The One Who Chose Love Over Dogma

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam: 00:00:58

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface.

Sam: 00:01:39

Welcome. Linda, thanks for joining me.

Linda: 00:01:42

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.

Sam: 00:01:44

I love. I. I've said this before in other episodes, but I love talking to people with an Australian acc.

There's just something like warm and familiar and comforting. I mean, I love my international guests, but there's something warm and comforting about chatting to someone who has the same accent as you.

So it's nice.

Linda: 00:02:05

I agree. It's like when you're on the Qantas flight, when you've been traveling and you hear that first Australian accent and it's like, ah, feels like home.

Sam: 00:02:13

Yes, absolutely. Now AUSTRALIAN accent But I know you are not sitting in Australia right now, so if you can share.

For all of the listeners, where in the world are you?

Linda: 00:02:24

At the moment, I am in Hong Kong.

Sam: 00:02:28

Lovely. What is Hong Kong like? I have never been there. To be honest, I don't know a whole lot about it.

Linda: 00:02:36

Oh, okay. Well, I. I love Hong Kong. It's a super vibrant, energetic, very diverse city.

It's not a nation, it's a special administrative region, but it feels very much like its own entity, even though it is part of China. Yeah. And it is a real melting pot of ethnicities and faiths and worldviews, and it's a very densely populated city. And so it's.

There's just always something happening. So that's quite energizing. But it also has a lot of natural country parks or what we would call national parks in Australia.

So within probably 15 minutes of most places, you can get into the wilderness.

So, yeah, which most people don't know that about Hong Kong is that it's, it's very mountainous and so the people are concentrated in sort of small pockets closer to the coast generally. And it's made up of a series of islands, but within a ferry ride or a taxi or a walk, you can get into nature very easily. And it's.

Yeah, it's unexpected and lovely.

Sam: 00:03:59

Yeah, that's beautiful. The energizing nature of a city, but the calming aspect of nature being at a fingertip away, basically. That's.

Linda: 00:04:09

Yeah, very much so. Yeah.

Sam: 00:04:11

Now, I know that you've just finished telling me that you listen to the podcast, so I'm sure my first question will come as absolutely no surprise to you, which is, Linda, where does your story start?

Linda: 00:04:25

Yeah, where did my story start? I wasn't quite expecting it, Phra. Your question phrase that way. Where does my story start?

Well, it starts in a little, not so little now, but was little town, just south of Wollongong, which is south of Sydney in New South Wales, Australia. My father's family are dairy farmers. So my introduction into life was living on a dairy farm at the foothills of the escarpment.

And quite idyllic as a child to be surrounded by, you know, that rural environment.

From a faith perspective, what's probably key there is that we were part of a small, largely farming based community that was highly churched and so church life was part of just public life really, the greater context. I'm the oldest of five girls. Wow.

Sam: 00:05:33

It's a lot of feminine energy in one family.

Linda: 00:05:37

Yeah. And we, we sort of joke about the fact that there was my dad and then obviously my mum and five girls.

And our dog was female, our cat was female, and we're pretty sure that the goldfish were probably female as well. And obviously in a day on a dairy farm, all the cows, you know, bar a couple are females too. Yeah, A lot of feminine energy.

But my dad had the right temperament, I think, to handle the very strong personalities that each of his family members had. So very easygoing, very calm, very gentle. So, yeah, that's, that's where the story starts.

Sam: 00:06:22

Okay, now I vaguely remember from what you sent through Christian community, is that correct?

Linda: 00:06:32

Yes.

Sam: 00:06:32

What flavor of Christianity were you raised with?

Linda: 00:06:36

Yeah, so that's, that's a, that is interesting question to answer because where we Started as a family. Well, my dad started as, I think Presbyterian. My mum started as neutral.

My mum's, my mum immigrated to Australia from the UK when she was three or four and was not raised with any real religious background. My dad however, was deeply embedded in that sort of farming culture and community.

But when I was four, I believe it's hard to remember, you know, what, what do I remember and what do I see from, what do I remember from photos and stories that other people tell. But around that age our family actually became Seventh Day Adventists. Oh yeah. So plot twist.

Sam: 00:07:28

Yeah, that is quite the plot twist.

Linda: 00:07:32

Yeah.

So for a couple of years we were part of a Seventh Day Adventist community which meant that as much as he could, my dad inflicted vegetarianism on us as children. And not that I've got anything against being a vegetarian, but as a four.

Sam: 00:07:47

Year old and as a farmer, that's really interesting.

Linda: 00:07:52

Yeah, so, and very interesting because my mum is English and came from a mining community in Yorkshire and you know, they ate bread and meat dripping and fry ups etc. So mum's rebellion started at that point because she, she was not prepared to adopt the vegetarian lifestyle.

But my dad, my dad did his best to educate his offspring. So we went to church on a Saturday.

We were largely vegetarian and not that it was an issue for a small child, but you know, there's no tea or coffee or alcohol or anything like that as well. So we were there for a number of years.

And I guess what's relevant, one of the things that's relevant to my evolution and my faith journey and I guess my life is that during that time my dad had an eating disorder. So we're talking about the very early 70s and that was that Seventh Day Adventist environment which is very tightly controlled.

A lot of rules and rituals and a lot of rules around food was really, let's say that his inclination towards controlling his food, you know, escalated in that context. So I'm not sure which came first, but certainly that contributed.

And he had a mental breakdown and spent an extended period of time in different psychiatric care whilst I was, you know, from the age of maybe four to six.

Sam: 00:09:45

Okay.

Linda: 00:09:46

So that had a profound impact on our family that my dad was absent for a large amount of that time.

Sam: 00:09:52

Yeah.

Linda: 00:09:52

And to be fair, that community that we were part of were quite helpful in caring for myself and my siblings because my mom, my mom not unusual for the time, had she had three children by the time she was 22 and she lost her own mum when she was pregnant with number three of the Children. So, you know, my mum wasn't even 24 and she had lost her, her mum to a heart attack.

She had lost her husband to a psych unit, and she'd lost her own father to the grief of losing his wife at a very young age.

Sam: 00:10:36

Yeah.

Linda: 00:10:37

And so she was very isolated and caring for small children, no income.

And initially that Seventh Day Adventist community were very helpful in caring for us to give her a break because my mum also has a whole raft of health issues. And over time that became clear that that was not the right environment for our family.

And the lovely neighbors of our, of our community in Albion park sort of took on the role of family for us. And a number of them were Anglicans. And so that led to the next faith journey pivot in my story. So I'm not even seven.

We've already had a couple of plot twists.

So after my dad returned to the family home, we as children became involved in the local Anglican church, largely through the influence of our neighbors who took on a very strong role in helping my mum to raise us. Because now by this point, my mum's pregnant with child number four and. Yeah.

So Sunday school at the local Anglican church then became a sanctuary for me and my sisters. It became quite a foundational, stabilizing influence for us. And it was, yeah, wonderful.

Sam: 00:12:08

Yeah. I'm curious what. I mean, Sunday school for everybody who has ever experienced it is a little bit different.

Some people thrive in that space and other people do not thrive in that space.

I know a little bit about the Anglican Church, particularly the Sydney Anglicans, but what was it like for you being in a Sunday school environment in an Anglican church? What were you taught? What beliefs did you internalize at that time?

Linda: 00:12:38

Well, probably all the things that you expect, but as a 7 or 8 year old, I just lapped it up with enthusiasm. It was a very structured, ordered, safe, for myself anyway, safe environment there. The expectations were clear.

The completion of tasks and the rewards were very clear. And so for somebody who was feeling very destabilized generally, Sunday school represented a really strong sense of security.

But 100% we were fed and I, as I said, I lapped it up without even thinking about it. Eternal torment and punishment and original sin. I, I think the reality of those concepts didn't really penetrate super deep at that age.

It was more about just the fun of being in this environment where if you behaved well, you were rewarded. So it's like very clear rules. You know, there's no ambiguity for a person who has, you know, eldest of a Large family.

And it's probably naturally wired that way. Anyway, it was like, okay, these are my people. I. My life makes sense in the context of this environment.

And so I stayed part of that church community until I was 19.

Sam: 00:14:11

Wow.

Sam: 00:14:11

Okay. I mean, I suspect, like, I suspect at that age you had, like you said, you had transitioned through multiple church communities.

So much chaos, so much change, so much instability. Most of the time, any sort of faith community brings us security and stability and order and black and white answers and this or that.

And so, you know, it's unsurprising, I guess, that that's the way that you experienced it. Become more than just fun.

Linda: 00:14:50

Yet. Probably more than just fun. I think I started to take the responsibilities of being a Jesus follower very seriously from a reasonably early age.

Again, I think I'm naturally wired that way to be a bit of a crusader, savior of the world. That was, you know, I slipped the cape on quite readily.

Sam: 00:15:13

Yeah, yeah. So.

Linda: 00:15:17

And I think again, because of my family circumstances, I saw myself as sort of the glue that was holding our family together. Misplaced. But as a six or seven year old, I mean, I was given the responsibility for caring for my younger siblings very early on.

Sam: 00:15:34

Yeah.

Linda: 00:15:35

And so I sort of rose to that challenge. So then put me in the context of saving the world. It was just the natural next step for me.

So, I mean, I would have conversations of an evangelical nature with my teachers in high school. I would trail different teachers around the playground. I mean, I must have been obnoxious.

They were so patient having, you know, asking sort of existential questions of them and their faith, you know, and belief system. Particularly our social studies teacher who was teaching us about evolution.

Sam: 00:16:18

Yeah.

Linda: 00:16:19

And I, I thought, you know, it's up to me at all of 12 years of age to, you know, show him the error of his ways and convince him that actually seven day creation is the way things have happened.

Sam: 00:16:31

Yeah.

Linda: 00:16:31

And. And with great passion and enthusiasm. And I think they respected my sincerity.

Sam: 00:16:40

Yeah.

Linda: 00:16:42

But, yeah, so I, I was involved in all the things. I taught Sunday school. I sang songs, you know, when we were allowed to in the Anglican Church because it is quite. There's a clear hierarchy there.

And being female, there's a limitation on things that you're able to do. But whatever I was allowed to do, I did, other than mowing the lawn and doing the flower arranging, which is a big.

Which is a key component of a rural church. Yes. But everything else. Yeah. Youth ministry, scripture.

At high school, I was part of the Inter School Christian Fellowship and saw all of those things as being really important.

And as much as there was a discomfort in, in standing out from other students and becoming publicly known as a Christian, I felt like that was part of, you know, my cross to bear, so to speak. And so did all of those things well into early adulthood with the Anglican Church. And then pivoted again.

Sam: 00:17:58

Okay, I love the story about the, the evolution part.

I laugh, I laugh at that because I was also that kid in high school that flat out refused to stay in my science classes when he wanted to teach about evolution. And they were, they were. Yes, I know. My, my very sweet to you 7 year 8 self. Just thought that she knew better.

But like you said, it is just the mindset that you have at that time. Before we get to the next pivot, I want to ask, during your teenage years, who was God to you and how did you relate to him?

Linda: 00:18:44

Yeah, God, I think sort of almost had bipolar for me.

I had sort of switched from benevolent Santa Claus type figure to desperately trying to have what felt like an authentic relationship with a Jesus style personality. But it never sat comfortably with me. I think in, in practical terms, God was the church that I was part of.

And I didn't think too much beyond how the, the way that I perceived God, how that impacted anybody else. I was very comfortable with the notion that I'd found the truth.

Sam: 00:19:42

Yeah.

Linda: 00:19:43

And that, you know, moving forward, I didn't need to revisit the truth. I just needed to help convince the rest of the world that I nailed it at 12.

Sam: 00:19:53

Yeah. The moral superiority, isn't it? That comes very quickly. I mean, you, you very briefly touched on it.

But I'm wondering what you thought your life trajectory was going to be as you were sort of coming out of high school as a woman in the Anglican Church. Yeah.

Linda: 00:20:19

Interestingly, at that point in my life, I did not have any aspirations to have any position of greater influence. And I didn't understand women who were, you know, causing problems and, you know, sort of really agitating for change.

I thought, oh no, that's okay, we can be. Because of course I was going to be a missionary, wasn't I?

Sam: 00:20:45

Oh, right, of course.

Linda: 00:20:47

It's the logical career path. And I was going to.

And the, the irony of that is that for probably four or five years in high school where I thought, I'm going to do some, I'm going to get educated in some way, but then I'm obviously going to the mission field, but please God, don't send me to China.

Sam: 00:21:09

That is ironic.

Linda: 00:21:11

I know I've spent, you know, more than 30 years in and out of China, not as a missionary, though, and that's probably been helpful. So I just thought that I would always be involved in church. And of course, the goal for anyone in my.

With my worldview at that point was to marry somebody who also wanted to, you know, save the world so that we could do that together. And that whatever I did outside of church was really supplementary.

That, you know, I would get educated so that I could be employed, but the highest calling would be whatever I would be doing at church.

Sam: 00:21:57

Yeah.

Linda: 00:21:58

So.

Sam: 00:21:59

Okay.

Linda: 00:21:59

Good times.

Sam: 00:22:02

We love that, don't we? Okay. I probably could guess, but I'm. I'm going to go with. Where did we next pivot to?

Linda: 00:22:15

Well, we had a brief pivot into Churches of Christ purely through circumstances. Okay. Because when I left the Anglican Church, it was because I went and lived overseas in, in America for 12 months.

Because I did actually go and get meaningful employment and university education.

Sam: 00:22:37

Right.

Linda: 00:22:38

And so I. I had a scholarship to go and do my final year of university at a business school in North Carolina.

So I went over there and that was a very, you know, important move for me.

a plane. Yeah. So that was in: 1990

So going over there definitely opened my eyes because I then went and traveled around Europe in the break.

And then when I came back to Australia, I just happened upon this Churches of Christ because my family had started going there and I was only there for a matter of months and I met the person that I married, and I'm still married to, and he has a very interesting story, but he was the one that decided that when we moved to the town where he was working, he was working for the Air Force at that point as a pilot. And we moved up to Newcastle, to Williamtown, that we would go to a Pentecostal church.

Sam: 00:23:55

I'm so shocked, Linda.

Linda: 00:23:57

I know you could write the script, couldn't you? So he took me to this Pentecostal church and I was horrified because I couldn't understand why all of the songs had to be sung so many times.

You know, in the Anglican Church we have five or six verses, but in the Pentecostal Church, it's just one verse sung repeatedly.

So I found it culturally quite confronting the charismatic aspect of worship and people speaking in tongues and just the more demonstrative way of engaging in a service was really disconcerting for me and I didn't enjoy it initially, but again, there's so many layers to this story. But one of my sisters married somebody who is. Became a minister and it still is a minister, a Pentecostal minister.

And they visited with us and they in, in that visit, my husband and I were baptized in the Holy Spirit. And so then all of a sudden my experience at the Pentecostal Church changed.

Sam: 00:25:20

Yeah.

Linda: 00:25:20

And. And that became our home for the next four years until we moved to Hong Kong. And so.

And then, you know, then we pivoted again because we're in a whole different community and culture and. But the Pentecostal years were very impacting and very formative for me.

And I stayed part of some version of a Pentecostal church then for the next long time. I'm thinking 20 plus years, maybe longer. 25. And during that time I was involved in planting a church in Hong Kong.

I was running a kids ministry, running a women's ministry, running a worship team. And then when we moved back to Australia for a time then I actually started working as a, at a Pentecostal church as the executive pastor.

Sam: 00:26:25

Right, you have done it all, haven't you?

Linda: 00:26:28

Yeah, I mean, I had actual paying jobs amongst all of that as well.

But yeah, I suppose one of the significant turning points in my journey was when we came back to Australia and I started working for what was a large, probably the largest church in our area, Pentecostal Church, very much in the model of Hillsong. And I volunteered in a whole range of different capacities and then eventually was asked to become an executive pastor.

So maybe like the coo, I suppose, of the church under the male senior pastor, but I effectively ran the day to day aspect of church life as a full time volunteer.

Sam: 00:27:18

Okay.

So I want to ask a question about that, but I want to ask one before, which is, did joining the Pentecostal Church change the way that you viewed the world and the way that you viewed God? They're pretty niche.

Linda: 00:27:33

Yeah, yeah, they are. I mean, yes, it changed. It changed a lot of things. I think one of the key aspects to our story, which. Yeah.

Early on into, into joining the Pentecostal.

Sam: 00:27:54

Church.

Linda: 00:27:57

My husband was diagnosed with cancer.

Sam: 00:28:00

Okay.

Linda: 00:28:01

And so being in a Pentecostal environment, when you're facing a serious, potentially terminal illness, there is, there's a lot what felt like a very positive, hope filled support there. And so that, and because he was successfully treated for cancer and you know, it was a very arduous.

12 months, that journey for, you know, particularly for him.

But for both of us, the support that we received within that church community was, you know, very defining in terms of our commitment to the community and our expectations around the way that God engaged with people. And we had, I suppose, success, if you want to frame it that way, in terms of praying for healing.

Interestingly, my husband's personal journey through that time, he would say now, upon reflection, and we're talking more than 30 years ago now, that he didn't ever experience that season chapter church word, isn't it? I know, but it's hard to find another word.

It's not also cliched, but that part of our life, he experienced that probably a little bit differently internally than I did.

And so, yeah, that set us on this trajectory where that became part of our expectation was to enthusiastically pray for God to move with a confident expectation that he would and that you as the person praying and as the person of faith, that you had some sense of clarity about what it is that God would actually do. So, so we took that perspective, that worldview into a series of other challenging.

So not to go too long on a story which is long because I'm, you know, definitely middle aged, over the middle of the middle age because of my husband's cancer. We were told we couldn't have children.

So then we were on a long journey of medical interventions which included, you know, some times of significant loss. That got us to the period of, got us to the point where we did have two children and when our eldest was six, they were diagnosed with cancer.

And so we went through a two year cancer journey with our eldest child that was incredibly traumatic whilst we were living in Hong Kong. And so again, that faith community and that Pentecostal perspective was very much a feature.

And again you're, you're part of a community of people who are reinforcing expectations and claiming and believing and declaring things.

So during the time that our eldest had cancer, I, I definitely, I can reflect back and say there were periods of, you know, deep doubt and internal dissonance about what we were experiencing.

But equally you, you know, I'd been trained to push those things aside and to sort of dig in and be faith filled and declare and confess and overcome and, and such. And so we did that and that was sincere and genuine at the time. But you know, I have different reflections on that part of our life now.

But that definitely reinforced our experience in, in the family.

It definitely reinforced our testimony and you become known for your testimonies and so it becomes almost a self fulfilling prophecy of the type of person of faith that you are because other people look to you, they need you to be what, what you want, you know, what you're saying.

And, and so it's almost like that closes out any room for doubt or questions because you're not only wrestling with what you're experiencing, but you're aware of the expectations of other people for you to lead the way and to be an ambassador for what God is doing.

And so regardless of what in attention there might be or how disappointed I might have been at different times, I didn't want to disappoint other people, which is a bit messed up. But I think most people can relate to that tension. Particularly in a faith community.

You feel like people are counting on you to be a good ambassador, faithful ambassador for Jesus in all of this and to have a sweet spirit and to have a right heart. And oh, by the way, you know, we're not sure if my kid's going to survive, so I also don't. I want to screw that up. Yeah. You know, so. Yeah.

So I think that, you know, roundabout way maybe answers some of the question about life.

Sam: 00:33:59

I, I mean, I am curious whether throughout all of that from the community, from the church leaders that you were a part of, did you only ever receive love and compassion or did we receive what I would call like, what it, you know, what is known as spiritual bypassing or like is like, was there any rhetoric around the fact that, you know, your child's health was, or your husband's health was a cause of sin or any of that rhetoric?

Linda: 00:34:39

Not around cancer.

Interestingly though, when we were endeavoring to have children, we did receive some very, very unhelpful, I would say toxic messages from a couple of key people that linked our tithing to our inability to be fruitful.

And then one person who I'm finding out that we were going through assisted, you know, reproduction using donor sperm, Another plot twist in our story, asked me whether I was, didn't, did I not think that it was the same as committing adultery.

Sam: 00:35:32

Oh my goodness.

Linda: 00:35:33

I was like, I hadn't thought of that till now. But still. No, but I'm not sure why you would think that would be helpful question to ask me.

Sam: 00:35:43

Yeah. Or an appropriate question to ask at all.

Linda: 00:35:46

But I mean, you know, oh my goodness.

Not, not entirely unexpected when you think of, you know, the nature of, of those faith communities in terms of the liberties that people feel like, like they can take with somebody else. Yeah. So not, not around cancer, but certainly around other decisions and choices that we made. People had some strange opinions on those.

Sam: 00:36:15

Yikes. I've heard a lot of things. I've not heard that yet. So that's it again, that's new. Goodness gracious. I mean, it is uns.

It's both shocking and unsurprising. It's that jewel thing because the.

Yes, the entitlement that people feel that they can say whatever they want because they feel like God is calling them to ask, or God has put it on their heart to ask, or whatever it is as a scapegoat to basically just get away scot free with us, whatever they want. Okay, fast forward to you being basically second in charge of a church. How did we land there? Did you want that position and what was it like?

The triple barrel question?

Linda: 00:37:07

Yeah, so I landed there purely not by design on my part or any sort of aspiration for that.

I landed there because the senior pastor at the church that I was volunteering at and attending was going on sabbatical for an extended period of time and they needed somebody to basically step in to oversee church operations and ministry, you know, be open ministries, etc. And I was approached. So I was quite shocked and surprised that I was approached and my husband had deep reservations about. About that.

Whereas I certainly, up until recent times have just always said yes to everything because that's what a good soldier does. And so my immediate inclination was to, you know, if you've asked me, then I don't really have the option of saying no.

The only sort of obstacle in that journey into performing that role is that I was offered this role as a volunteer.

Sam: 00:38:28

Oh, of course.

Linda: 00:38:31

At the same time as I was offered that role, a male was employed to run the community arm of the church. So the outreach, sort of more social justice. So we had a youth housing project and a community kitchen, you know, feeding meal during the week.

So he was employed and paid, and I was asked to do this and it was communicated to me as though it was a privilege to be given the opportunity to not have to be paid. And I did feel, you know, affronted. But again, it's like, I don't want that to get in the way. Like I don't want to have a bad attitude.

But when we did push back and just say, well, I feel like it's appropriate for you to at least offer to pay me whether I decide to take payment is my decision, that was met with a very defensive posture and a sense of exasperation and, well, if it really is that important to you, then you know, you're going to have to give us some time and we'll see what we can work out. And I look back now, 15 years later and I just think I was an idiot, but I, you know, I was a well meaning idiot.

Sam: 00:39:55

Yeah.

Linda: 00:39:56

And, and my husband, you know, it's just like this is not okay. But I also know you're going to do what you want to do. So, short answer is I took that job.

And, and I, I have, you know, many reflections on that journey, which was very rewarding in many areas but ultimately very damaging because the whole issue of pay, you know, for me it was never about the money, it's about what the money represents, which is recognizing the value of what you're contributing. And if that's not being acknowledged financially, then it does need to be acknowledged in some other way. And that wasn't really the case.

And it set up that the dynamic there in such a way that it was, I think, doomed to fail from both sides of the equation, which is disappointing because I really did enjoy a large many aspects of that role because I'm highly relational and I just love working with people.

And so I loved having the framework again to be able to be engaging with people, encouraging people and you know, being excited about the different initiatives etc. And so there was a lot about that that I really enjoyed.

But it was not a role where I was very good at setting boundaries as well, which is often the case in ministry because, you know, you're doing it for the kingdom and the eternal salvation of the planet, etc. Etc. So, you know, you can't really aff.

Forward to rest even when you told, you know, even when, you know, logically I'm going to have a day off, it was very hard to switch off from the people and the responsibilities and, and that was.

There was a lot of dissonance in terms of what was said to me and then what I actually experienced from the people that were, I guess, leading me, supervising me, you know, whether they were board or some other role. It was a very uneasy relationship, but I was very good at what I did and that made it difficult.

Sam: 00:42:29

Yeah.

Sam: 00:42:30

How long were you in that role for?

Linda: 00:42:32

So I was in that role for two years and I stepped out of that role. But when. Because I found it untenable for my family because my husband travels for work and he's gone a lot.

And I had two relatively young, well, you know, they were in their early teens. I was effectively single parenting and taking on a Large responsibility with a lot of expectations.

And I just got to the point where I, I just can't do this. I can see it's had the impact it's having on my family is not sustainable.

Sam: 00:43:09

Yeah.

Linda: 00:43:10

And not that it was, you know, really the big factor, but I'm, I'm not being compensated, so I'm not able to in the same way outsource some of my other responsibilities to somebody else. So, yeah, I stepped out of that role.

But for reasons really known only to them, the decision was made by the senior leader and chairman of the board that at that point they wouldn't communicate to the church that I was no longer in that role because that would be disruptive for people. So I would still be part of the church and people would still see me, and that was the most important thing.

Whereas if they told people that I was not in this role anymore, that would be unsettling. And I.

And long story short, why that is relevant is that when I eventually left the church three years later, I, I, There was just one Sunday I didn't show up. And that was the end of a period of life for me, more than 10 years, where I had been heavily involved in the lives of multiple people.

And because I was a very visible leader and nobody knew where I went or what, what had really happened. And I didn't ever get to say goodbye.

Sam: 00:44:38

Yeah.

Linda: 00:44:41

And that was precipitated by, at one point, the chairman of the board of the church got up in a church meeting with, with all of the senior leaders and leaders, groups and all those sorts of things, you know, 100 plus people there. And I was not actually at that meeting and announced to the church that I was not no longer able to support the vision of the church.

And so I wasn't going to be, you know, doing things anymore, like, with. No, nobody communicated anything to me.

Sam: 00:45:20

Yeah.

Linda: 00:45:23

So it was, it was just this most jarring, I think, disrespectful. Great.

You know, there was, There's a grief around that whole journey that sadly tainted so many of the good experiences that I had because I was, I was just treated so poorly because I think upon reflection, I was seen as a threat. A bit of a. We don't know what to do with you.

Because for once in my life, I'm starting to go off script and, you know, very uncomfortable territory for me. But I.

The internal dissonance I felt, the more I experienced the sort of the underbelly of church life, I suppose, I think we use the analogy, or it was used towards me is that, you know, the church Sunday service is the restaurant and what we do is the kitchen. And people don't need to see what happens in the kitchen, they just need to get good service in the restaurant.

And that's, that's a problematic analogy for so many reasons, but it was effective against me in that I have never, apart from probably now, never spoken publicly about anything that happened in any detail. Because I have never wanted to be the person that was bitter or a dissenter or divisive.

Sam: 00:47:07

Yeah.

Linda: 00:47:08

Because that was absolutely. We were indoctrinated into that mentality that to speak against or speak different was very, very unhelpful and destructive and. And not godly.

Yeah, yeah, definitely not godly. So.

Sam: 00:47:27

And I mean, the two things that, you know, that I pull out of that are, you know, such prevalent issues in a lot of churches, but particularly the Pentecostal church, which is a mass amount of labor exploitation where volunteering is just supposed to be a God given gift of your time and where the image of the church is put above and beyond the, the impact that it has on the humans in front of them. And the, like you said, the grief and the pain that that causes the people who are left behind.

To use that analogy in a different context, the humans that are left behind is just. Is palpable. So how, how did you deal with that experience within yourself and your family?

Linda: 00:48:31

It, I would say, you know, not, not terribly well initially in the sense that I just suppressed what was really going on. Very much took responsibility personally, that this was, you know, ultimately my fault that I couldn't make this work.

Sam: 00:48:52

Yeah.

Linda: 00:48:53

And I was very angry at my husband because I saw him as the enemy of my God given path. When what I, you know, can recognize now is he was really, he was my savior because he was the voice of reason that could see what I could not see.

To, I guess to bring in another plot twist that within a couple of weeks of me actually leaving the church, which was incredibly painful, I. I felt as lost as I have ever felt. But I knew I couldn't stay. But I honestly didn't know what I was going to do because this was everything.

It was my social network, my sense of purpose, my profession, you know, unpaid but professional satisfaction, et cetera, et cetera. My entire family, bar one, were part of that church.

Yeah, that a few weeks after I left the church, my family and I left the church, Our eldest child then had a nervous breakdown and ended up under the care of a psychiatrist. And you know, to open the door to A whole other chapter of our story then a few weeks later came out to me as being trans.

Sam: 00:50:13

Okay.

Linda: 00:50:14

And so that obviously became the much higher priority at that point in the journey.

And, you know, one of the, the good things that came out, one of the many good things that came out of that particular shift in our family's life was that not being in a position of influence in the church meant that I was not in a position where I would in any way betray my child.

Sam: 00:50:53

Yeah.

Linda: 00:50:53

Because I recognized had I been in a position of being on the pulpit on a Sunday leading in a position of influence, that I may have made decisions that I know I would regret.

Sam: 00:51:04

Yeah.

Linda: 00:51:06

Because of the pressure that I would have felt to continue to take a particular line and recognize that all of these people are watching me and have an expectation of what my beliefs are and what my position is on a whole range of things.

And so I'm so grateful that we had left and so we were able to navigate that next part of the journey without the, the pressure of, you know, church leadership.

Sam: 00:51:38

So what was that like for you internally? And how did it challenge everything that you had believed up until that point?

Because we know that fundamental and conservative Christianity don't love the queer community. As someone who has experienced that, so.

But I'm curious what, what it was like for you already sort of grappling with the grief and the disillusionment and the identity crisis that being post church brings for that, for your child to come out as trans. What was that like for you?

Linda: 00:52:15

Oh, I mean, my whole world turned upside down.

I, when they sat me down and said, there's something really important that I need to tell you, I, I, I sort of thought they were going to say that they were gay.

Sam: 00:52:30

Yeah.

Linda: 00:52:32

But so when they didn't say that, I was just like, what? Hang on. Okay, everybody slow down. I just had, I was totally blindsided. I had no idea, you know, which is not unusual for four.

So at that point, our eldest was 18 and a bit.

And as you know, they then explained to me this is, you know, whilst it was a shock to me, it certainly wasn't the first time that they had had that, that thought. And this had been a long time coming. Yeah. And so I would love to say that I, you know, rose to that challenge and just in became an immediate ally.

I didn't, I went through a lot of soul searching, you know, but fluctuating from, I know what's best for you. I've known you, I know you better than you know yourself. I'm your mother, etc. Etc. To okay, we can do this.

I just need to know what it is that we're doing. Do you know what we're doing?

You know, but they didn't really know, you know, so we were in a state of not quite limbo, but sort of uncertainty for a very long time. And there was a lot to unpack in that. Like, our eldest is also, you know, a cancer survivor. They're neurodivergent. They.

They have a lot of layers to their life. And so we were navigating lots of things and trying to find the right path through all of those different factors so that. Yeah.

That, you know, Jay could have the best experience of life.

But, you know, Jay was not in a position to tell us how to best support them, and we certainly weren't in a position to know how to best support them.

Sam: 00:54:42

Yeah.

Linda: 00:54:43

So I think one thing that my husband and I do do well, because we've had lots of practice with crises, is we're a great team, and we're great at researching and getting information and then, you know, seeking out people that can help us understand what we don't understand. And so we did that.

And, you know, largely Jay was, I would say, very patient with us and, you know, very understanding of the journey that we were on. It was not an easy journey. There were a couple of years that were incredibly difficult for our family. Very, very difficult.

Significant mental health challenge. And in involving all of the things that you can imagine, so very, very confronting, very exhausting.

And I think not being in church, well, the whole family were out of church, but I, because it's hardwired into me, continue to go to another church.

I think partly because I needed the structure to give me some sort of point of anchor that we were able to explore things that nobody in our previous circle or community would really understand. And we needed a lot of space and a lot of time to really wrap our heads around what it is that we were actually even dealing with.

You know, what does this look like? Because the journey for any trans person is, you know, unique to that person.

Sam: 00:56:36

Yeah.

Linda: 00:56:36

And so, you know, even dealing with assumptions or presumptions that we had, which our child, you know, Jay would say, well, no, that's. No, I don't want to do that. It's like, oh, okay, right. Well, what do you want to do?

Well, I'm not sure yet, but, you know, just like, hang with me while we work this out. So not having any destination particularly in mind or any solution or any sort of obvious pathway is really challenging for someone like me. Yeah.

But you know, ultimately it's been, I think, in an incredibly positive experience.

Sam: 00:57:19

Yeah.

Linda: 00:57:21

But, yeah, the faith journey and the journey of gender diversity and neurodivergence and mental health and my own identity, etc, all of those things have been, you know, intertwined.

Sam: 00:57:36

Yeah.

Sam: 00:57:37

I wanna, I wanna ask, I wanna get back to, I guess like the, the trajectory, I guess of like deconstructing and finding new beliefs and spirituality. But I've, I mean, we're recording in February. I've got to ask what it is like for you at the moment watching the discourse online.

Linda: 00:58:00

Yeah.

Sam: 00:58:00

And the atrocities that are happening across the world in regards to trans and gender diversity people.

Linda: 00:58:10

Yeah. Well, it's interesting that you asked that question because the reason that I reached out to you was because of what happened.

Sam: 00:58:19

Yeah.

Linda: 00:58:20

And I, I just felt like if people like me don't speak up within the context of our own lived experience, then that voice continues to be the loudest voice.

And I, I have very little interest in, in having online, you know, social media conversations because I have stepped into that very occasionally in the last couple of years and it just doesn't lead to anything positive for anybody. It's incredibly hurtful, damaging. I'm, I'm genuinely perplexed and I would say confused at times as to how people seem to seem so fueled by fear.

I mean, I understand the uncertainty and the fear of the unknown, like I really do, because I've lifted up. But for it to become so mean and hate filled and destructive that I can't understand.

And I think the one thing that I've said to people consistently, whether it's been a conversation at a dinner party or occasionally a conversation in a larger context, that with any issue, it's never an issue, it's a human.

So until you've had a conversation with a person who is indigenous or a person who is trans or a person who is gay, then what is it that, why is it that you think that you have some sort of monopoly on what is best for them? Why do you feel like you have the right to speak on behalf of them?

Sam: 01:00:16

Yeah.

Linda: 01:00:17

And I, you know, have had some very difficult conversations with people that are very close to me who do not share my perspective and are genuinely confused as to how I've changed so much?

Sam: 01:00:33

Yeah.

Linda: 01:00:34

And, and I have said to them, if this was your child, would you not change? And their response is, no, yeah, I wouldn't. And I said, well, okay. I mean, I guess until you're in that situation we really don't know.

But I can say that within a few weeks of our eldest, you know, telling us that they were trans, my husband and I went to a support group for parents of trans young people and I sat in that room and, and, and this is like six or seven years ago now, I'm still emotional remembering what it was like to sit in the room with those parents.

Sam: 01:01:11

Yeah.

Linda: 01:01:12

And so I've said to people, if you had sat in that room with me, you would not even think about opening your mouth on this issue. Because in that room were single parents, farmers from rural Australia, truck drivers, parents of 3 and 4 year olds, parents of 25 year olds.

And the one thing that united all of them is that they love their children desperately.

Sam: 01:01:39

Yeah.

Linda: 01:01:39

And all they want to do is is get resourced and get greater understanding so they know how to give their child the best life possible.

And so for someone like you to make assumptions and make declarations about the type of people that we are as parents of trans kids without even having a conversation with us, it just horrifies me. Yeah, I, I, where is the humanity in any of these conversations?

And for Christians, the thing that staggers me and I, and I am part now of a beautiful, inclusive, affirming church. So they exist. But for people of faith who claim to be representing Jesus to so to so largely miss the mark of what Jesus is.

I mean, Jesus constantly elevated and identified the other above the majority and included them and always took the path of humanizing somebody over trying to theologize something. Anyway, I, I can get quite passionate about it because I feel like it's just an unnecessary level of destructive, toxic, toxic, dehumanizing.

Yeah, it's a waste of our time. There are so many other things that we could be doing. Yeah, that's how I feel.

Sam: 01:03:13

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, and it's like, you know, you say that it's something you get passionate about, but it's necessary passion. Right.

Like because we're talking about human lives, so it's necessary passion. And I also find it confusing and bizarre at times, particularly for those who claim to follow Jesus.

I will off I find myself often saying to people, I, I don't have a problem with Jesus. I'm pretty sure we'd be friends if he was you today seems like a pretty cool guy.

I have a problem with the people who claim to represent him and who claim to know, who know more and who have that moral superiority that we were talking about before. Yeah, it is. I have found myself saying the last few weeks, what a world we live in at the moment, at the time, to be alive. And, yeah, it is.

I am thankful for people who are in the world of trans people at the moment, who are speaking out, who are not trans themselves, because at some point, we need to stand in front of the trans individuals and protect them. It's not their job to protect themselves. It's our job to protect them from the hatred that is being spilled out in the world. Okay.

To get back to something that seems far less important than what we were just talking about.

But now, I mean, now that I know, like, we have a little spoiler that you are at an affirming church, I'm now curious what, I guess what we would call your deconstruction has been like in terms of finding a set of beliefs, a sense of spirituality, and a place that feels authentic and affirming for you. Has that been, like.

Linda: 01:05:22

I mean, it's been long and ongoing, and I think, you know, the journey continues. You know, I think, you know, as fellow. As a fellow therapist, you know, now for me, life is just a series of questions. I just have so many questions.

And the first, let's say 40 years of my life was about answers. Like, I had them. Yep, I needed them. And particularly the journey of our eldest and.

And their neurodivergence and their gender divergence, if you like, has just propelled me into the area of gray, which makes so much more sense to me. And the funny, like, side note is that before I was married, my last name was Gray.

Sam: 01:06:18

Oh, that is funny. I love the irony of that. I know.

Linda: 01:06:23

And I was, like the most black and white person you could find. But now I live so comfortably in the gray, and I, again, you know, I. I have persisted, and it's.

It's not always been easy, but persisted to stay aligned to a faith community of sorts throughout the whole journey. And sometimes, you know, it was very healthy for me to stop going to church for a while.

I needed to do that to prove to myself that the sky wouldn't fall in or the earth wouldn't open up and swallow me, but also to have empathy for the reality of most people who are on any sort of faith journey. Is that it. It costs a lot to show up to a space where you don't know what people think, what they're going to say, how.

What their expectations of you are, and then be vulnerable. And I had been in a position of power, if you like, in that situation.

I didn't feel it at the time, but now Being on the other side, it's been really good for me. It's been very humbling for me to. To be the person that comes to church last and leaves first, because that's all I can cope with.

And I am so very, very grateful that towards the end of my time in my previous church that I connected with a female pastor of an independent little gathering of people church in our local area. And we just. We connected and we got each other. And that friendship is what has basically kept me still connected in some way to a faith community.

And I'm now part of the church that she pastors. But I've been with the church as the church has moved into an affirming space because it's a journey you're taking a group of people on.

And not everybody knew that that was a journey they wanted to go on. And so along the way, I have also had loads of therapy.

Sam: 01:08:39

Therapy.

Linda: 01:08:42

You can't live without it, really. I mean, I. I don't. I can't live well without it. You know, I'm not saying it's a. It's a.

It's not a weekly event, but it has been incredibly helpful for me to become aware of the areas where I was trapped and I didn't even realize it.

And some of the, you know, as you come into middle age, too, you know, it's been the perfect storm for me is recognizing that I have a higher level of freedom and in some of the choices of my life now. But I didn't even know what I want.

I don't know what I want because I've never really had a period in my life where it was me making the decisions about what I wanted. I was always searching for what other people had said was the right path. And I'm not blaming other people for that. I. I was drawn to that, yeah.

But it's been really helpful to be part of a very eclectic, diverse faith community that's affirming, that has a strong commitment to social justice issues.

And I'm the first to confess that I am profoundly uncomfortable in that church at times because it pushes on little sensitivities and strongholds in me. I didn't realize this. I still had.

But the benefit now is that when I feel uncomfortable, I just sit in that discomfort to ask myself, why am I reacting to this the way that I am, and what does that say about me and what can I do with that? And the other aspect of that particular church community that's been really helpful for me in maintaining a sense of faith.

I suppose is going back into more ancient practices.

So a lot of contemplative practice that is so grounding and you know, it's very embodied, which is the opposite of what, you know, my, my journey began very intellectual, very logical, very rational.

And so to be in a place where I'm able to explore spirituality and engage with God with my whole self, with a much stronger sense of what my whole self looks like, feels like has been, you know, fantastic. I feel the most settled and content and rounded as, you know, version of myself that I've ever had. But the circumstances of my life are still chaos.

Sam: 01:11:29

Does it ever not become chaos though?

Like, I feel like, you know, I feel like that sort of like balanced, you know, neutral, non chaotic is just an unrealistic image that we have in our mind. But I am curious, I'm going to throw a question at you again that I asked earlier on, which is how do you view God now?

And how do you relate to them now? And how has that changed?

Linda: 01:12:00

Yeah, how do I view God now? I see the risk of sounding like an Instagram meme. I, I, I see God as divine energy and love and I see God as being too big to be defined.

I, I don't know whether it's my Anglican roots, but I, I still have a Bible verse.

I suppose it's sort of anchors that sense for me, which is there's a passage in Colossians chapter one where in the message paraphrase in air comments air quotes, it talks about the fact that God is so spacious, that God is so roomy, that everything in creation finds its place in him. And for me that is such a beautiful picture of what I believe the reality of God is. It's we, we live within God and God lives within us.

And I don't see there being any dividing lines anymore. You know, a lot like, you know, the neuro binary and the gender binary, you know, the, there's, there's no binary.

It's, it's just, it's just a beautiful spectrum of experience.

Sam: 01:13:35

Yeah.

Linda: 01:13:36

And, and God's big enough to hold all of it and he's big enough to hold me and he is not remotely concerned. And I'm using he. I don't think God is he. I don't think God is gendered. It's just habit.

Sam: 01:13:52

Yeah.

Linda: 01:13:52

God is not in any way unsettled by my doubts, my questions, my insecurities, impurities, my disbelief. Yeah. And I, yeah, I'm, I'm so, I'm so happy in that place because it feels Genuine and authentic. And I'm open to it changing as well.

Sam: 01:14:19

So, I mean, what a beautiful comparison from God being bipolar to God being. We love that. I love. I love a good, you know, Polaris transformation. We could not have get further from there.

We could not get further apart from those two things. So I love that. One of my favorite things to ask people is because we.

We often think that the church, particularly, I guess, the evangelical church, owns terminology or concepts that they don't. And so I love asking people what brings present day Linda joy and peace?

Linda: 01:15:07

Oh, well, the first thing that comes to mind is my dog. And even as I say my dog, actually she belongs to my daughter. But I take grandparent privileges. I, you know, and always have been a great dog lover.

And I love. It's such a simple thing, but dogs only know how to be present in the moment that they're in.

And every time we take her to the beach, it's like the first time she's seen the sand and it's the first time she's seen a wave or that particular patch of grass. And so that brings me deep joy. Yeah, I love hiking. All of my holidays are based around exploring somewhere new in the world to walk.

And that brings me great joy and a great sense of connection to God and a great sense of connection to creation and my smallness, which in a, you know, previous Linda would have felt intimidated by being small because the goal was to be bigger and to be more. More.

Sam: 01:16:18

Yeah.

Linda: 01:16:18

But now I find it incredibly comforting to know that I'm really actually quite incidental to this great mystery of a world that we live in. And it doesn't mean I'm not important, but I'm not that important.

Sam: 01:16:35

Yeah.

Linda: 01:16:36

Yeah.

Sam: 01:16:38

I love. I love finishing these episodes with some encouragement for listeners.

And I am sure, you know, what question is coming, which is what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction or they've just pulled on that thread or they've just left church and basically everything is feeling really overwhelming for them at the moment. What would you say to that person?

Linda: 01:17:05

I would say to them that makes sense to me. And it's okay. It's okay to feel that unsettled and that uncomfortable, that that won't actually kill you, even though it feels like it will. Yeah.

That the God that you're looking for that had you where you were is. Hasn't gone anywhere. That.

Be patient with yourself if you can find somebody else to, whether it's a therapist or a friend or even a random Acquaintance. That's really important to me. On the. In the initial parts of my deconstruction were. Were podcasts.

Sam: 01:17:50

Yeah.

Linda: 01:17:52

And occasional YouTube clips of just being reminded you're not the only person in the world that's feeling the way that you're feeling. That there are people that have gone before you. And in.

Indeed, there will be people that come along behind you that, like, it's okay and it will take as long as it takes. And. And that's also okay. Don't be in a hurry.

Sam: 01:18:15

I'm going to throw one final question at you, which is, what would you say to parents out there and their kid has just come out as trans.

Linda: 01:18:26

Would say, exhale.

I would say something that was helpful that I heard at a support group was that when we use, you know, the expression that our kids have come out, consider it. That they have invited you in.

Sam: 01:18:47

Yeah.

Linda: 01:18:48

And that it is an incredible demonstration of their love and their trust and their courage in you, that they allow you to be part of this journey with them, that they have told you because they want you to be part of this, and they are looking to you. I think one of the questions that that was.

Or one of the experiences that was really profoundly helpful for me, although it was incredibly confronting at the time, is that in the midst of a very heated. Let's call it what it was. Argument with my child, they said to me, you don't love me. You love the version of me that you want me to be.

Sam: 01:19:39

Yeah.

Linda: 01:19:40

And I said, that's ridiculous. Of course I love you. And then I stopped and I thought, you know, what you were.

You have literally nailed the issue here, and that is I have to learn how to love you enough to let you show me who you are, rather than for me to feel like I know who you are.

Sam: 01:20:03

Yeah.

Linda: 01:20:04

And because they were brave enough to say that to me, and I think I was brave enough to listen.

Sam: 01:20:12

Yeah.

Linda: 01:20:13

To what they have to say. Our relationship changed at that point. Point.

Sam: 01:20:18

Yeah.

Linda: 01:20:20

Well, I think it doesn't matter who your kid is or who you know, they just want you to love them.

Sam: 01:20:26

Yeah.

Linda: 01:20:26

And again, I'm. I'm giving you a longer answer than maybe you anticipated.

But another really important thing is that my dear friend who helped me journey through deconstruction and becoming, you know, and understanding the world of.

Of trans kids asked me on one occasion where I just felt totally overwhelmed with the myriad of events and circumstances, and she said, what would it be like for you to just ask yourself, what does love look like today?

Sam: 01:20:55

Yeah.

Linda: 01:20:57

And so to, you know, the parent of the trans kid, I just. Just ask yourself, what does love look like today?

Sam: 01:21:03

Yeah.

Linda: 01:21:04

And it will look different every day. Some days you will be quiet because that's the wisest thing to do, is to swallow your doubts and your reactions.

And then other days, it will mean being on a podcast and speaking up in your own sort of, you know, from your own lived experience, hoping to encourage somebody else. Yeah, but what. Just ask yourself, what does love look like today?

Sam: 01:21:31

Yeah.

Sam: 01:21:32

Beautiful and so simple and yet so powerful and so. And I think that that's. That's when things are overwhelming. Simple is what we need. So. And I'm all about the long answers when.

The long answers of what the world needs at the moment. So I love that.

Thank you so much for joining me and for being a beautiful advocate for the, you know, unique and wonderful and necessary trans community in our world. And thank you for sharing your story.

Linda: 01:22:09

My pleasure.

Sam: 01:22:14

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on.

Sam: 01:22:38

Your journey, you're not alone.

Sam: 01:22:40

Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward.

Sam: 01:22:45

Take care.