Bonus - Deconstructing Monogamy & Exploring Polyamory with Ann Russo

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

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I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to this special bonus episode of beyond the Surface.

In these episodes, we take a break from the personal stories and I get to chat with experts on all things related to religious trauma, cults and deconstruction. These conversations are foundational and educational.

They provide deeper insights and understanding in into the complexities of the experiences we hear in the stories.

Whether you're just beginning your journey, this is the first episode you're listening to, or maybe you're looking to expand your knowledge in general. These episodes are packed with valuable information that will help you navigate wherever you are. I'm your host, Sam, and this is beyond the Surface.

Welcome to this month's bonus session of beyond the Surface. Today we are doing an episode all around deconstructing monogamy. Monogamy and exploring diverse relationship structures.

So before we dive into it, I'm going to welcome our guest. So welcome. Anne.

Ann: 00:02:02

Hi, Sam. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here today and talk about non monogamy.

Sam: 00:02:07

Yes.

So for a little bit of context, for people just to sort of like ground the episode, where in the world are you and what brings you to this space of diverse relationship structures, non monogamy and the intersection with religious trauma and faith deconstruction.

Ann: 00:02:27

All the easy questions. Yeah.

Sam: 00:02:31

Yes. Obviously I have a habit of like double and triple barreling questions for people, so apologies.

Ann: 00:02:39

No, no, I do it too. So. I'm Anne Russo. I am a licensed therapist here in the United States in New York on Seneca land. I am also a theologian. I. I suppose. Yes.

I have a master's in theology, so that makes me a theologian. And I run a private group practice here in the States and I'm now writing a book through Pesi that talks about religious trauma.

But what brought me here truly is I was raised in a non monogamous household. Growing up, I just didn't know what that was exactly, and there wasn't really a term for it.

I Just knew that we were an alternative family, but we were a family that was quiet about our existence, you know? And as I got older, I realized that monogamy doesn't work for a lot of people. But people don't have the language, they don't have the understanding.

So we see just a lot of challenges around monogamy.

So I jumped into it as an educator and an advocate for therapists specifically to understand that all relationships are not monogamous and that we need to know how to work with folks that are in different types of relationship styles.

Sam: 00:04:14

Yeah, absolutely. I think what might be really helpful before we sort of like get into the crux of the.

The actual questions and the content of the episode is a little bit of some definitions, because this might be a space that somebody might have absolutely no idea about. I think most people sort of know what monogamy is, but we're going to define it anyway just to sort of, you know, make it abundantly clear.

So I guess the.

The four things that come to mind that typically get used in this space and that might get brought up in this episode that I'll get you to define is monogamy. The acronyms of EE M and CNM, which typically will be used interchangeably sometimes.

So ethical non monogamy or consensual non monogamy and polyamory. How that might be different to E.

Ann: 00:05:08

M. Okay, sounds good. Let's do it. So.

Sam: 00:05:12

So I'm a dive straight in kind of person.

Ann: 00:05:14

No, I love it. No, I love it. And I. And I think that it is so important that you're bringing this up because we can even talk around some of these terms. Right.

So monogamy, two people in a committed.

Sam: 00:05:32

I.

Ann: 00:05:33

This is. You know what?

Actually, Sam, I want to take this a step further because I'm going to define monogamy as I understand it, But I don't feel like monogamy is ever really truly defined because it's the go to. Yeah, right. So everyone just says, oh, I'm monogamous, but we don't really talk about what does that mean.

So when I think of monogamous, I'm thinking of a sexual, emotional, physical agreement between two people to have a romantic relationship.

Sam: 00:06:09

And only with each other.

Ann: 00:06:11

And only with each other. Yes. And only with each other. Yes.

When we use the terms ethical non monogamy or consensual non monogamy, talking about people agreeing to have a different structure that may involve one or more additional folks, and those structures look so vastly different. And I think that's the point that you're trying to make. And you know, and in these spaces, too many folks don't like the term consensual or ethical.

And it's because there's this assumption that if we're saying non monogamy that we have to say that it's ethical or consensual, when in fact, just the term itself, non monogamy, already tells you and should tell you that these people are consensual and ethical. So why do we have to add that on top of it? Right? Yeah. And then polyamory, when I, I mean, I think of it as just two people dating.

See, and this is the thing, like, there's so many vast ways of explaining things. Yeah. So, you know, so I like to use the term alternative relationship styles because I feel like that says, okay, it's not monogamous.

They're doing something different than monogamy. What does that mean? And I, and I feel like it gives empowerment to all folks. But granted, in my work, I do say E M. Yeah. Because for obvious reasons.

Sam: 00:07:47

Right.

Ann: 00:07:48

But I, but I do like. But I do like alternative relationship styles because they're different than what we're told is the, the norm.

Sam: 00:07:58

Yeah.

Ann: 00:07:58

For us humans. Right. Yeah.

Sam: 00:08:02

And. And I think even within the non monogamous community, people will use terms interchangeably anyway. And it's, it's less.

I think sometimes we can get hung up on labels. And I, and I don't.

I'm not usually one for definitions or labels or anything like that, but for people who are new to this space, sometimes definitions are needed to understand what we're talking about so that they can go into the rest of the episode feeling a little bit more informed. But even these terms will be used interchangeably.

You know, my wife and I are polyamorous, but we will use E M in certain spaces and poly in other spaces. And it is just, you know, it's less about the label and more about the dynamic that is present in that relationship.

Ann: 00:08:53

It. And how are you defining your relationship as polyamory versus E M, if you don't mind asking.

Sam: 00:09:00

Yeah, I mean, honestly, we. We sort of just use them interchangeably.

But we initially started using E M as terminology because it was at the time descriptive of how we sort of came to the conclusion that actually we think monogamy is pretty fucking shit and overrated. And we were like, actually, I'm pretty sure we can do this far more ethically and far more better.

And so we kind of just like came to that and we it was the term that we heard as well when we sort of started deconstructing monogamy. So it was kind of just the term that we latched onto at the time.

And then over time we've realize that actually that feels a little constrictive as well.

And polyamory allows us to have the flexibility for our dynamic, our non monogamy dynamic in our relationship to evolve and change into different spaces over time and so depending on where we're at in our life and what our needs are at the time.

So I think polyamory just became a much more expansive term once we started exploring it more fully and had more of an understanding of what we wanted that to look like for us. So. Yeah, I love that.

Ann: 00:10:15

Yeah, I know, I love that. I love that.

Because what you just said is everything expansive and for what it means for the two of you as you navigate relationship and life together.

Sam: 00:10:27

Yeah.

Ann: 00:10:28

And that's the beauty of it.

Sam: 00:10:30

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think a good place to start in this because obviously a significant portion, I mean, it's a religious trauma and faith deconstruction podcast.

So most of my listeners, most of the stories that I've had on the podcast have grown up in high control faith spaces or in fundamental faith or cult spaces. And monogamy is, is the default. It's the only acceptable relationship structure.

It was the only acceptable relationship structure for my wife and I, which is why we automatically were in a monogamous relationship for I think it was about the first six years of our relationship.

And so I'm wondering, you know, with that good old fashioned masters of theology, which, to be fair, makes you far more of a theologian than half of the people running the churches, I feel like. So how is monogamy framed in those high control spaces for people who've perhaps not really put any or too much.

Ann: 00:11:31

Thought into that, it comes back to, unfortunately, the subjugation of women in many ways and taking away power from women.

So if you go back and you really read, as fun as this is for listeners like the church fathers, and you read the actual primary sources, you see the way that women are spoken about versus the way that men are spoken about. So women really are property owned, they're the dirt under your heel, their temptresses, while also needing to be virgins.

So we're kind of coming out of that framework. And as, as time goes on, I mean, women are just consistently viewed as less than.

So the marriage structure is really put in place from a religious perspective to control women. And I Mean, we can talk about, you know, land, because I mean, there's so, there's so many moving pieces. But it all is about control. Yeah, right.

Yeah. So. And women being less than, less than men.

Sam: 00:12:48

Yeah. What have you seen in terms of like, why it is the only acceptable relationship structure?

Because as we know in these spaces, marriage is put on a pedestal. It is like, it's the bee's knees, it's the gold standard. It's what you're supposed to get to.

But there are the caveats, which is that it has to be a monogamous and a heterosexual relationship marriage. So.

Ann: 00:13:11

Sure. So. And I find that interesting too.

Like, I can say, like, you know, like if we look at like the idea of Adam and Eve or the way that specifically the Bible speaks about marriage, yoking, one man yolks with one woman, another Christian, like, it's very much like this is the way we do things and we do this to have kids and we procreate and we make more Christians. And so it's. So it is biblically founded.

But at the same time, I want to say which is interesting is you find a lot of non monogamy in the Bible as well, which is really very interesting. Right? Yeah, but it's kind of, that's kind of looked at as, oh, that's how things were done with those people. And it's always a man with many wives.

Right. So again, we're back to that misogyny, patriarchal perspective. So, I mean, so it's so just like monogamy is the gold standard.

This is God's design for us. Man joins woman. Right. Let's ignore the polyamory that was going on in the Bible.

But if we do that was what they did back then to create more Christians. Right. Or more faithful of Yahweh. And we've just inherited this belief system and this tradition through all these years.

When you see it in all kinds of religious and cultural spaces, I mean, clearly, right. This, this idea of monogamy, and yet it doesn't seem to work very well for at least half of the population. I want to say more.

So there's, so there's a significant issue there with doctrinal beliefs and actual human nature.

Sam: 00:15:02

Yeah, I'm, I'm not even sure that there, there is probably a portion of the population that wouldn't even necessarily know whether it would work for them because they're too terrified to even consider that anything outside of monogamy could actually be healthy and, and attachment based and stable and all of that. So I think it's really tricky to even work out whether someone is.

Is open to it or enjoys non monogamy when you know, anything other than monogamy is just the automatic default and, and not just the default is the acceptable. Right. I think. As well as the other.

Ann: 00:15:42

Exactly.

Sam: 00:15:43

Yeah.

Ann: 00:15:44

Well, you know, it's interesting what you're saying here because even going beyond just could this work for me? It's demonize. Just the mere thought.

Sam: 00:15:53

Yes.

Ann: 00:15:53

I had a class that I, that I posted. It was a class, specifically a continuing education course for therapists to learn how to work with clients in non monogamous relationships.

This was probably the most popular post I ever posted. And guess what? You're going to hell. Your horrible person. I can't believe you're doing this. What's wrong with you? Yeah, and I'm.

And just like, I just, just hate it.

And I thought to myself, my gosh, I'm offering a class for therapists to help people in these relationships already like navigate them and have the right language to help these clients. And I'm demonized. And then I started thinking about what that must be like for a person to come out as non monogamous in this world. Holy heck.

Sam: 00:16:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Ann: 00:16:50

No pun intended.

Sam: 00:16:52

Yes. I mean, right. And we just. Yeah, absolutely.

It's absolutely, you know, pun intended and necessary because it's, you know, it's a very real aspect because the belief around monogamy in faith communities, as soon as someone starts to question that, even just like you said, the mere thought of that, what impact does that have on someone's sense of identity and their self worth in just as a human in the world.

Ann: 00:17:24

Yeah. And I really, you know, the more I study and the more that I learn, non monogamy is not a choice. And I want to say it like this.

Can you make the choice to be in a monogamous relationship? Sure. Miserably. Because who you are is not that. Now there might be some people who. I'm curious if this is me. I want to explore this. And that's my.

And I understand that or this didn't work for me, but some people inherently are not capable and don't want to be monogamous.

Sam: 00:18:03

Yeah.

Ann: 00:18:04

So. So in those situations, like what do you do? Like you're like, you like come out to your family.

I mean, how do you even begin to navigate some of those spaces?

Sam: 00:18:14

Yeah.

Ann: 00:18:15

You know, and the challenge behind that and then needing when you do, if you choose to do that, if it feels safe for you, having a therapist who can support that process of coming out.

Sam: 00:18:29

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think that's, that brings up a really good point because I think a lot of people, even within the community will have differing opinions as to whether non monogamy is an identity marker like sexuality. We, you know, we now. Well, I say we now know most people know that sexuality is not a choice.

There's still the subsect people who, who think it is, but we know that it's not. And there are some people who think that non monogamy is a lifestyle choice as opposed to.

Based on what they value and what they believe about the world and how they choose to show up in the world as opposed to an identity marker. And so what are your thoughts about that?

Ann: 00:19:11

I think it can be both. Yeah, I really do. 100%.

Sam: 00:19:16

Yeah.

Ann: 00:19:16

Because it's, it's, it's the. I want to be expansive. I want to try this. I want to see if this works for me versus I don't know how to be anything but this.

Sam: 00:19:26

Yeah, yeah.

Ann: 00:19:28

You know, so it's. And then I would also, you know, and I would want to say this to the listeners. Whether it's their identity or a choice.

Don't people have the right to live a life that feels happy and healthy for them? Yeah, no one's forcing anybody else to do anything. This is a personal decision or identity.

Sam: 00:19:53

Yeah, yeah. And I, I typically will also have the argument that people who are monogamous are choosing to be monogamous. Right.

And yes, they might be choosing it based on conditioning they. Or indoctrination or just, you know, secular society beliefs.

There's still a choice there for them to, you know, we'll see it in movies of or read it in books where they have the conversation around like are we exclusive? And all of that sort of language that we see.

And essentially in that language they are just saying, are you not going to screw around with somebody else? Are we going to be monogamous? And so there is still a choice there that even people who are monogamous are making. Even if it's not a conscious.

This is what we're making.

Ann: 00:20:43

You know, it's interesting that you just said that because, you know, human beings, I mean, we do know that we are not naturally monogamous species. Otherwise we'd be with the first person we were ever sexual with and not desire others. I mean, that is just biological.

So we are making a conscious choice. And some of us, I think we can be outliers to that as we see with other identities.

So There might be some people that's like, yes, I've made it with you, that's the end of it. I feel nothing for anybody else. Right. But, but it is interesting that we frame monogamy is like the standard. This is what I am, this is my identity.

This, we're all like this when infected. The total opposite is true.

Sam: 00:21:31

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I, I would agree that I think it can be both an identity marker or a choice.

Like I said, my wife and I were monogamous for about six years of our relationship and marriage. And we were not miserable by any means. We were just doing what we had always thought we had to do and not miserable.

But we made a choice to do something different once we realized actually we just don't particularly like this concept anymore.

But I think even just like if we actually start sort of, I guess talking about what that deconstructing monogamy looks like, what do you see as, as typically like the struggles that people go through when they do start challenging those deeply ingrained ideas about relationships and monogamy?

Ann: 00:22:25

Religion is always number one. That is always the most difficult part for people to deconstruct.

So that's its own, almost its own separate entity just deconstructing sexuality in general and relationship styles in general. And because of the way that non monogamy has really been demonized, people have a very narrow and scary perspective of what it might mean.

Yeah, sanctioned cheating, you're going to be lying. I'm going to feel upset. I'm going to, I could never do such a thing. I'm going to be jealous. And like there's just. So how do we do this?

Oh, we're, we're doing this because we're unhappy in our relationships. I mean, there's so, and it's never, the deconstruction is never really around the potential joy.

It's always around these fears, these deep fears of what this could mean based on this narrative. That's not accurate. So what I do with my clients is we do a deep dive into self. Like we don't even need to talk about monogamy or non monogamy.

You know, I, I, I, when I run groups for people open to exploring non monogamy or want to explore it with, with their partners, typically it's, it's people that are opening up a relationship. We don't talk about non monogamy very much. We actually talk about what works for you in relationships. What are your values?

What are your, like, how do you already show up in a relationship what's your communication look like? What's your sex drive? What's there? How do you. Do you envision your needs being met? Are you like. So it's like these.

These are much bigger conversations that take place, you know, and then we start to look at. How can we start to explore what non monogamy means? And that is a really different answer for everybody.

And that's the beauty too, isn't it, though, Sam? Because you can. If you are able to communicate to that level with your partner or partners, you can shift and change and.

And you should shift and change because you're going to grow and you're going to learn new things and something might work for you or not work for you. It that's normal for any relationship.

Non monogamy is giving you the permission to be authentic about the challenges of being in relationship and learning how to communicate instead of, sadly, you. The structure of monogamy. And everyone just follows this structure without even thinking about what it means or how they do.

You know, it's like, well, I just do it because this is how you do it. But communication skills, needs and wants. I feel like those things really get missed a lot.

But I've also found sometimes people will come back and say, you know what? Non monogamy right now doesn't work for me. Me. Yeah. And it's not. It, you know, and it's not working for me because of this, this, and this.

So at this time, I need to put a pause. I need to look at this within myself. That is amazing. Yeah.

This is about a learning journey more than it's about a relationship structure being, you know, stamped on your forehead.

Sam: 00:25:54

Yeah. We don't want another rule book. Right. Like, you know.

Ann: 00:25:57

Exactly.

Sam: 00:25:58

We don't want. That's not. That's kind of like the opposite of what we want.

Ann: 00:26:03

Yes, exactly.

Sam: 00:26:05

Yeah.

Ann: 00:26:05

I think it takes a person who is willing to do hard work within themselves to find success.

Sam: 00:26:16

Yeah.

Ann: 00:26:17

And non monogamy, truly, I do believe that.

Sam: 00:26:21

Yeah.

And I mean, I think typically, you know, I talk a lot about faith, deconstruction with people and on the podcast and things like that, and there is an unlearning process, but typically it does often come back to, what do I think? What do I value? What do I believe about the world? What do I believe about myself and all of those different aspects. But what does that pro.

I mean, I know that that process looks pretty similar when deconstructing monogamy, but there is some added difficulties, particularly if you might be deconstructing and your partner is not.

Ann: 00:27:05

Yes, absolutely. I don't want to say this, but that might be a challenge for that relationship to truly survive.

Sam: 00:27:15

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's, it's a different conversation when you have one person who is deconstructing their faith versus the other person.

Because often, you know, we can allow, you know, that mixed belief system to coexist in a relationship, providing values are still the same and all of those sorts of like, core foundational aspects. It's a lot trickier when deconstructing monogamy because it can change the way that you value the structure and foundation of your relationship.

And that is really difficult.

Ann: 00:27:53

It is. And I have seen folks navigate this by. And there is still deconstruction that is going on here for sure.

But I have seen relationships where one person chooses to remain monogamous. Yeah, yeah, you know me.

Sam: 00:28:14

Relationship.

Ann: 00:28:16

Yeah, yeah, yes. I, this is monogamy works for me independently of you. Yeah.

And yeah, so it's, I mean, I, I see it as this amazing tapestry of possibility if people could just have the conversations.

Sam: 00:28:36

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Ann: 00:28:38

You know, and it doesn't look the same, it doesn't look the same necessarily for partners choosing to open up for an individual who's choosing to be non monogamous, who has several partners that are not hierarchical, which, I mean, and, and what I really love now too is this is something that I didn't see when I was younger and growing up in this space is there is a real support some for the outlier.

And what I mean by that is if a couple opens up, okay, well, we're going to open up a relationship and we want to see about bringing in someone else into a relationship. Before it was like that person almost wasn't a person. They were like a kink or a fantasy.

And now I see that in this space, it's the understanding that everyone involved, no matter what position you may be in, has thoughts, feelings, ideas, needs and wants and should be. And everyone should be considered. Considered equally. And I really, really love that because, yeah, we're all people here.

Like, no one's a toss aside, right? Yeah. So, yeah, that's something I've seen changing in the space a lot.

Sam: 00:29:59

Yeah. I. From everything that I have seen with either couples that I know or partnerships that I know or in the.

In client relationships is that the couples who have mixed monogamy relationship structures have superhuman communication and boundary skills. Like, they're next level good, even for a relationship therapist.

They are next level good, but they not everybody likes a half and half pizza, but it can be done and it can be done well. And it's just about knowing, knowing the boundaries and having like insanely good communication skills. Nothing is impossible. I, I don't think so.

But what have you found the most difficult thing for people to unlearn during this process of deconstructing monogamy?

Ann: 00:30:54

Possessiveness.

Sam: 00:30:57

Yeah.

Ann: 00:30:59

Yeah. There is this underlying belief that we own who we're married to or who we're partnered with, even if we don't mean to do that.

And that possessiveness comes with oftentimes a jealousy or insecurity around the relationship.

Sam: 00:31:16

Yeah.

Ann: 00:31:16

And that is tough.

Sam: 00:31:19

Yeah.

Ann: 00:31:19

And I wonder sometimes, you know, if when we're, when we're all living that so much, even in non monogamous spaces and we're like, we got this, we got this, we're good, those feelings can still pop up and we still have to look at those feelings. So I feel like that that is a journey that I think is pretty continuous and may surprise you when it pops up.

It doesn't mean that non monogamy won't work for you, but I think that that is, that is a challenging piece of the journey.

Sam: 00:31:50

Yeah. Yeah.

Ann: 00:31:52

What about you?

Sam: 00:31:53

Yeah. I think the biggest thing that we had to comprehend and sort of like unlearn was this idea that of.

And this like, idea of soul mates and that you had one person that was, you know, designed for you that would meet all of your needs.

And then we kind of went, actually that's really unhealthy and really unrealistic to think that one person is going to be able to meet absolutely all of your needs. Like, that is just a ton of pressure that neither of us wanted.

And so, but it, you know, you are taught, particularly in the faith of both of our origins, that there is this one person that God has designed for you that you are supposed to spend the rest of your life with. And I think that was, I mean, we were both pretty lucky and that we had deconstructed quite a lot of stuff already before we had hit this point.

So we didn't necessarily have all of the underlying fear of like, what is going to happen to us if we start thinking about this.

But there was still a lot of unlearning to do around some of those ingrained beliefs around relationships and soul mates and, and all of that sort of thing. So.

Yeah, but I always get really interested and confused when people use jealousy as a reason that monogamy and non monogamy can't Work because I'm like, I've seen far more jealousy and monogamous relationships. The non monogamy, like jealousy is just an emotion that needs to be understood. It's not like it doesn't have to be a problem.

There's jealousy in every relationship irrespective of how many people are in that relationship. So it's just about like, where is this coming from and how do we understand it and how do we move through it? So. Yeah.

Ann: 00:33:45

And so important to that saying that. Because with therapists, unfortunately, I've heard so many therapists say to clients, maybe it's not for you because you're jealous.

Sam: 00:33:57

Yeah.

Ann: 00:33:58

And that is just harmful to this client, you know. So that's why that training piece is, I think is so important. Yeah. What I also, what I really like that you said is this idea of soulmate.

I just can't help but think about friendships.

Sam: 00:34:14

Yeah.

Ann: 00:34:16

And you can have these deep bonds with people and it doesn't take away from a bond from another person. We're. We love and connection is not finite. It is an infinite thing. We put.

As soon as it seems like sex is involved in some way or a, or a certain type of connection, all of a sudden it becomes bad or wrong.

Sam: 00:34:41

Yeah. Yeah.

Ann: 00:34:43

You know, and, and that's something that I'm trying to deconstruct more myself is why. What is it about? What makes it different? I have three very, very close friends. I love them all so much. Everyone's okay with everybody.

I'm having sex with two of them. They're upset. Like, I, you know, I'm trying to understand what is that, what's going on there, you know. Yeah. And if.

I think, if we can just recognize too, like you were saying, like the pressure that gets put on people. We're not, again, we're not. This is not how we're even built.

Like, even if we again remove monogamy, like, or non monogamy, like, we are social creatures who function together.

Sam: 00:35:26

Yeah.

Ann: 00:35:27

So how, how are we supposed to say, you need to support me in every single possible way in my entire life? Go. Yeah.

Sam: 00:35:37

Yeah. It's wild.

Ann: 00:35:40

Yeah.

Sam: 00:35:41

I blame, I blame all of our shitty misconceptions and shame around sex on purity culture. I'm pretty sure it's. It got. And, and patriarchy. But I mean, purity culture is rooted in patriarchy, so they're kind of one in the same.

But I'm kind of like, I'm pretty sure purity culture is to blame for this generation's shame and misconceptions. Around sex in relationships.

Ann: 00:36:06

But, I mean, you're speaking to my clients right now. You're talking. I mean, this is real. This is. And it runs deep. And you don't even. They walk around like it's not there in the world.

You know what I mean? And then when you come into therapy and you see just how many people have been truly impacted.

Sam: 00:36:25

Yeah.

Ann: 00:36:25

By this. It's astonishing.

Sam: 00:36:27

Yeah, absolutely. How can people. Or what does it look like for people to start to create a new framework for their relationships once they have.

You know, they're in that process of unlearning the beliefs and deconstructing it, and they want to be able to create a new framework that feels authentic to them. What does that look like for people? Typically?

Ann: 00:36:48

It looks like first, very separate work, really understanding who you are as an individual. What do you value? What do you need? What do you want and how do you want to show up? That's another important piece. And I think that can get lost.

Sam: 00:37:08

Yeah.

Ann: 00:37:09

How. How can you show up in relationship? How do you want to show Relationship? And then from there we bring in.

So typically, I'll be speaking as though a couple's opening up a relationship. Bring in the other couple, and we'll slowly start to talk about these things. And what do they mean and what do they see as a possibility?

And if they have an ideal scenario or, you know, there's. There's lots of. There's a lot of different things to talk through. You know, it can be, well, I just want to be able to have sex with other people.

Okay, well, what does that mean exactly? Does it mean friends are included in this? Does it mean it's strangers? Does it mean you have sex with this person more than once?

Do you have it at your house where you share with your part?

I mean, so it's like we really are, like, digging very deeply into what seems right for them with the caveat of, you may try this particular thing and it doesn't work.

Sam: 00:38:12

Yeah.

Ann: 00:38:13

And you have to maybe go back and like, and talk and explore again. So it takes a great sense of self awareness in these therapy sessions and a great deal of what I want to use.

Feeling empowered in your own consent and your own needs to. Like, there should never be a situation where you buckle under the pressure of someone else's needs and wants, because that's not going to work. Yeah.

Sam: 00:38:43

Yeah.

Ann: 00:38:44

And I. And I see that, and it doesn't work.

Sam: 00:38:48

Yeah. I play.

I typically will sometimes play what I call the what if game, where I'm Just like we're just gonna go, well, what if this happens and what if that happens?

And what if it's this person and what if I feel like this and, and we play the what if game not to just like pull everything apart, but to just be able to come up with all of the different things so that we can reach a place of what. What am I comfortable with? Like what boundaries do we need to be able to make this work?

And I always will put in the caveat of what boundaries do we have or do we need right now? Because we need the space for those to evolve and change once we start actually doing whatever it is we now want to do and live.

And we need, they need to be able to evolve.

Ann: 00:39:38

Absolutely. You know, and only because I have the permission of my parents will I share this because I think that it's very interesting.

So watching my parents be non monogamous, I, I'm gonna. I was raised with my mom, my dad and my dad's partner until I was 14, and then my dad and his partner from then on.

And they're celebrating their 40th wedding anniversary this Sunday actually. But they've been. Yeah, yeah. So they've been non monogamous, you know, pretty much my whole life.

And I've watched this very interesting evolving take place. My dad is not, it's not about sex for my dad, it's about an emotional connection that may or may not involve a sexual relationship relationship.

And I think, and, and I think that that's kind, that's neat because it's like I have these deep intimate connections with people that could create jealousy or insecurity if this were a monogamous relationship. So this becomes a non monogamous relationship because of the level of connection while his partner is, is more geared towards or was.

Because they've evolved more geared towards, you know, sex clubs or you know, gyms and things of that nature where it was like, I don't want an emotional connection.

Sam: 00:41:05

Yeah.

Ann: 00:41:05

So it's like. But that took a lot of conversation and, and as time has gone on, they've shifted a lot.

Maybe someone dated someone for 10 years or like my dad had a part another partner for like 15 years that he would seem not very regularly, but it was a deep partnership that fulfilled something within him that his live in partner didn't fulfill for him. You know, so it was the, their ability to communicate and they had very strong conversion.

And that being for listeners is finding joy and your partner having joy with other partners or other experiences. And because that conversion was so strong. It was like. I don't even know how to explain to you.

Like I, I remember hanging out with my dad and his partner and they each had another partner and the five of us went out to go eat and it was just so loving and kind and was a little family, you know, and it was, it was just such a positive experience because of where, how these people were able to just be so open and so authentic and so loving and so respectful of one another.

Sam: 00:42:26

And I think one of the things that I wanted to talk about in this episode was misconceptions that people have around non monogamous relationships. And I think that that's a nice, like a lead into one of those, which is that non monogamy is just gonna up the kids. Right.

Like you can't have kids in non monogamy spaces. It's just gonna screw them up.

And so as a kid of a non monogamous family, how do you feel about that and what do you say to those people and that rubbish misconception.

Ann: 00:43:02

Non monogamy does not screw up kids. What screws up kids, kids is being told by others that non monogamy is wrong. Yeah. And feeling the rejection and the stigmatization from society.

Growing up my family, I mean, of course, like every family, you have ups and downs and personality traits that you're like. But as a unit, as a unit, there was a lot of love in my family unit.

Like I didn't think there was anything wrong with the way that I was raised with lots of different people and strong connections. Like, I, I think it's a wonderful thing. What I think can harm a child is if a parent.

And I know this is tough, I just, I know that it's tough not being honest. Yeah.

Because if a child finds out, because monogamy is the norm, if a child finds out by accident, they can make assumptions around people are cheating, people don't love each other. Those children are receiving the same messages. So that can be a very scary, hard, traumatizing place for a kid.

So I think it's very important to age appropriately, be honest about what that structure is for your family and that it doesn't mean that that's the structure they have to follow, but that's how we, how we do it.

But I think if you teach children how to be healthy human beings and honor themselves and respect others and learn how to communicate in healthy ways, like that's a great example. You know, the issue is not whether you're non monogamous or monogamous.

The issue is how are partners treating each other, how are they communicating with each other and what are they showing the children?

Sam: 00:45:03

Yeah, yeah.

And I think we are slowly seeing the importance or parents seeing the importance of Highland highlighting diversity for kids growing up, irrespective of whether they're seeing that diversity in their own home. But just because there are, there is diversity in the next home, perhaps, or in the homes of their friends. And, and you're right.

You know, I typically will use the same analogy for queer people, which is that, you know, it's not that they think it's wrong or it's that the way that society treats them or tells them that it's wrong. And so I love that you use the same analogy for kids in, you know, non monogamous homes that they're not taught that it's wrong.

They don't think that it's wrong. They're struggling with the fact that other people are telling them that it's wrong.

And I think that's important for people to understand, particularly for parents who might have kids who are in a monogamous home. But it doesn't mean that they don't know other kids who are not in non monogamous homes. So.

Ann: 00:46:13

Yeah, exactly. At the end of the day, who are the players in the game, not how many players are in the game.

Sam: 00:46:21

Right, yeah, yeah, absolutely. What other misconceptions have you seen about non monogamous relationships?

Ann: 00:46:31

Oh, the people that are not monogamous cannot stay committed.

Sam: 00:46:35

Yes.

Ann: 00:46:36

That is a huge yes. That's a, that totally have a problem. They can't commit to one person or they can't commit.

I think that's very funny actually, because there's such a level of commitment that has to go into non monogamy.

Sam: 00:46:53

Yeah, it's like commitment.

Ann: 00:46:56

Yes. Right. It might be different levels of commitment.

Sam: 00:46:59

Yeah.

Ann: 00:47:00

But like those are agreed upon levels of commitment between you and the people that you're making that commitment with. And you're like there to do that. And so I think it's exactly. It's commitment on steroids. Yeah, 100%. Yeah.

Sam: 00:47:17

I think one of the things that I will often hear or see is that like you sort of said it's just sanctioned cheating. Like you are just giving someone permission to cheat or it's, you just want to slot around.

And typically that's, that's said to the women obviously, or the, you know, female identifying partners. And, and typically to that I say, well, if you want to slide around, go for it, just do it safely.

And like, if that's what non monogamy looks like for you. Great, we love that.

But I think there is this misconception that that is what all non monogamy looks like and that's really harmful because like you said, sometimes it can be about creating emotional connections. And I mean asexual people can be non monogamous. Right. And there's no sex involved.

And, and so, or you know, I think it is just this misconception that again, everything in relationships just result revolves around sex.

Ann: 00:48:19

Yes, yes, exactly. And I, and I love what, I love that you said if you want to slide around, go for it. Just be safe. Exactly. Yeah, just be safe. Just be, just be honest.

Like any time that a person is using power to harm somebody, no matter what kind of relationship style you're in, we got a problem. Right.

But, but I've seen non monogamous people be the most safe, the most honest and very difficult conversations, the most willing to work on themselves, the most willing to repair rupture.

Sam: 00:48:58

Yeah.

Ann: 00:49:00

So if, even if you're choosing to not be non monogamous, I say still learn all about the skill sets that people use because it's really, really powerful in relationships and creating happy, healthy relationships.

Sam: 00:49:19

Yeah.

Ann: 00:49:20

Like you can apply that to your sister. You know what I mean? Like, like it's just phenomenal way to communicate and learn how to share and experience life. You know, I love, I love it. Yeah.

Sam: 00:49:32

I mean the, the core components of any relationship, whether it's with a, you know, a sibling, a colleague, a romantic partner around, you know, healthy, open, transparent communication, respect values, boundaries, all of those things, irrespective of the type of relationship are needed.

It's just that typically I see that those who are non monogamous just do it far better because I mean they have to like, we have to be able to do it better because there are more in the game, so to speak, sometimes. And so you have to be able to have that open communication and, and I think sometimes to combat those misconception and it is coming back to values.

Like if somebody says to me that they value sexual freedom, that might be colloquially they want to slot around. Great, what does that look like? How do we do that? In a way that it honors both of you and it's safe and, and consensual equally.

Someone might value emotional freedom and emotional connection or intellectual connection. Great, what does that look like?

But yeah, I think there is this, this misconception or like, I mean, I think it's also a misconception based in stigma around what Non monogamous relationships look like. Yeah. And, and I think going back to one of the other things that you said around jealousy, I think that's also another one.

Ann: 00:51:04

Yeah, a great book that I read, Polysecure. Knew you were going to bring that up because truly.

Sam: 00:51:17

Yeah.

Ann: 00:51:18

An incredible book.

Whether or not you are interested in non monogamy or not, it's just so beautiful in the way that she describes healthy attachment in relationships and she does it through the lens of, of non monogamy.

But I think if there's, if you have ideas or stereotypes or you're feeling kind of an ick just listening to this conversation because it just doesn't fit into your system and your value system. Check out this, this book, it will give. Give an interesting new perspective.

Sam: 00:51:55

Absolutely.

And I think if you are a therapist out there working with relationships or with couples, I think Polysecure and Poly Wise, which is her other book, I think that's mandatory reading to be honest, because I think if you only are applying attachment theory to not to monogamous relationships, it's easy to think that you can't create secure attachment in a non monogamous relationship, but you absolutely can.

So I, as, as much as I love our other founding people in relationship spaces and relationship therapy spaces, there are some gaps in that in terms of, you know, diverse relationship structures.

And so yeah, Jessica Fern's books are a top tier in terms of understanding how that applies out in, in real relationships from someone who is also, you know, she is also not monogamous. So I think, I think it's mandatory reading for people in terms of working in this space particularly as well.

Ann: 00:53:02

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 00:53:06

How do you see shame show up? Because shame and religious trauma and religious spaces are just kind of like intertwined. They, they're one in the same.

But in this space, you know, anything that's not monogamous is pretty taboo sometimes. So how do you see shame show up and play out once people are potentially trying to embrace a new relationship structure?

Ann: 00:53:31

I see shame show up more in people assigned female at birth. Yeah, I don't really see it the other way actually. I, I never have.

Now of course it doesn't mean that it, that it doesn't exist, but in my practice I've worked with a lot of people. I, I see it there and it's. And it's typically around the sex portion. Yeah.

The idea of having sex with another person or how to, how to have sex or I mean there, it's just the sexuality is just steeped in shame. Yeah, it's. And shame being I am wrong, not this is wrong.

Sam: 00:54:24

Yeah.

Ann: 00:54:25

And I like to make that clarification because it runs deep into your being. So I do. I do see that. And there's a lot of unlearning that has to take place there.

And it takes a lot of work and continuous work because it has a way of rearing its ugly head because it's just so embedded in our DNA, you know, so it's. It's really taking steps and being. And learning how to be safe even within your own body. Being safe within.

Exploring auto eroticism and just opening yourself up to different sexual experiences that. With people that you feel safe with, because that's very important for the female brain sexually. Safety is like everything for the female brain.

So working in spaces like that can really start to help alleviate. And being able to talk about those feelings too is really important. But it's a.

It's definitely something that I don't know if you ever get over exactly. But I think it can lessen and lessen a great deal.

It doesn't impact, you know, you may think, oh, I remember this feeling, or oh, but it's not holding you and owning you like it may have in the past.

Sam: 00:55:58

Yeah, absolutely. I think even from my own perspective, you know, there are. And I use.

I use the term slut around very strategically because it is a terminology that I've had to reclaim because obviously it's.

It's automatically got a stigma attached to it that for somebody who identifies as female to have sex with multiple people automatically tarnishes who they are as a human. And that's crap just for anybody who might still be thinking that. But it is.

I mean, like you said, I would probably also agree that I think anyone who is assigned female at birth is. Is typically impacted more so in this space. And.

And I think we can probably just have like a very quick thanks to patriarchy and purity culture again, because they're kind of the reasons why that.

And even in secular society, you know, men who sleep around, you know, studs and, you know, all of that sort of thing, and women who sleep around, sluts.

So it is just this gross language and stigma around what makes you a good in, you know, human with integrity and dignity and how you use your body sexually has got absolutely nothing to do with that. So. But it is.

It can be such a pervasive part of trying to create something authentic for you in any space, but particularly in this space as well, especially I think, if one of those values is sexual freedom. It adds, adds a layer of complexity to it. Yeah.

Ann: 00:57:50

You know, and I run right back to those writings in the first century, those religious. Because that, that set the stage for all of this.

Sam: 00:58:00

Yeah.

Ann: 00:58:01

People don't even know just how intensely negative female sexuality was steeped in the formation of religion, especially the Abrahamic faiths. And I want to encourage people to actually like, look at it and you know, you have to see what, what this is, where the beliefs come from.

I mean, I think you can still have faith if you're a faithful person, but understand who said what, where and why. And how is that impacting the way that you view yourself or sexuality today? Yeah.

Is that of God or is that of a man that was writing, creating a faith system, you know, in 100 A.D. yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 00:58:48

Anytime I'm working with someone around shame, I typically will encourage them to, to use the, the idea of like, whose voice is this internally? And that typically can lead us down a very good path to tell us. Actually it's not your voice, it's the voice of whoever it is.

But we've talked a lot about, I guess, the difficult part of all the misconceptions or the challenges of being in a non monogamous relationship. But what about the fun and the joyous and the expansive nature of embracing non monogamy as well?

What have you seen in, in people who have deconstructed, deconstructed and embrace non monogamy and the beauty that has come from that?

Ann: 00:59:33

A client statement just rings in my head when you say that.

She said, anne, I have never worked so hard at understanding myself and I feel so happy and clear about who I am and I, and I hadn't had that before, you know, and, and I, and, and a, and a freedom to exist authentically, to not feel stuck or trapped in something that doesn't work or make sense for you and, and creates mental health issues and physical health issues because it's not you. Yeah, I see so much joy. I see joy with the level of conversations that people have and the things that they learn and the places they explore.

I mean, it opens up an entirely new world that is authentically for them.

Sam: 01:00:33

Yeah, I think, you know, we said at the beginning that obviously, you know, starting to even unpack this can create issues of self worth. And I would say that embracing this, if that works for you, can increase levels of selfworth as well.

Ann: 01:00:50

Yes, yes, absolutely.

The more that you understand yourself and can and speak up for yourself and cause no harm to others, what a, what a wonderful way to live yeah, absolutely.

Sam: 01:01:07

And I mean from a, A random little side note is there's a lot of really wonderful people out there. There's a lot of people, but there's also a lot of really wonderful people. And it's just really fun.

Ann: 01:01:19

So like, yes, you know, yes.

Sam: 01:01:22

If everybody is on the same page and everybody is like happy and consensual and it is, you know, there's good boundaries in place. It just is really fun. And you know, so I think there's that also.

Ann: 01:01:35

Like, I love that.

Sam: 01:01:37

Yeah. But. And also there is. You just see the diversity of, of humankind as well. And I think that's really beautiful.

And you see that other people actually can bring out different parts of you as well that the person you might have begun with didn't. And that's not something that they lacked. It's just the beauty of differing connection, connections with different people.

So I want to sort of shift gears to the people around in terms of like family and friends of those who are in non monogamous relationships, what is the most supportive thing that they can do for, for those people, particularly if they are in a transition period or if they're struggling to understand to this, you know, concept, so to like in air quotes of non monogamy, do.

Ann: 01:02:35

You love the person? Do you love that person who's exploring non monogamy? If you love that person, all you have to do is continue to love them. I mean, truly, like it.

I feel like it's, it's not that hard. It can be something like, I don't, I don't understand, but I love you and I want you to be happy. I mean, or I'm trying.

I want to learn more about, about this. I want to learn more about your life because I love you and I want you to be happy.

I mean truly, like at the end of the day, it all, all to me, it always comes back to loving and supporting people as they do no harm and they're just trying to live their best life. Yeah.

Sam: 01:03:27

And I mean there are so many wonderful resources. There's social media accounts, there's podcasts, there is books, there is memoirs.

There is like, there's so many different resources out there where you can learn without having to ask your loved one to educate you. That's all I find that's also really important.

And, and also, like, as I love using sarcasm as like a way to navigate life, but if you weren't asking them about their sex life before, like, why start now? Like what, like what makes now that you know that they might be having sex with multiple people.

They might be having an emotional connection with more than one person. If you weren't already asking those questions. Why, why now?

Like what is, what is sitting uncomfortably for you and that's your stuff to work on, not is.

Ann: 01:04:23

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Sam: 01:04:26

But yeah, I think there's so much, there's so much information at our disposal to be able to educate ourselves and not expect other people to always be educating us.

Ann: 01:04:37

Yes, yes, totally, I agree with you and I, and I think that it important to invite their family or whatever that might look like into your space too. You know, just be, be the being aware.

I mean, I guess I do always just come back to love and not in the space of non judgment and letting people live and they'll, they'll, they'll kind of let you know what they need. And if like you said, if there's something that you don't understand, there are multiple resources and what are. Yeah.

Why are you, why would you ask someone about their sex life anyway?

Sam: 01:05:16

Yeah, absolutely.

Ann: 01:05:18

Yeah.

Sam: 01:05:19

What is your top practical tip for practitioners who want to know how to be able to support clients other than going and reading the books that we've already mentioned?

Ann: 01:05:29

Language. Language is very important. What do your intake forms look like? What does your language in the consent forms look like when you do the assessments?

I just, you know, when you are, how do you show someone that you're.

Even if you're not necessarily knowledgeable but you're open to people that are non monogamous, that they know they can at least tell you that without fear?

Sam: 01:06:04

Yeah.

Ann: 01:06:04

Do you have books on your shelf that say that and never, never say I couldn't do that or how do you do that? Don't do that. That is a disaster. I've had more clients me that and it destroyed the therapeutic alliance.

Sam: 01:06:24

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I even, even just from when we decided to deconstruct monogamy, I was already working with relationship therapy at the time.

But at the time I referred to it as couples counseling. And I was like, oh, that's not going to work anymore.

And that was my own sort of, that's what it was referred to when in my training and, and things like that. But it can be very little subtle changes like that that can allow for space for, you know, diverse relationship structures.

I mean, I'm also very explicit about working with that demographic as well.

It's one of the reasons why I'm very open about our relationship structure because it allows a level of safety for people if they choose to Engage with me as a practitioner. But yeah, I love the point around language.

It can be such a subtle differ difference, a subtle change, but it can make a big difference to being open and, and showing that you have an openness around what might not be the default relationship structure. Yeah, I love that.

I usually like to finish these episodes with some encouragement and I usually have to rewire my normal last question for bonus episodes.

So I'm going to ask you what you would say to someone who is fresh in challenging these beliefs around monogamy but is interested in exploring a diverse relationship structure. What would you say to that person who is just really early on in.

Ann: 01:08:01

That I know you're uncomfortable and that is okay because your brain has been wired a certain way. It has nothing to do with truth. It has nothing to do with right or wrong.

It's just what you were learned and how you were wired and rewiring and learning new things literally feels uncomfortable. Yeah, just keep learning.

Sam: 01:08:26

Yeah, I love that. And I, I would add to that, which is that whilst ever you sit in the discomfort, you won't stay there. You will move through it.

Ann: 01:08:36

Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yes, you will.

Sam: 01:08:40

I love that. Thank you so much for joining me and thank you for the work in this space.

I love having conversations that, I mean, I love having conversations with people all over the world. All over the world, but particularly ones that might challenge some ingrained beliefs in people when they listen to the episode.

So I'm looking forward to the, the amount of questions that I get from this episode.

Ann: 01:09:07

But feel free to send any my way.

Sam: 01:09:10

Yes, I was like, I, I do want to stress for, for people listening that if anybody does have questions to reach out to one of us and, and ask the question. There is nothing wrong with asking a question and it's just a learning opportunity to ask the question. So we love that. Yeah. Amazing.

Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Ann: 01:09:34

Thank you so much, Sam.

Sam: 01:09:38

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

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Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.