The One Who Chose Freedom Over Certainty

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced, and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface. Welcome, Emily. Thanks for joining me.

Emily: 00:01:42

Hi, Sam. Thank you so much for having me.

Sam: 00:01:45

So before we kick straight into it, I like to give some context for people listening. Where in the world are you at the moment?

Emily: 00:01:54

Yes, I am in Southern California in the US And I live on the unceded lands of the Tongva and Gabrielano peoples.

Sam: 00:02:03

Beautiful. And I am asking all of the people who I'm interviewing at the moment about how on earth are you doing over there?

Emily: 00:02:13

Wow, it is pretty weird. I feel like the thing that's keeping me hopeful is seeing how many other people are upset by this.

For every cybertruck that I have to see in my daily life living in weird, wealthy Southern California, I also see people standing outside of Tesla dealerships with protest signs and people being willing to say, this is unacceptable and being willing to dive into an imagination of, okay, if not this, what do we want?

Look like if everyone were fed and housed in our society, if education was a priority, if we didn't, you know, have to try to mine national parks for resources. But we could say, like, we are the resource and we are each other's resources. So it's pretty bad, and I think it's going to get a lot worse.

But I am not going to go quietly.

I didn't survive fundamentalism and high control religion to become the kind of person who just Shuts up and goes about my way as I see violence and abuse happening on a societal level.

Sam: 00:03:20

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think that's one of the things that I have loved about this podcast, is giving the voice back to the people who had their voices typically taken away and who were silenced and not listened to or not heard. And so I like to start these episodes with a super duper vague question.

And it's vague on purpose for other reasons, but I like to give you the power to start wherever you feel you want to start. So where does your story start?

Emily: 00:03:55

It's so tricky because I feel like there's so many different stories that I want to tell. I care deeply about stories and being a multi storied person and hearing multiple stories that coexist at the same time in people's lives.

So that's a tricky question to ask a narrative therapist. I think the story for me with high control religion really starts with a church that my family started going to when I was 13.

So I grew up in the northwest of the United States, and I was homeschooled, and I'd already had some decent exposure at that point to some of the large institutions like idlp, Homeschool, Legal Defense association, kind of the little niche educational places that I was raised in.

And then When I was 13, my family started going to a church that was pastored by the father of Joshua Harris, who wrote a book called I Kiss Dating Goodbye and has since, you know, in his evolution. That's a long time ago, but he since left evangelical and I think even Christianity as a whole.

But think about where he, as a young person got those ideas. And then think about the community. Like, just imagine what the community would be like that was shaped by.

His father was, you know, a homeschool leader, a pastor, and really wanted to sort of create a little kingdom of other families that believed in not only high control religious beliefs, but high control living. That there was only one right way to live, and it was very narrow, it was very prescriptive.

And the only way we could be safe as people was if we all banded together and just tried to live the same lives as each other.

Sam: 00:05:35

Yeah.

Emily: 00:05:36

Yeah.

Sam: 00:05:37

What was that like in. Like this is probably going to give an insight as to me as a therapist, what was that like for little Emily to do, to be in that environment?

Emily: 00:05:49

It was really funny because I think in certain ways, it was the first place where my family felt like it fit, because we were the outsiders at other churches we'd been a part of. Felt like my parents are always sort of looking for a place like that.

So in certain ways that, you know, high control religion offers, it felt very comforting right here were people just like us. No one was trying to be different or tolerate holding differences. People who are different just never showed up or saw themselves out.

And I'm also a good girl. I'm a rule follower, if you like the Enneagram. I'm an Enneagram one. So I'm very concerned with things being right and good and true.

And so it was a place where that was all laid out for me. Right. Here's how to be a good person. Here's how to be a good daughter. Here's how to be a good woman. Here's how to be a good young woman.

Here's how to be a good thinker and Christian and, you know, student. And so I think there were parts of me that really took to that environment pretty well.

Unfortunately, I think it also was a really harmful environment because there were other parts of me that just had to stay, you know, locked up in order to be safe. They had to hide.

Sam: 00:07:00

Yeah.

And I mean, I think that's one of the great things about being able to look back on spaces with fresh eyes is because we need that nuance to see that actually we did, you know, high control spaces and fundamental religious spaces, whilst are super duper harmful they deal. They still provide us a sense of, you know, stability and structure and safety and in, in certain spaces.

And we, we need that to be able to look at that nuance. Otherwise we're just in that all good or bad situation. I'm curious what impact that had on your just natural child.

Te meant, though, again, I think it was pretty tricky.

Emily: 00:07:48

I always felt a little bit like an outsider.

And when I look back now trying to find the alternative stories, the acts of COVID resistance that I think I had, I think a lot about how I bought in outwardly to certain things, but not merely internally.

Like, one memory that really stands out is I was probably around 14 or 15, which at that age in that community is the time that people start talking about courtship, the idea that your parents would set you up with a, you know, kind of comparable age person in another family in the community to like get married and spend your life with that person.

Obviously, purity culture emphasized spaces like tend to marry off people very young in order to have full control over their lives, but also to like promote this idea that purity is some sort of like, thing that you get a prize for and is the right way to be. So I remember standing around and hearing all these girls talk about, like, yeah, I really, my first kiss is going to be on my wedding day.

And I remember just kind of part of me being like, I'm not gonna agree to that. Like, are you. Like, really? What if I. I don't know. That just seems like a lot.

So I remember just standing there and the integrity part of me was like, just don't say anything if you don't agree to this, you don't have to be held to it. Yeah. And I went to a lot of weddings where the first kiss was in the program.

And as I think about that now, I think about one, how ridiculous and indoctrinated all those, you know, very, very young, sheltered people were. And also how proud I am of myself that, like, I knew, I knew even then how to stand up for what I wanted. I.

I could have some choice in my life and relationships and what I did with my body and whom did I do that with? Yeah.

Sam: 00:09:37

How do you think you had that?

Because I'm, I'm assuming that you were not taught that, that that's just an inherent part of you, because typically questions and your own opinion, particularly as a young woman in that environment, is not fostered. And so how do you think that was developed in you?

Emily: 00:09:56

I think there were some people in my life who, you know, were certainly religious, were not as invested in high control religion and particularly extended family members. And I think they were safe enough. Right. They were in, in a certain way, but they showed that difference was possible.

And I think some of it was just my personality that was cultivated early.

Like, I, I'm a rule follower, but if I was aware even then, like, sometimes the rules change or sometimes the people giving out the rules can be wrong. And I think that's what helped keep me safe and ultimately helped me leave high control spaces and find a lot more like space and freedom. Yeah.

Sam: 00:10:44

What was this like in terms of. I mean, typically for a lot of people growing up in this space, sometimes it can just be the religion of my parents or the faith of my parents.

Was that what it was for you, or was there a very deep intertwined faith in. In God for you?

Emily: 00:11:05

Yeah. I felt deeply that I had my own faith in God and own understanding of God.

And I was incredibly invested in participating in, you know, reading the Bible and studying theology. Like I said, I was homeschooled, so I had a lot of extra time to read. And that was something I was personally interested in.

You know, how do people conceive of God? What is the Right way to believe about God. And then how was that supposed to affect our lives?

I read a lot of like theology about social issues, you know, gender issues. I read a lot of books about the church. I was fully invested in this system. I mean, there were things about it that worked for me. Right.

I was, I'm a white woman. And in certain ways that community can elevate certain aspects of white womanhood as much as it controls them.

Like, I think it was pretty easy for me to do well in that system and to also think like, yeah, this is also something I believe in. I didn't really question my belief even when it wasn't working for me. Right.

Even the way that I was treating faith was like actually making me miserable. I just dug out some old journals recently, which is always a little bit of a trip.

And yeah, I just, I look at them now and I just see such anxiety and shame.

And so many of the ways that I was trying to like, develop a connection with God were just based on me being bad, which was the theology of that community, a very reformed theology, the idea that like, humans are bad inside and we, therefore we cannot trust ourselves and we must conform to these like, rigid systems of society and theology.

Sam: 00:12:53

Was that something that you were aware of at the time?

Emily: 00:12:57

I think so. But it also was the only way I knew how to be right.

The only way I knew how to encounter a God was through rigorous and like self flagellation and repentance and you know, dramatic sort of crying out, you know, where are you? Or what am I doing wrong? Or why is this not working? It was, that was the language that I was given for how to be spiritual.

Like that was my only exposure to anything religious was, was just Christianity and then primarily high control Christianity.

Sam: 00:13:37

Yeah, you said that at some point, even when my faith made me miserable. What was that and what did it look like for you?

Emily: 00:13:47

I don't, I don't know if it, if I always recognize the misery at the time. I, like, I.

It's so tricky because we're always like looking back at our stories and understanding them with new eyes and new, new ways of like analyzing information. But I think I was somebody who really struggled with anxiety and depression.

And I think my face was both an expression of those kind of disorders, but also an encouragement of those disorders.

I think high control groups thrive on people feeling beat down and like they have no agency and are terrified of stepping outside the group or thinking outside the group. So I think even when I was not doing well internally, I'm still performing well enough that nobody checked on me.

And I think I only understand now that I'm out of it, like, oh, that was not a good space for me. And like, sweetie, you were not doing well.

Sam: 00:14:46

Yeah, I mean, I think the. The counter of those systems giving the structure and the scaffolding and the.

And the stability is that when you don't have that or knowing that you always have, that naturally creates a level of fear and anxiety in you. It attracts a certain type of person who finds that comforting, who finds that. That structure safe almost. What was your.

I mean, I know that you've mentioned outside of the recording that you've been out of this space for about 15 years. And so what was the. What was the coming out process like for you?

Emily: 00:15:30

Yeah, it was very relational. When I think about what has changed my life the most in terms of faith, it's been about relationships with people.

And I love that because I think that's how we are supposed to change, right, Is by meeting each other, encountering things that don't fit with our previous paradigm, being able to move forward. So I had a friend in college who had grown up in Europe. She was, you know, born in the US and then was raised in Europe. And so we.

She just opened my eyes to this really different perspective on life that somebody who'd grown up incredibly sheltered, you know, only really spent time with people who were just like me, at least young people who are just like me. And she started, you know, just sort of describing life and fate very differently and was a friend and mentor to me.

e all happened on Twitter. So: 2009

We did not call it exvangelical at the time, but I got involved in, like, conversations with people.

People would use hashtags and just like discuss certain issues, you know, start responding to sort of significant pastors and the things that they would say that were sort of like wanting debate. And then I became part of this group of people who were just writing about faith and life differently.

People like Rachel Halt Evans, Sarah Bessie, community, like, stuff Christian, Christian culture likes. And I, I ended up just blogging and writing for some publications and really just having my own blog and like, writing and community.

But all my ideas were formed in, you know, 140 characters is the limit at the time.

And, like, at 140, like, word sentences, like, I wrote my way out and I was influenced to jump on the slippery slope and ask big questions and notice some more, maybe more historical context or even, like, locality context, that these ideas that I were told were the only right and true ideas were just little pieces of culture that I could choose to engage with or not, you know, and they can be part of my history without necessarily needing to lead my life forward.

Sam: 00:18:11

Yeah. I love the sarcastic part of me loves the irony that this started on Twitter for you. I just.

Emily: 00:18:19

That's just.

Sam: 00:18:20

I love that. The irony of it.

But I'm curious because obviously I know from my own experience and from the experience of so many others, that that process of coming out, whilst there is an inherent cognitive part of deconstructing those beliefs and things like that. What was it like emotionally for you?

Because I know for me, it felt like the ground fell from underneath me, essentially, and there was so much grief and disillusionment and all. What was that like for you, unpacking all of this?

Emily: 00:18:56

Yeah, it happened in my body and my intellectualization in very different ways. You know, on one hand, I was talking about these things, right?

Like, meeting queer Christians for the first time online, like, seeing people have different explorations of ancient sacred texts than the ones I was told. And at the same time, like, I wasn't going to my. The church or my parents anymore after college.

I had, you know, moved back near my family, but I was going to a much more progressive evangelical Christian church where, like, women could be on the pastoral team and, like, pray at the microphone without their express husband's permission. Yeah. So it felt like such a big deal to me that I had to, like, justify, like, why am I going to this, like, liberal church?

You know, still, there was no, like, quality. There was no. It was.

Sam: 00:19:49

It's.

Emily: 00:19:49

Yes, it's very charming to me now that I was so worried with proving to people that I was not a bad person for going to this church and not the one that I was raised in. But I started. My body started reacting in that space. I think I experienced a lot of dissociation in that space, even as involved as I was.

And there was a certain point where I physically could not sit in the service anymore. My body would just. It would just react in a way that was screaming like, get out. Get out, get out.

And that was so weird for me because I was like, no, I'm in a safer place intellectually. I felt like oh, I'm in a safer place. I'm not in the super high control. I'm not in the super intense, you know, fundamentalist space anymore.

Like, I'm normal. I should feel safe. And my body said, no, you're not safe yet.

Sam: 00:20:42

Yeah.

Emily: 00:20:43

So I had just started therapy that time, and it was great.

I was seeing a Christian counselor, but someone who really encouraged me to listen to my body and that it was okay if I just took a little break and I could just send an email and, you know, resign from the volunteer, you know, shifts that I had set up, and, you know, it would be okay. And in certain ways it was okay. It was the permission that I needed to take a break. And then other parts of my community kind of didn't like it.

And I. I lost friendships over that because, you know, I was not going to church for, like two weeks in a row. And I friend.

I had a friend who called me and was like, what are you doing? Like, when are you going to be healed? Like, well, when are you coming back? And I was like, I don't know.

And on that, I don't know was so clarifying and beautiful and good for me. And it was so. It was just. That person couldn't hold it. Yeah.

And so I think it's so tricky because, like you said, the bottom just drops out, but sometimes it's in a place you didn't expect it to.

Sam: 00:21:50

Right.

Emily: 00:21:50

Where you're like, actually, this is good for me. And then someone else in your life or family member or dear friend might just be like, no, it's not good for you.

You're not allowed to have that feel good for you.

Sam: 00:21:59

Yeah.

Emily: 00:21:59

So sometimes the bottom drops out and you're like, wait, that bottom I thought was gonna be there.

Sam: 00:22:04

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think the. The phrase I don't know was one of those ones for me where I.

As soon as I could say that without feeling immense terror and fear and anxiety was so bloody nice.

Emily: 00:22:20

It was.

Sam: 00:22:20

It just so good to be able to say, I don't know, and to not feel like the world was going to cave in in those three little words.

But I am curious hearing, I guess, your progression into, you know, quote unquote, safer or more progressive spaces because something that was for me, and I know for other people, particularly those in the queer community, is that it is really easy to fall into, I guess, safe queer theology spaces. And I know for me, I was like, I don't want to fall into any of those spaces because I'm so terrified.

I'm going to be just as fundamental about queer theology as I was about this shitty theology that I had so far.

Like, just because this sounds really good and it's safer and it's all of these wonderful things, doesn't mean that I'm not going to still fall into the same binary trap that I have always been taught. How did you not do that?

Emily: 00:23:22

I mean, I'm sure I did because what I wanted at the beginning was what everyone wants, which is like, well, I just want to do the healing and then I want to go right back to where I was. Right. So I'm just going to dive into books, Right.

I bought every book in the world about slightly more progressive theology or like, different interpretations of the scriptures that are used particularly to harm queer people. And I was like, if I just figure those things out, right? Like, I want all of this, but not this.

And it's just, it's really tricky because you think like, oh, I can just only remove myself enough that then I can go right back in and have it be better for me. But when the environment is unhealthy, when something is not for you, I just don't think your body will let you or will let you very let.

Let you for very long.

I, I think about, like, sometimes when people break up with somebody and they really want to be friends with that person, they still might need to take a little break from that person in order to figure out what. What do they want a new relationship to look like? What could it look like?

It's really hard to do that while you don't change any of the patterns of how often you spend time together or what you do together. Right. It is possible. Right.

I think especially the queer community has amazing examples of, like, letting relationships be a lot more fluid and maintaining, like, deep, meaningful relationships, even with former partners or things like that that I think are just like, so beautiful and inspiring. But I also think, like, you might need to take a little bit of a break completely from your patterns in order to let something new grow.

Sam: 00:25:05

Yeah, yeah. I'm sure there is a. I wish I was like a nature gardening person because I'm sure there is a gardening analogy in there. I love a good analogy.

And I'm thinking beating and pruning and like this. There's got to be an analogy.

Emily: 00:25:20

Letting the ground rest.

Sam: 00:25:22

Yeah.

Emily: 00:25:22

Like, don't we just have to, like, let nothing happen for a while in order for the soil to be healthy? Yeah.

Sam: 00:25:27

And also, like, the way that you approach the gardening matters. Like, you know, if you're using the same techniques and the same things. Like the same things are going to happen. Yeah.

I'm sure there's multiple gardening analogies that we could use there.

Emily: 00:25:42

We were gardeners.

Sam: 00:25:43

Yeah.

Emily: 00:25:44

So, so helpful.

Sam: 00:25:47

Oh, goodness. Okay, so you mentioned that obviously you had the, the stereotypical people reaching out, going, hey, you don't seem okay. You haven't been at church.

What was that like in particular with your family? Like, you are, you are coming out of that space. You are starting to say, like, there's harm happening here. I'm not okay in these spaces.

How does that go down with your family and how do you navigate it?

Emily: 00:26:15

Well, my family are avoiders.

Sam: 00:26:17

Okay.

Emily: 00:26:18

And so I use that to my advantage. I come from a large family.

I'm the second of six siblings and I was the first one to sort of make a change, but I was able to do that under the radar because there's a lot of distraction.

And actually this is also something I think my parents did really well in spite of the community they raised us in, is they believe we're all adults who can make our own decisions. Beautiful. And as soon as we were adults, they were sort of like, yeah, we're here to support you, but just figure it out. Right?

Like, get a job, file your taxes. If you want to go to college, figure out how to pay for college.

Like, there was not a lot of, I think, the oppressive watching and questioning that I know a lot of people raised in high control religion got from their parents. So I use non confrontation to my advantage and my family's style.

And it was pretty easy for me to just sort of like not go to church, but not have to like check them up on that.

And my parents are not invasive in the kinds of questions they ask or, you know, they weren't reading my blog and then demanding that we talk about it. And I'm so grateful for that because I think that is the thing that has allowed us to have a close relationship to this day.

Close not in the sense that maybe we talk about what's hard in our lives or the ups and downs of it, but close in the sense that we can spend wonderful time together and we can focus on the things that we have in common and that, that can be really, really special. And I know not everybody's parents are available to do that or loved ones or family will behave like that.

And that's something that's like totally out of your control.

But if you're, if your parents are like reasonably either avoidant or will believe you if you Say like, oh, actually, you don't really want to talk about that, but thank you for your care. I think you can go a long way.

And again, being able to be close to family, even if you have vastly different ideas about faith or spirituality or politics or how to live a good life.

Sam: 00:28:31

Yeah, I think it's really tricky when families in particular have the notion that if you don't all believe the same, that you can't have relationship. And I think that's typically where, like, relationships should be based on more than just believing the same thing.

But I think it's really tricky when you come from that all or nothing fundamental space to be able to hold that nuance, even in relationships.

Emily: 00:29:00

Yeah. And something that I had to come to was realizing if my parents have a problem with my life, it's about their beliefs.

It's not really about my behavior. It's not something that I can change. It's if they believe that, like, how can I respect and honor their right to believe that?

And, you know, certain people's beliefs might make their lives harder or a little bit more miserable. And if they're worried about my salvation, that's because of the situation that they're in. That's not something that I can, like, fix for them.

And, you know, even parents can grow and can come to maybe a little more nuanced view of the world or their loved ones over time.

When I think about, like, how much I was changed by relationships with people, I also think that that's possible for some parents and some families as well, that they might find a little more openness in encountering you or find a little more safety in the idea that, I don't know. Just because you're modeling that.

Sam: 00:30:00

Yeah.

Emily: 00:30:02

I think that's been really true for my family and even for my siblings as we're. We're all in different places, but I think we're all really close and believe in each other, and that goes a long way.

Yeah, I don't need to change them, and they don't try to change me.

Sam: 00:30:18

Mutual. It's almost like mutual emotional consent around, like, you are you and that is okay, and I am me, and that is okay. And we can coexist without.

I mean, we can coexist with that constant converting which we are all raised on.

Emily: 00:30:34

Like. Right.

Sam: 00:30:36

So. Yeah, but that's a tricky thing to.

Emily: 00:30:39

Get out so hard as somebody who, like, does feel more free now. Right. Like, I want to evangelize back. I want to be like, you guys could leave. Like, that place is weird. Right.

Like, it doesn't seem like making any of you happy either. But part of my work is. Is to not do that for other people anymore, the same way as I do not want it done to me.

And that it doesn't mean that I don't, like, get stressed out before I'm spending a lot of time with my family. It doesn't mean that I need to take, you know, don't need to take breaks. I take a lot of breaks. I have learned the skills to regulate around them.

And.

And I regularly visit the idea of, like, the grief over things we don't share, like, that does bring up a lot of grief in me or places where I know we just can't be close or we. We just disagree. It's not that those things aren't painful or that I don't struggle with that internally.

It's like, I think healing is keeping going on your internal work and being able to stop yourself from the actions that don't work and tend to cause relational harm.

Sam: 00:31:42

How have you been able to do that? Because I know that, like, grief is. I think religious trauma and grief are inextricable. Like, they. They are one in the same. They.

You can't have one without the other, I don't think.

And so how did you navigate the grief around that and the changes that were happening, even though there was still relationship there, it looked different. And even the grief around, you know, you're asking a lot of personal questions and doing your own internal work.

And I imagine that that changes the way that you relate to the God that you had always been raised with. And so there is now grief around your own faith and your own spirituality.

Emily: 00:32:27

Yeah. Grief is not easy for me. It's something that I am very skilled at avoiding until it. Until it, like, cannot be avoided. Right.

Like, grief will demand your attention at some point.

I think writing is something that has always helped me to be physically and externally in dialogue with grief and to recognize that I think all traditions or all cultures have something to say about grief that is a very human experience. Right. Like, we all die. We all love people and things and places that die.

And because of that, I think it was really helpful for me to look outside of specifically a Christian or a fundamentalist tradition, but to explore graduate grief as a human thing. And that made it a little less scary or intense and gave me some new ways of dealing with it or relating to grief.

And to think of grief a lot more as something that you will contend with throughout your life rather than something that you will Resolve once and for all or conquer. It's. It's much more about like, how do I recognize grief as a friend doesn't intend to hurt me, but probably does.

Intends to offer me something that I need to work through when it shows up, you know, and, and that can be the grief of losing friendships or the grief of losing hopes that you had for your future or the grief of, you know, not knowing about the afterlife. And once you had, like very, you know, big ideas about an afterlife.

Grief doesn't let you go very far before it will stop you and say, I am here and I'm going to sit on this couch until you deal with me. I also think like choosing to find portals into conversations with grief through playing a sad song 40 times or watching a sad movie.

You can choose your own set of skills for how to do that. But there's like, how do you, how do you invite grief in regularly enough? How do you build tools to converse with grief?

And then how do you develop an understanding of yourself as like, I am just a human, like I'm just another mammal on this earth, like, trying to do the best I can and allowing the grief of that to exist alongside you?

Sam: 00:34:51

Yeah. I love, I love the mentioning of how other cultures and people are experiencing grief because I co.

Facilitate just a local grief support group group which is primarily focused around bereavement and things like that. But grief is grief. They're just different types.

But I typically find myself saying, you know, in white Western society, we are pretty at grief, we're also pretty at death. But both of those things, we don't typically do that well.

And so I love, I guess, the reminder that that gives to people to look at how other cultures are and navigating grief and what can we learn from that as well? I love that. I think that's a beautiful reminder for people to be curious. Curiosity is like my favorite word. It's the word of the day.

Emily: 00:35:47

And I think about curiosity like it requires safety. Yeah. To be able to be curious and playful or thoughtful, like, you do have to have a certain level of safety.

And that probably needs to be built first.

Sam: 00:36:00

Yeah.

Emily: 00:36:00

When you're leaving high control religion, like, I think of places and people who were just safe to let me be friends, mentors, therapists who just tried to hold space for me as I was reacting and acting out the grief of losing something that I had thought would be a part of my life forever. Yeah.

Sam: 00:36:24

I'm curious. There we go.

Emily: 00:36:27

I didn't even.

Sam: 00:36:28

It's not planned. I say it far too often. I need another phrase instead. But anyway, I'm curious what it was like for you, deconstructing and how you navigated.

I guess the pressure that some people feel, and I don't know whether you felt this, but the pressure to reconstruct something straight away, as opposed to just deconstructing and allowing, but to reconstruct something new and better.

Emily: 00:37:00

Yeah, for me, it was all about pleasing people who I knew would be worried about me if I really admitted how much I had stepped away from that shared belief. And so at first, I was, like, trying to, like, reconstruct something that would just make them happy. And that's where I think up.

I think I ended up sort of taking a slower way on my deconstruction. But maybe that was safer for me. Right. Like, I did have time and space to weave my way out.

And what I thought about it was like, I'm not reconstructing a belief system. I want to find out what feels good to practice or be a part of. And I found some places that did.

I found some spaces that were religious that didn't trigger my religious trauma. And one of those is an Episcopal church in Oregon, where I was living at the time. That was really.

When I think of it now, it's such a, like, deconstructed Episcopal church because, you know, we had this, like, liturgy and ritual, but there were so many spaces in it. You know, spaces for silence or spaces to just light a candle or spaces to just hear a song being played and not have to sing along.

And I loved the idea that all we needed for participation was each other. So, you know, there were. There was a reading, there was a homily.

There were some things, things built in, but who got to read those was not based on this hierarchy of who had completed the deacon training. Right. It was like, oh, will you read passage two? Or, you know, will you. Will you read this prayer?

Like, it really was this place of people just showing up, not even, like, needing to profess belief, but only just showing up and, like, practicing a ritual with community. So that was one of the first spaces where I feel like I could.

I could reconstruct something that felt different enough because I didn't have to agree with everyone in there. We didn't even sit around and, like, sort out, what do you believe about xyz?

Which was like, the only thing that church and religion was in my upbringing, which was like, a new book by Wayne Grudenham would come out and then we would all believe that. Right? Like John Piper would publish something, and we'd be like, oh, my God, we need that.

So, yeah, I didn't have to listen to, like, white men at all anymore, which is so beautiful and healing for me, because even the Reverend there was, like, a black woman and, you know, just brought something very different to the idea of spiritual care or spiritual presence that was just based on her and who she was.

Sam: 00:39:32

Yeah.

Emily: 00:39:33

So I think what was helpful was that I didn't have to participate in that space. I wasn't leading it. I wasn't creating it. I was just showing up or participating in it. And it was very low budget, unpolished.

And that was a place I got to sort of express spiritual practice in a way that felt familiar enough as still being part of a Christian tradition. I still think of Christianity as, like, my first spiritual language.

It is a little bit hard for me to conceptualize spirituality in a tradition that I was not raised in and that people who look like me probably colonize and capitalize on.

So I always want to be really careful that I'm participating only as, like, an observer or in a respectful way, rather than sort of in a colonizing, like, well, that looks great. I'll take that for myself and then sell it on the Internet sort of way.

Sam: 00:40:26

Yeah, Now I own this.

Emily: 00:40:28

Yeah. Yeah, we're so good at that. Oh, my gosh.

Sam: 00:40:32

Yes.

Emily: 00:40:32

It's like, one Yoga training. Like, now. Let me tell you about yoga spirituality.

Sam: 00:40:37

Yeah.

Emily: 00:40:38

So I. I was also deconstructing. Right.

I was starting to deconstruct white supremacy and capitalism and colonization and so many other things at the same time, because all of that was happening on Twitter as well, so. And. And I was reading not just, like, deconstruction books, because, one, there weren't really any at the time, except for Dr.

Whannell's, but I hadn't come across that yet. But I was just starting to read about, like. Like, US History from the black perspective.

I'm starting to read about economics from, you know, shared resources perspective.

I was just starting to learn about psychology and healing from trauma and things that really had nothing to do with, like, deconstructing my belief system. But we're profoundly deconstructing in the very small world that I had grown up believing in.

Sam: 00:41:29

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about deconstruction is that you are just deconstructing religion or you're just. Just deconstructing the Bible. And I'm like, oh, no.

Like, I deconstructed, like, you Know patriarchy and government and money and monogamy and marriage and like.

Emily: 00:41:46

Yes. And gender.

Sam: 00:41:47

Like, I'm deconstructing it all. Like, let's dismantle. Yeah, this.

But I am curious, deconstructing all of that and all of the different systems in society, how did that change the way that you personally related to things like divinity and spirituality and faith, that once you start pulling apart all of these other systems can make you feel pretty doom and gloom about some of that stuff? Like, what was that like for you to try and go, well, how do I feel about this now?

Emily: 00:42:22

I think in a way it was freeing because when something is being taken away from you anyway and you let it go, it feels like I wasn't spending all of that time and energy and money on trying to hang on to something. I just let it go. And I did get a lot of freedom from that. And I know not everybody does, but.

But I think I found something beautiful in being able to look at my experience and say, well, this is very human. And also the idea of, like trying to create and explore and relate to divinity is also very human.

So now I'm not like a deconstructed person who's off on her own. Like, I am just like a part of humanity. And that feels deeply meaningful to me in a way that just being part of Christianity didn't.

So I think I actually got something. I joined something as much as I left something that's.

That's also what I want to tell people is like, it might feel really lonely right now, but it doesn't have to always feel lonely because you get to be a part of other types of communities that are still focused on values and goodness and service and thinking, but it just might not look like church. So I don't really spend a lot of time trying to explore, understand a divine being.

But I think in not having to do that, I am experiencing some sort of deep meaning.

Sam: 00:43:57

Yeah.

Emily: 00:43:57

Does that make sense?

Sam: 00:43:58

Yeah, absolutely. I, I imagine that the, the social media landscape and the deconstruction space has come a long way in 15 years.

And you've seen a very interesting progression over time. And I'm curious about what you have noticed, but you just sort of mentioned like, you can land in other spaces.

And so I also want to ask about what do you do when those spaces start to mirror the old spaces?

Emily: 00:44:27

Yeah, I think the thing that's been really helpful for me is realizing, like, oh, we're on like a two to three year cycle, right. Like, there's a new Person who pops up, everybody gets really excited. They say brilliant things.

People who are just fresh out of religion are like, thank you, someone. Oh my gosh, we are so excited. Let's be a community for each other.

And that is really wonderful in certain ways and also really dysfunctional in certain ways. And then something will happen and the community will shatter. Some people will stay and some people will be devastated.

And then eventually even that community will sort of peter out with the people who are still there. But something new and shiny will pop up.

So I say that not to diminish or like disrespect anyone who is currently feeling, like, disappointed by someone in their community or, you know, like really protective of their community right now. But I just want to say, like, you're experiencing something very normal and it's not as new as it feels like it is. And you are going to be okay. Yeah.

And the thing I come back to over and over again is like, you can trust yourself. There will be a voice inside of you that says something about this feels off.

And the quicker that you are able to learn to listen to that voice and say, okay, I trust you. I don't know what it is, but I will take a step back from this person or this space or this group or this friendship.

Like, the sooner you're able to say, like, okay, I'll step back enough to listen and figure out what I actually want to do, the healthier you will be if you keep looking for the new group that will actually be healthy enough so that you can finally heal. You won't heal. Yeah. Because healing is not finding the right group that will hold you in just the way you need to be held that you can heal.

It's to be. Learn how to be safe enough. Find people who are safe enough that might be with like a knitting club instead of a deconstruction group.

Group that might be in therapy. That might be like meeting people who don't have religious deconstruction or high control religion as part of their story.

But everybody has something. So you will find a common ground with most people because trauma is pretty pervasive in our violent, capitalistic world.

But I think again, find some basic safety and then start doing some work to read or think or listen outside that space and start noticing how do I respond to certain things? What in me pushes me forward. Do I want to listen to that? What in me is asking me to step back? Do I want to listen to that?

And I think that's how you build healing and discernment and healthier communities. So I'm not really surprised by much anymore. I also took a very long break when I started graduate school to become a therapist.

I sort of knew I needed, like, all mental focus on deck. And Twitter was very different. By that time already, Donald Trump had just gotten elected to the United States the first time.

So I knew I just needed to focus. And then I went through some, like, personal relational issues that really also took more of my focus.

So I was, like, completely out of online or social media deconstruction spaces for about seven years, eight years, and now I'm just stepping my toe back in. I've heard it was wonderful. Yeah. Like, these are my people. Like, I get it.

This is why when I want to talk with, like, passionate, deeply feeling, thoughtful people who are trying to heal themselves and the world, like, even my clinical work focuses on people who have religious trauma or deconstruction experiences. Because I'm like, people who are willing to leave a space that's harmful for them are. Are the most courageous and marvelous people.

And that's who I want to spend time with and help, like, lead and thrive. But I also just. I'm like, I can't. I can't get too invested in this anymore because it's just not. Yeah. Not good for me. Yeah.

It doesn't bring out the best in me. It brings out somebody who's like, a little snarky and mean.

Sam: 00:48:41

The cynic.

Emily: 00:48:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:48:45

And okay, I want to.

I want to talk about your work as a religious trauma therapist in a moment, but I do want to ask because you've mentioned self trust a few times, and I think we both know how crucial that is in terms of, like, healing and growth and moving forward. But it's also really freaking hard to develop. Right.

So I'm curious what that was like for you to develop that sense of self trust and inner voice, especially growing up in a space place that essentially diverted all authority out.

Emily: 00:49:19

That's such a good way to put it. Yeah.

Diverting all authority out towards parents, towards theologians, towards pastors, towards men in particular, towards straightness and whiteness.

It's really hard because I think, especially in sort of the phase of high control religion that I was raised in, the idea that, like, you had to break a child's will through physical violence was incredibly prevalent. Yeah.

And that's one of the first things that I think a lot of us experience is this idea that combined with, you know, Jeremiah 79, your heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

And then the physical you know, beatings that come through Christian spanking really do damage your intuition and your ability to trust yourself, to respect yourself as someone who has values and ideas that are, you know, worth listening to in certain ways. So part of healing that as an adult, I think was recognizing that what happened to me was wrong and harmful.

Because I think one of the ways religious trauma perpetuates itself is it is a very minimizing, I think trauma in general is minimizing of the experience. Right. People certainly minimize trauma and, you know, we'll say that's not that big of a deal or why, why did that really hurt you?

And one of the first things it's important to do is find someone safe enough who will believe you and say, yeah, that was really fucked up and that shouldn't have happened to you and I'm so sorry. And then being able to offer that validation over time to yourself.

So first, like, just like plugging back into that voice and saying like, you're here and I believe you. And then the second thing I think that was really helpful was to do it in really small, non consequential ways. Yeah.

So the idea of like ordering food that you would like to eat is incredibly challenging, you know, not just because of diet culture, but, but because like the idea that I could want something and fulfill that want rather than I could want something and that was a sign that I was selfish or that was a sign that I was sinful, or that was a sign that I should submit to some other authority is so prevalent. It. So like starting really small, like, what do you eat? What do you enjoy doing with your time? Right.

Like pick a hobby that requires some time and energy to put into and practice it until it doesn't feel selfish anymore.

Sam: 00:51:46

Yeah.

Emily: 00:51:46

And then I think something else I used in my 20s was dating. I had grown up in this like weird courtship community of like, no one dated and it was like wrong to date.

So in my 20s when I was like, you know, an adult living on my own, I was like, like, I'm gonna figure out this dating thing, but I'm gonna learn how to make it fun.

Sam: 00:52:02

Yeah.

Emily: 00:52:03

So I was like, my goal in dating is not to like find a person because I don't even think there's one person that I'm supposed to be with.

Like, my goal in dating is to find myself, to learn how to be myself in maximum two hour context with other people in my community who also want to do fun things like go to restaurants and sports games and like an improv local Theater troupe night. And that was so good for me because I learned how to not, like, need so much for other people.

Not, like, expect that someone would fulfill me, learn how to speak up for myself, enjoy a lot of different kinds of things, and learn how to leave if I wasn't having a good time after 30 minutes, or learn to stay for an hour just so I could get a good story and tell my girlfriends later. Yeah, so I think that was. That was the other thing that I sort of used to, like, build my intuition. Because at first I was so compliant, Right.

Like, I went on every day like it was a job interview for being a wife rather than, like, no, we're just two people who are literally strangers who want to see if we can have a nice chat over some, you know, French fries. Like, so I had to, like, do things in practice. I'm alike. Like, let me just get in there and figure it out kind of person. And so that's what I did.

And sometimes I still don't know what I want at a restaurant, but most of the time I do and I'm able to order it. Sometimes I still don't know what I want out of spirituality, but most the time I'm like, oh, this. This would be fun. I'll try that for a while.

And I've learned to listen to myself even when it doesn't make sense. Yeah. And I think that's what's really hard is sometimes you get an inclination like, hey, this is is right for you, or, this is not.

Not a great something for you. And it's really hard to listen to that when you're like, no, everyone else loves this person and, you know, thinks they're fine. But if you're.

If you're willing to learn and listen to yourself, you'll be okay when the actual information drops and you find out, like, oh, that person was, you know, not treating others well the whole time, or, you know, worst case scenario, someone is not for you, that's fine. That's normal. We're not for everyone.

Sam: 00:54:15

Yeah, absolutely.

Emily: 00:54:16

Is that. Was that an answer? Yes. No. Absolutely wasn't.

Sam: 00:54:20

No, it was absolutely an answer. And. And I love. I typically do the very practical start small, start minimal to no consequences. All of those sorts of things.

Like, what is the worst thing that is going to happen if you pick an ice cream flavor that you don't like? Like, right, because you're picking something you've never eaten before, what's the worst thing that's going to happen?

You work out that you don't like that ice cream and you never have to eat it again. Great. Like, let's. Let's not eat ice cream if we don't like the flavor of it. Like. And so it's.

It's being able to start in those super duper and seemingly, like, on the surface trivial things, but it's just being a bank of information that tells. Tells ourselves, tells our body, tells our nervous systems.

I have the capability to make choices, and I don't need to divert that out to somebody else. Yeah, yeah. Okay. There was something else I was going to mention about the last thing that you meant. You said, and I've completely forgotten it.

That's okay. It's all right.

Emily: 00:55:28

That's.

Sam: 00:55:28

That happens. It will come to me the most random of times, though.

Emily: 00:55:34

I think about that. I'm like, the really important things will always come back. I say that when people forget something in session or when I forget something in session.

I was like, you know, I think it was important. It'll come back to me.

Sam: 00:55:43

Yeah.

Emily: 00:55:44

I'll catch you the next loop around.

Sam: 00:55:45

Yes, absolutely.

And as you mentioned it, it literally just came back, which was that you were talking about, like, making it make sense or like, being able to say no and things like that. And I was like, it's a really wonderful point to be able to get to the part where we can go.

If my gut says no, we can work out the details later, right?

Emily: 00:56:05

Yes.

Sam: 00:56:05

When we're in that moment, we don't have to make sense of everything in the moment. We can do that a day later, a week later, a month later with safe people that we can do that with or in safe spaces on our own.

But if our gut says no, it's no. Like, it's a wonderful space to be able to get to that point. Yeah.

Emily: 00:56:28

Right. Worst case scenario, I practice listening to myself.

Sam: 00:56:31

Yeah.

Emily: 00:56:32

Maybe later I'll find out I was overreacting or a fool. Doesn't matter. My goal right now, after high control religion, is to learn how to trust my intuition.

Even if she's a little overreactive, that's okay.

Sam: 00:56:44

She's overreactive for a reason also.

Emily: 00:56:46

Yeah.

Sam: 00:56:47

Yeah. Right.

Emily: 00:56:48

In a world where, like, every single thing had an eternal consequence. Like, I was just having a conversation earlier about this idea that, like, you could sin and not know it.

Sam: 00:56:57

Yeah.

Emily: 00:56:57

How terrorizing that idea was, particularly to children and the idea that, like, I could be doing something wrong and not even know it.

Like, how unsafe that feels in your own experience of the world and how kind and tender and careful you have to be to yourself as you are protecting and rebuilding that part of you.

Sam: 00:57:20

Yeah, absolutely. When you decided to become a therapist, did you automatically want to specialize in this space or did that come a little later?

Emily: 00:57:32

Sort of two paths. I actually started in seminary where I was studying this idea of spiritual formation.

And the big question on my mind was, what does healthy spirituality look like after religious trauma or spiritual harm? And I am so glad that there are people who have theological ideas of that and are writing about them.

But I was like, in my first semester and I realized, like, oh, I actually don't want to be studying this. I want to be doing this. So it wasn't immediate.

I actually had moved to another state and schooling is incredibly expensive in the United States, so it didn't feel like it would be accessible to me for, you know, for a while. But then some opportunities opened up and I was able to do graduate school while I was still working. And that made it more financially possible.

But I really actually put it aside because I knew I didn't want to only offer people my own story in terms of healing. I'd seen that not go well for both the people who are offering support and for the people they're trying to help.

So I think I had this very strong ethical aversion to the idea that. That the only thing I would bring to people who had been harmed by religion was, like, my experience.

Because that just creates an authoritarian dynamic just already sort of present and fraught in a, you know, therapist client relationship. So I really put a lot of that aside and I was like, I'm going to become a really good trauma therapist. What does that look like?

So I did, you know, my graduate school that included an intensive practicum in narrative therapy, which is actually based in Australia, and is a very collaborative, holistic, attempts to decolonize, to name power structures and to, like, deconstruct them in certain ways. And that fit super well for me because I had already done that with religion in my life.

So to be studying psychology and deconstructing psychology at the same time just felt like, so exciting and good for me.

And then it's really only been recently in the last couple years, as I've started a private practice in California, that I've been focusing more on specifically religious trauma.

Sam: 00:59:48

What is that like for you? Navigate.

Because, I mean, one of the biggest conversations that I have with a lot of people in this space, particularly in the therapy space, is we need more than lived experience. But lived experience combined with professional knowledge and professional experience can be incredibly powerful combination.

And so what is it like for you working with a demographic of people where you can relate to some of the things that they're sitting with and how do you navigate your own stuff whilst working with them?

Emily: 01:00:23

Such a, such an important question. It's always something I have to pay attention to.

It's never something I get to feel like I've achieved because the moment I do that, I know I'm just in a danger zone ethically. I work with people who come from high control religious backgrounds that are not like mine.

That's something that I think is helpful because what I'm doing is I can notice patterns even if I don't know the exact right details. So I'm very familiar with the like figures and movements within evangelical Christianity of the last, you know, 40 years.

But I, and I have some basic knowledge about other groups like Jehovah's Witness, certainly lds, Latter Day Saints communities. And I notice patterns of high control religion being the same. But my experience shapes the questions that I ask.

It never shapes the outcomes that I hope for people. Those outcomes get to be in someone's own hands.

And that's something I'm so protective of because I know what it's like to only be given one option for moving forward in your life and I don't want to be a part of that.

So it's something I hope guides me towards like asking a question that opens up a space or names how dysfunctional, like a certain theologian or movement was. Like, I have a lot of knowledge about those. I watch cult documentaries.

Like I know all the good ones, but I never wanted to let it shape the outcomes. And it's something I pay attention to, you know, in my own therapy and personal work.

I think it helps that I have a little space not just from my own story, but also from, you know, had a long gap of space from deconstruction communities and conversations too. It's not something I spend a lot of time in. Like, I don't tend to read a lot of. I'll buy your memoir, but I might not read it.

I want to support everyone's like, right to tell their story. That's so beautiful. Like I want to buy the time that you put into that.

But that's not where I'm going to spend a lot of my clinical learning or even just like personal enjoyment time. I would rather read something way out of my space than something that feels like work.

Yeah, but it's always tricky like, like you might think you feel totally fine about Something and then something comes up in a group or clinical oneon one setting and you're like, oh, I forgot about that.

Gotta set that aside and take that to go like work on refining some more or doing my own trauma healing on like, like, you know, it's not something, it's something that you get to a place where it doesn't come up a lot, but when things come up, you have to, you pull out your tools and like go deal with that in order to be a good clinician or to be a good, like public person in this space too, because I think that's an aspect of it.

Sam: 01:03:11

Yeah.

Emily: 01:03:12

You and I both have like Instagram, like social media presences and that's like another way that we're sort of like kind of wearing a therapy hat. But like it's not, we're not on duty, we're like, the sign says off duty, but we're also like, carry this job with us everywhere.

Sam: 01:03:25

Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of balance that is needed, I think, in this space.

I, you know, particularly in consuming content, you know, other memoirs, docos, all of that sort of thing. You can't, well, I can't let that consume me. I've got to read other things, I've got to watch other things.

It doesn't mean that I don't watch those things or read those books, but it is about balancing it.

And, and I, I love, I guess you saying that like it doesn't happen often, but I think it's one of those things that when we don't think it's going to happen at all, that's where we fall into the danger of that's when it's going to happen. Right.

That's going to, or that's when you as a practitioner is, is going to do unconscious harm to someone because you don't realize what's happening. You're not as present and as aware.

My biggest thing in terms of like lived experience and the power that it can bring is, is kind of an offshoot of how you sort of said that it informs your questions is that I don't want my clients to feel like they need to educate me on the religion or the system or whatever it is that's my job.

And, and, and I think that I've heard far, far too many stories of people who have landed in therapist office who hear the word cult or they hear the word high control or whatever that language is for you. And it's, it's sensationalist and it's a spectacle. And so the questions are coming, but they're not good questions.

And they're questions that make you feel like you're on Netflix clicks all of a sudden, or you're on, you know.

Emily: 01:05:08

Yeah.

Sam: 01:05:09

Program. Or you've got your own little, like, therapy doco happening at the time.

And, and I find largely that's coming from obviously, you know, a really harmful perspective, but it's also just coming from a really uneducated perspective as well, in that they just don't know.

And they might not be meaning for it to be sensationalist, but uneducation can make it seem like that when you are not going out and you know, okay, your client has presented with this particular belief system, go out and, and do a quick Google search, do some reading, like, all of that sort of thing. So, yeah, it's.

Emily: 01:05:46

Yeah, if there's a group that has caused harm to your client, there's probably a community of people talking about it on Reddit.

And you should go in and be like, what are the four things that everybody's talking about that maybe I don't have to ask my client directly, but I should know. My client probably experienced or. Or might. Might have some sort of, like, space that they want to explore around and be able to ask questions.

Like, certain rituals in most high control religions happen at really specific ages. So things like that might be really important to know, like, okay, what age might.

Might be very sensitive or tender based on what ritual was happening to that person at that time.

Sam: 01:06:21

Yeah.

Emily: 01:06:22

I'm also trained in EMDR for, as a trauma modality. And there are certain ages that come up a lot, not just because of development, but because of. Of specific groups, rituals.

Sam: 01:06:33

Yeah, absolutely. I think even, you know, just understanding the environment, you don't need to understand doctrine and beliefs and ins and outs.

Like, you don't need to be an expert in that, but you can understand the themes and the dynamics and things like that that can be at play in those spaces. Okay. To shift to something more lighter, because it's one of my favorite questions to ask people, which is what.

What does joy and peace look like for you now? Post high control religion.

Emily: 01:07:06

I was just thinking about this. I had a really good day today and I really love my life right now. I think part of it is being in Southern California. The sun was out today.

I am a huge fan of the newest Lady Gaga album and I will tell you, there is nothing like driving your car down the highway. I might even drive near the ocean. So that made it extra good. But the sun was out the Windows of my car were down and I was like, screaming Lady Gaga.

And that was pure joy. Like, I just felt so free. Maybe I could have done that on a walk. My car is electric, but maybe I could have done that on a walk as well.

But I think just, like, being open to very simple things in life. Right. Like, I was told I had to save the world and change the world and all these, like, very big, powerful tasks.

And really, like, I have to take care of myself. I have to honor my ethical commitments in my work.

I get to take care of my family and loved ones and, you know, try to make a difference in very small ways, not in big ways, you know, to try to stake, stake, take stands against political and powerful harm that's happening. But even recognizing that there's not much I can do or have to do about that is freedom and is joy.

Like, I'm going to do what I can, but I don't have to do more than that. So, so wonderful. After a life where I was told, like, I would always be on duty for God in every way. Yeah.

Sam: 01:08:43

Off duty, I. I just had, like, a flashback of that. Always have an answer for your faith type of mentality. Like, and actually just like, 1.

Being able to not have an answer, not respond if you don't want to have no response. Have an, I don't know, response, like, whatever that is. Yeah. A random, random moment. The things that come back.

Emily: 01:09:09

Those verses. Yeah. Those little phrases and pieces of scripture. They are really helpful if you're ever doing trivia.

Like, I feel like I'm much better at Bible Jeopardy categories. Wonderful.

Sam: 01:09:18

Yeah.

Emily: 01:09:19

But, yeah, there's a lot of, like, space in my brain that's taken up with phrases I really don't really want anymore.

Sam: 01:09:26

Yeah, absolutely. And actually, random side note, before I ask, what is the final question to everybody on this show?

How nice is it, though, when you forget those things? Like when you forget the Bible verse, when you forget what song it was? How nice is that?

Emily: 01:09:44

Yeah, it's. It's really wonderful. That's powerful to be like, oh, I don't. I don't even know.

Sam: 01:09:50

Yeah.

Emily: 01:09:50

I mean, I used to be able to list the books of the Bible backwards, but, like, I don't do a lot of them. I know that.

Sam: 01:09:56

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's just, just. I love those random little. There's so many really, like, poignant, lovely, beautiful moments of healing, Growth. Growth.

And then there's those random ones where, like, you forgot something that was hardwired into you, like, a decade ago. Or whatever it was. I love those little random ones where it just is like, oh, I actually forget that line of that song, or whatever it is.

I love that. I love those little random, random ones.

So I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people, because I think it can feel overwhelming, especially when you are first out of that space, when you are first deconstructing or when in some communities you have been kicked out or excommunicated or isolated. And so what would you say to those people who are frank, fresh in that process?

Emily: 01:10:58

I want people to know that I believe them because I think it's really hard when something terrible has happened to you that you didn't want to happen. And it feels like. It feels like you're the only one going through it. And I believe you.

I believe that what happened to you was bad and should not have happened to you. And we can start from there. You won't always feel this way. And what's beautiful is, like, you're not the first person to experience this. Right.

ed in the river in Twitter in: 2009

So I think that the quicker that you can sort of learn about other people who've deconstructed other things, or, again, like, I encourage people to read outside of their culture of origin or faith of origin. The quicker that you're able to say, like, oh, other people have experience too, the quicker you're able to say, like, I think I might be okay.

Sam: 01:12:02

Yeah.

Emily: 01:12:03

Not just if that group accepts me back and I'm healed or not.

If, you know, the version of people who are deconstructing from that group finds me, but if I can find some other footing somewhere that's safe enough, that's how you start being okay.

And 15 years out, like, I can see there were a lot of things I was really worried about at the time of, like, trying to get right that just really don't matter or at least don't matter to me anymore. Like, I don't know, maybe they matter to somebody. Maybe they'll matter to me again, but they don't matter to me right now.

And I get to invest in other things in life. Like, life gets to be beautiful. You get to take all of your values with you, even if you don't take the religion with you.

If you were taught love and justice, and those are some of the reasons why you had to leave. Like, you take those with you. They don't own morality or goodness or community.

No matter what they said about you not able to find those things outside. Like, they tried to scare you about the outside world because you would be okay there, and they didn't want that for you. They wanted you to stay.

So if any of those are helpful, take one. But you're gonna be okay. Like, you are. Like, life is hard in other ways. Yeah, we gotta fight a lot of fascism right now around the world.

But, yeah, like, you're gonna be okay. You just will.

Sam: 01:13:27

Yeah, I'm. I'm going to add an additional question.

Actually, I'm not going to finish with that one, because I want to ask you to speak to the people who are struggling with their families, who are. Are specifically politically aligned.

Emily: 01:13:45

The thing that I've been so helpful is, like, just take a lot of space. Like, skip holidays. Yeah, call in sick. I don't. I don't care what you say. Like, lie about why you can't be there.

Do not go to spaces that are harmful to you. It will be less. It will be painful to you. It will be less painful to you. Some of you. You know who you are. This is a word for some of you.

I'm like, if you believe. We got that. That was. You can leave it.

If you don't want to be around people right now because they are watching terrible news, they are supporting terrible policies, they are celebrating harm and violence against people, don't be around them. Yeah, go spend some time with people who you do like and let that be okay.

And if you can practice doing that, you will be closer to being able to decide how you want to move forward than if you just keep showing up and getting triggered and saying things that you have to apologize for later, or even finding out things your parents believe that you wish you didn't know. Take a break from your family for a while. Like, mute them on social media. Do not engage.

Do not know what they believe, if their beliefs are likely to be terrible. Avoidance works both ways.

There are a lot of things about my family that I don't check up on because it would not be helpful to our relationship for me to know that person's specific political beliefs or glee about things that I feel like are harmful. I need to take care of myself.

And if I'm going to be in a room with that person and stay regulated at a later point, it's not helpful for me to know what they believe or what they're celebrating right now. I just. You gotta. You gotta stop. You gotta stop showing Up. You gotta take a break from them.

And then I think you'll be closer to deciding, how do you move forward? Because some people can move forward and build something else that's meaningful with their family and some people can't.

And I'm sorry, it's not your fault. You can't change their beliefs. Like, the question I get asked all the time, like, how do I rescue my parents from the, like, this belief system?

And I'm like, you can't. That's where I'm like, I told myself, like, emily, go to your grief corner. You gotta cry about this. You can't fix it.

You just have to feel how devastating it feels to see someone that you love and who you know is kind and good and compassionate, like, join themselves to violence and abuse at a global scale.

Sam: 01:16:25

Yeah, absolutely. I'm not going to say anything to that because it was far too good. So I'm just gonna go with thank you.

And also, I would actually caveat Australians listen to that also, because we might not have a certain person leading our nation, but we potentially, at the time Emily and I are recording this, we are gearing up for an election. And if that election does not go well, it will also not bode well for our nation. So same applies.

Just because we might not be in the US does not mean that we don't have family members who are still supporting the same ideology. So listen up also to that.

It's easy to think, just because we are in a different nation and we don't have that same leader, that we are immune and our families are immune and. And that is rubbish, essentially. So we can still take the same.

The same tips and the same advice and the same suggestions into our own circumstances and spaces also. So thank you for joining me.

Emily: 01:17:37

Thank you so much for having me. It is an honor to talk with you and to just speak with your community of listeners.

Sam: 01:17:44

It's.

Emily: 01:17:44

It's like, I know how precious, precious it is to invite someone into your space. So thank you. I take it really seriously.

Sam: 01:17:51

Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface.

I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories.

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Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward. Take care.