Episode 75
The One Who Challenged Purity Culture & Reclaimed Asexuality
This episode shares the powerful story of Grace, whose journey through religious trauma and identity is deeply intertwined with her experience of asexuality. Raised in a strict Calvinistic Baptist church, Grace was taught doctrines like total depravity and original sin, which left her believing she was fundamentally broken. These messages shaped her early understanding of self-worth, shame, and sexuality.
Her story is a reminder of how difficult it can be to explore identity when your framework for understanding yourself is steeped in fear and control. Through it all, her connection to nature and a more agnostic spirituality has offered peace.
Who Is Grace?
Grace was born in England, moving to Aotearoa at age 13. She was homeschooled throughout her upbringing in a conservative Christian family, though she no longer identifies with the faith. These days, she resonates more with agnostic or atheist perspectives.
Grace is neurodivergent and lives with anxiety and depression, and she’s currently awaiting an ADHD diagnosis. She is a survivor of child sexual assault and purity culture, and speaks openly about the long-term impacts of both. Grace identifies as asexual and demisexual and is married to an incredible man. She’s aesthetically attracted to both men and women (though she’ll tell you women take the lead there).
She’s currently studying psychology and working toward a career that reflects her lived experience and deep empathy for others.
Connect With Us
- You can connect with Grace via Instagram
- You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
- To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
- Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
- Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective
Transcript
I would like to begin by acknowledging.
Sam:The traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.
I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.
Sam:Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.
I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs to that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.
Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface.
Sam:Welcome, Grace. Thanks for joining me.
Grace:Hello. Nice to see you.
Sam:It is so lovely to have you on. Where in the world are you?
Grace:For people who don't know you, I'm in Aotearoa, New Zealand.
Sam:Beautiful.
Grace:In the South Island.
Sam:Beautiful. I've not been to New Zealand. It's on my bucket list. I always wanted to go over there.
I'm hoping to be over there next year for the decol conference, actually.
Grace:So where is that gonna be?
Sam:I think it's in Christchurch. Yeah.
Grace:Oh, I should go because I'm sort of near Christchurch.
Sam:Oh, beautiful.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:So it's. It's on the list for sure. It's a beautiful country, so.
Grace:It is, actually.
Sam:Yeah.
And I know that people will soon find out that it is not your home country, but let's kick off with the super vague question that I always like to start with, which is, where does your story start?
Grace:My story starts in the uk. So I was born in England in Cambridge, but I lived in Hertfordshire, which is kind of a district.
It's about an hour away from London, a little bit further than it. Hour. And I grew up in church my whole life, since I was a baby. I was probably. My mom was probably singing on the worship team when I was in her. Yeah.
ved us over to New Zealand in: Sam:Okay. And so what flavor of religion did we grow up in?
Grace:I grew up in Calvinistic Baptist church. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So I was mostly within like Calvinism or all of my childhood until I left my parents church when I was I think 15 or 16.
Yeah, I think I was 15. And then I went into like a Pentecostal Assemblies of God church.
Sam:Yep.
Grace:It's the typical trajectory.
Sam:Hey.
Grace:For most people. Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm not original at all.
I think my parents, though, I will say, have always been like Pentecostal in the sense that they speak in tongues.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And they believe in like casting out demons and laying hands on the sick, that kind of thing. I would say that they're not very refor.
Sam:Yeah, yeah. I mean like that's not a super Calvinistic or Baptist sort of perspective.
Actually I'm gonna ask this question because the word even just like the Baptist flavor is so broad and so different. I talked to the people in the US around who are Southern Baptists and it's just like ultra, ultra conservative.
In Australia, Baptist can mean ultra conservative or super progressive depending on land. And so what, what was the Baptist church or the Baptist belief system in the UK Again?
Grace:I was a child.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So quite hard for me to specify in terms of like the full belief system. But we definitely believed in Tulip, which is a Calvinistic thing. Don't ask me to remember exactly what it means.
Yeah, I could look it up, but it's, it's sort of like very grounded in like your depravity as a human being and sort of essentially I'm paraphrasing here, but you're nothing without God and you need total redemption and like grace.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And. And that's literally where my name comes from. Like my parents called me Grace because of God's grace.
Sam:Oh, wow.
Grace:Yeah. So I have an interesting relationship.
Sam:I was about to say, how do we feel about your name now?
Grace:When I was a child, I really wanted to change my name and I still dabble with it every so often because I don't identify with it. But at the same time, it's the name that my partner knows me as. It's the name my best friends know me as. And so I guess I sort of want to reclaim it.
But it is still a kind of interesting thing for me.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I think even as I talk, as I've interviewed people over like the last 18 months or so. Grace is one of the words and the terminology that has been hardest for people to reclaim or shift or make different or something.
Like I still use it and I go, oh, like, I can't. I haven't found a better word yet than grace. It's hard.
Grace:It's kind of one of those words that doesn't have many, like, synonyms. Yeah, I guess is the right word. Yeah.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely.
So what was it like as a child growing up in that space where, you know, we hate the idea that children are told anything other than they are like beautiful and good and, and wholesome and whole and worthy, and yet you are being told the opposite. And so what do you remember about what that was like?
Grace:I definitely have a lot of memories of being told that I'm broken. Yeah, a lot. And being unredeemable. And my family was very focused on we're nothing without God.
And that, I guess, has been hard for my self esteem throughout my life because it was so ingrained in me. And yeah, I think, I think that was one of the most deep things that has sat with me. Can you repeat the question? Sorry.
Sam:Yeah, no, I was just sort of thinking like about what you remember the impact of, of being told that you were broken and that, you know, that I guess that concept and doctrine of original sin where we are nothing without grace.
Grace:Yeah, yeah.
Sam:In my head I'm like, I'm going to spend the next 45 minutes doing that. I feel like that's fine.
Grace:I've been the butt of so many grace jokes and being told, oh, you have to say grace at the dinner table because your name is Grace.
Sam:Oh, yeah.
Sam:It's frustrating though, I imagine. Yeah.
Grace:Yeah. I got used to it. I, I was a pretty outgoing kid, so it wasn't too bad.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:Yeah. No, I think it, it has been something that is still hard to think about.
And it's one of the things that makes me the angriest about the, the faith is the teaching of being inherently broken.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I just think in terms of identity formation, it's very damaging and hard to deconstruct.
Sam:Absolutely. I'm assuming if it was heavy on original sin and total depravity, was it also heavy on like, hell?
Grace:No. I was in a bit of an interesting place.
My, my church and my family didn't really focus so much on hell as like the Dante's Inferno, the, the, the flames and the eternal suffering. I was always taught hell was total deprivation from God.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:And so if you are in hell, it means that you're always away from him and those you love.
Sam:Right.
Grace:So no, I actually, I have a bit of a unique experience with the hell thing because I thankfully never really grew up fearing it as this entity of its own.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Personally. But I, I know that others haven't been so lucky.
Sam:Yeah.
I mean, I'm even sort of thinking just the idea of, even without all of the hellfire and brimstone imagery, even just the idea for, particularly for a child of eternal separation from God and everybody that you love is still just a fear based concept and something that as a child you just can't comprehend as well. Like.
Grace:No.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I also, and this is a slightly unrelated thing, but I didn't know anyone who died until I was quite a lot older. And so the, like, my grandparents have only just died. Yeah. Like last year. So I'm kind of. I was in this place of sort of. It wasn't real.
Like I was young, I was a child. And the idea of people being completely separated from me, like those I love wasn't real yet.
Sam:Right.
Grace:And I have to say, like, when I first. The first person I knew who died was a young person. And so I, like one of my friends.
And so I think that that was a real catalyst in me breaking apart my faith, admittedly.
Sam:But.
Grace:Yeah, so. So yeah, going back to what you were saying didn't really hit me until later.
Sam:Yeah.
I'm thinking like, is that, did that almost make it easier to deal with that concept of eternal separation because you weren't faced with the reality of death until a bit like a bit later in age.
Grace:Yeah. I would say that because I was brought up with it like from such a young age. I just didn't know any better.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I'll be honest with you. And I was homeschooled my entire life.
Sam:Ah.
Grace:So I, despite my desires to go to school, I was homeschooled. And so I literally just had what my parents were telling me and what other families were telling me.
And I grew up with all other Christian homeschoolers.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And like I was at church multiple times a week for all of my life because my parents were on the worship team and my dad ran one of the like Sunday schools and I was at prayer meetings. So I was at church like three or four times a week from as long as I remember. Yeah.
So I didn't really have a chance to form any individual thought for a long time.
Sam:Yeah.
From like a church perspective, but also from like a socializing school perspective, which is usually where people are Able to make differing connections. But you, if you are homeschooled, you don't get that opportunity. How do you look back on being homeschooled?
Obviously it's all, you know, but is it like something that you, you know, can see the benefit in? Do you absolutely fucking hate it? Like, how do you feel about it?
Grace:Both.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:Depends on the day. I think I am really thankful to my parents for homeschooling me. In some aspects, I have dyscalcia, which is dyslexia with numbers.
Sam:Oh, right.
Grace:And so in some aspects I would have been better at school and they could have diagnosed me. But in some aspects as well, I was able to be slow.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:At that. Despite my. My poor mum having to try desperately to teach me. But yeah, I think I'm.
I'm thankful mostly for my, like, building who I am was a lot easier without too much external influence.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I was allowed to be a kid. I was allowed to explore what I'm interested in and have. Be a little weird, to be honest with you. I've always been a big nerd and so I think I.
I guess I was definitely bullied when I was in places where there were other kids, but it wasn't as bad as it probably would have been in school. And so I think I'm thankful in some ways for it. But in other ways, I wish I'd gone to school.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah. Mostly because my mum's not a teacher and that is not her fault and I hold no grudge against her at all. She really did a great job.
I could read very young, so that was. That was, I think, good. But. Yeah, I think there's just certain subjects that in later life I've needed and I've had to go back to the beginning.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So I think complicated.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I think also having that complicated or like nuanced perspective on things is what we need, particularly if we are post church or we no longer identify with the faith that we were raised with.
It's that nuance allows us to hold the things that actually we might have loved or benefited from that we've taken with us and still hold the shit show from the other stuff as well. Like it very rarely is anything or good or bad. So.
Grace:No, no, because I was. I think the biggest thing is that I was brought up in young Earth creationism.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:And so. And to this day, my parents do believe that.
However, my path has been science as an adult and the subjects I'm the most interested in have been science. I'm currently studying health Science. And so I think that has been really hard to have to learn so much that I was told was wrong.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And now I am learning. It's true.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So, yeah, I think that's the biggest. That's the biggest complaint I honestly have about homeschooling was that it's just made my adult life harder.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But in other ways. No.
Sam:Yeah.
What about the socialization aspect and that Christian bubble that you would have been in and not necessarily being able to interact with more diverse types of people? What do you remember about that?
Grace:So when I was younger, like in England, I was the only girl in the homeschool group, so that had its own interesting developments. I did have some female friends from like, Sorry, I shouldn't say female girlfriends from church.
So I had a couple girlfriends, but yeah, mostly all boys that I grew up with and I only have a brother.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But yeah, definitely when I became a teenager and we were moving here, I had the best group of friends who I'm still friends with 90% of them. And we were all Christians. Like, we were all going to the same church or adjacent churches and we lived in a really small town.
And so I think in a way I'm kind of glad that I was at church because I had this network and even though I was homeschooled, I still get got to see these people, you know, at youth group and at church and youth camp and multiple times a week, let's be real, hanging out after school. So, yeah, I think I often get questions actually when I tell people that I'm homeschooled, like, oh, well, how were you socialized?
Yeah, and I think I could have been socialized better. But I think, like, I'm glad I had the friends I had. I kind of got a.
What's it a magic in the bottle moment, you know, of just having all the right factors. But yeah, so social life was good, I think.
Sam:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Grace:But it did mean that, like, my teenage years were not drug and sex filled or, you know, those sort of things. I. We was very conservative.
Sam:Yeah, yeah.
Sam:What took your family to New Zealand?
Grace: n was happening. They was the:They kind of thought, my kids won't be able to afford property here. Jokes on them still can't afford property. But I respect, I respect that, that they tried to help us.
So yeah, they moved because they wanted us to have a better future. And, and this is me talking for them. They're a little racist, I guess, and didn't like the fact that England is quite multicultural.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Despite having. Our church was actually like a split, like, nationality church. So we had half Chinese people and half English. European. Yeah. Yeah. So I think.
I don't know, it's a bit complicated, that whole thing.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But, yeah, I think a little bit of racism, but mostly just wanting to have. Give us a better life.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Right. Okay.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:I'm just sort of thinking like half of like the good portion of New Zealand that are like Maori people is like, you know, it's not really playing into their, like, all white card.
Grace:No.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:But I don't know.
Grace:I don't think. Oh, and I think New Zealand also.
We did look at Australia, but my mum said there's snakes and spiders and all manner of nasty things there and it's too hot. Yeah.
Sam:She's not wrong, to be honest.
Grace:And I. I hate hot weather, so I'm so Gl. My mom stood up for that and was like, no way. But I think.
I think the final thing was like, where we actually moved to was that our. The pastor we had, who was the Chinese pastor, we had two pastors.
He prayed for our family and he said that he, like, prayed for where we would go in New Zealand and he just sort of pointed to a place and that is where we moved to.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:That was how the decision was made.
Sam:It's like, how do you feel about how that decision was made? Looking back on it, I'm not surprised.
Grace:I think. I think they were just trying to like. I see what they were thinking. They were thinking we're consulting with a man of God who's intercess.
Interceding for us.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And this is where God wants us to be. I think they did it out of what they thought was right.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But yeah, it is. It is funny. Like, people always ask us, oh, did you go to New Zealand before you moved there?
And they're like, no, we just blind bought it and went there.
Sam:I mean, you're like trusting God in that process. Of course.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:So. And did you say that once you're in New Zealand, was that when you went into a Pentecostal space? Not a bit later.
Grace:It's a little later.
Sam:Right.
Grace:So we. We first went into a reformed Baptist church. Right.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:Lovely people. The most boring services we've ever been to. It was just like. And even my.
My dad was like, this is so boring because, like, they only had a piano player and, like, would sing hymns and my dad was like, let's just get some electric guitar going or let's get something going. But like, yeah, they were lovely people. Just. I do not like their beliefs now, but they were, they were nice people.
But then, yeah, then we moved to a different city and a smaller city and they went. They now go to a Presbyterian church.
Sam:And that is less boring.
Grace:I was like, it's, it's, it's still, it's still similar. Like, they have an organ, but yeah, like, they do play. Like they have multiple pianists and they have guitarists and that sort of thing.
And sometimes a pan which slays, to be honest with you. Right, yeah, like, you know the, like Peter Pan, where you like, it's like shaped in a triangle and you. I'm not gonna pretend to make the noise.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
Sam:You went to a Pentecostal church, Grace, my goodness.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:I mean, like, for everything that they do wrong, they do music, right? Usually. So it's what draws people in is. It's exciting.
But the reason I asked is more to sort of go, like, what was coming at you during that sort of like 13 to 18 years where, like, it's our biggest identity forming period. It's when hormones run wild. It's where like sex comes into it and relationships and all of that sort of thing.
And for most people that I talk to, the really, really harmful purity culture ideology usually hits in that window of time. So what was that like for you?
Grace:Yeah, so I would say that purity culture hit for me younger than that. Yeah, I did. It's interesting you say 13 to 18. 13 was when my dad sat me down and said, I want to get you a purity ring.
And I was like, I knew what purity was because it had come up. But he gave me this whole talk about, I want you to stay pure for your, like, future husband.
And I'd heard all of this before, but now it was kind of like, you're actually at the age where I need to. He was thinking, I need to actually get this instead in stone that you're not gonna do this.
And so he was like, I want you to go online and find a purity ring. And so I just like, I'm so excited I get this pretty ring. But like, to be honest, I guess at that age I hadn't had proper sex education.
And it was just going along with what I. I knew and what they taught me. And it was kind of like, yeah, okay, this is happening. Yeah, So I think, yeah, I definitely.
Purity culture was sort of subtly introduced younger than that. Like, my family is complementarian. If you know what that means.
So, like, my mum hasn't worked since she had us, which I feel bad about, to be honest, because she had a really cool career. And I won't say anything because it's not my story to tell, but, yeah, I think I.
She always says that she feels fine about it, but I do wonder how much choice she had.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And in terms of having to educate us.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So, yeah.
Anyway, I grew up with my mum being at home all the time and my dad going out to work, and I was very much taught, like, a woman's place is to serve her husband, service her husband and all of that stuff. Like gender roles piled onto me from a very young age and I was never feminine enough.
As I said, I grew up with all boyfriends, mostly like guy mates, and I was very much like a tomboy. Don't really know if we use that phrase anymore.
But, yeah, I was never particularly, like, typically girly, but I guess it did hurt me deep down, I think, knowing that I wasn't fitting this thing. But when I was young, young, it was sort of like tomorrow's problem.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I was too interested in my Barbies and playing in the mud and playing with my pets. It wasn't really anything. But, yeah, I would say, yeah. The purity culture more so hit when I was a teenager, so probably from.
I think probably the age of like 15 was when it really hit for me. Like, so I. I went to two different youth groups, so my parents ran the youth group for their church.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And then I also went to the youth group of the church that I was in, which was the Pentecostal Church. Right. So, yeah, I was getting these messages from different people with slightly different theology, but kind of the message was similar.
And I actually, like, rung my. One of my friends who was in the trenches with me at the time, and I said to her, like, is there anything you remember specifically?
And yeah, we just sort of talked about the purity culture stuff we went through. And a lot of it was the typical stuff of the power women's bodies have and not causing others to stumble. Just weird things about. If you.
Luxury cars don't show off their assets, whereas cheap cars do. And so you don't want to be a cheap.
Sam:I heard that one.
Grace:No, I know she talked. She reminded me of that and I was like, girl, that was deep in there. I don't remember that. But yeah, that's a new one.
So not wanting to do that and a lot of talk about not being unequally yoked with A partner that was really driven home to me. Yeah, Lots of stuff, to be honest, about staying pure.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I think a lot of the time when I talk about purity culture with people, I think so many people forget, and this is online, but also in person, people forget that it's not just about don't have sex before marriage and the purity culture myth that once you do get married, sex will be just this most divine, perfect thing. But like you've already mentioned, there is like, there's no sex education. You don't get taught about consent.
You, like, purity culture goes alongside of diet culture and rape culture. Like, they're both. The three are almost synonymous with one another. And so like.
And also there is no conversation or it is negative conversation around sexuality as well. And so like this just all of these nuanced aspects that don't get talked about a lot in terms of purity culture.
How did some of those things impact you? Particularly, I guess around, like, you know, not necessarily having an adequate or any sex education or consent conversations.
Grace:Yeah, I definitely wasn't taught about consent at all. Yeah, I, I think I wasn't taught about.
Taught about marital rape even, because I was definitely taught that a wife needs to sleep with her husband when he requires it. But it was never talked about, like if she's asleep, he shouldn't do that or little things like that.
And I won't go into it because I don't want to, like, bring up too much for listeners, but I have had unconsensual experiences when I was a child and I didn't. I told my parents about that, like three years ago because I was so ashamed about it for a long time once I figured it out.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So because it happened when I was young, at the time I didn't know what was going on because I had had no sex. Sex ed properly.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so, yeah, it was only when I kind of got to about 16 that I was like, why, when I think of that, do I feel like throwing up and all of these experiences? Or like, I.
I wouldn't say I've had the worst experience compared to some people I've known, but I would say it definitely haunted me for a long time and I've healed a lot from that. But there was shame around it. That took a long time. Yeah. But mostly I think not being taught about consent was hard.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But I think, I think the also compulsive heterosexuality is hard. But it's interesting because my parents, it was always talk about your husband, your husband, your husband.
But I Never really showed any interest in people. And my parents, like sat me down one day and were like, are you gay? Like, are you a lesbian? Because I.
I guess, like I was really close to my girlfriends. Like, we did hug a lot and have sleepovers all the time like most teenage girls do. But yeah, like, oddly I was like, oh, no, I'm.
I'm not like kind of thing. Like at the time I was raised to think that that was wrong.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But they didn't seem bothered, let's put it that way. I don't know what they would have said if I'd have said yes. But yeah, no, they, they did ask me that, which is interesting.
Sam:Yeah, it is.
Because it's opening the door to a conversation that even if you had the ability to say yes at the time, the safety to be to actually say that word is not usually inherently there in that location.
I also wanted to say on your previous thing, we are not in the trauma Olympics and your story is valid and real and it doesn't need to, you know, sit in a hierarchy in comparison to anybody else. But I am so thankful for you that you were able to realize that and be able to do some healing for yourself as well.
Grace:Yeah, no, I appreciate that. It's probably my not processing. Processing that in the correct way. No, I think feeling like it's not valid.
Sam:Yeah, I think it's just we. It's not easy when we hear other people's stories as well. We automatically as humans go, well, yeah, and it wasn't that bad.
And Australia and New Zealand are really good at that sort of like stiff upper lip, stoic perspective as well. So. Yeah, I think it's. It's just one of those things where it's far easier. I also think the church does that really well.
I think in terms of like other people's situations and, and things like that are far wor than ours and so we get stuck in comparison culture as well.
Grace:Oh yeah, my. My mom said many times when I didn't want to eat something. What about the starving children in Africa? I'm sure we all heard that lovely phrase.
Sam:Yeah, my dad used to say something similar, except he would say like a campachium would. Would kill for that. And I would be like, as like a kid, I'd be like, I don't know what that means.
Grace:Like.
Sam:Who is like, is that a.
Grace:People group in Australia?
Sam:I think it's just that like people who, like you said, who don't have food would like, when you are being picky, so to speak. Yeah, it just is like, oh my goodness, that it's just that comparison culture.
But yeah, for sure where yours doesn't matter as much as someone else's, but it definitely does.
Grace:Yeah. Yeah. What.
Sam:How did mom and dad asking you that, did it take you back? Like, were you like, oh, like where is this coming from? Or did it seem like, like it had some validity to it?
Grace:Yeah, like, I think so.
I haven't actually brought this up yet, but you know this because of talking with me before that I am on the asexual spectrum and I didn't realize that until I was almost 20 years old. And so I think I didn't know that that was why I wasn't expressing like sexual desires towards boys or girls.
And so I think it was more that I was just a little surprised. I don't know. It was affronting.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:That they brought it up, to be honest with you. And I think because I, I couldn't even say, oh, no, no, no, no.
Like I like this boy, you know, I didn't really have anything to say and I think like looking back, I very much went along with the liking boys thing. Like I definitely had crushes on guy, like guy friends.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But realistically there was no sexual aspect to that.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:It was just liking them as a person and wanting to be around them and just like the hormones are still there, even a few. Everyone's experience as an asexual is different.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So I can't, I can only speak from my experience on that. But yeah, I definitely still had crushes, but yeah, it wasn't sexual. Sorry, did that make sense?
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And. And I want to get to potentially like exploring what.
Because I know from reading your little bio that you identify as both asexual and demisexual. And so I want to get to both of those terms because I guarantee that there are going to be people listening who don't know what mean.
And I'm going to go down the path of like this.
We're not going to necessarily like Oxford Dictionary define, but we're going to define as to what those terms mean for you because obviously like you just said, everything is, is very unique and personal.
But I want to ask first, whilst you were like during that teenage years and you're not experiencing those desires that other people potentially suggesting that are normal, that you should potentially should be, did you feel like something was wrong with you?
Grace:Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like it was interesting going through purity culture as someone that is not experiencing sexual desire for other people. Yeah, kind of.
Feeling like I'm so good at this. Like you're all actually struggling with wanting to have sex with other people. Because I'm not. Yeah.
So there was definitely a feeling of like, I'm better than other people.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But not really knowing why because again, I didn't have any of the language. I wasn't educated about that. No. Yeah, it was, it was interesting having that experience.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I mean, I joke that being attracted to all genders meant that I could just suppress one and pick up the other. And it just made me like extra good at purity culture. But you're like in a different level. Like that's like top tier, like purity culture.
Peakness of being able to just like skate through. But the flip side of that is that you are surrounded by people saying that you almost should be struggling with these things at this time.
And yet I'm not. And so like, what is that? Like, is there something wrong or am I just really good at this? Or, you know, it's.
I would imagine that would have been really confusing.
Grace:Yeah, it was. I think that I did have moments where I was like, well, maybe I'm just not interested in boys. Yeah.
Like, maybe I am interested in women or non binary people. Although I didn't know what that was at the time. Yeah. I just, I think I was maybe thinking maybe I was interested in like other women.
But I, I think mostly it was more. It wasn't so much there's something wrong with me. It was the ticking time bomb of I will marry a man and I will have to have sex with them.
Sam:Yes.
Grace:And that scared me so much. I'm not a sex repulsed, asexual person. But I, at the. I would say when I was younger, I was. Yeah, I would say.
And I guess it was quite scary knowing that eventually I would have to live that life and I'd have to be someone's wife.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And having never experienced it at the time, like sexual attraction at the time, it was really scary. As opposed to fully feeling like something was wrong with me. I. I guess I felt like something was wrong with me. Not wanting that or not at the time.
Not wanting that.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But it definitely came a bit later in terms of actually understanding my sexuality. Helped me kind of tackle those things a little bit better. But at the time I just, I also had no one to talk about it with.
So I honestly just went along with it. Like I would talk about celebrity crushes with my girlfriends and stuff. I just kind of didn't acknowledge it for a long time.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:To be Quite honest with you. But there were. It was more so feeling like it's going to happen to me sometime.
Sam:Yeah, yeah.
Sam:And were you getting mess?
Like you already sort of alluded to the fact that you were in an environment where, you know, queerness was not a good thing in any way and was that just sort of like baked into the culture or was that being like preached, like, like very prominent messages against anything not heterosexuality?
Grace:It wasn't as bad as I know it is in some places. Okay. It was kind of not talked about.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Too much knowledge. Yeah. Assumed like everyone is heterosexual and we don't have to talk about this.
But I mean there was the odd talk at youth group a little bit about it's okay if you have those feelings towards your same sex. You're still loved and you're still. It was the whole like love the sinner, hate the sin thing that was kind of their approach. It wasn't.
I mean, I obviously think that's hateful, but it wasn't in the outright hateful, they're going to hell sort of thing. Yeah, that was kind of the way it was talked about. Like my parents have gay friends.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But that was never, it was never affirming, let's put it that way. It was kind of like they are that way.
And like I grew up like my two of my mum's favorite artists are Elton John and Queen and obviously like Freddie Mercury icon. Yeah, yeah. So I think I was. And I was around quite a bit of like queer culture in some ways.
Like there was definitely old TV shows that had very kind of like stereotypical gay men in them. And my mum thought it was hilarious and I don't think it was really ever laughing at their sexuality.
She just enjoyed their like stereotypical behavior.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So, yeah, no, it wasn't talked about too much, but it wasn't affirmed, let's put it that way.
Sam:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam:It almost sounds like it's in the sphere of like, not repulsion.
Like some people obviously have that perspective, but almost like tolerating seeing it as a lifestyle using all of those microaggression type spaces where people say things but they don't necessarily realize that the undertone of that is actually really harmful and really awful. No, but on the surface it looks, it looks quote unquote. Okay.
It doesn't look like complete overt hatred, which sometimes that subtlety is harder to spot and can also be really, really damaging, but people just don't realize it at the time.
Grace:Yeah. Like, I think the word, the only Time that I remember really coming up was when in New Zealand we had the vote to make gay marriage legal.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace: I think it was:And I think my parents sort of said, well, are you going to vote for it? And I was like, well, I don't really see why they shouldn't. Again at this time.
I was not taught, they're going to hell, but I wasn't really taught that it was right.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I was definitely taught marriages between a man and a woman.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But we don't hate them.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so I think, yeah, I made the decision to vote for it.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Which I'm like, yay, little me. But at the same time, they kind of disapproved of that. But they were also like, it's your choice.
Sam:Right. Okay.
Grace:Which is.
Sam:Yeah, I mean, that's some pretty good, like, autonomy that, you know, most would not necessarily get in that side sort of environment as well to sort of allow you to, to have that choice in that space.
Grace:They weren't particularly happy with me, but it was what it is. Yeah. But that was honestly the most that the discussion really ever came up, at least in my family, to be honest.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:So fast forward to like being 20. How did, how did the conversation or the realization and even just the knowledge that asexuality exists. How, how was that experience for you?
Grace:Long. It was a long and slow experience. So I only realized that other people felt the same way as I did because my best friend and I both experienced it.
So it was kind of. We would talk about, oh, you know, like, I just don't know how people can have one night stands.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:You know, for example. And again, I have, I have no problem with other people doing that. I still don't.
I still couldn't do that personally, but I don't shame people for doing that at all.
But yeah, we definitely had conversations about how people can sleep with people they haven't known for years or have any sort of physical contact with people that they have just met. I think that was sort of some of the starting conversations that we had and we were both like, yeah, man, I. I don't know how people do that.
It almost feels wrong. Again, this is what we were sort of saying.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I think we just talked about that every time that sort of thing came up. And then I saw the word demisexual online, I think on like Tumblr maybe or Twitter.
Sam:Oh, good. Old Tumblr.
Grace:Yeah. Yeah. I was a big Tumblr kid, but I think, yeah, I heard the phrase demisexual and I was like, oh, wait, there's a name for what I'm feeling.
That's really cool. And so I then told her about it and we were like, oh, wow. And then we would look into it more.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And it was like, there's other people that feel this way. And then just exploring how that actually looks in our lives. And as we've grown up. Yeah. Getting to know it more.
And definitely I've become more comfortable with that knowledge since, like, not being in church.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah.
So, yeah, it took a long time and it was just little conversations here and there and little Google searches and seeing things online and hearing other people's experiences.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But, yeah, it did take a while.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:So for people who perhaps have not heard the term demi sexual. And I think most people might be more familiar with asexual than demisexual.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:What do both of those terms mean for you?
Grace:Yeah, asexuality is just not experiencing sexual attraction to other people. Doesn't matter about, like, gender or genitals or anything. It's just not feeling that. And then demisexuality is slightly different.
It means that you don't experience sexual attraction to someone unless there has been a strong emotional bond formed, which a lot of people would say, oh, so you're normal or, oh, you have standards, or these are the things demisexuals hear a lot. But it's. It's. It's different, man. Like it. And the thing is, it's not that every person I formed an emotional bond with, I've wanted to fuck.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Like, it genuinely is. Like, I can't know when that would happen. And so far it's happened to me one time.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:The person I'm married to. So. Which is good. But I think lucky. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be a bit of a problem or it wouldn't have to be a problem, but yeah. Yeah.
So that's kind of what demisexuality means, is that you. And again, it's not assumedly heterosexual.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:When it happens.
Sam:And I know you are saying that for a particular reason. Correct.
Grace:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Sam:In terms of your own sexuality, like, what was that like to explore and to realize and potentially.
And I know that some people might not necessarily understand that you can have different types of attraction to different genders and things like that. And so what has that been like for you?
Grace:Yeah, I think, like, I think the more you kind of hear Other asexual people talking about the types of attraction they experience. There is quite a few types, and I can't remember them off the top of my head.
But one of the main ones is so sexual attraction and aesthetic attraction not being the same.
So aesthetic attraction is just like, enjoying the way someone looks, the way you would enjoy a beautiful sunset or the way you would look at a beautiful painting.
And it's interesting because even though I didn't know about this language, when I was a bit younger, I would often describe my attraction to, like, celebrities this way. I'd be like, yeah, well, I don't actually want to kiss them or, like, have sex with them. I just really like looking at them.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:They're just very beautiful. And so I would.
I would describe myself as experiencing aesthetic attraction more so to women than to men, but I've only experienced sexual attraction to one CIS man.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Okay.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Like, I guess the biggest thing and.
And I guess I'm asking this and I want to get back to, like, the interconnection between what we've just been talking about in church, but I want to ask.
Ask one question, because every asexual person I've ever met always deals with the frustration of people going, yeah, but, like, so are you just not having sex? Right. And so, like, what is it like for you to deal with? I guess the myths and the misconceptions about both asexuality and demisexuality.
Grace:I think I'm quite lucky in the fact that I'm not really out.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Other than to all of my close friends.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And even some of them.
Sam:And everyone about to listen to this podcast.
Grace:Which is fine, I think, like, because I'm married.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I think I avoid these conversations because I'm not out. I think if people knew I knew I'm married, they might have questions. And honestly, that's just not their business.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But mostly I've gotten away with it pretty well.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:To be honest. Can you repeat what you were asking? Sorry.
Sam:Yeah, it was just about how you navigate the myths and the misconceptions that people particularly have more so around asexuality and like. And also around, like. Well, are you married to another asexual? Like, how do you navigate that in relationship if.
If you are married to someone who is not an asexual and all of those sorts of things that people usually have sometimes very considerate questions and other times not so considerate questions.
Grace:No. No. I mean, I do have sex.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But, yeah. And I. It's because I Do actually experience sexual attraction to my partner.
It might have been different if I'd have fallen for someone and then not had that.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But I really can't speak on that because I haven't experienced it. Yeah. My partner isn't asexual and I know that they wouldn't mind me saying that, but. Yeah.
So honestly, I think we have a pretty standard relationship and he's really great at embracing me, embracing my sexuality, which is nice, I think. Like, I was scared about talking with him about it.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But he's been very good.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:At understanding it. And we sometimes make jokes because sometimes the way that particularly demisexuals think is quite unique and he sometimes will make jokes about it.
But it's.
Sam:It, I.
Grace:It's. I understand it. Yeah. It's an. It's in good faith.
Sam:Yeah, yeah.
Grace:So don't not miss or anything like that. It's more that I see things like that online and it gets me angry the way other people who are asexual have to deal with that.
More people who are more out than I am.
Sam:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And potentially like navigating, you know, the dating, relationship scene of, you know, all of that spectrum.
And also just the way that, you know, the queer community at large is. Is represented online as well.
But I think there are still particularly certain parts of the queer community that don't get the recognition and the conversation and asexuality is in that group in terms of there is just not enough good information and good representation out there for people to understand as well and for there to be constructive and helpful conversation around the A in the community.
Grace:Yeah. There's definitely, I think the asexuals and the bisexuals.
Sam:Oh, yeah.
Grace:That we love each other because we're quite misunderstood. I feel like I have a lot of bisexual friends. Yeah. Which is quite nice. But, yeah, I think there is community for us. But I know what you mean.
Asexuals can be quite. People often will go, well, you just want to be part of our group or you, you don't have sexuality, so why are you part of the queer community?
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Which is just a bit of a misunderstanding of it.
Sam:Yeah, yeah. It's just a lot of people who are being misunderstood. And I think. Yeah, you're right.
I think, you know, the amount of times that I heard growing up or, you know, you're just like, just confused or you're just like waiting to come out as a lesbian or something like that, and I'm just like, oh, my goodness, this is exhausting. And so it's just a lot of misunderstandings and being, you know, conf.
Like other people just not having the ability to sort of, like, expand their perception and things like that. So, okay, what was all of exploring all of this? Like, were you still in the church? Were you out of the church?
And if you were out, how did we get out?
Grace:I was in.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:So I was living with my family until I turned 19. So it was sort of within the year that I move. Like, before I moved, I realized. But then definitely after I moved, I explored it further.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So, yeah, I lived with my family and again, was going to church that whole time that I was living with them. And then I continued to go to church for like, another six years after that. So I did realize while I was still going to church.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I just didn't talk about it. And I think, like, I got into a relationship with my partner quite fast after I moved.
So, like, we've been together for 10 years, and we got together the year that I moved, so there wasn't a lot of time for me to have really explored it, to be honest with you. Like, I realized, like, the year before I was with him.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:How did, I guess all of the, like, the purity culture messaging and all of the.
The conversation and, like, internal narrative around your sexuality, how did all of that impact how you viewed the God that you had been taught up until that point? Like, how did it impact that relationship? Not necessarily human to human relationships, so.
Grace:Or in terms of asexuality.
Sam:Yeah.
And just, I guess all of the external messaging around your identity, I think, you know, up until this point, I imagine the messaging would have been that your identity is in Christ and your identity in God and all of that sort of language. And so potentially finding out that there are other aspects to your identity that might feel conflicting to what you had been taught.
How did that impact, I guess, the. The faith relationship that you had up until that point?
Grace:It's a complex question. I think I just didn't really give it the time of day.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:To be honest with you.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I think again, it was still that feeling of when I was younger of just knowing my purpose as a woman is to be married to a man and to be a wife.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I was still very much in that mindset for a very long time. And so I think it kind of became. It doesn't matter what I feel. Yeah. I just have this role I need to play.
And to be honest with you, like, in the early, like, stages of my relationship with my partner, My knowledge of what I was supposed to be almost ruined our relationship because he didn't hold those ideals at all. And eventually, like, I had to realize that not all men want that. And, like, not all men want a sex slave, essentially, to be honest with you.
And I think that took me years to kind of actually understand. And so I think that has that knowledge of him not expecting that of me, and him actually loving me has allowed me to embrace my sexuality.
So in terms of how I felt with God, I guess I just trusted God at the time to bring me through it.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And to bring me a partner that would be gentle. Yeah, I guess. But to be honest, I was just caught up in church life more than I. I just sort of didn't try to think about it.
I know that's not very interesting, but.
Sam:No, because I guess it sometimes falls into that.
Grace:That.
Sam:That perspective that I think a lot of people, like, don't necessarily always understand in that, like, at some point it can just become. Because I know that there is. Okay. Like, this is where my brain is going in about four different directions.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Like, there is this assumption, like, there's that sort of, like, really gross phrase that it's like, it's not religion, it's relationship.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:But at some point, if you have such a crazy, hectic church life, it becomes more of a role that you play than a relationship that you have. Particularly, I find, if you are there.
And, you know, this does become a big factor, particularly in, like, big Pentecostal churches where there's heavy, like, volunteer burnout rates and, you know, spiritual burnout in general and. And.
And things like that, where the role you play in the church matters and the image that you have in that church almost matters more than the relationship that you have with the divine.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah. I was definitely, like, a big, like, server in church. Like, I was part of the. We called it the hospitality team.
I don't know what most churches call it. So, like, welcoming people, helping them to, like, see, you know, like, talking to new people, that kind of thing.
And I would do that as well for, like, our conferences that we'd hold.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And then I also was on the worship team.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So I would serve, like. Like, three out of four weeks of a month. Pretty much, I would be on one team. And so then I had worship practice at night, once a week. Yeah. Like, I.
I definitely have experienced that kind of feeling of, you have the role in church, but I'll be so real with you. I've always thought I did that because it Was duty.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Or more for like social cred.
Sam:Yep.
Grace:Sorry, that's a really old person thing to say. Not that that's bad. I just mean like I. I just think I wanted to be looked upon as doing the right thing.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so I thought the more that I serve, the more teams I'm part of, the more gregarious and like love bomby I can be to people. I think I thought that I would be seen as a better Christian.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Because I think deep down Christian girl image.
Grace:Oh, yeah. I was a big like good Christian girl, but I kind of wasn't. I wasn't very good at it.
I would always ask questions that people didn't want to ask answer. I always had doubts and I was a bit of a pain in the bum in my like small group.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Bit of a stirrer. But. Yeah, I think I know what you mean. It's. You get sort of caught up in this role.
Sam:Yeah. I mean even asking like, even asking all of the, the questions that you shouldn't be asking, it still is. You're still paying attention. Right.
You are still almost like playing that role of you're not just like passively existing in that space. You are active. Active. You are. And so when did those questions.
Because that's very similar to I guess the image that I remember of myself, which is that I played the role very, very well. But I also still asked the wrong questions at times.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:But then at some point those questions were the questions that started to unravel and lead me out. And so what was that like for you as you were sort of of like transitioning out? Was it quick or was it a very slow fade out?
Grace:Slow. Yeah, very slow. I think I.
So like me leaving my parents church when I was 15 and going into the Pentecostal church was because of fundamental disagreement about free will.
Sam:Right.
Grace:And so my parents were like predestination, all of that stuff. And I was like, like, why would a loving God not give us choice?
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so that was, that was the biggest first question I had. And my parents weren't happy with me leaving based on that discussion. But again, and I got to give them credit, they let me go.
They were like, at least you're still going to church kind of thing. And so, yeah, that was the first big one. But then I would say it just kind of progressed over the years.
Admittedly when I was a younger teenager, I was more interested in my friends and having fun.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But I think like when I went, when I moved out of home and Went to a church of my own fruition. That was when I started having more questions. I definitely had big debates with people in my church about homosexuality because I was.
I'd come round to affirming and being like, this is wrong and cruel that we aren't affirming people. And I ended up, like, leaving the worship team eventually because I was like, I don't feel like this is my place anymore.
And I want to be like, at the time I was saying I want to be in more pastoral roles or just caring for people, communing with people, which. Yeah, I'm sure as a counselor you can kind of understand that. Poll to people. Yeah. So I definitely had those questions.
I had a lot of questions just throughout the years that people just didn't like me asking. I did have questions about, like, women speaking in church because I was brought out to up that that wasn't okay.
But then in the church that I went to as a young adult, they did do that. They had female pastors, which was really cool.
Sam:But yeah.
Grace:Just had different questions throughout the years.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:What was the. The, I guess the final straw or the thing that broke the shelf where you were like, yeah, I'm not going back.
Grace:I don't know that there was one, to be honest with you. But I think the biggest thing that sticks out to me when I think of, like, why wouldn't I go back? And I think that it's. It's quite a simple thing.
And I know that I'm not alone in this feeling of, if God can do anything, why would he allow this much suffering?
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Especially if he's a loving God.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And a father. And why would he hide himself so much from people?
Like that whole thing of, oh, well, you know, depending on where you are in the world, you're exposed to Christianity or you're not. Maybe.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And how is that fair to those people that are never exposed to it? Are they just going to hell out of default?
Sam:Yeah, yeah.
Grace:So those sort of things. The issue of suffering, I think was. Is. Is still the biggest thing for me.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But there's definitely other things. Yeah. Yeah.
Sam:The limit does not exist as per mean girls.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Girls reference. What were like leaving church, I feel like, is one of those things where everybody has a really different experience, but usually it comes at a cost.
People ask questions like, why are you not here? Are you not coming? Like, potentially some people, like, lose friendships or lose relationships with people.
And so was that a fairly smooth process or was it pretty rocky?
Grace:I guess I haven't Formally left.
Sam:Right.
Grace: haven't gone to church since: Sam:Yeah.
Grace: dition. I had a concussion in:And so I actually ended up not being able to be in church because it was too loud, too bright and too overwhelming. And so actually I ended up pulling out of some of the serving things I was doing because I was like, I'm really sorry, guys.
Like, I actually just can't deal with being here.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so I'd still go to like some of the smaller things, you know, like go and help at youth group and things like that.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace: ke went to church was like in: Sam:Yeah.
Grace: went sporadically throughout:Just every so often I was going to a different church because I thought, oh, this is a bit more low key and it was less people and things like that because I was in quite a large church before. But then eventually I wasn't making any friends and I just was disagreeing with more and more stuff and was feeling more and more uncomfortable.
So for me, I guess I never had the convo with people of like, I don't believe this stuff anymore. I'm leaving. And I only came to actually sitting and acknowledging that I don't believe it two years ago.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:And like no one knows.
Sam:Well, now my listeners know. But we're all with you. It's okay.
Grace:No, I know, it's fine. Like my, like my close friends know. Yeah. I talk like at length about my problems with them sometimes.
But yeah, I think like, yeah, my parents don't know.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:My in laws don't know and that kind of thing. And so as far as everyone knows, I still am a Christian, but I guess I am a little bit vocal about things sometimes.
Sam:Okay.
Grace:That I disagree with. But I'm honestly just scared. I'm, I'm, I'm scared of losing everyone.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Especially like parents and in laws is really hard to think about losing in like siblings.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But I did lose people definitely. Like as I left, there was people that I thought would reach out that didn't.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I thought that people would say, oh, we're really missing seeing you on Sundays. Like, and it just didn't happen.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And for a long time I was really bitter about that, to be honest, because I was like, I've been serving Here for years and years every week, and no one asked where I was, which I recognize is selfish, I guess, but I just thought I had more community than I did.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So that was quite hard.
Sam:Yeah. It's the realization, I think, that.
And it doesn't have to be all relationships, but that some of those relationships were conditional or transactional and that, you know, we. We love you whilst ever you stay in this box or. Or at least while ever you stay in this church and. And things like that.
And it's that really sad realization that the relationship didn't move beyond that. That it didn't have enough weight or attachment to it to. To move beyond those.
Those four walls, which is a really sad realization, whether it's one relationship or all relationships. So.
Grace:Yeah, like, the people that I am still friends with from then are all people that have left too.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Right.
Grace:Yeah. So I'm thankful that I'm still.
Sam:I mean, that's nice.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Deconstruction perk.
What was it like for you to let go of some of those beliefs, like the beliefs that you were raised with, and start to realize, actually, I don't believe any of this. I. And potentially to either work out what you do believe or that you're okay with not knowing even.
Grace:There's still things I don't know.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I'm very happy to admit it, but it was fucking scary.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I think for a long time when I was deconstructing, I was actively deconstructing. I was seeking out answers, and I was listening to, you know, people from different faiths.
And for a long time I was sort of thinking, oh, maybe I'll become a Quaker. Yeah. Instead of a Christian. Because they just seemed so much more open. And I still respect them actually quite a lot.
But I think for a long time, I was, like, holding on to it for dear life.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Because I was like, I don't want to have to have this convo. I don't want to have to reinvent myself and let go of this part of my identity, because it's literally all I've known and how can I.
And now I don't think this way, but I think it was kind of, where's my morality if it doesn't come from God?
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Which seems very silly now that I.
Sam:Think about it, but it's very real at the time.
Grace:Yeah, it is very real. And I had to go through the thoughts of, well, if I don't believe, am I still going to heaven?
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Is heaven real? And because my family believe in like predestination and like once you're saved, you're always saved. So technically by that I'm good to go. Yeah.
Well, I don't believe that, but I think, yeah, that was one of the scary things, was kind of thinking, okay, what do I think of the afterlife? Do I think there is one? Those were some of the harder things, I think for me. And more honestly, just being afraid of letting people down.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And being viewed as heathen, being viewed as dirty.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:You know, and I think especially like, you know, being queer, being tattooed, being plus sized, you're gonna have people have all these opinions of you already.
Sam:Yep.
Grace:And then adding on also.
Sam:Also I'm a raging heretic.
Grace:Yeah, raging heretic. Exactly. And I guess I just. It is really scary to like.
Yeah, I want to have those conversations with my parents and stuff because I love them and they actually deserve the truth.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:But it's really, really scary.
Sam:Yeah.
I mean, I, I am wondering what that is like for you because I, and I sit here and I say this quite often, which is that I am incredibly privileged that I grew up and I still have a very secular family. And that was not something that I had to navigate.
But I am curious what it is like for you and what it has been like, you know, the last 12, 18 months or so, feeling like you cannot be your real self with the closest family, like your, your immediate family almost. What is that like for you?
Grace:It's really hard because despite disagreeing with, not really disagreeing, I guess, like they're entitled to believe that stuff, but having that disconnect is quite hard. And I'm not like my parents very much. I'm quite different anyway. And so it's kind of nice to have things in common.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And it is really hard. Like I feel like I have to just lie or that I have to like walk on eggshells and try not to say something that like, out me as not believing.
And I can't do it forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I think that it's really hard. I won't lie to you.
Sam:Yeah. I mean, like, masking in general is exhausting.
Like, we talk about it in terms of queerness and neurodivergence and, and all sorts of different spaces. But like that sort of level is, is it takes energy.
And I think people who have never had to do that don't necessarily realize what it is like to suppress or shut off parts of yourself with those that you should be able to be yourself with.
Grace:Yeah. Like I, we live with My in laws at the moment because we're having house built and like they are pastors.
Sam:Yeah. Right.
Grace:And so. Yeah. I mask every day. Yeah. When they're around and that's really hard and they're very into it. Like.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:They breathe it. You know what I mean? And they love it. And it's really hard to you know, like have them say oh well when you pray about xyz.
And I'm like, it ain't happening cheap.
Sam:Yeah. I mean and also like I'm just thinking, like what is it like for you to be surrounded by that all the time? Because like I'd hate that.
Like just like very bluntly.
Grace:But yeah.
Sam:Like what is it like for you? Like you are living and breathing that even though you are not choosing it.
Grace:Yeah. It's not fun. It's not fun. Again, I, I respect their right to be in it and to believe it. And I love that they have their community that they like.
That's so everyone wants more community in their life.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And so I can't begrudge them that. I try to think of it out of compassion, but it's hard. I won't lie to you.
And I feel like some things that they believe are harming others and that is the hardest thing because I am very pragmatic.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I. I really don't like knowing that other people are being taught things that I know might harm them in the future. I can't say for certain.
But yeah, I think that that's, that's the hardest thing really. And I don't like lying to them because I love them. Yeah.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:And even just that nuance is really hard of just like knowing that people that we love are also doing things that are potentially really harmful identity based harm as well. And that nuance is just like real. That's hard to hold within our system as well.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And even, even with themselves, like my parents included, like I think I just. Sometimes they have problems that I think you don't need to have these problems.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Like you're giving yourself anxieties or shame around things. That is not a problem. And I want more freedom for them because I love them and I want them to have less stress.
Like they have all of these things they're dealing with because of the community that they care for.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And I just wish some of those things are like just general life stuff is hard, but some of those things could be eradicated if they didn't believe certain things, especially identity wise. And that is quite hard.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:No, I was Just gonna say, I love the phrase, like, I want more freedom for them. I think that that's beautiful. And, and also just shows it's not about trying.
People can have immense freedom with faith as well, but that some forms of faith are really constrictive and there are more expansive other forms of faith. And so I love that you're, you know, putting it as, I don't want to change their beliefs, but I want them to experience more freedom. And.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
Grace:Yeah.
Because again, just because I don't believe it, just because I may think some of it is harmful, just from a psychological perspective, I can't negate the good that they get from it.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:That is still, like, a net positive for them.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah. But I just wish that they had less stress and more freedom and could be loved better and also love others better.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Where do you land on spirituality now?
Grace:I, I guess I identify as agnostic slash atheist.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I don't, I feel like we can't know if there is a, or isn't any God. So I guess atheist feels a bit, like, solid. But at the same time, I, I don't know if I'd want to believe.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:If there was one.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:I guess that's kind of where I land on it. Yeah. But I think I, I do, I guess I'm sort of interested in.
I don't know if this is really spirituality, but I, I, I do really love the thought of us being part of nature.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:And nature being us.
Sam:Oh. I think if you listen to every other podcast I've ever done with people, I think everybody will agree with you that nature is inherently spiritual.
I think also, it's just, it's why I ask people what people their relationship with is like, what their relationship with spirituality is, because it's less about there being a divine being, like faith is. It's less about organized religion or there being a holy text or something like that.
And spirituality is just about connection to ourselves, to the world, to nature, to others. And so I think everybody who has ever been on this podcast will agree with you that, that nature is inherently spiritual.
And I often joke that the church is concerned about the wrong things, that they're worried about sex, drugs, and rock and roll, and they should be worried about nature.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Because it'll lead far more people out of the church than, like, drugs ever will.
Sam:So.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Yeah, for sure. No, I think, I guess I particularly like.
I don't know if I ever should go into it, but especially since kind of forming more Thoughts about the afterlife and my place in life. I guess I have more respect for nature and being a little part of the incredible universe. Yeah, I sound real hippie. Yeah. Like, I. I don't.
I think I just find that really interesting.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:As a thought to explore and very beautiful.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:As opposed to governing nature being part of it. I think I just want to explore that idea more.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:So maybe that's. That's spirituality and maybe it's because my love of science as well.
Sam:But yeah, I think that's beautiful.
Sam:And also, like, you know, embrace the hippie. I just like, I love that. So, okay. I love ending these.
And I know that you have listened to the episodes before, so I know that you probably know what questions. Question is coming.
But I love ending these episodes with some encouragement for people who are potentially navigating this in real time and potentially even quite early on in their experience. And so what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction?
Grace:I would say be authentic to yourself.
Sam:Yeah.
Grace:Don't go. Go as far as you feel like you need to go, and know that you are not alone. As I guess, cheesy as that sounds, you're definitely not alone.
And even if everyone around you rejects you, hopefully that doesn't happen. But there is still people that will love you.
And to even find one person in your life who you can at least talk to about it, even if they don't understand it, it talk about. Even if it's a therapist or a counselor or a psychologist or someone who can make space for you, I think that that's really important.
And yeah, be authentic to yourself. Yeah, I think that's what I would have to say.
Sam:Beautiful.
Sam:Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, community and having people is so important. So I love. I love that you write to that. I think it's so important.
Thank you for joining me, Grace.
Grace:No worries.
Sam:It has been beautiful. And. And also thank you for sharing so openly about things that, you know, only a very small subsect of people know.
And so I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable about so much of your story.
Grace:It's all good. Thank you for listening to me. I hope it was interesting.
Sam:It was beautiful. Everybody's story is important. That's the point of the podcast.
Grace:Yeah.
Sam:That everybody's story matters. And. And so I'm always just appreciative people who are willing to sit and just chat for a bit about this thing we call life and the.
The good stuff and the batshit crazy stuff as well.
Grace:Thanks.
Sam:For tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.
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Sam:For updates and more content.
Sam:I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward.
Take care.
