunch of different Baptist churches, so I think we kind of got into that whole Baptist sort of thinking. But yeah, I would say more evangelical flavor if I had to pick one.

07:04 - Sam (Host)

Okay, what was the flip?

07:12 - Nismah (Guest)

like for you at that age to go from like no religion to all of the religion. You know, I actually remember the moment that my mom came home like very clear, and I remember feeling this like this drive to like be cooperative and obedient. And then it was like you know what people explained it as like the Holy Spirit, know what people explained it as like the holy spirit? But now I, now that I have you know language for it, I know that it was just probably pure terror and misunderstanding and like confusion and so um, but I don't really remember much of life before that point, unfortunately, so I don't really have a comparison.

08:06 - Sam (Host)

I just know what life was like after that, which was just really overwhelmingly religious what did that look like day to day for you, or what did that look like in terms of what you were being taught about yourself and the world around you?

08:24 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah it it.

08:27

So we went, we started going to church, like as often as you can go, you know, every function, every service, sometimes four or five, even six times a week, depending on the time of year.

08:38

And so we, we just the, the identity of the family just kind of became this all completely enmeshed in church and religion and it was just kind of what we were as a family and it was very isolating of the beliefs obviously were very unhealthy, you know, um, homophobia and, uh, you know that purity culture, bullshit, all that like no masturbation, no sex before marriage. We weren't allowed to date, we weren't even allowed to talk about sex, watch movies with sex. It just became this super strict Puritan environment, um, and obviously, well, not obviously I, I mean for me, I was, I am gay and was then too, and so that was, you know, uh, my body just shoved that way down, um, because I think it knew body just shoved that way down, um, because I think it knew, you know our body, I believe our bodies are wise, and it knew I had to do that to stay safe.

09:51 - Sam (Host)

So that was kind of what life was like for a while yeah, it's really interesting because I think the uh, the people who don't necessarily understand, um, church dynamics or, uh, purity culture dynamics, is that I think that there is this assumption that churches just hate gay people, but actually churches just hate sex and sexuality. It doesn't really matter who is doing the sex, like yeah, just, they just hate it, they're terrified of it. They think that it is like the slippery slope to like hell and damnation, and the more I talk to people, the more I realize actually, like nature and therapy is probably that more than anything else is the sleep out of church.

10:37 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, right, uh, you know what, though? I think on the flip side, there's it's it's kind of masked. It's a mask for an almost an obsession about sex too, especially from the patriarchal lens of like objectification of women, because I don't know about you, but I was conditioned to basically just save myself for my future husband so that he could enjoy me. Quote unquote. You know getting all the messaging about how I would be a wilted flower if I chose to have sex before marriage and I was useless, and all this garbage. So, yeah, I think they're terrified of sex, but I also think they're a little bit obsessed with it because they're push it, so they push it so far away from themselves, and that that's why I think you see a lot of abuse go. That goes on in the church, because it's it's it's like. It's like trying to not want food. You have to have food, so you're going to figure out how to get it in shady ways.

11:41 - Sam (Host)

Yeah absolutely, I think it, and it's like you said, it's all comes back to patriarchy and the fact that they don't they're not just terrified slash, obsessed with sex, they also just like really hate women, um and and so like. That just manifests in in so many of the rules that we see and so much of the abuse that we see, not just sexual abuse, but um domestic violence and all of that sort of thing. So, um, okay, what was it? I want to go back to your story, because otherwise I'll just get distracted talking about the patriarchy we can do another episode on that one if you want.

12:21

But I'm curious, like what it? Because, like, I have a lot of feelings and this comes up a lot in in these episodes, but I have a lot of feelings about, um, children as young as seven, eight, nine, ten, um being saved and saying the sinner's prayer and you know, understanding childhood development and going. They've got like Barclay's idea of what they're actually agreeing to, what they're actually saying, and so how do you look back on that time period for you?

12:57 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, it was. It was a huge source of anxiety for me, obviously, you know, because in the doctrine that I was raised into it was it was about making sure that you believed it in your heart and then communicated it. So I remember I would be there countless nights. I would be up worrying oh, did I say the prayer right? Did I really mean it when I said it?

13:27

I would take? I would take anxiety walks, just thinking about it and repeating the prayer and like developing, like a compulsion around it know, feeling the entire, the literal entire weight of the world, because if I didn't witness to as many people as I could, they would all be burned in hell and it would be my fault. And so, as a young kid, you believe that just as much as you believe in Santa Claus.

13:58

And so you know, it all feels very real and it's your mind at that age is literally not, doesn't have the capacity to know how to cope with that in any way. That's healthy. So I just remember that really damaging my you know, I think how much I could enjoy the world and and my place in it.

14:19 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, did you find that you could like, did you feel like you were able to just like be a kid?

14:27 - Nismah (Guest)

Sometimes I I actually I went to public school and I think that that saved me in a lot of ways that, uh, I am sure I'm not even aware of. You know, just in terms of my development as a kid, I thankfully we weren't homeschooled, cause I know a lot of people who were or went to, you know, private religious schools, um, and I and I and I just feel really lucky that I had that experience in in like at least a secular, secular environment, um, air quotes again, um, so that I could get some other input.

15:08

you know, and I think that that it really saved me in a lot of ways and and kept me kind of kept what those symptoms sort of at bay from completely, you know sucking me into a full-on depression yeah, I mean often what I find when people have that of being able to go to a secular school.

15:31 - Sam (Host)

It's like the only time that you get to be outside of that bubble, like that like because you know it is when you are in church and you are in those religious spaces. It is like a bubble, like it's just so. Like you said, it's enmeshed and if your schooling and education is also in that, whether it be homeschooling or a private Christian school, you never get out of the bubble.

16:01 - Nismah (Guest)

That's a lot, very hard to escape that.

16:12 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely, that's a lot. Yeah, so very hard to escape that. Yeah, absolutely. Um, what impact did purity culture and? Um, well, I mean, this is probably a two question thing actually, so let's just start with what impact did purity culture have on you as you went into, like, your teenage years?

16:24 - Nismah (Guest)

yeah, um, I think it was extremely detrimental to my development in in every aspect. So, as I mentioned, I'm gay, always have been, um, always knew it. A part of me always knew it, um, and so I didn't really get to explore that part of myself at all really. I mean, I was a I am, you know, was a very sexually driven kid. I would sneak off and watch porn and I would still masturbate, and but it was all in the context of I shouldn't be doing this, I'm bad, and so it. It came with this like huge weight of guilt and shame that almost made it not worth it, but at the same time, it was worth it.

17:23

It, you know, because you got to do what you got to do right when you're like teen, yeah, so you know, but it just it marred the whole experience for me and something that should have been celebrated and supported um was shamed and really done in secret, and I think that that it cause I didn't date either. I didn't date anyone, and so I mean I wasn't even really attracted to boys. I would say I had crushes on them because that's what I was supposed to do, but I didn't really want to do that, you know, I remember having real crushes on girls and wanting to explore physically, but obviously not having the wherewithal to do that, but so it just it made me really behind in that in that way, in that area of my life, and I feel like I'm still catching up decades later.

18:49 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, there's. I find, particularly for queer people coming out of faith spaces, there is just like an immense amount of grieving about the lost time, but you're also grieving about the time that you're having to, like play catch up over the like, the next however many decades you've got, depending on when you do eventually, um, embrace who you are. When did you consciously know? Because, like as a queer person, like I, obviously know that there is a difference between knowing and knowing when did you consciously know what that was?

19:22 - Nismah (Guest)

I feel like I was very young. Yeah, I feel like I was very young. Yeah, I I remember, uh, having a lot of different crushes and just feelings for different girls and knowing that it, you know, knowing that it meant more than just oh, you know, you just think she's pretty, you know, like my, like my body knew, you know, and I didn't either I didn't have the language or I didn't have the permission to. You know, go ahead and say it outright, but I knew and but my brain just kept supp up coming out, um, until my mid twenties and so, but but when I did all of those memories, it was like it was like a room was unlocked and you open the closet and the boxes fall. That was kind of the experience and it all just kind of like clicked immediately and I was like, oh, oh shit, I'm definitely gay. Yeah, it took, it took 25 years to get there, but I got there yeah, welcome to the club.

20:32 - Sam (Host)

It's much more fun in this club oh yeah, it is, oh yeah I'm curious, you know, when you were younger, in that sort of like teen, pre-teen age, at what point did um the faith of your mom and your family become yours like? At what point did it become personal, did it ever?

20:59 - Nismah (Guest)

it's a great question and something I think about quite a bit. I really don't think I ever connected with it. I was always performing, always performing, and the reason I believe that is because it was so easy for me to leave the faith once.

21:17

I finally just gave it a little bit of critical thinking, yeah, and we can get into, kind of how I ended up leaving it, but it didn't take much for me to just kind of look at it objectively and and throw it out the door. And so I really do think that I just knew what was expected of me to keep my mom and my family peace. You know, there I keep my mom happy, I should say. And I just performed because I remember hating going to church. I always hated it. I would zone out in sermons and fantasize and daydream and I would go anywhere but the present and um, which also has ramifications in my life later, which I'm still dealing with, that that inability to just be present.

22:08 - Sam (Host)

But yeah, I mean, I think I think a lot of people think that it's just. You know we're daydreaming and we're zoning out, and sometimes it might be that. But also when you're in a space that is like fundamentally telling you that you are like basically really really shit at your core, and also when you're realizing that maybe you don't fit what they deem as an acceptable human being, that space doesn't just become boring, that space becomes unsafe and you don't just zone out, you dissociate and so when you dissociate, that's your nervous system just like disconnecting and that's gonna stick around.

22:51

That doesn't just like disappear once you leave, like you're not just zoning out during a boring movie that you watch every week. Right, it's um, it's so much more layered than that that that I just think, yeah, a lot of people don't realize that like a boring space is very different to that space being unsafe, as well. Totally yeah. Is that how you experienced it at the time?

23:21 - Nismah (Guest)

Oh, probably, yeah, when I think back, I mean I would would have like this is kind of weird to say, but I would have like story lines in my head that I would have reserved just for church services, and whenever I would be in the church service, my mind would go back into that storyline and just re-enter, like a like an imaginative thing, like yeah, I was imagining myself in a movie or something and it would just I would reenter that, go there for however long the service was and then come out of it and leave it till the next week and the next week, and I didn't realize I was doing that. But it was like this mechanism that my brand developed just to keep me somewhat, I guess, like you said, safe in that while I was there and dissociated, tuned out whatever you want to call it for sure, oh I was.

24:17 - Sam (Host)

I became a master at that yeah, it sounds like it was almost like a um. Like we talk about trauma responses. It was like a comfort response for your nervous system to go into, like the same world, to separate yourself from the world that you were presently in.

24:35 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, yeah.

24:37 - Sam (Host)

Brain in the body is really cool if you give it the chance to be.

24:41 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, totally Amazing yeah.

24:44 - Sam (Host)

I mean I'm curious what impact that had all of that and I guess you know the experience of like going from unconsciously to like consciously masking your sexuality and who you were. What impact did that have on like building friendships and relationships as a teenager?

25:05 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, I was. I remember I started to get depressed when I was in, when I entered high school, because, you know, that's the time when you start, you're supposed to start dating and exploring your body, etc. And all my friends were doing it and talking about it and I wasn't and I was the weird one, and so it definitely. It was isolating and I was very sheltered and shut out from a lot of that. I wasn't allowed to go to the parties and certain meetups and things that made me kind of stick out like the weird one ups and things that made me kind of stick out like the weird one. And, um, but believe it or not, the group of friends I had were extremely, um, like they held a lot of space for me and they were very kind people and still are to this day, and it was almost like they all kind of had this awareness about me that I didn't like maybe they could see that I was in a really bad situation that I couldn't see.

26:07

Yeah, uh, and they all just kind of held this really really kind space for me. Um, I remember one of my friends was is gay and I was very judgmental of him and he was still my friend. You know it was crazy, you know and and just I don't, I don't know what it was about those people, but very grateful that I had that, because I, because I feel like it, it could have gone the other way, you know where I could have been completely isolated, but but yeah, it was challenging to say the least.

26:39 - Sam (Host)

yeah, I, um, as you were talking, it reminded it I can very much relate to like being queer, but also, um, I find one of the hardest parts of healing from religious trauma or deconstructing is um realizing the system of harm that you also perpetuated whilst you were in said system. And so, like hearing you talk about like your gay friend who you, you know, were friends with but had so much judgment for I was like, oh, I can relate to that. What is it like for you now reflecting back on that and going like I mean, I sit, I, the way that I go, is I'm like fuck, I really wish I didn't do that like, but also, of course, I did that because that was the system that I was a part of. But what is that like for you?

27:33 - Nismah (Guest)

there's a lot of feelings. Number one I'm a little embarrassed um. Number two, I'm extremely grateful that I had you know that the grace that was given to me was given to me, which is ironic because we were the ones supposed to be giving grace, right. Yeah, yeah, I just, I love it. It's dripping with irony, yeah, and then I also have compassion on that version of myself because I know, in a way, it wasn't my fault. You know, I was a kid and I was being brainwashed and abused and I was just doing what I thought I needed to do to stay safe. So it's a mixed bag of of things.

28:12 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it's um, it's often the mixed bags that are like really tricky to navigate once you're on the other side as well. So, um, I okay. So if we move into, I guess, like um, adulthood, early adulthood, because, like a lot of people don't necessarily realize that basically once you hit 18 you're on a ticking time, uh, to get married and start having babies, like especially as a woman, like that's what you're supposed to do so like once you hit 18.

28:46

That's your goal, um and so you know, growing up with purity culture, I suspect that was also the goal that you got conditioned with. So what was that time period like for you?

29:00 - Nismah (Guest)

so. So after high school, I actually went to Bible college.

29:06 - Sam (Host)

Oh yeah, didn't we all? Did you go to Bible college?

29:10

too, oh man, I feel like anybody who has come out on the other side of religious trauma has done some sort of like theological college, ministry degree, like seminary, anything like that. Um, because often I don't know about you but like I don't know if this is where it's going, but for me that's where the wheels came off, like once. You're like actually knee deep in pulling the shit apart and pulling doctrines and you know bible passages and stuff apart. You're like, oh, I don't like this yeah, yeah, well, do you want?

29:48 - Nismah (Guest)

to know what's funny and another huge testament to how amazing our bodies are. The only real reason I went was because I had a crush on my female camp counselor. Oh, we love who was a part of that bible school they had like a camp and it was just my brain's way of like being gay, I guess you know, I totally unconscious to me.

30:15

I was. I was not aware of this until like I was processing and looking back, right, but it was so obvious and and I remember that I remember getting to bible school and they handed us this like three inch thick syllabi and I remember thinking what the fuck am I doing here? I do not want to be here. But again I shoved it down and was like I'm here, I got to do it, let's do it.

30:46 - Sam (Host)

I mean, it's the good Christian girl thing to do, right.

30:48 - Nismah (Guest)

Oh right, yeah, and I don't know why I didn't say like I'm out of here, Probably because I had nothing else better to do. Or at least in my mind I was like well, I guess I'm here, I might as well stick it out. But yeah, I.

31:10 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, what was it like? Because I feel like everybody's experience at a you know, a Bible college of sorts is is really different.

31:22 - Nismah (Guest)

Well, I I'm going to answer your original question about, like the getting married and all that but and it all kind of ties in. But. So this place I'll say it's called Word of Life Bible Institute. Maybe you've heard of it. It's in upstate New York in the US.

31:40 - Sam (Host)

I mean, I haven't heard of it, but the name of it probably tells me a lot about it.

31:45 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, basically super, ultra, ultra conservatism. You know, boys and girls are not allowed to hold hands, they're not allowed to be in a car without a third party, like we're talking like deep state stuff, right? You know, obviously no homosexuality, as they say, no masturbation, no porn, no, no, anything, right? I mean it's basically just suffer for the cause and be happy about it. Um, which was just awful, and I, what some of the stuff I witnessed to some of the friends that I had there was just really inhumane. And the way that they treated us was inhumane. I mean, they forced us to work as part of our curriculum, so we all had to have jobs while being in school, eight hours a day, five days a week. It was required. It wasn't like a work study program where you could if you wanted to, and that's how they subsidized your tuition, right. And then they made us work a full summer after, uh, or we would lose all of our credits. So it was basically like I won't. I won't say slavery, but it was forced servitude.

33:07 - Sam (Host)

I mean, it's a form of, like religious exploitation, really exactly, yeah, that's a good, that's like because I mean, I also assume that you know there is also the expectation that you are serving and volunteering in like churches and doing ministry outside of like the paid stuff as well like absolutely um voluntary air quotes, voluntary exploitation, because, like that's, you're advancing the kingdom right.

33:37

So like yeah and like that's that part of you, that's, you know, exhausted, suffering, burnt out and fatigued, um, but I'm really happy about it because it's like I'm supposed to be right.

33:49 - Nismah (Guest)

Well, I remember that summer we were I was a camp counselor. I was 18, counseling people 17, 16, like. I had no, no training, no proper like skills to be guiding anyone in any part part of their life, but there I was responsible for up to 15 children at a time, sometimes with one other co-counselor that was also equally unqualified, and we were working 18 hour days. Literally. We would get up at six and we would go to bed at like 1, 2 am because campus for fun, right, rock on. And so I remember they called a staff meeting and everyone was like yo, we're tired, we need more time off. And they said their response was you know, you should be grateful because you're better than you should be, and what they? What they meant was you should be burning in hell right now because of how you know sinful and horrible you are. So just be grateful, you're not burning in hell right now, so you should be happy about how exhausted you are.

34:58 - Sam (Host)

Not manipulative or emotionally like gaslighting at all.

35:02 - Nismah (Guest)

And I at that moment I was like whoa, there's something really wrong going on here.

35:10

So I finished out the summer but I had already at that point gotten accepted to the school that I went and did my undergrad at in Boston, which is how I ended up in Massachusetts. But yeah, to answer your question about the marriage stuff, yeah, that was like on my mind all the time. I was like, oh, am I going to meet a boy? Am I going to meet a boy? Am I going to meet a boy? I mean, my body's like girl, you don't want to meet a boy. No, I going to meet a boy. Am I going to meet a boy? I mean, my, my body's like girl, you don't want to meet a boy, you don't want this.

35:45

So I, I think I subconsciously pushed it away, you know, um, and I'm really glad I did, because I knew quite a few people who met their spouses that same year and we were literally children, uh, who didn't legally, could not drink in this country and were getting married and having children. And I was like, wow, I'm really glad that I dodged that bullet, but I mean that's like half of the goal.

36:02 - Sam (Host)

I feel like of why people, why, like 18 year olds, are going to Bible college or doing anything in that space, is because, like, oh, like, I can find my future spouse, like, yeah, that's like that's half of the intention, so, yeah, well hey, I mean, look to each their own right, everybody's on their own journey, yeah.

36:29 - Nismah (Guest)

But I am just really glad, in a way, that I had this internal resistance to the whole thing and I never really actually felt compelled to have kids, so I wasn't in a rush to become a mom. I'm still not a mom, well, I'm a stepmom, but that's a different ballgame. I would never compare myself to a, to a full-blown mother, um, but yeah, so I don't know, feel lucky in that.

37:00 - Sam (Host)

In that regard, yeah, I mean like not getting married, not having kids, like what was the? Were you treated differently for not doing the things that you were supposed to be doing?

37:15 - Nismah (Guest)

I don't think so. I mean by my family. No, okay, yeah, I don't remember getting much pushback about that, but I think it was because I was so driven in my career, like, I studied music and my passion is music and I make music, and so that was that's always been kind of a big part of my identity since I was really young, and so I think that kind of gave me this special permission to to live life differently, you know, because it was like this cool sort of thing and I was really talented and it was like, oh, go use your gifts for God, sort of thing, and I was really talented and it was like, oh, go use your gifts for god, sort of thing, and so I, I think I got, I think I got a little exception made for me there, um, but little did they know.

38:05 - Sam (Host)

I mean, okay, now, like music has entered the conversation, as somebody who is connected to music, how did you feel about worship?

38:14 - Nismah (Guest)

e singing hymns from like the: 1800

38:46 - Sam (Host)

were you ever a worship play dog?

38:49 - Nismah (Guest)

no, never. I never wanted any part of it, wow I would do. I would do like specials in church, you you know, and sing, but that's just because I wanted to sing and perform, because I loved it, but it was never about the song that I was singing or you know. It's never because I felt like connected to the whole thing. I just loved music and wanted to do it. But I know I never did any of the worship teams. I always felt like a fraud doing that.

39:12 - Sam (Host)

actually, yeah, that's really interesting. You're actually probably one of the first people that I've met that's been musically inclined or musically gifted, who was not thrust on the stage to do worship. Was there any questions of you as to why that wasn't happening, like why you weren't, you know, using your?

39:41 - Nismah (Guest)

gifts for god. Well, I'm trying to remember I don't think so, because, because I think I would, and often enough in performative ways, that kind of satisfied that pressure, like I, you know, like I said I would do like a christmas special or you know whatever, I don't know, but in my heart I always knew I was like I'm just doing it because I want to sing and because, you know, I I should, you know, according to the people around me but but it never was like a such a thing that, uh, I was forced into doing like worship or anything.

40:26

But also I was a very stubborn child and so you couldn't really make me do things I didn't want to do, and I think my mom learned that and so didn't press the issue. But there was, of course, always the pressure to be using my gifts for God and I was like, yeah, all right, sure.

40:43 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, okay. So once you moved to Boston and you were out of, like, your hometown home church, out of Bible college, what happened for you?

41:00 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, I had a really hard time. To no one's surprise, I was super maladjusted. I was immediately thrown into like a state of near constant panic and anxiety because I had never lived on my own before. I was always ultra sheltered. I had very little skills for building relationships that were not centered in religion, um, and I was at a you know, a secular school in a very liberal city, and so I was like a fish out of water, um, and so I was surrounded by heathens and surrounded by heathens exactly those heathens having their sex and doing their drugs listening to that rock music.

41:48

Yeah, meanwhile I'm like studying the rock music, figuring out how to make it, um, yeah, but, but it started. It started to unravel for me at that point because I started to just I was on my own and I was able to choose for myself what I wanted to do with my time, and so, of course, I started off going to church like a good girl, but I, I just it was. So it was so unpleasant for me that I was like, oh God, if there's no one to force me to do this, I don't really want to do this. Yeah, so eventually I just stopped going to church and, um, I actually the the third was it my second or third year there I developed a huge crush on one of my friends who's a girl, and that sent me into like a full-blown identity crisis, because she was my friend and I.

42:44

We had like a relationship. It wasn't a romantic relationship, but it was a real person. It wasn't like some fantasy, right? Um, and I started having these really intense feelings for her and it was my first real experience like that, where my body was telling me you want this, go get this. But my mind was saying don't go there. And so it was extremely disorienting and I had no one to help me understand it. You know, all the messaging I was getting was oh, you know, you'll be fine, it's. You know, whatever, you're just going through something. And so, of course, it squash it back down. Right, um, but that was kind of the beginning of the end for me, because it was like right, um, but that was kind of the beginning of the end for me because it was like it was only a matter of time before it was gonna pop back up again so yeah.

43:42 - Sam (Host)

I want to ask about that, but I want to ask first what it was like for you, uh, and was there any panic or guilt when you stopped going to church?

43:52 - Nismah (Guest)

no, none at all. I loved it. Yeah, because I didn't have to perform anymore, because, like I said, it was all performance for me. I never felt connected to it yeah and so I was like, nah, I'm good, and I just didn't go.

44:10 - Sam (Host)

I love that for you, I love yeah, I love that I love the lack of panic and guilt.

44:17 - Nismah (Guest)

I mean, I was panicking over other things don't you worry yeah, like my big fat gayness.

44:24 - Sam (Host)

But yes, exactly so I mean, let's get to that, because like, uh, what was the? Because I know what it was like for me, but what was that dissonance like between you had been conditioned up until this point to know that anything out of heteronormativity is not just bad but is like the root of all evil, like it's like the worst. It's like this idea that there is no hierarchy of sin, but gayness is absolutely at the top of the hierarchy of sin. Right, there's no hierarchy, but there is um, and this is like the worst of the worst, um, and so like how was it for you to have been conditioned to think that and now to be having like very visceral physical experiences of the?

45:17 - Nismah (Guest)

opposite. What was it like? It was terrifying, yeah. It was terrifying and confusing and lonely, yeah, yeah, and and sad, because it was just such an intense internal dissonance. You know, like, I don't know. It felt like being thirsty and believing that you couldn't drink water. It was like this doesn't make any sense.

45:45 - Sam (Host)

Um, so yeah, it was really really difficult I have heard, um, there's a particular trauma expert person I don't like the word expert, but it's probably the best word in this instance who describes cognitive dissonance as a pervasive form of internal torture and war, and I was like, oh, that's the best description I've ever heard, because that's what it feels like, right, yeah.

46:17 - Nismah (Guest)

Oh yeah, totally the parts of yourself, I mean, and literally I don't know. I mean you're a therapist, right, so I'm sure you're familiar with internal family systems and therapy. Different parts work. I've read a little bit about that and I believe it's really two parts of yourself that are just literally trying to take over and they're both trying to keep you safe.

46:39 - Sam (Host)

Ironically, they just don't know how to do it functionally, so absolutely and they're at war with one another, right like because they're supposedly total opposites, like at the beginning, like obviously, once you start to integrate that you can pull it apart and look at it a little bit differently, but in that beginning stages they're at war with one another. That's kind of what it feels like.

47:04 - Nismah (Guest)

Like you're, absolutely yourself yeah, that's what leads a lot of people to to suicidality too. Absolutely, I think really that's what it is is just people's. Some people don't have the the resources or the coping mechanisms to kind of we weasel their way out of that torture. Yeah, um, and I'm grateful for whatever chance you know, by whatever happenstance, I didn't go that route. But yeah, yeah so sorry, I cut you off no, no, that's okay.

47:37 - Sam (Host)

Um, it's a nice little lead-in, which was I was gonna say, which is how did you navigate it? How did you deal with that internal war?

47:46 - Nismah (Guest)

I thought about it a lot, yeah, and then I suppressed it. Yeah, I just shoved it right back down until it didn't take long for it to come back. It took maybe a couple years, um, until I developed another crush, and then it's that's kind of when you're gonna laugh, but that's so. I didn't suppress it at that point. A couple years later, after I graduated college and I deconstructed it took me like six months to deconstruct Then I started having another crush and I was like ah, all right, I'm bisexual Right.

48:23

I like, I like, left the door open.

48:27 - Sam (Host)

It's funny because I laugh, because I am bisexual but I and I still like it's, it's so used for so many queer people as like the acceptable form, because, like I used to describe it as like my straight privilege, like my straight passing privilege, and that I didn't look queer, I still liked boys and so like I just fed off that for a while, um, and then I was like, as I got older, I was like actually I might be attracted to boys, but actually I don't really like them very much. They kind of suck, so, um, so, but now it's like it is such a gateway for people, it's like the safer option because it means it's like it's not quite saying that you're gay, so like there's still room.

49:18 - Nismah (Guest)

There's still room for me to not be the thing that I'm supposed to not be exactly, yeah, and that was, that was my mind's way of like, I guess, avoiding the, that cognitive dissonance, while also avoiding having to kind of you know, or the potential of losing everything that I had known at up until that point. But in my heart I knew I was not. I mean, I actually at that point I don't know if I knew I was still kind of pretty self-delusioned. Um, and then, shortly after that, I met a guy and started dating and we were together for three years. We actually even got married, but it was not really like a real thing. That's another story for another day. Um, but I know it's not really a real thing. It was. So we got married, basically for papers, oh yeah I love that right but we but we were in a relationship.

50:20

It's just, it's, it's yeah, it's not like a the mail or a bride thing but, it was. It was definitely not like uh.

50:28

You know, like uh we weren't inspired to get married yeah, exactly like we went down to the courthouse and got it done, yeah, so, um, but uh, he wanted to go open like immediately, a huge red flag. I'm surprised. But I was also like, okay, sure, I'm down, let's try it. And so, in my literal, this was my first relationship, mind you, ever in my life and I'm 23 years old I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say he was not a christian.

51:03 - Sam (Host)

No, he was not.

51:04 - Nismah (Guest)

No he was not uh, actually uh not religious in his thinking, but grew up muslim, okay, so kind of the opposite right there.

51:15

that, like after covid, like: 2020

52:01

And I it became it at this point. Mind you, I was totally separate, like unreligious at this point, so there was no like homophobia in me anymore, but I was still very it was still suppressed in my body crazy so, but anyway, I was like I need to experiment with women and it became an obsession um meanwhile, my that relationship was falling apart in other ways, for other reasons, and it all came crashing down.

52:35

After the first time or was it the second time I experimented? I was. It was really the first time I experimented with a woman, um, and it was like the scales came down and I came out and left my husband in the same night oh wow, go hard or go home, right yes, it was talk about like a whirlwind. Um yeah, and that was four years ago, a little over four years ago kovat has a lot to be responsible for, hey I am, I'm not gonna lie like I.

53:18 - Sam (Host)

I'm grateful yeah grateful okay, so like my brain is going in like a few different directions, so I I'm like what?

53:27 - Nismah (Guest)

do I? There's a lot there. Yeah, because like.

53:30 - Sam (Host)

My first instinct is like, even using like at the time, sort of saying like there was no homophobia, but even at the time still using the word like experiment with women. Like it sounds like there you might have sort of like deconstructed and cognitively unpacked homophobia, but there were still remnants of it living in your system.

53:52 - Nismah (Guest)

Oh yeah, oh yeah, totally yeah, it was. Yeah, it was like, but it was whatever was covering, it was starting to crack, obviously.

54:03 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

54:04 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, and then it all came flooding out.

54:07 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, well, I mean, if, um, if you had deconstructed christianity at that point, which also like what was that? Like that's probably what was covering it up until that point like that's the conditioning. So if you're sort of like actively starting to pull that apart and dismantle it, it cracks the foundation, it cracks the surface. Um, okay, what was it like to deconstruct for you as someone who was not, like personally invested in the faith?

54:42 - Nismah (Guest)

yeah, it was very fast and very easy. Yeah, um I. So I graduated college and I moved back home to New Jersey and I was actually alone in my mom's house because she had moved with her new husband somewhere else. And so she was like you stay home, take care of the house and the dog? And I was like, okay, uh, so I was living by myself in that home, without the pressure of anyone around me telling me what to do, because all my other siblings were off in different places. And I just remember I actually remember the moment where I was sitting down, I was doing my devotions, as they say.

55:30 - Sam (Host)

Like a good little.

55:32 - Nismah (Guest)

Christian. Yeah, but at this point I was very like I was. I was on my way out and I was. I don't even remember why I felt compelled to sit down and do that, but I was reading that part in 1 Timothy where he talks about like how women should not teach my ass off for a degree at a prestigious music school. I'm pretty awesome in a way and like men are kind of shit.

56:16

So like this doesn't really make sense and I just remember feeling like okay, so basically to be a Christian means that I have to hate women and my, including myself and suppress, not only like my gayness, but also now I need to suppress my intelligence and my leadership abilities and I just was like also and in college had kind of made me like a feminist and so.

56:49

I was just like, if I got a pick between the two, I'm not picking the Bible, yeah. And so that was kind of the moment where it like the bottom fell out a little bit. After that I just started kind of scrutinizing other doctrines and then it was just kind of like, yeah, none of this really makes sense, I'm over it. It was that was just kind of it, and I threw it away and I never looked back.

57:22 - Sam (Host)

yeah, never looked back I mean like I often will talk about deconstruction and religious trauma as separate things, because obviously they are, and deconstruction is a it's often such a cognitive process in that you are pulling it apart and dismantling it. And critic I mean deconstruction for me is was like around critical thinking, like I was using my brain finally and actually looking at things objectively and differently. But were there lingering parts of that conditioning that you experienced growing up that you still took with you in your body? Because, like that's the religious trauma part, right?

58:06 - Nismah (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, totally. That's the. That's the religious trauma part, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. The hardest part for me was not knowing what my identity would be if I stopped saying that I was a Christian, because since, since that moment that my mom came home, my identity became Christian, right and so, and of course, that's the time of your life when you're supposed to develop your real identity.

58:29

So I never got that opportunity to develop my real identity, so my identity was Christian and so for me that was the scariest part, was all right shit. Cognitively, like you're saying, I know none of this makes sense. But now who am I?

58:44 - Sam (Host)

Yeah. And it was a matter of, I think, being brave enough to just say I'll figure it out, and I did yeah, twofold question, which is what was it like to tell your mom you weren't a Christian and what was it like to tell your mom you were gay?

59:02 - Nismah (Guest)

like the double whammy, right? I actually don't know if I ever told my mom directly that I wasn't a christian. Oh right, I. I'm sure there must have been a moment when we were fighting and I was probably like I'm not even a christian anymore. I don't believe this shit.

59:19

You know that sort of thing, but unfortunately my mom really struggles to hold meaningful relationships with the people in her life. She's very, very closed off and uses religion very much as both a weapon and as also a shield, and so she was not really involved in my life to the point where it would ever come up, naturally, you know. So, although I'm sure there's still a part of her that still believes that I'm just, you know, lost temporarily and will find my way back, I believe that because she mentions that a lot and so, or hints at it, I should say um, and then to tell my mom I was gay was really hard, because I knew that she wouldn't accept it and I knew that it meant potentially losing that relationship. And I was right, because she still doesn't accept who I am she still believes that you know it's a choice and that it's a.

:: 00:31

It's a sinful lifestyle that I'm living in, that and she has made the choice to not be around me and my partner at the same time, in her words, because that means she's condoning my sinful behavior.

:: 00:49

So, um, yeah, so obviously that makes it hard to have any sort of a relationship with her, which is really really heartbreaking and something that I think about almost every day so, yeah, is it a relationship that you've tried and I sort of ask this, based on, like, the experiences that I've heard so many times, which is that like are you finding that you are trying so hard to maintain that relationship and there's no, there's no reaping of any, any reward or any like tiny little glimmer, and it's just fucking exhausting yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at now.

:: 01:31

I'm, I'm exhausted and I'm I've done what I feel like I can do as a human being to hold space for her and her trauma and all that, but it's not reciprocated, and so at some point it's like yelling at a brick wall expecting it to fall. So you just have to move on and appreciate what you have and try to make the best so but yeah, it's hard yeah, I am.

:: 02:04

I imagine hot is actually probably a giant asstatement, to be honest yeah, yeah, it is yeah um, and what is it I mean? I like we're recording this at the beginning of December, so what are holidays like for you?

:: 02:23

yeah hard, I mean hard um you. You know. It's interesting because thankfully the rest of my family saw the light, the real light, I should say.

:: 02:38

I was lying, no, no.

:: 02:42

Saw the real light and they've all deconstructed in their own ways. Love that, yeah, and they're all totally supportive of who I am and it's not even a thing. So very grateful for that, because I know that a lot of people don't even have that, but it's still just my mom being the way she is and choosing the thing she's choosing. It just complicates everything, because it's hard enough for me to get down there, because I'm six hours by car away and um, so to get down there and then have to sort of like have two christmases or two thanksgivings just to accommodate her, I, I don't want to do it anymore. You know, and I, it and my siblings are all. They all have their own do it anymore. You know, and I, it and my siblings are all. They all have their own feelings about it, because, you know, everybody wants the nostalgia of family being together, and understandably so. So it's just. It throws a wrench in everything and it's just really a huge, disappointing pain in the ass.

:: 03:45

Yeah, and I I mean it almost forces you to, um, slip back into masking, like back when, like, you would have masked your queerness and your gayness because of Christianity. It's sort of like, even though you're out now, it's. It forces you to slip back into that because, like, you're around somebody who doesn't affirm you, and so it's like, oh, let's not be like, how can like, is this outfit super gay, like right, and it's all of those things that you shouldn't have to think about.

:: 04:19

That, um, someone who is supposed to love you is forcing you to think about essentially right, totally yeah, it is exhausting, but thankfully I have space physical space, yeah so that I can choose number one when to be in that situation, if I'm going to be in it at all, and then I have time to mentally prepare so that I don't do that, because I did do that for the first couple of years and hated it so, and I'm at a point now where it's not worth it for me anymore to do that to myself so, which makes it even harder.

:: 04:59

Yeah, so you came out about four years ago. What has that been like for you, exploring your sexuality without the shackles and entering into a whole different form of community?

:: 05:17

It's been amazing. I have loved the experience of being myself and, you know, meeting people with similar experiences or at least similar you know ways of thinking and it's interesting and it's it's. It's interesting I'm. I'm curious if you can relate, but I still feel like there's this crust this I'll call it a crust this hetero normative crust inside of me that is still kind of lingering, that comes off with time, but I'll find myself like every once in a while being like, oh shit, I'm gay.

:: 06:13

That's awesome, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I'll just like remember that I'm gay and and uh and all that I had to get through, I think, to get here, and I'm just overwhelmed with like relief and joy and gratitude and so that's fun. Like I don't know what it would be like if I was just raised in a healthy environment where that's just who I was and it wasn't a thing, you know, because it was a thing my whole life. That's just who I was and it wasn't a thing, you know, because it was a thing my whole life. Now it's a thing in my brain, in my body, even though I'm, you know, living truthfully. I'm just I'm sure that, like it's a different experience than other people who you know didn't have to go through that.

:: 07:00

But yeah, absolutely, and I mean I think that's just. I think people think that unlearning everything that you were taught as a child or, you know, deconditioning from faith communities or cult communities, like happens and then it's done like it doesn't. It doesn't work like that because, like you know, we will have things happen that we don't expect and you know that causes us to either have another realization or find something new that we need to unlearn, or suddenly be surprised that like, oh, my gosh, like I, you know, I obviously have a wife, and so like, yeah, there are days where I'm like man, I'm really surprised that I'm married to a woman. Like I just just like I'm genuinely surprised. Like yeah, sam from like 10 years ago would not be cool with this. Like right, so it just yeah.

:: 07:53

So there are, of course, moments where that happens, um, and like there's always like lingering things when you are conditioned one way. Um, that deconditioning process and that unlearning everything that you were taught, I mean, is equally not supposed to happen overnight and in a short period of time, but I think is just going to continually happen. Was there a part of you that found the transition from faith community to secular communities, to queer communities, difficult, or was that a pretty smooth transition?

:: 08:35

I think it was. I think it was smooth, because it was always who I was, and it was kind of like a. It was like I don't know like. I found people who finally spoke the same language as me in a way, and it was like as if I had been speaking a, a third language all my life.

:: 08:57

So for me I found it really seamless, um, so yeah and so I'm curious because, obviously, um, going from a hetero relation to relationship, to a homosexual relationship where they're like, um, which is like I say that and I don't actually think I don't remember the last time I said homosexual, I usually just use the word queer, but I was like, let's make it really distinguishing right now.

:: 09:29

Like, um, anyway, to go from like a male female to a female female relationship. Yeah, what was it like for you to unlearn, I guess, the traditional roles that people were supposed to play in a relationship in the early stages of that?

:: 09:50

yeah, do you know? So what's interesting is, as difficult as my hetero relationship was, um, my ex-husband was actually super open-minded and yeah uh, and did not conform to those traditional, um, you know sort of norms like you're saying. Yeah, I mean, he had his flaws and I had mine, but it was really refreshing in that way and opened my mind up to approaching relationships based on you know, critical thinking and what makes sense as opposed to you know gender norms. So luckily, I didn't have that baggage Right, I had a lot more baggage, don't you worry. I was. I had like seven suitcases full, but yeah that one I left on the plane.

:: 10:54

So, um, but, yeah, but. But that's interesting that you bring that up, because my partner and I talk about that all the time because she came from, uh, that dynamic where her husband was super like I want you to raise my kids and I want to come home and play with them, and then, you know, I'll occasionally cook dinner and get kudos for it. Um, and so for her, I think that's been a much more significant, uh, unlearning process. Um, and it shows up in an interesting ways in our current relationship. So, um, yeah, the patriarchy just gets its claws into everybody.

:: 11:33

So just fucking sucks. To be fair, um, what has been the most helpful or the most impactful, or just like, um, the most memorable part of deconstruction or healing, or coming out, or just like that whole process?

:: 11:56

I would say, the most memorable. So okay, let me frame it this way me it was like, once I did it, it was so obvious what was going on. And so I've arrived at this place where I'm like, how can I? Like, if I can just get people to be willing to go through that, it's temporary discomfort yeah, they can literally have a whole new life.

:: 12:31

And so I think what I've taken out of it is that who we're around really matters, as in the people we have in our lives and the more importantly, the messages they're giving to us. It's a it impacts us a lot. I think that's evolutionary and human and you know we're pack animals, etc. So I think what I, what I try to do, is if I can be that influence, that positive message in a person's life. I feel like oldest sister who was living just a few blocks down from me and she was not Christian at all and she held that space for me to figure it out and didn't interfere with that process, and I think it made a huge difference whether or not I knew it, because it was safe for me to explore that world. And I think if you don't have that, it can be the difference between staying trapped and getting out. So I don't know if that answers your question, but that's kind of like.

:: 14:06

I think that's been my biggest takeaway from all that, yeah, I mean to like echo what you're saying.

:: 14:14

You like everything that we know about, like our nervous system and trauma, and is that we are not supposed to heal in isolation, like, as humans, we are hardwired for connection and, in particular, obviously, safe connections, and so, um, we are not supposed to do it alone, and doing it alone is going to be exponentially harder than if we could do it with safe, um, nourishing connections.

:: 14:47

So, um, yeah, it's finding your people, and finding safe people is always such a crucial part of this process. Um, and also it's such a like it's one of the reasons why I started this podcast, which was that I wanted people to feel less alone, like you're not the only person who was, like you know, feeling panicked about, you know, not going to church, or like opening your Bible that day, or you know these things that other people might not be able to understand. There are people who do Um and so, which is like a lovely, like little transition to what I finish all of these episodes with, which is, um, what would you say to the person who was at the beginning of their journey of, like, deconstructing or processing trauma, or like the wheels are just falling off? What would you say to them?

:: 15:45

I believe this to my very core that we you listening can always trust yourself. I believe that our bodies and our minds always are wise and know what the next step is for us, even if it seems weird or hard or scary or counterproductive. Yeah, I just always believe that our bodies and our minds are guiding us back to ourselves. Yeah, and so trust yourself and take your time. There's no rush. Take your time, trust yourself, you will get there. Um, yeah, I think that's. Yeah, I think that's it.

:: 16:39

I love that thank you so much for joining me thank you for having me.

:: 16:44

This was such a great conversation, it's been a pleasure.

:: 16:47

I love chatting to like other late blooming queer people, it's just fun yes, and I would love to hear your story sometimes.

:: 16:55

Well, I mean there is.

:: 16:56

There is an episode. I've done a few um with other people as well, but, um, yeah it's. It's a fun time, hey, doing this it is.

:: 17:08

It's like it's therapeutic though yeah you should be charging for these um but yes, thank you so much.

:: 17:16

Um, it's been a pleasure chatting. Yeah, back at you. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.