The One Who Stumbled Out Of Evangelicalism

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface. Welcome, Brandon. Thanks for joining me.

Brandon: 00:01:41

Of course. Happy to be here.

Sam: 00:01:43

Before we kick straight into it, I like to sort of just give people some context. Where in the world are you?

Brandon: 00:01:50

I'm currently in Atlanta, Georgia, so in the United States. Yeah.

Sam: 00:01:55

Okay. Like everybody I've been talking to in the US I like to just have like a quick 30 second. How are you doing?

Brandon: 00:02:03

Oh, I thought you were gonna say 30 second moment of silence is what I'm gonna do. Very appropriate.

Sam: 00:02:10

How are you doing over there?

Brandon: 00:02:13

God, it's such a show. Yeah, yeah, I, I actually. So I was at a Quaker meeting house yesterday for a different meeting, but it is a Quaker meeting house. I visited here.

There's, I was explored some different spirituality posts. Even Jackalzam and one of their leaders was there and he. They're great. P.S. that's a whole nother different thing.

I can go down, but he was sharing with me. It's like I just always get hit with something. And he was just like, yeah.

As of today, like 300 more students were arrested and brought down to El Salvador. And I'm just like, what? It's just like anytime something happens, just like, oh, my God, that just happened.

You wait 24 hours and something else is going on. So it's just crazy. I also not friends. I have like one or two friends, but mostly family that are Seeing Trump's praises. So it's just.

It's a very weird time to say the least.

Sam: 00:03:14

Absolutely. I would love to say that we here in Australia were immune, except that in. Since Trump was elected, we've had.

We have an election coming up in like six weeks and yeah, we need it. One of them is nicknamed Timu Trump. It's like super funny in one sense.

By the time this comes out, the election will have happened and we will know whether he is our prime minister. And so this episode maybe will not date super well if he does.

We have like ads going around of certain political parties, like going like, make Australia great again. And we're like. Is kind of the approach, but it is, it is. What a time to be alive. I think is kind of the, the theme.

Brandon: 00:04:07

Yeah. It is absolutely insane to me how I thought Trump would be like a, a warning sign to a lot of countries.

And like, for some countries they're just like, I can do that. And like, nationalism is like on the rise. And I'm just like, Paul saw how that went, right? Yeah. And then here we are again. So I. Not one to talk. So.

Yeah. Yep.

Sam: 00:04:29

Okay. I feel like we could completely derail the whole episode if we keep talking about politics.

So, yeah, I like to start these episodes with a super duper vague question that typically just like allows you to choose where you would like to start. So where does your story start?

Brandon: 00:04:49

Oh, God. Birth. Question mark. That's too long ago.

Sam: 00:04:53

I have had some people start it well before that, so.

Brandon: 00:04:56

Oh, my God.

The very first thing that comes to mind in this moment is a moment under the stars where I was six or seven years old and my dad just swatted me pretty damn good with a belt a few times. And I'm lying under the stars. And I'm raised in evangelicalism. My mom is the children's pastor. My dad is on the worship team.

I'm like in church, I want to say, more often than I'm not, but I'm also dramatic, so I know that's not the case, but it was a lot. And I remember looking up at the stars and thinking, whoever made that has to be very powerful.

And I felt very powerless in that moment as a six or seven year old, as one does. And I remember praying a silly prayer of whoever that being was, of that.

That catchphrase I apparently had absorbed of come into my heart and make me powerful. So that. And.

And in that moment I started to pray for my mom to have a baby boy so that my parents would be distracted with them and they'd leave me alone. And I marched into my parents and I was like, the Bible says if you believe something and you pray, it happens.

And just so you know, I prayed for a baby brother and it's coming. Oh.

Sam: 00:06:23

I mean, like, I just love, I love the mixture of like, the purity of like a 6, 7, a 7 year old who thinks that it's that simple, but also like there's nothing like fundamental religion to bring out an existential crisis for a 7 year old.

Brandon: 00:06:41

And even back then, just petty as like, just like you spanked me. I'm praying for a kid that's gonna annoy the out of you. Like.

Sam: 00:06:51

I feel like that's probably a very good setup for your personality from everything that I've read in your book. I feel like that's a really good setup for some context, obviously. Evangelicalism is a very broad word. What flavor of Christianity were you in?

Brandon: 00:07:12

Oh my God. I am one of the few people I know that says flavor. And it's, it's absolute. That makes me so happy. The flavor Christianity. I am not. I'm not.

I don't consider myself a Christian anymore.

But the flavor I was raised in was non denominational charismatic, which in my world now looking back on it feels like the entrepreneurs of Christianity. You know, like I'm the startup, like tech company that's flashy and hired all the young people to build me things so I can make a shit ton of money.

Like, absolutely. So it does feel like the tech startup of ministry.

Sam: 00:07:52

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:07:52

d, who had the big debacle in: 2006

And so I grew up in Colorado Springs, which is kind of like growing up, there was a bragging point, which is so gross now, but like there was a bragging point that we'd call ourselves the evangelical Mecca of the world. So it's like where Focus on the Families Hub was. It's where Compassion International's hub was.

I used to be a journalist for a local newspaper and did a lot of research about this. So that's a whole other podcast.

But in short, like the culture of Color springs in the 80s significantly shifted and hundreds of parachurch organizations and nonprofits religiously affiliated, specifically that evangelical flavor. It's also some nationalism now. Like reflecting back on it. I wouldn't say some.

It is like praying for the Kingdom and wanting Christian leaders in power to make women not have abortions and get that Muslim out of here. I've also been watching a lot of White Lotus, so I apologize in advance. So just, like, really terrible things, like a lot of Islamophobia. Yeah.

A lot of sensationalism. Like, we had flaggers. So we had some flaggers in the background. Background. But we didn't have snakes. Like, that's the flavor I like to put it at.

We spoke tongues, we had flaggers, we didn't have snakes. So we were pretty charismatic. But not. Not, you know, tastefully charismatic. Would. How. Is.

How I'd maybe say it branding, which I make a joke about often in my book. Like, we found. Branded it quite right. So, yeah, that was my upbringing. Was that flavor of evangelicalism.

Sam: 00:09:48

Okay. Now, I. I want to make a note here for people who have not read your book is that I suspect this sess going to be. We'll talk about some heavy.

And we'll do it in a really funny way, because, like, that's kind of.

Brandon: 00:10:03

I love making fun of trauma. Yeah. Yes.

Sam: 00:10:05

And I think that's why I loved your book so much, because I've read a lot of memoirs and I probably should have known from your episode with Maggie, but also from the byline in the. In the title of the book, in the use of the word sassy. But I have not met read a memoir quite like yours in that.

Brandon: 00:10:26

I hope that's a good thing.

Sam: 00:10:27

Yes, absolutely. I mean, it is for me, because I feel like I need humor, like I need oxygen.

So to be able to read a book that, like, uses sass and sarcasm and just, like, this is absolutely batshit crazy. And we're gonna call it out and just call it what it is, but also be real and honest and raw and is, like the perfect combo. So I just. I love it and.

But I want to make it for people maybe don't use humor who might go, why are they laughing? Well, we're laughing insane. But we're also laughing because we're both traumatized and we need.

Brandon: 00:11:08

Exactly. Trauma made us funny. Yes, exactly.

Sam: 00:11:13

Okay, so I know the answer to this, but I'm sure people are wondering, did you get the baby brother?

Brandon: 00:11:19

I did. I absolutely did. I walked into. My mom said, you're having a baby, and, like, had no concept of how children happen.

Sam: 00:11:28

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:11:29

My dad did a very terrible job of explaining it as a junior in high school. That's a whole nother episode in itself around purity culture. But, yeah, I did.

And I, like, I Remember the first time that she went to get an ultrasound to figure out what sex the kid was, the fetus. And, like, I just was so upset. I was so mad. I was just like, I told you it's a boy, and you don't believe me. And I prayed to God, and we believe in.

I wouldn't say a religion, but, like, we believe that if you pray, it happens. And I prayed and it's happening. So why don't you trust me? Like, I'm crying in the Kaiser Permanente parking lot. Like, why don't you believe me? Yeah.

And he did drive them crazy. He's also a fellow queer. And we just thank God.

More than driving my parents crazy, I'm so thankful for him because I forget that other people, especially I forget other queer people are like, the only queer person in their family. I forget that's an experience very common. And I'm just like, God, that sounds horrible.

Sam: 00:12:29

It is. It is horrible.

Brandon: 00:12:32

It is horrible.

Sam: 00:12:35

Yeah. But okay, it's fine. I'm. I'm used to being the prayed harder of my family. This is not fun. But okay, what.

What impact did that, like, as a recovering you. You believed something wholeheartedly. It happened. Like, are you now Prophet Brandon?

Brandon: 00:13:05

That's what they told me. I like, I don't know, 100.

I remember my flavor Christian was also, like, the baby dedications where it's not baby baptism, because that's what those Catholics do.

Sam: 00:13:19

I love the dipping out of the Southern accent. It's so fun, which is.

Brandon: 00:13:23

I do this in my. In my audiobook. P.S. every pastor is from the South. For some reason, I didn't grow up in the South. My pastor was not Southern.

I did go to Bible school in the south, and I think I just, like, channeled that. Anyway, so the question was Prophet Brandon.

Yeah, but the pastor held me up before the whole congregation, put oil in my head and declared, like, a prophetic word that was just like, this isn't someone who knows the will of God, but proclaims and God moves on his behalf like a world shaper. Like, my parents have it recorded and everything. And I'm just like, I wonder what you're thinking now. Maybe God is moving you to not be a bigot.

Sam: 00:14:11

Fingers crossed.

Brandon: 00:14:14

So, yeah, like, that was definitely, like, my experience growing up. So was like, oh, if brain and praise.

So later I mentioned this in the story, but, like, I kind of got passed around both in my smaller church I grew up in and then also my mega church of, like, if Brandon prays for you to get. Have a baby. You're gonna have a baby. So it was like this, like, kind of like aphrodisiacs, like, situation where I got pet. Like, I.

My mom would be like, hey, can you pray for so and so. And they bring me over to the house and I pray for the. The. The. The wife of the straight couple.

And I want to say at least three families ended up having kids after I prayed for them. So I don't know what to make.

Sam: 00:14:56

I was gonna say, how do you make sense of that now?

Brandon: 00:14:59

You know, it is complicated. I. I do.

This is kind of spoiling the ending of the book, but I think maybe this is a level of consent is like, I do believe in something beyond me and I don't defend it anymore. You know, like, it's like, if that doesn't serve you, then believe something else. But for me, it. It serves me.

And I think about these moments where I did pray for something and some powerful things happened. And I hold at the same time of, like, I also prayed for other things and things did not happen. And so maybe this is just luck. Maybe it is.

But I do know that in some really painful moments, even when the church was persecuting me, when my family was being terrible to me, in the midst of me coming out, like, I had this steadying voice internally that would carry me through that I ended up returning to. Like, for a while I was just like, that. Like, that place has hurt me and everything with it.

But then there was kind of this thing of like, God, what did I. It felt like I was letting them steal the cake. Like, it was this phrase that came to mind. I was just like, no, they stole already so much.

I'm not letting them steal this too. And so, like, there was this kind of return of faith that looks very different now.

Like I said, I wouldn't consider myself a Christian, but there is like, my boyfriend I went to. And you'll see that if you end up listening to the book or reading the book, like that happens. Like, I pray for.

You know, I saw these quote unquote miracles as a kid would have some my flavor Christian would call words of knowledge. Like, where it's like, I'm getting a download from God about your bullshit. You're seeing and I'm gonna tell you about it. And actually that wasn't.

That's so interesting because actually it wasn't me even back then. It was like, I'm like, you know, a missionary in Berlin and I'm getting a download. But, like, I would ask Like, God, who do you see them as?

And so, like, I'm talking to a stranger and I'm just like, do you just understand, like, how deeply loved you are? I really feel like you're an authentic, like. And I would. It would be more positive things.

So even in the throes of my evangelical bullshittery, there was this like, thing of like, I can't do the whole hellfire and brimstone. Like, it was still so hard to do, which I'm grateful for. Cause I think it made me a little bit less problematic.

I have maybe less repentance to do with my, you know, I go as a youth pastor, I was a missionary. And like, I reflect back and I'm like, there some things I. I wish I wouldn't have done.

And I know I caused harm being a part of a system that caused harm. And I'm very sad that I did that regardless of my intentions, because I do think I had.

I had good intentions, but regardless of my intentions, caused harm.

Sam: 00:17:43

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:17:44

And like, I don't excuse that and would love to make amends where I need to, but thank God or whoever, Satan, the higher self, that like, I. There was a check even in myself of like, okay, I'm not going to tell someone they're going to hell. I refuse.

But there are things like, you know, I prayed for a woman, she lost a leg. And I was like, God tells me to. The Bible tells me to pray for people and they'll get a miracle.

So I'm like picking her out of her wheelchair, trying to believe that God will heal her. And she doesn't get healed and instead is weeping in my arms. And I'm just like, God, like, I'm causing her so much pain. What am I doing?

So, like, I have that story. I have stories of this and this fertility thing when I was a kid. I've got hearing about people and what I think is God telling me, like, about them.

And then, you know, like, then my brother has a severe accident and nothing's happening. So it's so convoluted and mixed. And that was my biggest tension point. That's what I wrestle with.

But yeah, like, my boyfriend I went to on a trip recently and I didn't realize this, but something that I do, I. I am grateful. Grateful for or that is nice. Something that is nice about evangelicalism is like just praying and kind of like, okay, I can leave that.

And you don't think about it anymore. It's like, God's supposed to take care of that. So I'm not gonna waste my time and energy thinking about that. And this trip.

There's so much going wrong. And I could. No matter how hard I was trying, like, things just kept popping up. And it was just such a experience.

And so another thing came up where there to be road closure. And we're going to have to turn around and like, drive another five hours back the way we came. And I remember feeling like, God, I wish I could.

I wish I could pray and like, resonating with like. I don't know what I think about prayer. And there was like a beautiful awakening moment where it's just like looking up these stars again. The stars.

And I have this thing and I've never been. I'm not an alcoholic, but I've gone to some open meetings and I have family members who are alcoholics.

And so, like, I'm familiar with the serenity prayer. And it hit home in a new way of like, oh, man, there are things I have control over. Yeah, but there are some things I can't do about.

And like, me being so furious about it isn't going to necessarily change anything. It's a delicate line because, you know, I think people feel powerless. And what's going on with the United States today with everything going on.

And so there is a tension. But, like, that's why the third. The.

The key prayer to the serenity prayers, the wisdom to know what I can do and what I can't do, has been something that's returned to me. So I think my prayer life is not anything like what it used to be when I was younger.

But I do have a centering that still can happen of like when I pray, still myself and have this internal reaching beyond me to. Yeah, I think that's probably the end of it. But it's. I don't think that it's a. It's the Christian God.

Sam: 00:20:50

Who was that God to you growing up? Like, who was he?

Brandon: 00:20:55

Yeah, I mean, very personable. Like, I came from that flavor Christianity. Just like, we're not about religion. It's relationship. And that phrase is so. Oh, God, I wish, I wish.

But it's mainly my. My family and I do have some friends that are still. They work in ministry. So I.

And we've navigated some beautiful friendships, some complicated friendships, some recently deteriorating friendships. But that idea of friendship, relationship, not religion was very much embedded into what I believed. And so, like, you know, I was raised in it.

And then I would say in my teenage years, I hook, line and sinker deeply fell in love with this Concept of God maybe because I'm a homosexual. And the idea of like, you know, loving a masc and energy was really comforting.

But like, yeah, like those songs about like I wanna sit at your feet, like that whole one, I'm just like, oh, I can do this. I got that. And so like there's this deep personal. Yeah, like I would say relationships.

So that's another thing of why it's hard to let that things go is just like, maybe it was a like Freudian psychology of like my higher self speaking to me. My, my super ego, you know, like that has been developed and like was really speaking to me in those moments.

But like, you know, I at 17 really felt like this personal relationship with God. And that's why like I.

Dealing with lack of answer to prayer, dealing with problems inside of my religion, dealing with my sexuality, dealing with inconsistencies in the Bible did cause a true panic because this, not just belief system, not just community, but like this relationship that produced a lot of safety. One thing that I, in the last three, four years I've come to realize is attached to safety.

This, this being that gave me confidence and self assuredness was gone.

And so like in the last three, four years there's been this thing of like, oh man, so many other people, you know, they're going through their teenage years or like, you know, early preteens, even a little bit before that, like fifth grade, they're developing this self confidence that's typically like, okay, I do a sport and I be, feel competent. I become the class clown and I feel competent.

Like we take on these roles and we start to exercise these muscles and we get strong in certain things, whatever that may be, academics, friendship, whatever it may be, on these roles. And like there's this confidence comes around like, oh, I've got, I've got some history with this. I know what I'm doing.

And mine, because I was very awkward and very scared, socially anxious, very shy as a kid. And you know, this moment when I was 17 really shifted things for me where it's just like, okay, I can trust this being beyond me.

And you know, became very extroverted and was like this diehard belief of God will take care of me. And so like there is this confidence and identity that was intimately connected and integrated into the idea of.

In that day I would use the language God or Jesus, the God of the Bible. And so to deconstruct was not just deconstructing, you know, my community or my ideas of the afterlife a big thing for me. Was who am I without this?

Yeah, so. Yeah.

Sam: 00:24:39

And so, I mean, people have probably already worked it out.

Brandon: 00:24:43

Not.

Sam: 00:24:44

Not straight. Right.

So, like, there is this journey of, like, coming to a place of acceptance and peace and affirmation with your sexuality that is sort of, like, weaved throughout the whole book. But I'm curious what. Quite early on, what.

What was it like for you in terms of what you thought God said about you and your sexuality versus what you were hearing from your church space and your family space? And was that space kind of the. We don't. We don't talk about those people, or we just talk atrociously from the stage about those people?

Brandon: 00:25:31

Great question. So the church. That one's easy. I mean, because Ted Haggard was my pastor. So, like, yeah, it would either be silent or, I mean, like, viscerally.

I saw if. And I. I. I didn't want to. This is also another thing that I don't know if it's.

I do talk about this in the book of, like, this tension of, like, what you want versus what God wants, which often is, like, in opposition. Like, so the idea of a big journey of mine is befriending my wants and my heart and my body.

Because for so long, there was like, if my body or heart wants something, I'm imagining that God wants the opposite. And that was the flavor of Christianity that I had, too, is just like the martyr complex of I need to change the world. It's not about me.

It's about the world. It's about God. It's about his name. It's about, you know, he's what's good. I'm just a vessel, you know, all that type of language. And my church was.

Was quite silent about around LGBTQ stuff. I.

Apparently Ted did share sermons from the pulpit, but, like, I think, like, in contrast of what my memory and even looking at recordings because, you know, the news gobbled it up where they grabbed. They would grab a splice from his sermon, and we were a megachurch. So of course we recorded it, and of course, course we put it online.

Even in the early: 2000

Like, you know, his would be like, you know, God made us to complement each other, male, man and woman. And it's bad. It's still toxic, and it's still painful to deconstruct. And honestly, maybe harder because, like, there's a lot of good.

Good quote unquote, or nice maybe is the better term. There's nice language around it. Like again, yeah, marketing. How do you market being a bigot? You know?

And so like it is, it was marketed very well of like, you know, women were made for this, men were made for that. And these are, you know, that whole complementarianism that's rooted in purity culture, which is be rooted in misogyny. Yeah.

But it's all, it's all tied together in a really messy knot and. But there was a message that came loud and clear from a church and also my family. My dad, he is a closeted bisexual.

Like he shared things with me like that he's like, yeah, when I smoked weed, you know, I'd make out with my friend, but that's not who I am. That's what weed does. It opens up you to a spirit of things. And I'm just like, I've smoked weed and I've never want to make out with a girl.

But also like, it's like a spectrum, you know, Like I have friends that like, they get drunk, there's like, oh my God, I want to make out with a straight girl. You know, like doesn't mean necessarily want one as a partner or like a sexual partner.

And so like my family was very rooted in gender norms, very homophobic. I remember watching Big Daddy, which is such a, like it actually kind of cute film for Adam Sandler.

Sam: 00:28:33

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:28:35

And, and the, what were they? The.

Sam: 00:28:38

I mean, the kid in it is cute as.

Brandon: 00:28:40

Yeah. Attacking Cody from life. Yeah. So cute. Like he's like, I think like eight in the film and just such a cute little thing. And there's just a gay couple.

They never kiss, they never do anything. And like I just remember viscerally where my dad was just like, oh, it's such a good movie. They had to ruin it with that.

You know, as a Christian, I did receive that message.

When it came to that still voice, it is interesting because there's some conflict there and that's just like, man, maybe it was just my consciousness and like internalized messages because there was a thing of like, this isn't quote unquote best. I had this message of like, nothing's good or bad. Yeah, it was just really interesting. Like as a kid, I remember reading this verse. It's so nice.

I, I, I proud of the fact that I can't give you a book, chapter, verse. It's so nice.

Sam: 00:29:28

It's so nice when you forget.

Brandon: 00:29:31

It's so good. Yeah, I Used to be able to. But it's. It's a. It's a letter from Paul. I can tell you that that Bible school didn't go away, unfortunately.

But Paul wrote at some point the.

Sam: 00:29:46

Yeah, we hate Paul. Paul is the villain of the Bible. We've really hateful.

Brandon: 00:29:51

Just such a. He. He said everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial.

I want to say it's one of the Corinthians based off of the theme and, like, that verse, I ran with it. I was just like, oh, there's no good and evil anymore. It's just about like, is this beneficial?

And so, like, as a young, I would identify as a convert of, like, yeah, I was raised in church, but now I really believe, like, 17 years old, pumped up on testosterone, and just like. Like, I would feel convicted to use that term around, like, playing video games alone. Because I'm like, that doesn't benefit the world.

I'm here to change the world. Don't waste your life very. Oh, God, what's that band? This is your life. Are you who you. Switch back. Switch.

Sam: 00:30:39

Yes. Switch for it.

Brandon: 00:30:42

Switch foot.

Sam: 00:30:43

Switch foot. Yes. Close again. Forgetting is nice.

Brandon: 00:30:48

It's great.

And just like, feeling that guilt, but then not feeling guilt about watching a rated R film with friends when, you know, my Christian friends would be like, oh, my God. Yeah, so. And, you know, like, when I was coming to respect sexuality or really was around, like. Like teasing it out.

And that's how I relate to it now is, like, around specifically as a closeted kid. I watched and I talk about this in the book, like, so much porn. Like, so much porn. And, like, to this day, like, I don't.

Like, I still hold to the fact of, like, you know, consuming hours of porn a day isn't a helpful choice. And I did feel that conviction for sure of just like, man, this isn't. I don't think this is good. I think there's a.

like, now, you know, this is: 2020

Like, there's a lot of things that I. I will own here of, like, I can look at that and be like, I don't. I never really felt convicted about love for the same sex. And even, like.

And I do wrestle with the. The sexual part where I had to find a reason why it was bad. I was just like, good sus in the Bible's bad. So there has to be, like, a.

A Practical reason why it's bad. Like, you know, maybe I need to make babies. Maybe that's the problem.

Or like, you know, I just needed to find something to make it bad and register it. And now I don't. Like, you know, I, I'm so grateful for my queerness because my queerness caused me to question, to ask important questions.

Important questions. Like, why are we okay that there was a God that commanded genocide?

Sam: 00:32:27

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:32:28

Why are we okay with saying that women are built to never be in leadership and rate child rear and.

Sam: 00:32:37

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:32:37

Be treated more like property?

And according to this text, like, that's like, when we look at it like, you know, when a, A woman would be murdered in especially the Old Testament, you, the, the, the, the payout you'd have to pay would be the same amount as a slave. I think it was like again, forgetting stuff, but like 20 things of silver, whatever.

Or like, I think about the fact of, like, you know, if there was a virgin woman and she was attacked and a man essayed her, then as long as he paid a dowry to the father, you know, like, those questions are like, wait, what?

Sam: 00:33:21

Because it was more offensive to her father than to the woman that it happened to.

Brandon: 00:33:26

Yeah. And so just like, really sitting with, like, asking those important questions. Asking important questions.

Like, you know, why is this friend of mine who is an atheist who loves people way better than I do?

Sam: 00:33:42

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:33:43

Why is he quote unquote going to hell? And I'm, I'm not like those big. I, I don't think I would have asked those questions if it wasn't for my queerness.

I resented my queerness for a long time because I felt like this one asterisk to me thriving in evangelicalism. I'm white, I'm cis, I'm a man. I have a decent personality where it's just like. But malleable enough where I want to make people happy.

So it's like, you know, you get a powerful megachurch leader. Like, I flourished as a youth pastor, flourished as a worship leader. It really, like, with who I am as a human being, it, it really lines up well.

And if it wasn't for my queerness, it would have maybe been signed seal delivered to steal language from our, from my past.

But, and for that reason, I hated my queerness for so long, but now I'm so, so grateful because it taught me so much and it refused to let me go, obviously. And, and, and for that reason and for me to like, I just, I'm a person that's. I've. I'VE never been good at faking.

That's another thing that probably was a character flaw maybe wouldn't help me out, but I just, I couldn't. I. It was so hard for me to be inauthentic. So like, with me, I.

I had to believe that I was like cured of my homosexual same sex attraction to like really like move forward with that. And you know, like, I dated a woman for a while. She knew that I like, liked men. She was bisexual, so she was fine with it.

She's like, everyone's beautiful. Of course you're attracted to men and women. And I'm just like, yeah, mainly men. But so, but like it really did really taught me a lot.

And now I not only befriend that part of me, but really cherish that part of me, me.

Sam: 00:35:43

So I think some people who don't particularly understand, I guess, or who have never had to experience the. It themselves, that journey of having to like, you know, I know this is also probably fairly churchy language.

Like wrestle with, like, wrestle with your queerness and, and somehow like make it okay and not hate an inherent part of you is like exhausting for starters. Like, like suppression on any level is like literal internal torture. And there is actually a section in your book and it's.

I think this is the first time that I've actually ever quoted someone's book in a podcast, so.

Brandon: 00:36:25

First time.

Sam: 00:36:27

And it's probably, it's one of the few sections in the book where it's like this, like, this is a section that's not funny. It's not funny at all. But I read, I read it and I was like, well, that hit home and, and not in a good way. Like, you'll get to it.

I'm sure as soon as I start to read it, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. But once I finish reading it, I want, I want to ask what that suppression journey was like for you and the impact that it had.

So it says, when Christians use the words like choice and lifestyle, it's torture.

It's torture because I think of these moments, the moments where I screamed into the night through tears, where I came to the altar on bruised knees, where I pleaded to God to make me straight because I desperately didn't want to be gay. Anything but gay. Anything but that unspeakable word. That unforgivable sin, that hated sin. Anything but that.

And I read it and I like, it was like my heart was in my seat stomach and I was like, oh my gosh, it Like I've never felt so sad for you and heartbroken for you, but also like heartbroken form like my 16, 17 year old self as well at the same. It was just a weird mixture of emotions. But I would love to hear from you what, what impact.

Because you know, we know that suppression doesn't just impact us typically emotionally, it impacts us physically, it impacts us socially. What impact did that have on you? I took a heavy tit for me.

Brandon: 00:38:09

No, that's good. Yeah, I mean that is the, I mean you read the book like to your point, like I, I love humor but also like yeah, heavy.

I think one of the reasons why that relationship was something beyond me that I did believe loved me period was so critical to my self conscious, to my self confidence and carried me for a very long time.

And why deconstructing was very detrimental to my psyche for a bit was because up until that point there is this terrifying belief that if I get caught it'll be really bad. And it did. You know, my, some of my worst nightmares came true. My dad caught me and it was terrible.

Like very much like pray the gay away moment like in the closet of a prayer house. Which the irony on that is just I, I wish I came up with that like as a writer, but it just happened. So.

Yeah, but like I was so terrified for it to be found out. So like I just was so. I think that's one of the reasons why I was so shy.

It was one of the reasons why I was so like kind of an observer of humans rather than a participant because very reactive of like how do people need to like, it's, it's a trauma response.

But like I, but I am grateful for like incredibly empathetic of like how am I like hyper aware of how I am affecting other people, how my body presence in this space is affecting other people and how I need to do micro changes to cater and make other people feel safe. So dropping my voice around guys, not having my hands on my hips, choosing to do sports even though at the time I didn't like them.

Super self conscious of the fact that I like singing and doing theater, like while involved, needing to feel like I don't like don't care too much. But I also am realizing that's like also a millennial experience of like it wasn't cool to care too much.

Just like very hyper aware of how showing up in a space, being anxious all the time. And so yeah, like when there was this belief of like I am loved period, like I did truly hook line Sinker. That. That message. It did.

I think the reason it changed me is just like such a stupid moment too. I remember this. So visualizing this dumb guys group and this like porn addict coach was like, the belt of truth keeps your pants on.

Just tell the truth and it'll keep your pants on. And again, hook, lion, Sinker. I would tattle on myself all the time and just be blazingly truth, truthful.

So, you know, like, my parents were ashamed of me when I was a kid with me being gay. And they wanted me to like, that's not you. That's not who you are. You're just experimenting. Like, anything for them to confront the truth. Like, big.

Like my parents, especially my mom, her coping skills, denial, like, so she's so good at that coping skill and reframing those two are just. And I think evangelicalism actually empowers us to live in denial. But that's another podcast problem. And.

But like, when I went to Bible school, I had this mentality of like, I'm not gonna lie, I'm very honest about at that point, I would have said my past in quotation marks, my struggles in quotation marks. And so like, there was this like, reforming of identity in multiple areas of my life where I felt anytime I could be authentic, I flourished.

And so I think it's one of the reasons why I hate Colorado Springs is that I never was able to quite show up as myself and be proud of that person because of the culture of Colorado Springs, because of the beliefs of my parents. You know, like, small talk in Colorado Springs is like, what church do you go to? Like, second question.

So, like, I'm so grateful to be in a queer city, a big city with lots of different people, you know, even in those in Texas. And even though I was in a Bible school, I was very proud of how I showed up in that space.

For the most part of, like, yeah, like, I would have used the language, same sex attraction. But I didn't hide that from anyone. And I think it spared me a lot.

Like, I know people that repressed it and did some pretty bad things, you know, including assault. Like, there were a number of kids at my school, that Bible school, a lot of us. I would, I would, I would.

I would venture to say at least 20 of the kids I went to school with were closeted queers and repressed it. And then they assaulted someone because they.

They had to do it in a secret way, in a way where they would feel safe and hurt someone else in the process.

Sam: 00:43:29

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:43:30

So to your point, like, repression does a number on us. For Ted, it did. You know, to this day, he. He lost everything. He started up another church. But, like, you know, that's also in the book.

I attended his new church. We'd meet one on one and how he would relate to me. Like, he never did anything, but there are certain questions he asked.

I'm just like, man, you're still repressing. And later on, he'd lose his second church too. So it's just like, yeah, to your point, it does do a number for me. It was my psyche for others.

Like, they're, they're how they show up physically in the world. Like, to your point, the choices that they make.

But for me, it was definitely around confidence and personality and authenticity and fear and self hatred. And when I deconstructed, I had to do a lot of work with God, which is interesting, you know, like, I'm like, I don't believe in you.

And then would have these like, really sweet moments of something and so, or someone that really came through for me. There was a moment in Shasta, California, just floating in the water where I really, deeply believe that God was telling me, like, I love your love.

At the time, like, for my partner, which, it was a toxic relationship, but, like, I don't, I don't. Like, he, he was very narcissistic. It was a bad relationship, but, like, how I loved.

Like, I, I remember thinking, like, I want to love like Jesus loves in a relationship. Which now I have some asterisks on, you know, like, in a relationship. Like, yeah, that's probably not the best way to show up.

It's not the best way to show up a sacrificial martyr complex. But like, I remember just this, this pride in myself of, like, no, I.

I love deeply and I've like, I think I've reigned some of that in and created some boundaries to keep myself safe. And I'm really proud of that too now. But anyway, yeah, that. To answer, long winded answer to your question.

Sam: 00:45:43

I love long winded answers. They're my favorites, my favorite card. But I mean, that ability, I mean, I think.

I think most queer people who grow up in unsafe spaces just learn this innate sense to be a chameleon, essentially, to be whoever you need to be to keep you safe in that situation. But I'm wondering if that almost benefited you whilst you were doing the Lord's work as a missionary. Like, did that benefit you in. In it?

I guess in a way that you could compartmentalize and cope with that Cognitive dissonance whilst you're out doing missionary work. Because like that's the goal when you're in the church, is to be that person.

Brandon: 00:46:28

Yeah, you know, it's, it's so funny because I, I again, that stupid little weird ass message of belt of truth. Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah really did a number on me. So a couple things.

One was I, I had a firm belief my flavor of Christianity, if you pray hard enough, you know, I saw babies born. Yeah, yeah, you were like a prophet.

Sam: 00:46:54

Pass the parcel, basically.

Brandon: 00:46:57

I don't know.

Sam: 00:46:57

You have pass, do you have past the parcel in America?

Brandon: 00:47:00

Oh my God. Pass the parcel.

Sam: 00:47:03

Oh yeah. So we have this game. Okay, this is the weirdest derail I've ever had. No, I love this.

We have this game in Australia at kids parties where like the typically the parent of the birthday child creates like this giant.

It's typically quite big and it's like wrapped in newspaper or different papers and each layer there is like a little prize or like food or like random novelty gift and you pass, you sitting in a circle and you pass it around to music and when the music stops, the person who's holding the parcel gets to unwrap it. Which like, as a six year old is so much fun.

But like hearing you talk about being passed around to like couple to couple, I was like, it's like past, there's like past Brandon the prophet child around like that's the imagery that I had in my head.

Brandon: 00:47:55

That's amazing. Way better than pass around the aphrodisiac. I like that. It's a little bit cuter. Yeah, so cute.

Yeah, like, so there was a, this thing of like if I believe hard enough, if I pray hard enough. So like I said, my empathy probably is a queer person. That helped keep me safe.

Which, another side note, I'm just like, is this why straight CIS white men are just oblivious? They haven't had to use empathy to keep themselves safe a day in their life. Yeah, I, I'm gonna, I won't digress on that one.

But, but like there was this belief of like I can, I can do that. But. Oh. What I was gonna say is that empathy kept me safe from doing more problematic things than most.

But there, there are a handful that I am not proud of and this is one of them. As a missionary in Berlin, we do street evangelism. So we were all performing artists.

We had actors, dancers, musicians, and we do like little, they were called human videos. Or like we do hip hop dancing or like things that Would draw a crowd.

And as soon as there's a crowd, someone grab a microphone and then either share testimony or they would do. They'd preach the gospel. Yeah, well, I don't like the phrase, but that's what it was. And so I.

The younger, like the, the newer missionaries and I was like a newer one typically would do just the. The testimonial. And then like, the pastor would do like the, the gospel.

And on two occasions I can remember I was in Alexander Plots and said that Jesus had saved me from my homosexuality and that he could save you too. And I just hope to God that there wasn't a queer person in earshot when I said those things on a microphone. So, like. But I did believe that. I did.

I did. And you know, like, I equated my sexuality just with porn. You know, it was the only outlet that I had. And so I stopped looking at porn.

So obviously I'm no longer gay because I'm not doing anything gay. But now reflecting back on it as I'm preaching on this microphone that God can say food from that, you know, we go back to our flat.

We're sharing one flat with one, two, three, like nine guys.

And I'm like, crawling into the same bed as one of my friends and we're watching friends and like, he's a straight dude, but he like, felt so comfortable around me and like, would cuddle up next to me and I am just gobbling that up. I'm just like, this feels so good. And like, it's like, hello. Like, sure. It's like, it. It's not this in your mind.

Like, I equated queerness with like, depravity, sexual depravity and pervertedness and being a pervert and like all these like, internalized messages. And I'm just like, I'm just being a good friend that like, we just are very comfortable with each other.

Sam: 00:51:14

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:51:15

Never mind the fact that, like, I am like buzzing inside as it's happening. And so like reflecting back on it now.

It's just at the time, I think rather than compartmentalizing, it was probably more suppression was my coping skill. Just like. And also denial. I, you know, I am a son of my mother. Inherited gear or curse, depending on how.

Sam: 00:51:40

You look at it.

Brandon: 00:51:41

Both. And. And like, I just, I did, but I did. I truly believe. I just like, well, I'm not. And looking at gay porn, I'm not going off having sex with people.

There was a time when I was same like, literally could have happened the next week I was in. It's called Tear Garden. And Berlin, like, as we know, is like known for its sexual frivolity.

And so like I, I didn't know this at the time though, at all. I was oblivious. And I'm in Tear Garden, which is kind of like Central park of Berlin. It's huge.

And me being the cute, oblivious, like 22, 23 year old, just with my little Bible in my notebook, wanting to get a little quiet time with Jesus. I'm walking through this forest, I notice these little markings on trees and I follow them and I end up by this little river.

And I'm sitting there and I just notice some men loitering. Like there's someone in leather, there's someone with like a hat, like a big like, now I know it's, it's a Dom hat.

Yeah, like all these like kind of odd outfits for being in the middle of the woods. And also just no intention or no purpose.

They're just like casually stepping aside, stepping around and looking at each other and I'm like, what the is happening? But I get, I started to buzz, you know, like I would with my friend. And I'm like, aware.

It's so funny because like now it's like, man, I'd find things like this all the time. There'd be this buzz of like I could sense drawn to like queerness. And, and this guy approaches me, he's just like, do you make sex with men?

And like was soliciting me for sex and. And I just remember being so terrified, but so wanting to participate in the exact same time. And yet, you know, I got up there and, and preached.

So like, I think that what we do is inside of Christianity.

Christianity is again branding of like there have been number of messages that have been perpetuated or created from pastors and institutions that cope or coerce or reframe is maybe the better term of internal or external experiences. And so like a term, a way of relating to this, like, oh, I want this.

The things that would immediately come to mind are, this is my thorn in my flesh, like Paul had. I immediately went to that. I went with, you know, we're born in a sinful world.

Yeah, all gonna struggle, you know, and so like I could separate, I guess, to your point. Yeah, there was a level of compartmentalizing of like, that's not me. That's, that's, that's sin.

Sam: 00:54:27

Yeah.

Brandon: 00:54:28

And so I, yeah, I, I think there was repression. It was, it was suppression, denial, and compartmentalizing of like, that's not me. Yeah, so. Because I did. I would be honest though. Like, I came back.

I literally came back to that nine man flat and said I just came from the woods and I was asked for sex and I really wanted to have sex. Sex. Like. And I would just say that you're like. Because the culture of Christianity also was part of.

Is kind of like to tattle on yourself, you know, like.

Sam: 00:55:06

Yeah, it's excessive vulnerability, like to a. To a fault. Yeah.

Brandon: 00:55:11

It's so interesting because, you know, like, I am now in my. I just started my master's of social work because I want to be a therapist.

And it's something I've wrestled with four years for that reason specifically was I saw how vulnerability can be used in such. It. It is a powerful thing and. But can be used for good or for evil to. Rather than good or for evil to harm or to. To help someone flourish.

And I, I waited so long because I had. I re.

I doubted my motives for so long of like, oh, I, you know, the culture I come from is we'd get off on people telling their secrets and being vulnerable. And I don't want to go into a profession where that's my deeper motive.

Like, I doubted myself and until I could really come to terms with like, no like people. That is their journey. And if they chew, they have agency to reveal as much or as little to me as possible, including in a position that they can.

Maybe there's a power dynamic that I need to make sure that I'm being conscientious of not abusing it and letting people to disclose themselves in their time in a. Where there is always in aid and partnership to their wellness. So. But to your point, like, yeah, it. I.

It took me a long time, a long time to really realize, like, no, I think I can do this because I was in a culture that leveraged it for. To harm and manipulate.

Sam: 00:56:51

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is like, you know, a culture of testimony in churches and the. The level of vulnerability that is expected and not. It's not.

There's so much of it that just doesn't even feel like a choice that's expected of you. Turns it into something that it was never designed to be in the place first place.

Okay, you brought up sex, so I'm gonna roll with it because you are super open about it in your book. And I was like, this guy was raised in purity culture and he is talking openly about gay sex and I am here for it. So 1.

How was it for you to put that in writing knowing that people we're gonna rate it.

Brandon: 00:57:43

Yeah. Again, that belt of truth, like, it's just. It's. I'm a four on the Enneagram, so maybe there's also something there too.

Sam: 00:57:51

Did you say Enneagram poll?

Brandon: 00:57:53

Yeah.

Sam: 00:57:54

Yes.

Brandon: 00:57:54

Are you. Yeah, of course. That makes so much. Of course. That's why we're vibing. Are you self pres.

Sam: 00:58:02

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you know what Myers Briggs you are?

Brandon: 00:58:10

I. Yes, I'm INFP or enfp. It's just like. So I do think that like INFP obviously has a deep. Like their number one driver is authenticity.

And so like I do deeper. So I have a hard time with Myers books because I relate to it more with the cognitive stacks, like from the Jungian perspective. And so if that.

If we're looking at that, I do think that I'm more infp. If we're looking at the more popular cult pop psychology of like, do I recharge with. People are alone? I do.

Like, it's so interesting because back in color springs and in certain climates I am so I like, I'm just like. And now I'm realizing, oh wait, that was just social anxiety.

Like, I actually love people and like, if I don't, if I'm not around people who I can be authentic with and like, we are authentic with like, God, I feel. I feel dry. So, yeah. How about you?

Sam: 00:59:01

I'm an infj.

Brandon: 00:59:04

Yes. The Empire.

Sam: 00:59:06

Yes. It's not always fun. I love it because like, I also love people, but I also equally don't want to spend more than.

More time with them than I absolutely have to. Which is really ironic because I work at a very paperly job. But yeah, most of the time my baseline is. Well, like some people.

Sometimes people just suck and I don't want to be around them. So. But yes. Okay, I feel like we've deviated back.

Brandon: 00:59:38

To talking about sex. Back to gay sex.

Sam: 00:59:41

Yes.

Brandon: 00:59:42

So. So again, it's so interesting because I think that I'd done so much work around just kind of like being just belligerently honest.

Sam: 00:59:51

Yeah, yeah.

Brandon: 00:59:54

So I would be like Christian. Oh God. I share this one in the book, towards the end, most of my.

My circle got quite small when I came out because so many of my friends and relationships were in ministry or ministry adjacent. And so, you know, I. Periods of my life, I think I had like three friends.

And meanwhile, like, I think about like my Bible school, like knew so many people and some of them been restored, others haven't.

But like I remember losing those people and again, this like zeal for authenticity came online of like, I'm gonna be honest from the get go because I am not losing people again. And I, I was honest with people again.

It was that framing of I genuinely believe, believed it was this sinful thing, not me and that like God, if I believed like Abraham believed, you know, like the miracle would happen.

And so like I, and I think a lot of my friends believe the same way and that I, I was not long suffering with my faith, you know, is how they would view me. And some of my friends, there's not a ton of them left. I would say maybe like too we've reconnected or like we've developed relationship.

And I think that deep down they still think that way. We've had some hard conversations around that.

But otherwise, like, if you are on board with every piece of me, there's other people in the world and I want to find my people.

So, you know, like moving here to Atlanta, I definitely leaned a little bit more in the, the gay side of me that really needed to be affirmed, you know.

But when I moved to Korea before Atlanta, I was very adamant about like at that point I identified still as I would identify as a gay Christian back then and I was very adamant about it.

And I would screen questions with people and I'd be honest and I, I, like I said, no longer identify as Christian but like lean more in that queer identity and. But like now I try to be very awesome. Like, you know, like I believe in something beyond me.

I don't, I don't share that always into everyone because a number of my friends, like religion or spirituality has done a lot of harm. And so it's just like, you know, I get it. I'm not going to sit here and defend Christians.

I, again, I'm not one, but I do believe in something beyond me.

And so I actually, it's interesting, that's when I'm a little bit more choosy on who I'm being completely vulnerable with around that, some for protection of me. But two, just like I want someone to resonate and we can resonate around that. If not, there's not really a point.

You know, it's like I'm not going to talk and nerd out about pickleball with someone who's not interested in pickleball. I'm not into pickleball. I'm just going to clarify that really quick ball.

Yeah, there's a pickleball like renaissance or something and I am not a part of it. But that's not my journey. You know, if that's. You can do that, I'd rather you not do it in public where kids can see you.

I'd rather you do it behind closed doors. You don't need to have everyone see that. Yeah.

Anyway, so, like, your questions around sex, writing about it was honestly, like, I think was a better practice for me on recognizing my relationship to sex. Sexual sexual orientation aside, my relationship to sex needed work. And I can. I can separate those two. You know, I.

In the past, it was just one jumbled mess. And I think a number of queer people do that where it's just like they. Maybe they go.

They either critique every single thing about themselves and they have a lot of internal hatred or every choice they make. And some of their choices might be bad and unhealthy, but it's a lot aren't. And you being queer is not bad.

And then on the other side, there's some people are just like, anything attached to my sexuality can't be questioned. It just is. Is. And I actually would push back on that because I've seen how sexuality is this.

I think I'm such an avatar nerd, like the last airbender. So bear with me for a second. Okay. Thank you. When Zuko is coming to terms with his firebending, and he believes it just causes harm, it burns people.

He finds these original firebenders, who are the dragons, and he recognizes that fire is also warm. It is light. And that part of fire is beautiful. But we. There has to be a relationship with it because it could burn things down.

And so for me, sexuality, for me especially, like when I was wrestling with. I'm gay, my coping skill was just keep having sex, stop thinking, have more sex. And so I do. Like, I think the.

The process of me writing about sex, I don't. That. That is one part of it that was tricky to navigate because I'm like. Like, this is. It felt a little bit more for me.

But I do know that there's a number of queer, I would say, especially men, that I think about the Velvet Rage, which is a good book. It's. It's dated to an extent, but there are some good nuggets in there on how queer people deal with shame.

And one coping skill that this therapist for gay men would notice is just like an insatiable need to have sex because it allowed them to. For me, I won't speak for. Because he says there's a lot of reasons why men would use sex to cope a lot. But mine would be like, escapism.

And it allowed me to be so present in my body that the anxiety of my brain and the shame, like, that I was feeling would go offline because my body would be buzzing so loudly. That's all that would exist for a little bit. And it felt like this reprieve. And so to make sense of that, I made sense of it through writing.

Like, now in my program as a social worker, like, I'm learning about narrative therapy.

And, like, honestly, like, my book was a huge part of that of, like, kind of building a healthy relationship with my sexuality and working with a therapist around that. So, like, writing about was.

Was really helpful to get distance and then kind of now with distance and perspective, be like, oh, wow, like, yeah, I'm attracted to men. It doesn't mean that my sexuality needs to look like, you know, like, the. The cruising scene. It doesn't have to be that.

No shame for people who want that. If it serves them, then great. But that's not what I'm looking for. Like, what do I want?

And how do I befriend my sexuality in a way that makes choices now for my future?

Because I do think that there is some plasticity to the brain of how, especially around sex and stuff like that, of, like, how do we affect that in every choice that we make?

It's one of the reasons why, like, some people who consistently watch porn have to have a mirror in order to either get hard or climax, whatever anatomy you may have and. Or, like, why people need to watch porn in order to. To. To climax. So it's.

It's like things like that, it's just like those choices aren't made overnight. It doesn't just magically happen that way.

So, like, one thing that me and my therapist worked through, I didn't write about this in the book, but it's like, retraining is weird.

It sounds like using some behavioralism around my sexuality of, like, I don't have sex with someone unless, like, I go on a date first and then my body reacts to them. Because the sex that I was participating in. Heads up. Is like, a lot of anonymous sex. Like, plenty of people. I didn't know their names.

Like, I've had, I would say, over a hundred sexual partners over the course of my life. And people were. Sometimes I didn't even see their face. And so, like, to sit with that and sit with those feelings around, like, do I. Do I want that?

Is that what I want? Is it serving me and then deciding what is serving me?

And as a queer person, I will say that is trickier because as a straight person, if you're going off having random sex with some person, you're not even seeing their face, it's easy for you to be like, oh, that one's bad. But having sex with my married partner is good. If you're like, especially in purity culture. Right.

If you like come from like, yeah, just purity culture, leave it that, that's your framework. You can easily tease out. Having anonymous sex with strangers. Bad. Having sex with my married partner. Good.

You know, and a queer person conflates a lot of things. And so rather than being morally right or wrong, because I don't think there's necessarily. I have a hard time with morally right and wrongs.

It's like, but I, I mean there are some things I'm just like, no consent, you need that like, like period. Yeah. But instead of it being morally right wrong, it's just like, no, like you're causing harm for someone is more of how I'd rather word it.

Or harm to yourself, like whatever it may be.

So like when we're looking at harm or wellness, both for yourself and for the partners that you're with, because it's a shared act, like reflecting back on your life, what do you want to look at those choices and how do you want to relate and feel to those choices? And so that I think that is a.

It's tricky in general for as we leave frameworks that say this is good, this is bad, that's a tricky thing to tease out.

I think it's extra tricky around sexuality as a queer person because I think we can get into black and white thinking because that's what we were raised with, which is black and white thinking, this is good, this is bad.

Sam: 01:09:34

Yeah, absolutely. I am sure that there are people who are listening going, okay, can we get to the coming out part? So what. So tell us a little bit about.

Because coming out is one of those experiences that I say to people who have never met someone who has come out or anything like that is, it's, it's very nuanced and complicated at times. For some people it is not all liberation and freedom. It can come immense amount of pain and grief and. And so what was that experience like for you?

Brandon: 01:10:15

Yeah, and I think also to your point, I think a lot of straights assume like it's this ta da like.

Sam: 01:10:21

Moment, like here's a cake, rainbow cake.

Brandon: 01:10:25

Like specifically just like a one time moment.

It's not, it's like I, we come out all the time, every Time I engage with a new co worker who doesn't know me, and I have a choice to say, me and my boyfriend, me and my partner. I don't talk about my partner. Like, I'm making these choices to come out every day. So, like, for people to.

I think, like, there's a straight perspective of, like, I did. You did the thing. It's like, for you, like, came out to you.

But, like, this is, like, it is perpetual, unfortunately, you know, I don't think that's fair. But it. It is what it is, and I agree with you. I think it's incredibly nuanced. For me, coming out felt forced.

Not like, because I was outed, I made the choice, but it felt like I was, like, suffocating and on fire in the closet, so to speak. Like, I had to leave. Like, yes, I opened the door, but I don't know how much of a choice, like, there was to it.

And to your point, I think I focused a ton on the grief at first. So much on the grief. Because me, the choice of coming out because I was suffocating was to honor my authenticity again.

That whole, like, I need to be true. I need to be honest. And even when I came out, like, oh, God, it was such a painful, ugly Facebook video. Like, I think it's like 19 minutes long.

It's so bad. It. I didn't. I wouldn't even just necessarily use the words gay. I said, I am in love with a man who's my partner at the time that.

That toxic one I was mentioning earlier.

And I just felt like I needed to be honest with my journey because I feel like so many people, so many books, so many, like, stories are, like, packaged and it's not nuanced. And I was just like, I. I don't know where this is going to go. Maybe I will break up with him, realize this is Eve sin and re.

Commit to this belief that I had before. Maybe I will marry this man. Like, I had no idea where the destination was. I just knew that I needed to be honest about this.

And so there was a lot of grief and a lot of pain. And any time. This is really. This is where I would strongly recommend. Queer people don't come out for a person, but for you.

I think that it's so wise to come out as a single person.

Because anytime our relationship was on the flux, like, we broke up, I don't know, 20 times and got back together again, it was not a good relationship. Anytime we were on the rocks, like, I felt like I had to make it work because it had cost me so much.

There's this grief of, like, I barely talk to my parents anymore. I had, like, financial costs because, like, I couldn't be in ministry anymore. So I had to go back to school. School and find a new career path.

And, like, all these. There's so many. Like, all I could see was, like, line item negative, line item negative, line item negative.

That, like, the one thing that I thought was a positive, which was this relationship, which are actually very problematic, like, had to be good. It had to work. So my suggestion for any person that's in the closet thinking about is, like, please do it as a single person. Because then it's.

It's so much easier to tease out like, that. It's for you, it's not for anyone else. And you won't stay in a relationship because you need it to work. I'm projecting.

But, like, that would be my suggestion. So, yeah, I would say that at the beginning. So much grief. And then I would say that, like, especially leaving my hometown.

Like, there's been so many times, especially in my current relationship, where I'm just, like, with my partner, and I'm just like, God, I'm so glad I'm gay. Could you imagine if we were straight? Like, oh, like, just so much joy in it. Like, could you imagine having to go home to kids right now?

Or, like, not having friends because you just get married and go to marriage island and then other people exist? Like, God, I'm so glad we're queer and have queer friends. Like, I.

Sam: 01:14:32

There's just.

Brandon: 01:14:32

There is. There's so much joy in it. I remember the first pride I went to. I went to a Colorado Springs one, which was very much like, we're here. We're queer.

Get used to it. But I remember I went to my first pride in Denver, which is far more progressive of a city. Great, great city to be queer in.

And I just remember it being like a party. I was in the parade. I had this.

I was at a party the night before, and this stranger was like, I'm, like, gonna be at my company's float, and we need more people. Do you want to, like, show up tomorrow? And I was just like, yeah, that sounds great. I want to be there.

And I, like, just got in, like, a slutty rainbow outfit because that's, like, what was mauled me. But honestly, I loved it. It was so much fun. I was just like.

Like, holding the banner and, like, dropping my ass and just dancing the whole way down this main street and Just people screaming in happiness. And I remember some friends of mine, straight couple. Oh, they both. I have come out as by now, by the time they're.

They're a heterosexual couple, they're both cis and they surprised me and I was working for a Christian software company at the time and because it's the only transition I could make out of ministry. And so like their stay in the crowd surprised me and I just. There's just so much joy.

There's so much joy seeing them there and like these strangers just being so happy for me and it was just like, ah. And you know, crying. I remember watching oh God, Heart Stopper and just being like, this is how it could be, you know, like how sweet it could be.

So, yeah, it is complicated. I think for. For years it was related to more mourning but being authentic, like being true to myself.

hen since probably about like: 2019

In that at the time, but like now I really don't have any shame around my sexuality and I love being out and proud of my.

Of my sexuality again because it's taught me a lot and it's enriched my life a lot and it's connected me to amazing people and so, yeah, very grateful for it.

Sam: 01:16:49

Yeah.

Brandon: 01:16:51

But it wasn't a tada.

Sam: 01:16:56

No, not at all. Oh, gosh. I don't. I. I've not met anyone where it's like that at all, to be honest. But usually at this point I would ask people.

I love asking people about, I guess, like reclaiming language that we think religion and the church owns and it's usually around what brings you joy and peace. But I am curious to focus more in the joy. This episode is going to come out in Pride month and so cute.

So I want to ask you what your own sense of queer joy looks like.

Brandon: 01:17:34

Yeah, Gosh. I don't. Some things I'm grateful for with my sexuality. I do have a post around this.

There's just like I just, just fixated on this for a while and of course I had some streets being like, this is against straight people. I'm just like, oh, shut up. Like, you guys have so many things. Like I get to have some nice things.

Sam: 01:17:52

Exactly.

Brandon: 01:17:53

Yeah. God, it felt very like all lives matter and I'm just like, oh my God. So. But like some things that I remember from that list, I just. Yeah.

So, so grateful for it has created an Openness in me to other people who are different. And I love that. I love that I'm comfortable with difference. I love that my queerness forces my partner and I to be more open in our communication.

And we don't inherit these gendered norms that we just, like, have to subscribe to. Like, every human being gets to decide how the romantic relationship looks like. But I think there is a clean slate for queer people.

You don't have to tear down anything, you know, like gender roles and stuff like that. It's just like a fresh slate. What do you want your relationship to look like? Do you want to be open? Do you want to be closed?

Do you want one person to be more of like someone who's taking care of the home? Do you want to have kids? Is someone going to nurture the kids? Are you both nurturing the kids? Is neither of you?

And you're gonna, I guess, find someone, like, pawn them off on an ante, you know, like, or an uncle or a grandmother or grandfather, you know, like, even the fact that I picked auntie, I'm just like, oh, that's interesting. Again, I picked the feminine role. What is that about? But I get. That's another one. I get to ask those questions. And it's not scary.

Another one is, I think it's created a lot of empathy inside of me. I remember the big thing that switched me with the Bible was like, again, like, with. With women and how women were treated in the Bible.

And there's just so much empathy that I think was created through my queerness. I have. I can make friends.

Like, I can walk into a queer space and there is this shared experience that's like, creates a level of compassion and camaraderie with each other. I could be literally in a. In a queer bar in Costa Rica and there's this thing of, like, you know what?

We have different language, Our coming experience could be very different, but we have some sharedness that makes us feel comfortable around each other. That very grateful for versus, like, you know, the straight. The straight man experience is typically pretty competitive.

And I think, you know, that we bring that into our career relationships. I'm not going to go down that tangent. That can happen still, but I do. I think there's some camaraderie there that's just so great.

Another thing about my queerness that I really love is just like. Like, I don't know, I. I don't need to fit and I feel so much joy and not fitting into a box. Like, there's some things that I do. Like, I.

This bench behind me, I built. I'm like, yeah, I know how to use power tools as a dude, you know, and, like, in the past, I would hate them just like, yo, I want anything manly.

And now I'm just like, oh, wait, actually, I like this. I like building things.

Sam: 01:20:45

Yeah.

Brandon: 01:20:47

To claim that, like, I get to build my gender and my sexuality in ways that feels like more from scratch and. Yeah. So. And I think another thing is just creativity. Like, there's.

I know it's a little bit of a trope, but I do think that, like, you know, like, when you're living a life that is atypical, it kind of opens you up to. Well, I don't. What are things that are quote, unquote, inherited? And do I want something atypical from that?

Whatever it may be, whether it be a house, whether it be living in community, whether it be buying a commune, whether it be, like, how you wear your hair, you know, like, it just. It kind of invades everything. And I do love that.

Sam: 01:21:25

Yeah. How long has it been since between when your book ended and where we are today?

Brandon: 01:21:34

Oh, that's a good question. I did add a chapter last minute before my publisher. I said, can we please, like, it was all done. And I was like, it doesn't feel complete.

I can need to.

Sam: 01:21:44

Yeah.

Brandon: 01:21:45

Add this so in case. So the very last chapter, the old. The. The old, like, the most recent is sacrilege.

There is a chapter after it, but I play with timeline in my book a lot. All right. No, that's not true. No, it is epilogue. Epilogue does happen before sacrilege, even though epilogue is after.

So I do play with my timeline quite a bit. But sacrilege, it's kind of like the moment where I decide to reincorporate some of the divine. But it comes through praying to my dead friend.

o that happened, like, May of: 2023

But, you know, obviously, there's a good. It's. It hits a lot of my life. But the very last physical moment that I write about in the book is about two years ago now.

Sam: 01:22:55

And so I want to ask this before I get to the last question that I asked, because I'm curious what your relationships with family and friends have looked like since the book.

Brandon: 01:23:08

ved to Atlanta in February of: 2022

It felt important to do my book launch back in Colorado Springs. And, you know, I went from, like. Like I said, it was very fringe, really. Tension, tenuous relationship with my family. A lot of.

In my book, I call a lot of friendships, like, fading out, like, the volume going down. But, you know, at my. At my book event, it was standing room only. And that was just very powerful because I think I got so much in my head.

I am still very glad they left Colorado Springs.

I needed to, but it did kind of show me of, like, man, I did say, I'm going to step into my authenticity and if people want me, they can have me, but I'm not going to change that. And to see that room so full, you know, a lot from more recent stages of my life, like in the last year or two.

I was very adamant about, like, this, who I am.

I'm like, you can deal with it or not, but some people who I've known since I was 14 that showed up in that space and that was just really beautiful to. To witness my family, you know, I have my queer sibling. He's great. And we definitely have a lot of, like, commonalities.

But, like, while I talk to my parents, like, it's still fringed. I think part of it, yes, around my sexuality to an extent. But for me, it's just. It's more like moral alignment. I'm just like, we don't. I.

I believe that someone who, you know, I have some friends who are dreamers, and I don't think that they should be kicked out of this country. I think that they deserve safety and peace and the things that the quote, unquote, American dream promises. The pursuit of happiness.

Yeah, Life and liberty. It's so weird. Like, like, kind of affirming these, like, American ideals. I'm, like, actually separated from nationalism.

I do believe life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So it is interesting that there's. I do believe they're entitled to that.

I believe that my amazing trans friends have right to access of care and to be seen and validated as who they are. And so as a result of that, I. I believe that billionaires are evil. Like, just period. Yeah. The end. So that's where there's more tension these days.

You know, they have met my partner and they've met my brother's partner, and, like, they want us over for Christmas, they want us over for Thanksgiving. But there's a lot of, like, kind of on their terms and so we, like, have to navigate, like, like, okay, it's not just your terms, it's our terms.

So let's create space for safety. So, yeah, that one's still fringed. There are friends that, after coming out, like, I. I've not reconnected, and they're. They're gone.

And, you know, I could blame my sexuality, but I think another piece of me is just like. And while my sexuality is definitely part of it, me not being a Christian is definitely a part of it also. Friendships do come and go.

They service for, to use a Christian phrase, a season, and then their time may end. And I think that we should still grieve them. I think that we don't give a lot of attention to grieving friendships.

We grieve romantic relationships and familial relationships all the time, but, like, really bad at grieving friendships. And I think that it invalidates people's experience, but, like, it happens. And, like, that's okay. Like, I, I.

We've outgrown each other is the best way of saying it. I think that we'd resent each other. In fact, you know, I had a recent friendship that we had a very direct conversation.

I've had, actually a few recent conversations that are very direct. Have nothing to do with my sexuality now. It's. It's transcended that.

It's just like, hey, like, the choices that you make are harming me and the people around you. And, like, I think that our friendship has served its purpose, you know, like, having those hard conversations with dignity.

So it's just interesting because, like, yes, for sure, my sexuality in the past killed relationships or made them fade out. But, like, I. I would not trade.

I wouldn't trade any of my friendships now for the friendships I had back then, because the friendships, like, see all of me, that's what creates a level. I think that's what creates a level of low tolerance. It's, you know, living in Colorado Springs, I went back with my boyfriend.

It'll be almost a year in June. I introduced him to some of my friends and, like, getting some space more so acquaintances. And I was just like, we. I'd kind of, like, reflect him.

Like, wow, I put up with a lot of bullshit because I had to, you know, like, when you don't have, like, nourishing food, like, soulful food, you kind of like, like, I'll take this Big Mac or I'll take this, these scraps, because the Big Mac's still really good. But, like, I'll take these, you know, because. And you think that that's sufficient? You think that's a meal? Are these salting crackers? Yeah.

And once you kind of like, wow, I have these friendships that see every piece of me. It really reframes your tolerance levels for who you give the privilege of access to who you are.

Sam: 01:28:45

Yeah, I, I talk a lot about grieving friendships because I don't come from a faith based family. So a lot of the grief around relationships that I lost were chosen family and my church community and friendships and things like that and.

Brandon: 01:29:00

Oh God. Did you convert as a teenager in youth group?

Sam: 01:29:02

I did. I chose to get on this roller coaster.

Brandon: 01:29:05

Sorry.

Sam: 01:29:06

I'm so sorry.

Brandon: 01:29:07

Yeah.

Sam: 01:29:10

My family definitely wished I hadn't, that's for sure. But I was the obnoxious black and white Christian.

But anyway, I think in grieving the friendships, it allowed me to also see that whilst my sexuality might have been the catalyst, those relationships were also not super healthy in itself as well.

Like, and so I think allowing that grief to unfold old at a pace that you know, you can handle and navigate allows you to see that they were far more layered and complex and, and potentially like unhealthy and toxic as all get out then your sexuality would have ever, you know, just sort of. That was the catalyst, that was the, the moment. But yeah, I, I talk a lot about grieving friendships.

I think it's one of the things that, yeah, we don't talk enough about as well. So. Okay. I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement to people and so I wonder if you can give.

Usually I used to say like a word of encouragement and sounded far too churchy for my life.

But like some thoughts, some advice, some humor, whatever takes you fancy in terms of somebody who has, is fresh in their deconstruction or they've just come out or they've just been kicked out or. But they're in this deep space of what the do I do right now.

Brandon: 01:30:38

Yeah, it's so interesting you bring this up because I stayed up spinning around this and I think I might turn this into just like something on my website and just like deliver to anyone that's on my email list if there's deconstructing, if it's helpful, great. But I had this thought process around what's been stolen from us and reclaiming it.

So some things I kind of like connect it to, like things from our head that were stolen, things from our heart that were stolen, things from our body that were stolen, things from our spirit that were stolen. And so like if you find Yourself freshly out of deconstruction. Like, what the hell do I do? Like, out of. Of evangelicalism. This one's not in here.

But the first thing is you find your people like that. We'll see all of you.

And if that means that you need to move somewhere, if that means you need to have digital relationships for a little bit, we as a species have thrived not from our intellect, not from our strength, not from our teeth. It is from our collective power.

Sam: 01:31:45

Yeah.

Brandon: 01:31:45

And it is also what has harmed us, but it is where our power comes from as a species. And so, like you, we are. We are meant. We're one of the few animals born, like, in. Into the world where, like, we cannot take care of ourselves.

We cannot walk, we cannot talk. Like, we are so vulnerable. And what it does. Is it like, from. From.

From birth, there is this dependency on each other that actually ends up being our power. Power. And so find people, just one or two, but do not do this alone. Would be my number one. Number one exhortation.

But, like, these are kind of more playful things that I've come up with because I think sometimes, like, deconstruction be so heavy. Yeah, like, these are kind of some more playful things. One is like, just try on world views. Like, just. Just try them on. Who cares?

Like, like, like, read about Buddhism. To quote why Lotus? Like, read about Islam. Read about some religion you've never heard of before. Read from a scientist.

That was one for me because I was told that scientists are bad.

And so, like, reading about evolution was like, this really wonderful, playful place of, like, oh, my gosh, I get to sit with this and see how this feels and try it on and learn. So that's, like, one that was really helpful. Another one that's, like, kind of also around this was like, like, experiment and try things on.

Like, like, my analogy is, like, have five. Go to the ice cream shop and try five different flavors. Like, is like the analogy, but, like, we've been so disconnected from what our wants are.

Often depending on your flavor of Christian. Mine was to not trust our wants. Like, just try something. You may hate it. Like, I moved to Atlanta and joined a queer kickball league and hated it.

But, like, I'm so glad I did it. And then I tried climbing, and I love it. Like, just try things on. Try on different clothes. Like, just. Just try. I just try. Like, try. What's the word?

Like, that's literally what is the worst that can happen. You lost your worldview and probably your community. Like, you are potentially at rock Bottom. Like, just try things. It's.

It's the best place to try them because the cost is so low. But sometimes it's just like, silly. Like, I've always wanted to sit in a park and dance around with my shoes off. Like, just go do that.

You know, like. Like you're in a beautiful space of trying. And so I'd say, try. Find your people. Try things. Be open. So, like, go experiment. Try the.

Whether that be like, it could be sexual if you want to, but, like, I mean, more so just like, just foreign things. Things that, like, you were not in contact with. Go be friends with people who are different than you. Oh, this is for body. For me, it was yoga.

Sam: 01:34:43

Yeah.

Brandon: 01:34:44

But like, we. I felt so disenfranchised from my body. And what has worked for me is either sitting and being mindful of like.

Like, what's my stomach doing right now? What's my chest? Is it tight? Is my forehead crinkled? Is my neck, like, sitting over my spine? Is my breath short? Like that mindfulness.

But, like, what really helped me with that was more yoga because I. It's probably even jockoism, someone bossing me around and saying, pay attention to your breath. Pay attention to this, pay attention to that.

Yeah, it's like, thank you, leader. I will listen. It was a nice, like, segue for someone to tell me to listen to my body.

But it was so nice because then also, like, when a yoga instructor. It's so stupid. But I just remember when a yoga instructor was like, lean, like, sit in the uncomfort. And you're. And then my evangelicals.

I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna really stretch into this. I'm a really stretch. Thank you. Option one, you know, the easy one. Option two, and then option three, which is the most difficult.

I'm like, I'm doing option three, baby. Let's go.

Sam: 01:35:45

Go hard or go hard.

Brandon: 01:35:46

Yeah, exactly. It's like, that's just my. Because of my thing. But like, when.

When your instructor and I say she because, like, in my head, most of the time it's not a she. Especially because, like, just the soothing presence. I'm total gendering right now. But like, I also have an issue with CIS dudes often.

So just like that call, like, I just hear her saying, like, if it's. Your body will tell you if it's too much. Yeah. You don't need to lean so far into this that it's hurting. It shouldn't hurt.

Your body will tell you if you should pull back and it's like, oh, okay. Thank you, yoga instructor. And like, now I listen to my legs and I don't do three, and I do option two. But, like, that was a freeing thing. Like, I.

It's so weird. I remember there's this one yoga session in particular I don't do often. Often, to be honest, I should. I don't should. There's no should.

I would like to do it more. But I remember I left the session and I. I went up to this lady. I'm like, I know it's gonna sound so weird, but I come from, like, a Christian.

I'm having this conversation with some stranger. Of course I am. Like, I just come from this religious background, and that was the closest I've experienced, like, worship in a very long time.

And she was just like. So I also come from even Joe. And so, like, we had this, like, nerd out moment.

And she just goes, there's something about honoring your body about like, hey, do this much, and that's okay. So, like, yoga is good for my body and then for spirit. Actually, it goes to the people. Connecting to people and embracing your humanity.

I know that death is a hard thing for people, and I'm actually very grateful that I've experienced some death.

As weird as that sounds like, being around death, whether it be in a graveyard or like, actually someone dying, really, for me, like, it forced me to recognize my connectedness to humanity and how I am human just like everyone else. And that's a very. Like, for me, that's a spiritual experience.

Like, thinking about ways that, like, how do you feed your head, your heart, your social body, your physical body, and your spirit, I think has been helpful for me. And those. Just some ways that have been helpful for me to, like, kind of feed myself.

Sam: 01:38:00

So I love that. That's probably the most full and holistic answer I've ever gotten for that question. I love that. Well, I mean, this has been an absolute delight.

And if people have not.

Brandon: 01:38:21

So fun. Thank you.

Sam: 01:38:22

If people have not already gone and, you know, added your book to their online cart somewhere, I'm will be baffled. But, like, just do yourself a favor and just, like, give that gift to your mind and your humor temporarily. So. Yes.

But thank you so much for joining me. It has been absolutely pleasure. It's been so much fun.

Brandon: 01:38:50

So good. Sam, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for the invite. This has been a great conversation, so.

And you're really great at holding space for people, so thank you.

Sam: 01:39:00

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you.

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.