The One Navigating The Intersection Of Faith, Sexuality And Gender

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs to that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface. Welcome. Steff, thanks for joining me.

Steff: 00:01:41

Thank you so much.

And I just wanted to start by acknowledging that I'm on warrendry Woi Wurrung country, because I know you acknowledged yours at the start of the episode and just wanted to begin by that.

Sam: 00:01:52

Amazing. My first question is always going to be like, for context, where in the world you are. So I'm glad that you have already answered that.

But this, this conversation, this episode has been a long time coming and so I'm excited to finally get you on the podcast and chat about your story. So I'm grateful for you being here.

Steff: 00:02:16

And, and thanks to you for following me up. And I'm sure part of that will come up in our conversation about why maybe it's been tough to. To get on the podcast. You know.

Sam: 00:02:27

Yeah, absolutely, it is.

I am always very conscious that people sharing their story on here is an incredible privilege for me to hear, but it also takes an incredible amount of vulnerability and bravery. And there are certain people in my personal world who have. Who are yet to be on this space because of that.

And so I'm always grateful when people jump on here with me. So I like to start these episodes with a super vague question to sort of kick us off.

And it is vague on purpose because I like people to feel safe where they want to start. So where does your story Start.

Steff: 00:03:07

Thank you. It also feels very pointed as well. It's like enough to latch onto and a broad enough. I.

My story starts in Tamworth on Gamilaroi country, which is a regional town in so called New South Wales, Australia. It's the country music capital of, you know, so called Australia. And that's sort of my beginnings. I grew up in a family of.

As it was back then, three girls and a dad that was a Anglican pastor. My mum was a teacher and yeah. Very much involved in church. Yeah. Some other things. My.

My eldest sister who actually passed away a few years ago had a pretty significant disability. So that was kind of the world that I was. That's kind of where my story starts as well and has been a really formative experience for me. Yeah.

So I guess I kind of. I started in that space. Church was huge. A faith that yeah, was largely evangelical, I think.

A town that was very white that I discovered when I went to uni. I had some unknown kind of unconscious racism that I had to figure out and white privilege to reckon with.

All of the colonization and patriarchy as well. So I guess like was in a really, you know, kind of. That family space is really formative for me.

I learned a lot of empathy and kindness and that, you know, having a sister who was different to a lot of people, that there's gray and that there's people who aren't quote unquote normal and that, you know, everyone might live different kinds of lives. So there was that as well as I guess like sort of big norms and narratives around. Yeah.

Kind of patriarchy and colonization which were kind of all in the faith mix as well. And I think have kind of unfolded on my way to kind of critique some of that and hold on to some of that.

I think some of that has sort of kind of quote unquote saved me from some of the harsher things that were there. Yeah. But also just kind of playing on the street. I, you know, when I was 11, I got a. I got gifted from my nan, a razor scooter.

I was one of the first kids in. In my street to have a scooter.

Sam: 00:05:56

That is a blast from the past.

Steff: 00:05:58

I know. I remember like a very. Maybe a peak, peak childhood moment was jumping eight pizza boxes. So.

Sam: 00:06:06

Wow.

Steff: 00:06:07

Yeah. I, I'm. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was a time that's impressive actually.

Sam: 00:06:13

I remember trying to. I remember trying to go on my friend's razor scooter and I just do not have any semblance of like balance and coordination. It was Just.

It was a hot mess, that's for sure.

Steff: 00:06:25

Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:26

Growing up in a. I grew up in Lithgow, which is not too far from Tamworth.

It's, you know, a few hours, but it's similar, very regional CIS hat, white, conservative country town.

Steff: 00:06:38

And.

Sam: 00:06:41

It has its pros and cons.

Steff: 00:06:42

That's.

Sam: 00:06:44

There's a lot of beauty growing up in a small town and a lot of rigidity that can come from growing up in that small town as well.

Steff: 00:06:52

That's a beautiful way to summarize it. And I think I. I'm really kind of proud and love the part of me that grew up in the country.

I think, you know, that kind of grounded slow formation that you can have. And also, you know, the fact that you can just talk to anyone.

I think moving to Sydney, it's a very different vibe, which is what I did kind of later in life. Yeah.

But I love those parts and that, you know, the neighborhood and, you know, your neighbors and I think, yeah, there are systemic things which stop people from being able to access being part of a neighborhood long term, including housing inequality. But, yeah, those things I really loved about growing up in the country.

Sam: 00:07:35

What was the. I guess the interaction with faith and family and the environment that you grew up in?

Because, you know, you can hear and I have heard some really horrific and horror stories about the impact that faith can have in country towns. And even more so if there is any sort of difference in that family in terms of queerness or disability or health issues or something like that.

What was that like, your family and for you?

Steff: 00:08:03

Yeah, I think. I think up until I left Tamworth, so I left at 19.

I did all of my kind of school and growing up, I guess became an adult in Tamworth and then moved to Sydney. And I think my work began when I moved to Sydney. That's when things really hit me that I. I had to figure things out.

Sam: 00:08:29

The demographic.

Steff: 00:08:30

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And also that's when I first discovered I was queer as well. So I think largely growing up and because, you know, I was an extrovert, I.

I was sporty, I was a tomboy, I played guitar, I was musical. My dad was the. The minister. There were a lot of things, you know, I'm white, I am in a smaller body.

There are a lot of things about me that meant that I could really just slide through pretty well.

And definitely there are things that I'm unraveling about growing up that weren't, you know, healthy or, you know, that there were things happening underneath the surface. For me. But I think largely, you know, because I was sort of at the center of my community because of my dad. Yeah.

And just because of, I don't know, I guess those parts of me that fit in and were largely smooth. Church was pretty good. Like. Yeah. And you know, some of that, that is definitely like how you come to see a space.

You know, I think looking back, there are things that I could critique and you know, I hated watching the Easter movie on Easter, you know, when they kind of show that the Jesus film. And you're like, what? Like, this is awful and this is so traumatic. And like I remember moments like that.

And I also remember like the comments about, you know, like is, you know, so and so's Uncle Gay. And it's like, oh no, he's not, he's Christian. And I remember comments about, you know, there was a. We never had a woman who could be a bishop.

And I remember conversations about the fact that women could only have certain places and. But at the time you think that's normal.

And as a kid, when you're just kind of getting through and you just want to have friends and play sport and have a social life and things like that, I think largely it was pretty okay. And then, yeah, things as a bit of a foreshadow really unraveled when I moved to Sydney and was confronted with some, some big things.

Sam: 00:10:40

Yeah, I, I mean you've already very much hinted at that.

But I want to, before I ask you about how that unfolded for you, I want to sort of ask a question around how you look back on your teenage years, because we typically think about that as like our very identity forming period of time. And the reality is, is that there is a significant number of queer people who realize that about themselves during that.

How do you look back on that window?

Steff: 00:11:11

Yeah, for me, I mean, I went to a public school in Tamworth. I didn't have any kind of religious influence in my schooling, which probably is a piece that definitely shapes that space for me.

I had a couple of really good friends. I had a great kind of cohort of students. I remember the teachers talking about how it would be every second year was a real bad one. Oh.

So there was a lot of drama in the above us and the year below us. But for whatever reason we had, we had some good, some good, some good eggs in our year and apparently where we were a bit of a breeze.

So like a lot of that, I looked back, I look back with a lot of fondness and gratitude and I mean, I do remember Like a very visibly gay guy in our school getting utterly bullied. You know, I remember that. But of course, I didn't really connect with it in an emotional way because I didn't realize that about myself at the time.

I was largely unconscious to that. Although. Yeah. Looking back, I can see the ways that I formed friendships and the closeness and intimacy that I held with some of my female friends.

And, you know, when.

When they would partner with other people or kind of connect with others, I remember, you know, having fear, like, really strong feelings of jealousy and, like, loss that I. I did not. I was not able to make sense of. And now I look back and I'm like, oh, gosh.

Like, of course, you know, and, like, I think that's, like, a very queer experience to be like, oh, yeah, that, like, best friend that we were in love with. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We just really cared for as a friend. Yes.

Sam: 00:12:58

We're just very intense in. Just intense in relationships and friendship and Pat.

Steff: 00:13:04

Yeah. Yeah. Which then became narratives in the church. Right. Of, like, you know, that. That kind of.

That's a really good thing to have such a close connection with someone of the same gender. And what a gift. It's just that then it gets twisted a little bit when that then turns to romantic or sexual, you know, so. Yeah, but.

And I also think part of that kind of high schooling is also that there was space for questions in my family. But I think, like, my. Because my eldest sister could never verbalize the same, like, saving prayer that, you know, it was expected of everyone else.

It's like, you accept Jesus into your heart as Lord. You know, you confess that, you know, Christ is king. I don't know, whatever. And then, like, you. That's when you're saved.

Like, my sister could never verbalize that kind of thing because of her disability. And so there was always space for. Well, there must be. There must be space for other people to kind of.

Or, like, a bigger expansiveness of God to hold that. Or for people who are in. You know, and this is all speaking from that worldview.

Like, I would have different ways of describing this now, but when you're questioning, like, well, what about people on the other side of the world that have never heard about Jesus? Like, what happens to them? You know, and it was. There was always, like.

It was never, like, really binary black and white answers because I had someone in my home who lived in the gray and couldn't fulfill the narrative. And so then others had to be able to, you know, be. Be able to have to be Kind of some spaciousness for other people. And I think that.

And, you know, my parents were also quite, like, politically progressive as well, so that helped too. And, you know, really strong for me were like the. The values of kindness and empathy.

And my mum would always kind of send me out the door being like, look for the person who doesn't have friends and make friends with them, you know, and that was kind of part of our faith. So I think, yeah, like all those things are in the mix there for me. Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 00:15:07

So with all of that almost uncommon progressiveness and curiosity within your family whilst you were within that worldview and before you moved to Sydney, who was God to you at that point?

Steff: 00:15:24

Yeah, I think God was someone outside of ourselves who we could go to for help, who we could ask to ask for support. But then also, you know, someone who also required something from us and that. That would be hard. And, you know, there was.

There was sacrifice to be made. And I think it made sense of the painful things in life to go, well, you know, God is behind this. And that's. That's a kind of unhelpful doctrine.

I believe now to. To say that God is causing those things.

But then also when people, Other more conservative people would say, well, God caused your sister's disability. And that was not okay, you know, so there was. There's a bit of that in the mix of kind of.

That's where the gray came in is like, well, yeah, to some extent, yes, but some extent no. And that doesn't feel okay for you to say that. So, yeah, I.

I largely experienced God as someone who was a support and a caring being who you could call on for help and, you know, prayer. When things became beyond you, what you couldn't handle, there was someone there who you could turn to. But then also there was.

There was complication, I think, in that. That life should be hard if you are going to really accept this being in your life sincerely.

Sam: 00:16:57

Yeah, that suffering is holy narrative is really unhelpful and at times can be really damaging and harmful for a lot of people.

Steff: 00:17:07

Yeah, I like.

Sam: 00:17:08

I like to ask that question because I typically, later in the episode, like to mirror it because typically the people that I have in these episodes, their perception of who God is or who a divine being is to them changes somewhat or quite a bit. So I like to. To give people a bit of a before and after snapshot of.

I think it can give us context as to where we are now, as to where we've come from.

Steff: 00:17:36

I love that.

Sam: 00:17:37

But take Us to Sydney. And what. Because I imagine that even just on a surface, the demographic culture shock would have been a lot to adjust to.

Steff: 00:17:47

Definitely. Yeah. I moved to a Anglican college on campus at Macquarie University and I was really kind of thrown into fundamentalism there.

Like patriarchy fundamentalism, really strict binary black and white thinking about faith and I guess a real, that kind of those kinds of apologetic defense of the faith argument based Christianity. Yeah, and, yeah, and a real assuredness of being right.

And that, I guess also that kind of persecution narrative, like a lot of people are definitely going to resonate with so much of this. And I remember actually in Bible studies I'd call my parents afterwards and be like, hey, like they just said this thing is like, do we believe that?

And they, I mean thankfully they would say, oh look, they're a little, they're a little kind of weird down there, you know.

Sam: 00:18:57

So that's a very, very polite and diplomatic way of describing Sydney Anglicanism.

Steff: 00:19:03

Yeah. Because my dad had trained at more. My mum had also trained at Moore College, which is the Anglican Conservative fundamental college in Sydney.

And you know, my mum tells stories now of seeing the wave of complementarianism come through.

Like when they were there, you know, there were all kinds of different beliefs about women in leadership and women being ordained and you know, there was a lot of that movement coming through and my mum can remember and like names people being like, yeah, I remember him and he gave me the ick. You know, like, I just remember him and his boys clubs coming through.

So like it's an, it's an interesting experience that I think I've had in terms of that, that like, but also that, that, you know, my parents also kind of participated in that as well and kind of confirmed some of those beliefs but challenged some of them. And so there's a bit of a mix in there. So.

Yeah, I, I think I, I remember it was, it was a bit of a culture shock but then also a lot of it still aligned and there was, you know, I, I played music, I, I'm a confident speaker.

I, yeah, I think a lot of those things which, you know, got me through in my, in church in my younger years then also set me up to be quite, you know, quote unquote, successful in the church there and community there and kind of being a core leader and you know, I, I was really, really quite involved in that, both that college and there was a church attached to it and yeah, kind of in the leadership of that community for a while, but also definitely had little nigglings of like, do we really believe that thing? Or like, that seems a little odd or like, yeah, this is kind of wild. And we do really intense Bible studies. Like it.

But I guess it was like, kind of, you're at uni, right? Like, and it's kind of normal and you sort of, you know. Yeah. But also is like, not normal too.

Sam: 00:21:04

It's an intense kind of not normal. I. I talk. I.

And I've talked about this in a few other episodes because I've had a few other people who have had quite a bit of an experience in the Sydney Anglicans and because part of my story was doing year 13 with the Sydney Anglicans.

And so I often will talk about how conservative and fundamental they are, particularly in comparison to what we would consider, you know, mainstream Anglicanism, quote, unquote. But I'm curious because I know what it was like for me.

What it was like for you to be in that space and to be pretty, like, to be much more immersed in that space than I was and unraveling your queerness at the same time. Because those two things don't go together typically.

Steff: 00:21:55

They do not. Yeah. Yeah. I. Yeah, there was. There was a.

There's kind of like a few moments that I remember feeling pretty key, one of which was my pastor at the time took me out for lunch and was just like, oh, Steph, there's nothing else about this lunch than to say thank you for your involvement in this community. Because of you and these two other people, this community survives.

You are so pivotal and so core to the sustainability and the ongoing connection and kind of holding together of this space. And, you know, he.

I think he had his own hardships, like, lived with a bit of pain and kind of had, you know, an ongoing, kind of chronic, maybe would call it a disability. I'm not sure.

And so I think, like, got a lot of source of encouragement from us and these other two people who were kind of like, really committed to that. That community of faith. And then I remember another moment is like the night that.

So, you know, obviously at an Anglican Christian college, it's separated by gender. So I was in the girls wing, boys were in the boys wing. And, you know, that's great for keeping. Keeping no sex until the queers come in.

And then it gets very complicated. And so I was essentially like, you know, kind of neighbors with, you know, one of my best friends who one night, you know, we just kind of.

I just said. I think. I can't remember who said it first.

It was just like, I've always Been interested in kind of exploring kissing a girl, and then she said the same thing. And then, you know, that kind of unraveled to us just having this secret relationship. And that dove me into so much shame and so much secrecy.

And I just remember going along to church and God. You got it. Like the Anglicans, they really drill in the shame and the judgment.

And particularly when you've got university students who are, like, drinking too much and, you know, kissing people and, you know, whatever. They're like, judgment, judgment, judgment. Stop doing all the shit you're doing. You're being naughty, and, you know, God wants you to do better.

And I love it that they preach Corinthians over and over and over again. But don't ever go to a gospel where there's like, you know, let's talk about Jesus.

No, we're going to talk about the Corinthians and how bad they were as a population and all their sexual impurity and all their debauchery, and that's what we're going to keep preaching at you. So I just remember that, like, I. That unraveled me so much. Like, I. Yeah, I just was.

I felt so bad about myself and was just, you know, in that kind of cycle that I think a lot of us know of. Yeah. Kind of really being pulled. Like, your body is pulling you in one direction, and being like this feels so lovely and great and connecting.

And then, like, just immediately then afterwards, you're like, I feel like, like the worst person in the world. Like, I'm also. I'm so scared about what this means for my future and my eternity and my relationship.

And like, that cycle was just there for the next, you know, months, I guess, until I kind of had the guts to go. I don't think I can do this turmoil anymore and feel pulled in two directions.

And this part of me is continuing, and I don't know what else to do about it than to just say it exists and that I have to embrace it. Like, I can't fight it anymore. I've tried praying it away. I've tried resisting it.

I've tried doing all the things of that kind of cycle of, like, repentance in inverted commas. Don't think that's how repentance works. And. Yeah, and then kind of told. Told my minister, like, hey, this is, you know, this is who I am. This is.

I'm kind of Send me in a relationship. Who knows? Like, don't really know what to call it. I'm just trying to find myself and I'M just trying to be honest about where I'm at. Yeah.

And that just, that kind of unraveled my leadership in that community, my involvement there. It was all of a sudden like, okay, this, we need to kind of respond to you because this is who you are.

Like, it was sort of a flick of the switch of how I was treated by that minister, of being so thanked to being resisted and you know, being such a positive influence to them, being such a negative influence in a second.

Sam: 00:26:50

Yeah, yeah.

I'm known for giving double barreled questions in these episodes and I'm gonna hit you with one here because I want to ask what it was like for you personally, particularly, you know, when no one else was around, what it was like for you in that window of time when you thought that who you were was not okay because that's what you were being told from the external world and from the chur. But also. And you sort of just started to talk a little bit about it, which was the impact of that step of telling your minister at the time.

Because I know when I did that shit hit the fan basically. And, and it just does. It does not go well. Typically, sometimes it goes worse than others, but it's not a fun process by any means.

And so not just necessarily what happened, but the impact of what happened on you.

Steff: 00:27:50

Yeah, yeah. And I, I love that you kind of mentioned these feelings of isolation because that, that definitely is what happens.

It just separates you from feeling like anyone is in your corner or that anyone. You know, you're the only person who. Yeah. And kind of you have this thing that you're hiding. Yeah. Shame.

Shame is a really gross thing that religion does to us. Yeah, I do.

And I think this is where, you know, evangelicalism both hurt me and helped me in that it gave me such a strong and firm foundation of faith and who God was and the fact that like, actually nothing, you know, and I'm going to use language from the time that maybe is like, you know, I'm just going to talk about it ongoing, like, and some of this stuff I'd think about differently or explain differently, but like, at that time it was like nothing in the world can separate you from the love of God and Jesus.

Sam: 00:28:58

I knew as soon as you said nothing exactly what you were going to say.

Steff: 00:29:02

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And so two things were happening at the same time. Like, I was like, I, I like it. There's no, there's no space for me.

I look ahead and all I see is the fact that you can't Exist here.

Sam: 00:29:19

Yeah.

Steff: 00:29:20

And yet.

But then also I look ahead and I see that there must be space for me here because of these other things that I'm told and also because I'm experiencing something that you're saying isn't possible.

And yet these two things exist inside of me where, like, you know, you have this narrative that I'm no longer expressing my faith or I no longer love God, or I no longer am following God. Yet I know that doing that so desperately because I show up here time and time again and I want this so much. And I'm also queer. So it. There has.

There has to be something, but I don't know it yet. That's all I know. Like, it's just kind of like it's the only thing. But, like, it was.

It was shattering to me kind of coming to the impact of that conversation because, like, just.

Just the way, the different way that you can be treated, like the way that you are embraced and celebrated and so central to a community to then being rejected and pushed aside and kind of taken off. All ways of being involved in that community that are purposeful for you, that means something for you. And I think as well, it's like the narrative.

It's the narrative that. That sends. And it's the.

It's like that's what's so harmful is, you know, it's not just that, like, I'm receiving that, but then my community can see that I'm no longer doing all the things that I was doing. But I think also, like, you know, I'm. I'm an enfp, and that's the advocate. And I was just like, well, I'm just going to keep showing up.

I'm going to keep coming to church.

I'm going to sit in the pews and you can say what you're going to say, but I know that I belong here and I know that, like, God has space for me here. And I know some.

Some little niggling inside of me says that what's happening to me is wrong and you can say whatever you want about me, but I'm just going to keep doing the thing that I know. And obviously you've kind of left me out to dry, but this is still my community, this is still my faith, this is still my God.

And so let's just see what happens. Like, just do. Do the one thing, you know, show up and. Yeah, I think from there that kind of. Yeah. And. And people also notice that too.

Sam: 00:31:48

Yeah.

Steff: 00:31:49

You know. Yeah.

Sam: 00:31:50

Where I. I mean, I've got To ask, because I think when I.

After everything happened in my story, I think I only went back into my former church maybe twice after that experience. And so I've got to ask where on earth that courage and bravery and resilience came from. To kept walking.

To keep walking back into that space where you are surrounded by people and yet completely alone.

Steff: 00:32:17

Yeah. And that's. That's the unexplainable mystery. Right. And I think that's. I think that's, like, where I. I don't know why.

For some people, it's, see you later, I can't do this. And for me, it was like, you know what? Actually, you don't get to say that about me. You know, Like, I. For whatever reason. And I, I.

And I've thought about this. I think, like, you know, I. I generally have had pretty good mental health. I've had. I've. I also. Actually, I also would attribute a lot to my parents.

Yeah. And that, like, they were definitely had the same beliefs about me.

Like, they were kind of in the same doctrinal belief thing that being gay was not okay.

But I would be, like, after conversations with people, like, who just kind of feel like they can say all these things about me, you know, that what you're doing is wrong, you know, anyway, so we don't have to kind of go through that. People know that. Yeah. Let's just name that. But not say the explicit things, because they're really awful. Yeah.

I would call them in tears and be like, I can't believe this person has just said this thing about me. And, like, I would be like, is that really who I am? Like, because I don't. I don't think that's who I am.

I don't think that that's how I'm approaching this. And what they've said is just really hurtful. But, like, if it's true, can you affirm this or not affirm this?

Like, I just need someone else to be a referee here and tell me what's going on. And thankfully, my parents, like, just saw how hurtful and harmful those things were to say.

And even though I know that they believed them in the background, they were just like, I'm so sorry. That's not okay. Like, I'm really sorry like that. And like, no, you're like, we love you. You know, And I. I think I actually. Yeah.

A lot of that was maybe attributed to having, you know, that kind of secure attachment or some sort of safe place to go when all of that stuff was happening. And My.

You know, I remember my sister showed up to conversations at churches that were so harmful and sat with me, and we were both like, are you absolutely kidding me? Like, you know what? I. You're. I can't take communion here anymore. Like, are you kidding me?

And, like, we would both be in tears, but we'd both be like, you can't do that. Like, I actually. Like, we're lost for words. Like, so I think I had that support system. I had someone else to kind of witness me.

I also had solidarity in some sense, and I also just had this fierce, like, you know, I think when you.

When you grow up with a sibling with a disability, you see that, like, the world is unjust and that, like, the way people treat some people is not okay. And so you're, like, ready for a fight. Like. And so, like.

And I would describe that, like, if anyone ever said anything like, you know, said some sort of derogatory comment about people with disability, just be like, let's go. Like, you know, I think there's a fierceness there of kind of advocacy that was sort of there, that.

That mix of things, as well as being pretty firm in my faith and growing up with, like, strong values. I was like, this is not it. But I don't really know how else to describe it. It's also a bit of a mystery. Yeah.

Sam: 00:35:39

And so how long did you stay in that very conservative Anglican space?

Steff: 00:35:44

Too long. Yeah. I'm not. I'm not recommending it. My advice has since changed. Get out as soon as. As soon as humanly possible.

I stuck around not just in that church.

I kind of went through a few churches because I moved, but I reckon it was maybe about six years longer I was in Anglican churches, maybe even eight years. And I know. I know.

Sam: 00:36:15

My heart breaks for you that you're in that space for so long.

Steff: 00:36:19

I know. Yeah.

Sam: 00:36:21

Oh, my goodness.

Steff: 00:36:22

Yeah. And because you get told the narrative, like, if you go anywhere else, like, you know, nowhere else. None of the other Christians are Christians.

Sam: 00:36:30

Yeah.

Steff: 00:36:30

So you're like, well, guess this is where I got to stay. Yeah.

Sam: 00:36:36

Oh, my goodness. Okay. So over that, like, six to eight years, what was it like for you to affirm and eventually embrace your queerness in a space that didn't.

Steff: 00:36:52

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, let's just start with pretty tough. Yeah.

Sam: 00:36:57

Because, I mean, that's tough on its. On its own.

Even if you remove yourself from the environment and you were still raised with that type of doctrine, that's hard enough to separate, but it's even harder if you are still in that environment, still having that sort of like fed to you on a week to week basis.

Steff: 00:37:17

Yeah, yeah, I. And I think it, it was just back to basics.

It was like, I think like the first time I wrote a blog, it was like coming out, standing on the rock or something like that. And like, it was just like back to basics or, you know, who knows what God thinks about queers.

But all you know is that like, God is a rock and a fortitude and a stronghold and you can stand here and like, God will protect you. You know, God is this protective figure that when things are coming at you on all fronts, God is with you.

You know, I was just like, that's all I know. Like, let's just start there. Let's keep going from there. And I think then from that place I started to just explore my queerness really.

And I remember this funny pastoral advice that someone gave me, which a minister gave me, which is just like, I think you'll be okay as long as you don't move to Newtown, which for anyone who doesn't know, Sydney is like the kind of queer center of Sydney. And I was like, what strange pastoral advice.

Anyway, so the next year I moved to Redfern, which is neighboring Neighbors New Town, and got onto the online forums. I made my first group of queer friends and really, like, they kind of showed me how to be queer and how to embrace yourself and you know, how. Yeah.

How is queerness embodied? And at that point it was like, how is gayness embodied? And really like, how it's like being a lesbian, although I never identified with that word.

And I think that was a gender thing.

Sam: 00:39:00

Yeah.

Steff: 00:39:01

And alongside that did the faith thing in a kind of like, who knows? I know that, like. And also, it's just, it's very easy to distrust the church when it's being so hurtful as well.

Like, I was like, if this was, like, if I actually felt loved by you when you're telling me that you're loving me, like, that would be a different story. But I know so much that this is not okay. And like, all the stuff you're saying like, is so bad.

And you know, as time went on, I think just the clutches of their authority left. And I remember being in one conversation with a pastor. I've just got lots of like pastoral conversations that just. Just gobsmacking really.

Because at that point it was okay to be trans, but it wasn't okay to be gay. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? Yeah. And at that point I, like, I tried to have a conversation, and I was like, that does.

That makes absolutely no sense. And then that pastor, he was like, oh, but, you know, here's. Here's a little article about this. And it was from someone called Patricia.

Patricia Wirricun, who. I don't. I don't know if people have been exposed to her. She did, like, some rounds for, like, sex education and sexuality and things like that.

And she was a bit of a kind of like, you know, the.

The Anglican ministers followed her for a little bit, and she said being trans was okay and that we should love people who are affirming their gender. I know. Wild. Yep. 10 years ago in the church. Right. And then at that point, I was like, you don't know what the f. You're talking about.

Like, this makes absolute no logical sense. And from this point forward, I feel like I'm not trusting a word out of your mouth.

Sam: 00:40:43

Yeah.

Steff: 00:40:44

So just like, strange stuff like that just kind of unraveled things. And I was like, okay, like, it started. It's time to start trusting yourself and what. You know, And. Yeah.

And kind of leaning into that and leaning out of that because that. That world is not. Yeah. Is not happening. And it also came when I first discovered my.

Like, read a book about kind of queer affirming or gay affirming theology as well, and how to read the Bible in a kind of gay inclusive way. Like, that was super pivotal for me.

And I just remember reading that book and having a really, like, the most spiritual, like, kind of charismatic Pentecostal experience of my life, which was like, I just heard the. Heard a voice say, you can rest now, Steph. And it was, like, really wild to kind of have that experience.

But I think, yeah, reading that slowly, letting the authority of church brush away and trusting myself and kind of leaning into other spaces to learn and just kind of coming into my body and being like, well, here. Here are these two things coexisting at the same time. Let's go. Yeah.

Sam: 00:42:00

So if people are really listening, they might have noticed that you hinted at a couple of little things, which is so. And so I'm gonna ask a question based on that, which is. So when did the questions around your gender start? And what was that like for you?

Steff: 00:42:15

Yeah, yeah, that was.

That came a lot later, and it was around maybe 31 or something like that, that I guess in embracing my gayness, kind of quote unquote, saying a lot of quote unquote. I don't know. It just seems to be a thing right now, you know, like, thanks, everyone. The quote unquote interviewee, Steph Benson. Great.

But, yeah, I remember kind of, I cut my hair short. I'd started dressing in a more kind of mask way.

And then a friend of mine just one night was like, hey, Steph, do you reckon, like, would you want to try using they, them pronouns? And I was like, oh, I guess I've thought about it, but it doesn't feel genuine because I don't know.

And I don't want to kind of take up space where maybe it's not my space to be.

Sam: 00:43:15

Yeah.

Steff: 00:43:16

And he really beautifully said. Well, I'm just going to start using them and let me know if it doesn't seem right and just let me know if it doesn't fit. Yeah. And.

And it didn't like it. It felt great. And when he used it and other people were around, other people would be like, oh, like, are you? Yeah. Have you updated your pronouns?

Like, are you using they, them pronouns? And I was like, maybe I am.

Sam: 00:43:41

What a beautiful organic transition, though.

Steff: 00:43:44

I know, it's so beautiful. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And by that time I'd kind of gone.

Gone way over the hill of the kind of evangelical faith, like, kind of don't know if I can be gay, queer, whatever realm.

And I was like, we'd been part of starting a queer affirming church at that point, and so exploring my gender identity was just so natural and kind of came alongside my, like, faith as well. And there was just space there to do that. And actually that church community was the first community to kind of start, like, kind of update.

So start using they, them pronouns for me and really helped me kind of open up being non binary and. Yeah, yeah.

And I think there was another moment when I was in the car with two of my lesbian friends and we're listening to someone describe their experience of gender being non binary. And, you know, I was just like, it was so much. I was just taking this in and resonating and connecting. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Can we just, like, pause for a moment and just chat about this? And I was like, okay, first of all, like, question. Like, how's everyone going? Like, you. You're like, everyone sharing these experiences.

Like, what do you think? And then I just remember seeing blank faces, like, yeah, sorry, Steph. Like, we're not resonating with this. Like, this is not my experience.

And I was like, whoa, okay, I'm trans. Wow. And really beautifully, one of my friends that day, I, like, I think you get to choose Steph, like you can choose your gender.

And that was another beautiful invitation that I got to. Got to take. Yeah, yeah. So that's sort of. That's sort of the, the transgender non binary exploration. Yeah.

Sam: 00:45:38

How did your, I guess your exploration and your. I hate the word journey. I really need to find other words to replace the word journey. Just have yet, not to find. I haven't found one yet.

But your experience of like, questioning, doubting, embracing and affirming both your sexuality and gender, that whole experience, how did that then, and this is probably the mirroring question, how did that then impact how you viewed God? And how did that divine being to you change?

Steff: 00:46:15

Yeah, yeah. I think another significant part of my journey. Let's lean in. Was getting to study a master's of divinity at a progressive Christian college.

And I learned from women, people of color, from indigenous theologians. I learned about queer theology.

And like, at the point at which I enrolled in that degree, I was like, I know what faith I don't believe in, but I actually don't know what else is possible. And so that, that degree just gave me all the tools and I thought I'd done all my deconstructing at that point.

And then I was like, whoa, still got more to do. Ye welcome it. We embrace it. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, I think it really kind of helped to put some pieces back together for me and in a really fast tracked way, which I think, like a lot of other people do more of on a kind of slower journey because just the intensity of the amount of information that I was consuming and the variety and like, I just am so grateful for that. And I think it's kind of part of why I feel so passionate about trying to share theology and different ways of reading the Bible.

So people have the tools to do that for themselves. But I can't remember the question. But that's all right.

Sam: 00:47:32

I was asking about your perception of God.

Steff: 00:47:35

Oh, yeah, sure.

Sam: 00:47:36

All of that.

Steff: 00:47:37

Yeah, yeah, totally, I think. Yeah. And like, so much change. Like, so much change. It's hard to even kind of capture from like, you know, even like, I mean, like, the gender of God.

Definitely. I remember in that degree I didn't ever use he, him pronouns for God in any of my assignments, which was amazing.

And yeah, got to write a thesis about the gender expansiveness of God and the movement of that in. Through the Bible. But then also heaps of things about, like, nuances around suffering and forgiveness.

And like, God's like, where is God in the suffering? And does God, you know, the fact that we get, you know, Jesus kind of foreshadows the fact that there will be suffering if you follow him.

And like, is that a. Is that like a mandate?

Or is that just something that probably will happen when you're living in a way that's different from the system that you live in? Like, here's just a heads up, if you follow me. It's probably going to be hard rather than like, you must suffer.

So I think that, like, kind of those sorts of things really kind of shifted God from like a heavy, violent, patriarchal God to a softer, gentler God with kind of being and. Yeah, to. Yeah, like a lot of that. And, and even the way that, you know, that God is revealed in the world as well.

Like learning from indigenous theologians, like, and seeing how much in scripture that nature actually praises God more consistently than people do. And being like, wow, great. Like, there's. That's beautiful. Yeah. So much changed. It's hard to kind of summarize it.

Sam: 00:49:45

Yeah, I like to ask, and I know that what I'm about to ask is probably a very big question, so feel free to. To summarize in whatever way feels good.

But I think a lot of the time there is this question, and I like to ask it because I know that there are other queer people of faith who are listening to these episodes.

And I like to ask the question, how on earth are you still a person of faith when we watch the absolute atrocities that happen and can be done by the church system towards queer and trans folk?

Steff: 00:50:25

Yeah, I think the, I mean, the, the easy answer is just the separation of the institution from the divine being. Who is at the center of that story? Someone.

Actually, it was at World Pride, there was a panel on religion, and I just thought it was the most beautiful way to summarize what I'm saying now is like, the, the church doesn't have a monopoly on God. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think it's that. I think it's that separation of who.

Who owns the stories, who gets to interpret them, who gets to share them, who gets to kind of say what's meaningful.

And the fact that the church is so scared of letting us be part of those communities to share our stories speaks to the fact that, you know, we have something so powerful and influential to say to them that they are so frightened of that.

And time and time again, you know, that is the story I look back on and I go, you are so scared of me because I invited you to repent and I invited you to. I, like, I asked you for forgiveness. And I tried to show you a bigger story of God.

And you know, how confronting that, you time and time again pushed me away because that was so hard to see. And yet here I am, I'm still here, and I still have an invitation. And if you want to turn back and go, like, I'd love to hear that sometime.

What also happens is you don't just hear my story. You hear a bigger story of a divine being who is here with me as well. You kind of will learn from that. Yeah, yeah.

I was going to say something else, but that. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of it, I think.

Sam: 00:52:13

Oh.

Steff: 00:52:13

And I think as well, talking about kind of trauma and healing, I think that what. Why I'm still, you know, a Christian and I kind of problematize that as well. That label is a hard one to identify with, but also feels appropriate.

Yeah. Is because so much of how I have healed from the trauma that's been inflicted on me by the institution that. That did that in the name of God.

So much of what I find in the Christian faith and in the faith of Jesus and this divine being is that you at any point get to come back and start again and start afresh.

And that at the center of that there is compassion and grace and kindness and you can have as much of that as you need, and that is open for you and that someone will securely be there for you and be a place of safety for you.

You know, so much of that is around what we know heals people about having secure attachment, about having self compassion, about getting rid of shame and judgment. And you know what I think heals trauma in the world and heals the hard things of the world are these soft things that I find in this faith.

And that if I can find that not just for myself, but I can find that in a spacious enough way so that others might also be able to bring their hard things to me and that I could have enough generosity and kind of looking towards them and empathy for them to understand maybe their experience, that maybe they could heal too.

Like, so much of that is what I know heals cycles of trauma and heals hurt and harm in our worlds, that I just find them so centrally in the story of God that I'm like, these are really beautiful things that I don't ever want to let go of because they've transformed my life. I think that they transform other people's lives. And I think they genuinely will transform and heal our worlds.

And so, yeah, that's also why I stick around.

And yeah, and why, you know, I'm not pushing that on anyone else, but if anyone wants to find that, that I'd love them to find that faith, if they still want to.

Sam: 00:54:37

Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why, when I first started this podcast, that I wanted it to hold nuance for a spectrum.

I have people who still identify as Christians on this show like yourself. I have people who sit in the space of wanting to burn it all down and never want to use a religious jargon language ever again. And that's also okay.

And I think it's just allowing space place for people to have the autonomy and the agency and the choice to sit wherever they would like to sit and to feel like they have a place at that table, so to speak. What is it like for you now to tell your story? Because we did allude at the beginning of the episode that it is it.

This has been a very long time coming, this conversation. And so what is it like for you to share your story?

Steff: 00:55:31

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's a beautiful thing to.

To share with others, and I know, like, it's us, too, here in this room, but there are also so many people who are connected to these stories and who have been kind of had these conversations with you and who listen in and tune in, and it's lovely to connect in with a community of healers and people who understand and know and kind of, you know, you've nodded along at times when I've said things like, we all kind of nod along. Like, I was at.

I was with my friends last night, and I was talking about coming on this podcast today, and someone who hasn't had a church background was like, oh, like, are there lots of podcasts about religious trauma? And we all were like, yep, yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah, yeah, it's a pretty big club out here. Yeah.

But I think, yeah, I had alluded to the fact that, yeah, it took a while to come on here because advocacy and, you know, kind of probably sticking around for too long in that space has done a number on my nervous system. And, yeah, I just needed to take some. Some downtime to. To heal and to really kind of recognize that life had to be small for a little bit.

But then I do have a fire in me. I'm a Sagittarius and a fire sign. Yeah. I kind of really want to take on the institution as well and be like, this is not your story.

This is not your narrative. This is not your divine being. This is not your kind of whatever you don't get to own that. We all. You don't have a monopoly on this story. So it's.

It's nice to be back and kind of be, you know, sort of coming back out of that shell of protectiveness and kind of being small. Yeah. And I've kind of alluded to the fact that I. A lot of that has been writing a book as well, which I'm really excited about.

And I'm excited to kind of, you know, in terms of the, like, the narratives that we hear about ourselves and the narratives that we heal from and kind of find different stories. I think that's so big in trauma healing as well, is like finding a story for what happened. But then what's the story that you want to make of that?

That's strength based.

A lot of my book is about like, kind of all these anti queer, anti trans narratives that are out at the moment that actually no trans people are illuminating the divine and showing that to the world and they're deconstructing harmful gender norms. And that is a gift. And that's a divine gift. And it's a story that.

It's a story of God in the world to kind of break down boxes and break down categories. And so, yeah, I don't know. That's. That's a mix of what it's like to be here today. Yeah.

Sam: 00:58:32

And I was, I was like, this is a very nice transition and segue into your book. Although I feel like throughout the episode we might have another book. Book that we could title, like Things Pastors shouldn't say.

That would make for a really good book.

Steff: 00:58:47

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:58:48

But give us a bit of a picture of what your book is, when we should expect it, when we can hit pre order all of those things.

Steff: 00:58:58

Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Sam. It's.

So the title is Gender Expansive Faith How Trans Lives are Illuminating the Divine, Transforming Feminism and Ending Christian Patriarchy.

Sam: 00:59:13

Oh.

Steff: 00:59:14

And it's a big title and a big subtitle, but I do think I deliver on them. I spent probably three years chipping away at writing it, and it's actually been my own journaling process of, you know, and.

And through that writing process and telling stories, I did tap back in and I'd kind of write a little bit and I'd be like, oh, actually I. I think I need to process this emotional.

Like, I'm getting quite upset about this thing that happened to me and I didn't realize that was still kind of in there. And, you know, it was actually quite a lovely way to journal a little bit about what the stories are of what's happened.

So there's a lot of memoir in there. I talk a lot about my own journey of like kind of discovering that I'm trans.

I share a few of the stories that I've shared today and talk a lot about the harm that has been done as well as the hopefulness. There's a lot of kind of theology and history and biblical interpretation for those who want it.

Because there are two key passages that I still think are used in very harmful ways, Genesis 1 and Matthew 19. And they're at the core of the kind of gay marriage and binary gender norm theology and doctrine of the church that I've come from.

And so I wanted to reclaim them and tell a different story and say like actually these two texts, texts are very queer and very trans and God is showing up in very queer and very trans ways in these two passages. And then I also want to.

I've also talked about things that like, you know, women's only spaces and how do we, how do we think about those in a way that kind of honor the feminist tradition and the space that women need away from men and kind of honor the harm of the gender binary while also being inclusive of trans and non binary people. You know, sport, I kind of talk to men and how I think like men are really struggling in this conversation. Yeah.

But essentially it's kind of about the harm of the gender binary and how we see that in the Bible we see that God is against the gender binary and it's particularly perpetuated through patriarchy and how trans people who kind of like smash that to smithereens are showing us a beautiful divine thing which is to dismantle that harmful. Those harmful categories. So yeah, that's the book. And hopefully ending Christian patriarchy in the process.

Sam: 01:01:43

Yeah, I love that.

Steff: 01:01:44

Let's do it.

Sam: 01:01:45

Oh, amazing. And, and I know because for. I have a friend who's just put out a book.

So I know that it can be a touchy point to like give dates and stuff, but can we expect it sometime soon?

Steff: 01:02:01

Yeah, I've. I'm launching in July on the date. But if you find me on Instagram, Steph underscore Fenton, I believe. Or I also have a website, Stephenson Co.

But if you just look up my name, you can kind of find me. I'm the only Steph Fenton that spells my name. S, T, E F F. So yeah, if you find those, you, you'll probably see me spruking, spruaking it.

And there'll be links and things like that. So. Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 01:02:37

And all of your links will be in the show notes anyway. And also I'll be spruking it so you'll also find it on my page.

But I, before I get to what I finish these episodes with, I want to ask, because like I mentioned before we hit record, your episode is going to come out during the Pride month. And one of the things that I wanted to ask people who were going to be released in this month was present day. What does queer joy look like for you?

Steff: 01:03:10

Yeah, I think there is, I mean just there is so much anti trans.

There's like a wave of anti transness happening at the moment and like complete misunderstanding and again, the same kind of, you know, invisibilizing and under platforming of our voices that I've experienced in church spaces that is just kind of being perpetuated and it's really hard to see it being perpetuated by the feminist movement and by people who have that. So in the midst of that, I think queer joy to me is, you know, in my own privilege of being able to affirm my gender.

Like, I get so much joy from that. I mean, I was telling something the other day and just like it's so bad.

I just, I'm at the gym and I'm looking in the mirror and I'm just so obsessed with myself. Like I, I, I am so joyful or like, kind of just like being at the op shop and finding some sort of clothing that just is just great.

And like, I don't know, like I'm growing a mullet at the moment. And it's just about the freedom to be me is, is bringing so much queer joy and so much trans joy. Specifically. It's, it's really lovely.

I've just moved cities from Sydney to Melbourne to NAAM and meeting people at a point where they haven't kind of met me before and they've only kind of met me as I am now is also a really beautiful thing that's bringing me a lot of joy.

And being able to have so many trans friends and people who, yeah, kind of just you, you speak the same language or so that's bringing me a lot of joy, I think is just spaces to exist as myself. I realize and recognize that's such a privilege because a lot of people don't have the freedom that I do.

And I don't take it for granted, but it really, it really should be a baseline. At the same time, like, I also don't want to Be like, oh, I don't really deserve this. I do. Everyone deserves this. But, yeah, just.

Those are the things. Those are the things that I. Queer joy for me. Yeah. Just feeling good in my body. Yeah. Feeling like me. Feeling like stuff. It's pretty. Pretty cool.

Sam: 01:05:32

I love that. I'm going to. When I time comes to schedule this, I'm going to have to resist the urge to title this episode the One who Is Obsessed With Themselves.

So I'm gonna have to resist the urge to title it that now, but that every part of me wants to. I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people and. But I'm going to put a bit of a twist on it for you in terms of.

I'm wondering whether you can offer some encouragement for the people who might be deconstructing and questioning the triple whammy in terms of faith, sexuality, and gender. What would you say to those people?

Steff: 01:06:17

Yeah, I'd say that, you know, if. If Steph Today met Steph 15 years ago, they would be like, how in the heck. And you scare me so much, and that can't possibly be my future.

I would just say sometimes it is. It's very hard to look forward and see that something different can exist.

And it can be really confronting and scary when you first move into a space where people are operating from such freedom and where you're trying to figure out, where do I. Where do I ground myself? You know, particularly from like, an ethics perspective and like a values perspective in.

And people are speaking different kinds of languages and using different words for, you know, God or the divine or even pronouns. Like, all of that can be incredibly confronting. I'm not sure where you're at in that journey.

You might be at a point where it's actually really liberating, and it's a beautiful gift.

But I guess I just want to acknowledge all parts of that journey and say, just, you know, I'm resisting talking about Tarot, but I'm also into tarot as a spiritual practice. Yeah. Anyway, so that could be a whole nother conversation. But we're in a hermit year, you know, and the hermit is about kind of being in the dark.

You have a light with you, and all you can kind of see is the ground in front of you. And all you really know what to do is just take one step forward.

And I think for me, that definitely is also about, like, kind of that vision of God being the rock and kind of being this foundation in which you can stand and this stronghold and this refuge of, like, maybe you can't see anything else apart from just this little space of safety here. Be kind to yourself. Be compassionate. Keep taking the next step that feels right for you.

And know that, you know, there might be lots to kind of unravel or encounter, but you're doing amazing. And find your people. Find people who can kind of show you. You know, I talked about finding queer people who. Who taught me how to embody queerness.

Like, I didn't know how to do it. You know, find people around you who can teach you the things that are important. And also, like, I stayed in church as well.

Like, for me, maybe it was too long, but also it felt important to stay there, too, and just. Just kind of tweak, tweak the little, like, knobs one at a time, you know, just like, what. What are we going to adjust here?

That's one step towards where I feel like I need to be or I feel like my body is telling me I need to go. My brain is telling me I need to explore. Yeah. And just kindness and compassion and slowness. Yeah. And joy.

Sam: 01:09:12

Yeah.

Steff: 01:09:13

Beautiful.

Sam: 01:09:15

Thank you so much for joining me. I'm so grateful that we got to have this conversation.

Steff: 01:09:20

Me, too. Yeah. Thank you so much, Sam.

And thanks for all the work that you do and just being amazing and creating this space for people to share their stories and connect with others. Yeah. It's so important.

Sam: 01:09:29

Thank you. That's lovely. I. It might be the space that I've created, but it is other people's stories that have, you know, made it go into what it has become.

So I am appreciative of everybody who sits across from me virtually to share their story. So. So I'm very grateful.

Steff: 01:09:50

It's been a joy.

Sam: 01:09:54

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you.

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.