Episode 74
The One Raised In A Non-Traditional Southern Baptist Home
In this episode, Michelle shares her story of growing up in a non-traditional Southern Baptist environment and how it shaped her sense of self. While her experience didn’t always match mainstream ideas of Southern Baptism, it still carried its own form of control and complexity. Through honest conversation, we explore how religious identity can look different for everyone and how stepping away from it can open the door to deeper self-understanding. This episode is a reminder that faith journeys are rarely simple, and there’s power in questioning what we’ve been taught.
Who Is Michelle?
Michelle F. Moseley is a licensed clinical mental health counsellor providing therapy in North Carolina, USA. She specialises in working with individuals who have experienced spiritual abuse and religious trauma, having her own lived experience of both. Michelle's work also includes HAES-aligned body image services, adult ADHD/Autism assessments, and educational workshops for a variety of audiences.
Connect With Us
- Find out more about Michelle via her website - https://michellefmoseley.com/
- You can also connect on Facebook, Instagram & LinkedIn
- You can find out more about Sam on her website - www.anchoredcounsellingservices.com.au
- To connect with Sam on Instagram - @anchoredcounsellingservices
- Want to contact with Sam about the podcast or therapy? Use this contact form.
- Also check out The Religious Trauma Collective
Transcript
I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.
I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.
I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be aboriginal land.
Sam:Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.
I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs to that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.
Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface.
Sam:Welcome. Michelle, thanks for joining me.
Michelle:I am so glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.
Sam:I. I think that you are probably going to be the most star accent difference we've had so far. So for context, where in the world are you at the moment?
Michelle:Yes, probably folks will definitely pick up on the accent difference. So I am on the lands of the indigenous peoples, the Sisapaha, Lumby, Catawba and Tuscarora, which is also known as North Carolina in the state.
Sam:Okay, beautiful. And I like to start these episodes with a very vague question.
And you mentioned that you've listened to a few of the episodes, so you probably know what this question is, which is where does your story start?
Michelle:Yes, I think that depends on which part of my story we're thinking about. Yeah, if we're thinking about the religious part of my story, it really starts from the moment I was born.
Sam:Okay.
Michelle:If we're thinking about the body image kind of weight piece of my story, connecting with body, that probably starts more around age 10. And then I also part of my story is late identified neurodivergence. And so that doesn't start until I was in my 30s.
Sam:Okay. Right. Okay.
So in terms of like faith upbringing and things like that, what flavor of Christianity were you in as a child or what, what you were you raised in?
Michelle:Yes, so I was Raised in a Southern Baptist church, it was not a traditional or typical Southern Baptist church because it is very small church in a rural part of North Carolina. Probably the maximum number of people at the church in my lifetime was 35 to 40.
Sam:Oh, wow.
Michelle:So a lot of very.
Sam:Schools.
Michelle:Yes, very small.
A lot of the pieces of maybe your typical or traditional Southern Baptist churches, particularly with how women are allowed to serve, didn't apply in this church because if women weren't allowed to do things, nobody. Nothing would have gotten done. So I didn't really.
I wasn't aware of any of the kind of submission or the restrictions on women because that's not what I was seeing in my church.
Sam:Yeah, so what were you saying? If the. Because I mean, Southern Baptist is.
I mean, in Australia, Baptist is a very broad spectrum, but I know in the us Baptist and particularly Southern Baptist is usually known for being very conservative, very dogmatic, traditional, all of those sorts of things. So what were you seeing?
Michelle:Yeah, so I didn't even realize how conservative and, like, what Southern Baptists were known for. I just knew that the church was Southern Baptist.
Like, some of the money went to the Southern Baptist Convention because in my church, like, the pastor was a male, but I never really thought about that. There was no discussion of, like, only men are allowed to be pastors.
There were women who were doing all kinds of roles, from teaching Sunday school classes to.
We even had some women deacons at a few points, like, leading up any kind of, like, hospitality, like just kind of women were involved in all the things. And so I didn't really know any of the.
The larger kind of Southern Baptist history or what was happening at a convention level, really, probably until I got to college, is when I became aware of some of the things that, like, oh, my church was an anomaly. Okay.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah. That's so interesting. Was it the same dynamic in your family that you were saying like, that sort of.
Or were you seeing the complementarianism at home, but not at church?
Michelle:Not really at home either. Like, I feel like my parents. I'm an only child, and so it's just me and my parents.
And I feel like they very much had and have a relationship of, oh, this is a thing that you're good at or that, you know, you feel okay taking care of. So you do this and I'll do this. Yeah.
Some of those did kind of follow along some of the more traditional gender lines, but I, I never heard the word complementarianism until college. I never got messages about, like, Proverbs 31, woman until college when I was going to a more traditional Southern Baptist church.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Do you look back at that and go, man, that's actually so much rarer than what you would have ever realized as a child.
Michelle:Oh, yes, yes. Oh. And I also think about like, how did I get in as far as I did?
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because I was, I mean I was an adult. I was a young adult, but I was an adult when I really went into these very complementarian, conservative, submission of women kind of spaces.
And so on some level I did it by choice.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah.
I was not raised in a faith based family, so I often will use the, that I chose to get on this roller coaster like, and it's, it was a, it's a weird feeling as well. Like it sits differently I think, for, for people who really went knee deep into religion at a. A more, you know, conscious adult type age.
Michelle:Yeah.
Sam:I like to ask this question because I usually like to mirror it. Towards the end of the episode, which was in those sort of like early years and early teen years. Who was God to you?
Was this just like a family tradition that you went to church through the week or on weekends? Or was this something that was deeply personal for you?
Michelle:I would say early on it was more of like, this is what you do, you go to church on Sundays. My church was small, so we didn't have other services going on. It was on Sundays.
And then you might have something special around Christmas or Easter, but there wasn't the like multiple days of the week services and it was just something you do. I never even thought to ask any questions of like, why do we do this or can we not do this?
And then I was probably around 12 or 13 and I was, I think it was actually in a Sunday school class where the person who was teaching asked us to draw a picture of who God was to us and everyone else in there. And keep up. There's only like four other people in there. Small church. Like this is not a big group.
Everyone else in there drew a picture that was basically the picture of Jesus that was hanging in the church.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:So this like random, really Italian looking, blue eyed guy. And I was like, I drew this kind of like orb of light because what we were asked was draw God, not draw Jesus.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And so first of all, why are we drawing this picture? Because that's not what we asked for. But my thought of God was like, I can't, I can't draw that in a picture.
Like that's not in human form, at least at, to me at that Point in time. And it was kind of made fun of. Of like, oh, you just. Are you trying to get by without actually doing what I asked? You just drew a big sun.
Like, it just felt really dismissive and, like, okay. The way you view God is not okay.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Oh, gosh. And I'm.
I'm actually sitting here going, like, before you sort of said that it was dismissed, I was like, oh, they should be, like, bad choice of word, but they should be praising that. Like, that sort of, like, expansive view at such a young age already, as opposed to the literal.
Just what you were taught or just what you had been told. Representation of the other images. But.
Michelle:Oh, I look back on that now, and sometimes I feel sad for, like, that version of myself. Of, like, wow. I. I think that version of myself actually had a really special understanding of what spirituality could be.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:But because of the way it was received, it got shut down.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Of. This is not okay. Like, this is not in line with what you're supposed to think.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah.
Sam:Did that have an impact on the way that you related to faith and spirituality before you hit college, or did it just sort of sit in the back of your system? That's such a therapist word for me to pull out in this episode.
Michelle:But anyway, I would say that it probably played a role in my faith becoming more personal.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because it was around that time that I started, like, actually reading the Bible on a regular basis and, like, keeping a prayer journal and, like, writing down things that I felt like were speaking to me from the Bible or, like, questions that I had. Like, it really became a thing that I was doing on my own. It wasn't just something that happened on Sunday.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And I also, like, I was a teenager in the 90s, and the purity culture movement, true love, weights very big, and they very much appealed to me. I like rules, and so you're giving me the rules and telling me what is acceptable. And it also felt like a way of, like, this is setting me apart.
Like, this is showing my commitment. And so I.
I don't think I had the same experience with purity culture that a lot of people did, but definitely played some roles in choices that I made and in not. Not really exploring pieces of identity until I was well into adulthood.
Sam:Yeah. Right. What makes you say that you experienced purity culture differently?
Michelle:I think a lot of other people had it forced upon them from a very young age. Like, someone was coming in explicitly teaching them, Whereas. And this almost sounds sick to me now, I was seeking it out.
Like, I heard of the true love weights movement. And there was a piece of me that was like, yeah, I don't, I don't want to have sex in high school anyway. Like, I already have enough to worry about.
Like, that's not. And I also was having my own, like, body issues.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And so it kind of put a spiritual twinge on that of like, well, the reason that I'm not, you know, doing anything, I'm not interested in sex is because of my commitment to God. So I don't have to face any of the body. Body issues that are coming up.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:And I will often talk about the intersection that purity culture has with diet culture and fatphobia. I had a devotional, I think I wasn't a teenager at this point. I think I must have been about 19 maybe.
Well, there's still teen on the end of it, so but maybe 19ish. And. And the devotional was titled Fit for My King. And it was like a dietary devotional. It was disgusting.
I look back on it now and I'm like, that's actually insanely harmful.
The intersection that purity culture has with other cultures, particularly in terms of like body image and diet and fat phobia and all of that sort of thing, is just so interwoven. And so it sounds like those intersections were probably the ones that were more impactful for you than traditional sex based purity culture.
Michelle:Yes, definitely. And we, I don't know if you've ever heard of the Way down workshop. Yes, yes. So I was probably 13, 14.
My church, some women in my church got on that kind of bandwagon and there was like exercise programs at church and like your body's a temple so you need to treat it this way and you need to make sure your body is a certain size.
And so all of that got into it at the same time that I was hearing about true love weights and, and purity culture things and yeah, it all got very tied together.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And there's also this phenomenon. I think it happens in other churches, but I've heard it a lot in Southern Baptist churches where pastors will talk about their smoking hot lives.
Sam:Oh, yes, yes. It's big in the Pentecostal mega church space as well.
Michelle:Yes, yes. And it's always a very certain appearance. And it's like, it must be this appearance. And this is the only thing about this human being.
Yeah, they are my smoking hot wife. Nothing else about, you know, any of their talents, their characteristics, who they are as a person.
Sam:Yeah. If she looks good, then I look good.
Michelle:Right, right.
Sam:That's Kind of the mentality.
Michelle:Yes, yes.
Sam:Yeah, we see that particularly in. In like, mega church or Pentecostal charismatic type churches as opposed to the smaller. I don't know that I've seen that in Baptist.
I'm sure it is, but I think we would see that in more Pentecostalism in Australia than anywhere else. Okay. I asked this question to every American because we don't have this in Australia. Really? Did we go to a Christian college?
Michelle:I did not. I never went to any Christian school, so I went to public school.
My mom was a public school teacher, and so I did go to a private college, so I went to Wake Forest University, if anybody who might be familiar with that, which was started as a Baptist school. But by the time I went there, it was no longer affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.
So it was, you know, just a liberal arts school, not a Christian school, not a religious school at all. But it had had that affiliation years before I was there.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Right. Okay. And you've sort of alluded to the fact that the conservative Christian space became far more part of your story once you hit college.
So what was that experience like? Because I imagine it was quite different to what you've just described as growing up.
Michelle:Yes.
So when I first got to college, actually in my first semester, I found out that some adults that I had really respected from my church that I grew up in, there had been some infidelity in a relationship. There had been some comments by a leader that the infidelity would not have happened if the woman had taken care of herself. In other words, not.
Not gained any weight. I was affected by that. So there was a period where I just didn't go to church at all. I was like, I don't want anything to do with church. I don't.
I just. I don't understand how this is happening.
When I did decide to start looking for a church, I naturally looked for Southern Baptist churches because I was like, oh, that's what I came from.
Did not realize the experience of a larger Southern Baptist church in a city was going to be much different than my very small Southern Baptist church in rural North Carolina. And so I ended up at a church that was probably about 800 people total, had two services Sunday morning. Multiple things happening during the week.
t. This was also right around:I actually had some. Some friends whose parents were in the mission field and had been in the mission field. For like 20 years.
And because of that statement and that stance, things shifted so the women could no longer do what they had been doing for 20 years. And they ended up coming home and ending their mission work because they were like, you. You just effectively told me, I can't do anything as a woman.
I'm only here to support my husband. And so that, like I said, that was also when I first became aware of Proverbs 31.
I was part of a college small group where we split up men and women because of course, gender is a binary. That's the only way that, that things happen in those contexts.
And I'm sure the, the men probably learned something about taking charge and being leaders and whatever, whatever they do. We went through a whole study on Proverbs 31 and what it meant to embody all of that.
And then I started slowly seeing the, the woman who had led our, like, college ministry. Slowly they started bringing men in to teach and to lead.
And after the fact, I put together like, oh, the Southern Baptist Convention has made this big statement about the role of women. This woman is probably not allowed to be our teacher anymore.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because there are young adult men in this class.
And then when I went into full time ministry, because that was a first career out of college, is that I went into full time ministry and I met with the leaders of the church about supporting and joining my team.
We had to raise our own finances and basically was told we don't support women in ministry and so we won't be giving any money to help you do any of this ministry work. And that was the moment for me where I was like, wow, okay.
I knew that you weren't okay with like women pastors and women in certain positions, but, like, you're not okay with women in ministry at all. Yeah, like, who, who does ministry with women? Those were the questions I was asking men.
I have a lot of other questions now, but at that time, those were the questions that I was asking then.
Sam:Yeah, I. So I mean, my first question is based on the fact that like, you were raised not in a complementarian perspective and space.
So what was it like for you personally? And what impact did it have on you personally to now be in this space where your womanhood was basically just being squashed and diminished.
Proverbs 31 is just like the shittest image to like, put on a woman.
And it just typically creates so much shame around never measuring up, never being this like, perfection image of, of who a pure, sweet, my meek and mild woman is. And so what Was that like. Because that is a stark contrast. And so what impact did that have on you.
Michelle:At the time? I think there was a lot of. Of cognitive dissonance.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, I can't, in that moment, can't reconcile this. And so I'm going to believe that this is what God set up, and this is here for my protection.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And down the line, especially as I got older and I wasn't fitting within the parameters that work for that, because for.
For a lot of women, and I think maybe even for myself, if I had fallen into this path, if I had gotten married really young, you know, right out of college, if I had started having children, if I had focused.
Focused on my family and not had any interest in further education or taking on roles or doing other things, you know, that maybe I would have never even realized. I may not have even had time to realize because I would be living that life. I didn't.
I mean, I was almost 40 before I got married, so the whole time I'm in this evangelical situation, I'm single. And once you get past about 25, they don't know what to do with you.
Sam:No.
Michelle:Like, I would regularly have people be like, well, why don't you go to this event over here? And I'll be like, because those people are 18.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I'm like, nothing against them, but we're not in the same world. No, they're 18, and I'm 27. So our lives are very different.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And then another thing that kind of went with that, that binary and that separation was that I was in lots of contexts where women. Where men weren't allowed to talk to women, and I was seen as a threat just even having a conversation. And so it. I.
It started being harder and harder to have the cognitive dissonance because it was like, but you're saying we're a family. You're saying brothers and sisters in Christ. Like, but you're not allowed to talk to me.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, I'm just this. Really. A sex object in the opposite direction because it's like, you are a threat. If we even speak to each other.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Then that's going to. To cause me to stumble.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah.
Sam:It is just. It's wild. Also, like, the, like the mental gymnastics that we play in those moments to make. Make sense. Like.
Michelle:Yes.
Sam:Because there is so much that in that moment, like, you know, cognitive dissonance is that there is a part of you that's going, this doesn't make sense. Like, what is this? Right. But we play so many mental Gymnastics to make it make sense.
Michelle:Yes.
Sam:And that is typically, like, it's exhausting to try and make things make sense that don't make sense. It requires so much mental and emotional energy from us to live something that doesn't feel aligned to us as who we are.
In that space of the way that women were being spoken about and in the image of women we've mentioned the body image stuff and the smoking hot wife and all of that sort of thing.
And so I am imagining that this conversation around not just the way that a woman acts, but the way that a woman looks like is also still front and center of these conversations.
Michelle:Yes. It does very much come up in conversations. I. Like I said, I did spend some time working in vocational ministry.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And there was another woman who was on the ministry team with me. I didn't work in a church. I worked with a parachurch organization.
But there was another woman that got very, very much on kind of the same themes of the way down workshop. Didn't call it that, but very much like eat a certain way and move your body a certain way, and this is all for God.
And you're not seeing your body shrink and look different then some. There's something wrong in your relationship with God. That's why you're not seeing this.
And very much would speak that into my life, as people will say in the Christian. Christian world, you know, I'm just trying to help you. Speaking the truth in love. And it's like, I didn't ask for your input about my body.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:But, Michelle, consent doesn't matter in this conversation.
Michelle:It does not. It does not.
And consent is such a huge thing to me now on the other side, because I'm like, there's so many times where, like, consent didn't matter at all.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, you need to know what is happening. And consent to being given information to having the conversation, like, consent covers so much. It is not just about sexual relationships.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. How long were you in ministry for in this space?
Michelle:Almost 10 years.
Sam:Okay.
Michelle:Yeah. The last three to four were really, really hard.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I. I left when I was almost 34.
Sam:Okay.
Michelle:So I was way past the age that it's okay to be single.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Yeah.
Sam:I'm like. I mean, typically, like, 24 is way past the age. Just.
Michelle:Right.
Sam:Single. Right. So y.
Michelle:Yes.
Sam:Like, I'm curious because I imagine whilst many other people would have expressed their. How they felt about the fact that you were, you know, unwed, you know, not a mother.
All of those things that make you worthy as A woman is to have a ring on your finger and a baby in your arm. But how did you feel about it? Like, we. Was it something that you were okay with? Or what? Did you have a sense that you.
You were missing the mark somewhere or that you had something wrong, that this was not happening? Like, what was your experience of it?
Michelle:The motherhood part? I have really never wanted to have children.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And so I felt a lot of pressure for that to be part of my life. But internally, I didn't feel, like, any grief or, like, that's really something, that longing for that. The marriage piece, I did. Like, I wanted.
I wanted somebody to partner with, to do life, you know, live life. I hate that phrase.
Sam:I know. I say it all the time, and I'm. There are some phrases that still just get stuck in you, and it's harder to get rid of them than others.
Michelle:Yes. Yes. But that piece, like, having a partner, having somebody who is with you along, you know, alongside you for the ride. I did grieve that a lot.
There was a lot of longing for that.
And I also am really glad in some ways that that didn't happen until after I left ministry, because I think the person I would have chosen during that time would not have been the. The best person for me.
Sam:Yeah. My wife jokes that had she met me in the height of my faith era, um, that we would not be together because she's like, you are awful.
And I was like, oh, I know. So you're right in that the people who we were in those spaces would probably not have married the people that we have married today. Yeah.
Michelle:Yes.
I talk about that with my partner often because the messages that I was getting about who I was supposed to be as a woman and my partner does happen to be a man and who I was supposed to look for in a partner.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like, those are not characteristics that he necessarily has, nor are they characteristics that I need.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:The way that our relationship works is based off of, this is who you are as a person, and this is who I am as a person, and this is how we can work together and create a life. Not, oh, you. You know, you are this gender, therefore you must do this thing and you must act in these ways.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I like to ask people who have done ministry for a while is how do you feel about that time period and.
And being in that space and potentially teaching and passing on these, you know, beliefs and practices and mentalities that you were being taught?
Michelle:Yeah. That is such a complex question.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:So there. There are parts of me that grieve. How simple, especially early in the ministry was. I was all in. I was very committed. It.
It felt like I was exactly where I was supposed to be doing what I was supposed to be doing. And I made some really good connections with people.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And I worked with college students and college students are just amazing people. Like, they're young, they have lots of ideas and creativity. A lot of times they haven't been beaten down by the world yet. Like.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:It's just, you know, and so there's part of me that grieves that, like, innocence or naivety of that. That period. There's part of me that gets really angry about the systems that I was part of.
I've heard it said before that a lot of these high control systems end up making an abuser out of everybody. Yeah.
So, you know, you're on one hand you're experiencing abuse, but you're also perpetrating abuse in continuing teachings and in having rigid rules and restrictions and ideas of how people are supposed to be and how they're supposed to show up in the world. And so there's part of me that. That feels like now in my work as a therapist that I get to maybe make some corrections for that.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Of like, you. You get to show up as the person you are and we can explore pieces of identity together if that's something that you want to do.
And nothing is off limits. There's not rules of. You have to fit into to this. So hopefully that helps even things a little bit from.
From some of the harm that I know I perpetrated.
I have had the opportunity to actually talk with some of the students that felt comfortable enough, kind of knowing where I am now in saying, like, this was actually really harmful and being able to own and apologize for the roles that I played in that. And so that has been healing for me, I hope, also maybe for them as well.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:But it's very, very complex.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Topic.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. It's a very. Deconstruction gets talked about in very simplistic terms.
But to deconstruct your beliefs is one thing, but to deconstruct the harmful ways that you might have put those beliefs onto other people and the grief that is attached to that is a very layered.
It's a little bit like that scene from Shrek with the onions and the layers and that sort of thing is that you keep healing and you keep finding another. Another layer in terms of that space that you create for others where you can show up as yourself, and nothing is on off limits.
And that sort of language and space. How long was it for you to allow yourself to experience the same thing?
Michelle:I feel like it's been such a layered journey.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like you were just saying, like. So when I first left ministry, I. I reached a point where I knew I had to. That I just. I couldn't function in that world anymore.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And by that point, I didn't have the words at the time, but by that point, I had been experiencing spiritual abuse for about three years. And I was really in the throes of. Of a trauma reaction.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And it was actually working with my own therapist that one day she said, michelle, it sounds like you're having a trauma reaction. And for me, that word was really freeing of, like, oh, there's a reason that I'm responding this way. And so there it was, layers and layers of.
Of unpacking things. I.
When I went to grad school and decided to pursue being a mental health counselor, I did not plan to work with survivors of spiritual abuse or religious trauma or folks who are in faith transitions. I was not in a place where I could talk with other people about that yet.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I actually think for me, my grad school experience, yes, there was the academic part, but part of it was healing of just having conversations and being around people, that we're talking about different identities being accepted and exploring different parts of yourself and not this. There's one rigid way to be. And also working with different professors or other students who were men, and we could have these conversations.
We can be in a room alone and be discussing this project, and nothing is happening.
All of these things that, you know, everyone in my previous world was so afraid of, like, we're just two adults having a conversation about a thing that we need to talk about.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And so that was really healing for me.
And I was probably about seven or eight years out of my own experience before I felt like I can actually have conversations about this with other people. And I feel like I can support them. And I. I really, truly can show them compassion. And that has helped me show more compassion to myself.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I think we. I think all of the people who are current therapists who work in this space were never. None of us set out to work in this space, like, necessarily.
I think there are people who are now choosing to sort of go and study to work in this space, and I think that that's fabulous. But I think that a lot of the. The ones of us who are doing it presently, we didn't we didn't necessarily actively choose to work in this space.
And I think that, I mean, I know for myself, I probably even resisted working in this space for a little while as well. Like, it just felt very raw and very, very real and a bit too touchy for a while. And. And I think that it's.
Yeah, it, I think it's a hard space to work in when you have lived experience in that. In that same space in any demographic and niche. Not necessarily just this.
But in terms of whilst you were doing all of this and you were out of ministry, what was your relationship with f and church throughout all of this?
Michelle:That has been very complicated.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:When I left ministry, I had a lot of anger toward God. And I honestly, this was such a freeing moment because it was something I would have never said until this moment.
I really trusted my therapist and I was sitting in a session one day and I was like, I just feel like that either God is a jackass or he doesn't exist.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because how did I end up here? And it was really freeing to be able to say that and it just to be held. Yeah, we don't have to have an answer to that right now.
It's okay to feel that way. And there honestly was nowhere else where I could have said that at the time.
Yeah, I've had moments where I've really wanted to be back involved with a church, not. Not a conservative evangelical church, not a Southern Baptist church.
I'm much more aware of what do the churches that I am considering believe and how does that actually play out. And so I will dip my toe in and get involved and then something will happen. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I can't do this right now.
And so I have not regularly gone to church in, I don't know, probably 10 years. Yeah, I've had periods where I have tried and then, you know, things have, have, have happened and there's.
There's no space to really talk about what's happening. Yeah, I've had experiences where I, I felt strong enough to bring it up to a leader and say, like, hey, this is happening. Like, this is not okay.
Hasn't been received very well, a lot of times overlooked.
And so that's actually one thing that I am passionate about, is if there are folks who are leading in these religious spaces who want to understand mental health, who want to understand trauma and religious trauma and how it can happen and how you can help create more trauma aware, trauma informed environments. Yeah, I love being able to provide some education around that.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And I find that there's not a lot of people who. At least in. In my world, not a lot of people who want that.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:They're doing. Doing church the way they're doing church, and they're happy with how it's happening.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely.
Sam:Do you think that the part of you, like, when you were dipping your toes into some of these churches, was that because there was like a.
A part of you that felt there was something missing, or was it the part of you that felt like you should be in church, like it's just what you are supposed to do?
Michelle:I'm sure it was probably both.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I think as time passed, the. The should part got smaller.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And it was. I actually want to try to figure out if there's a way that I can connect with this version of God.
And I want to try to figure out if there can be community and. And like, sharing space and life and. And all of the things with other people, then I think I got to a place where this is more about community.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I know what I believe, and I don't necessarily need everybody in the church to believe the same thing that I do. And I don't even necessarily feel like I have to show up for, you know, all of the services or all of the events.
I'd like to connect with some people.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And then I kind of got to a place where I'm not sure these are the people I want to connect with.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because I kept having experiences where it was like, this feels like a performance.
It doesn't feel like we're actual humans connecting with each other, and that whatever version of yourself that you're bringing in is accepted and wanted here. You are supposed to bring a certain version of yourself here.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. And I find that that loss of belonging and the grief around community is just one of the most painful parts of this whole experience.
And usually I would be curious about the impact that it had on, like, relationships and family, but I suspect that that probably wasn't a huge impact for you if ironically, the. The safer of the faith spaces that you came from was your family of origin, and the more harmful space was the college ministry space.
But did it impact your relationships?
Michelle:It did. It. I mean, a lot of my young adult relationships were with people who either were in the ministry space or very connected adjacent to it.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And despite lots of people being like, it's okay that you're not involved anymore, or we understand why you're not coming to this church anymore, we'll still have a connection that did not play out.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Which is really, really hurtful because there are some of those people who I was like, I feel like our connection is actually real. It's outside of this. This entity.
And when those people stopped responding to text or, you know, stop being available to spend time together, that's really hurtful.
And then with my family, it's interesting because as I kind of opened up and moved away from more conservative and, like, rigid, strict beliefs, there's people in my family that have moved more toward conservative, rigid kind of beliefs. And so there's definitely times where I can tell the conversation is strained because they don't know what to say or, like, they say something and I.
I will challenge it a little bit. And that is not met very kindly. And so there's moments where it's like, I feel like we don't have the connection or the relationship we could have.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Simply because we don't hold identical religious beliefs.
Sam:Yeah. Yeah.
Sam:And I think that particularly it is not the same here in Australia, but in the US I often say, like, the, like, everything is just enmeshed with religion. Right. Like, there's pretty much not a part of the way that your society runs where religion is not touching it in some way.
And we're obviously seeing that very, very clearly at the moment.
And so how is it for you watching, I guess, the national scale of religious harm and religious weaponization that is happening in, and I suspect, like most other US People with religious trauma, the narrative around Christian nationalism is trigger triggering is all get out.
Michelle:Yeah, it is.
It's really hard to, like, see things, hear news stories, to have this awareness of, like, how Christian nationalism is happening and how it's tied up in these harmful beliefs.
And then for me to go from having conversations with folks that I work with who are also very aware of the impacts, who may be experiencing fear and anxiety and questioning and, you know, not sure how to. How to even react to things.
And then to move into conversations with folks in other parts of my life that maybe agree with a lot of what is happening or don't see that there are any issues. And sometimes, sometimes it's hard for me of, like, wow, there is a lot of cognitive dissonance there.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And you're saying that you are a Christian.
You're saying that you believe in Jesus, that you believe in this particular version of Jesus, but then all of the things that you're supporting don't really align with this loving. Yeah, man. That accepted refugees and talks to women and, like, you know, hung out with people he wasn't supposed to hang out with.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Like that's not. Not what we're seeing. And trying to figure out what level to engage that to be able to maintain my own mental health.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And then also realizing that I have some privilege in not having to engage it all the time that other people don't. Don't have.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:For some folks it's. They can't turn off the news. They can't spend time unaware.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Of. Of some of the things going on.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely. What does spirit. I mean, you're obviously surrounded by religion. Right. Like it's in the waters in the U.S.
but what does your own personal sense of spirituality look like? Because those two things are not the same thing.
Michelle:No, they are not. I like to refer to it as. I can tell you what I feel like right now. I don't know that I will feel or believe the same thing in 10 minutes.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:10 days. Most of the time. Right now I would probably call myself a somewhat hopeful agnostic because I feel like there is something bigger than us out there.
Like there is something to connect to. And I think there's lots of ways to connect to that something.
And I'm not sure what name or label to give the something, but I am sure that it is not the, the he male version of God that I was given.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:In religion.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:How do you feel about the drawing that little Michelle drew in Sunday School now?
Michelle:Yeah. Oh, I feel so much compassion for her.
And sometimes I really feel a longing of like I wish I could erase all of these things that happen in the middle.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And like just be there. Have that vision of who God is and like live based off of that.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah, it is. I mean, it's just such a. It's almost such a pure perspective. For a child to have to then have lost that is almost heartbreaking.
What has helped you along the healing journey in terms of. You know, you also mentioned earlier on in the episode of really realizing around your own neurodivergence and tackling some of the body based stuff.
And I know that that's also a space you work in. And so what has that healing journey looked like for you personally?
Michelle:There's been a few things that have been really helpful just in he and I, and I feel like all three of those things, the, the religious trauma, the body image and then the neurodivergence all get kind of tied together for me. I know that's not the case for everybody, but I, I think back now that I have become Aware of my own neurodivergence.
I think back to times where I'm like, oh, that makes so much sense of how I experienced this, you know, in church or in religion or thinking about how the teachings in religion intersected with diet culture. And so for me, therapy was really helpful.
I even early on I was working with a therapist that wasn't familiar with religious trauma, but was trauma informed.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And it was just really helpful to have that space. My grad school program was actually helpful. And healing, even though that's not why I went into it.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:But it provided a space to have some different kinds of relationships. So I guess the takeaway is being able to have those different kinds of relationships and interact with people in a different way.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And be really healing. And then especially early on, I devoured any book I could find. There weren't that many out there at the time.
I think the one of the first ones I came across, I believe it was called When. When I was on Fire or When we were on Fire and kind of that idea of being on fire for God. Oh.
And that was the first, like, memoir that I read of somebody of like, oh, okay. I'm not the only one that.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:You know, so devouring books. I still love to read books of other people's experience. And just a reminder that, like, I'm not alone. I didn't make this up. It's real.
And podcast, same thing. Podcasts weren't really that big of a thing when I first started my healing journey. But then as they became more.
And as I became aware of podcasts where people were sharing their stories and. Or people were shining light on like systemic abuses that were happening within religion. That's been a big thing.
And then connecting with others who are doing work in the space, whether it's therapists or advocates, you know, people who are leaders in churches or faith based spaces, but also very much aware of religious trauma and care about not perpetuating it. So all of those things have been really, really healing.
Sam:I mean, aside from the community one and the connection with others, they're all very like critical thought questions, information heavy, and all of the things that are typically not allowed in high control spaces. Right. Like questions and broad information and differing perspectives.
And it doesn't fit into that very black and white binary perspective of we have the right information and the truth and everything else is rubbish. I. I did a post yesterday. That was yesterday when we're recording not when this comes out, but the joys of podcasting.
That was like, they told Me to put on the armor of God. And I picked up critical thinking instead.
And as you were talking, I was like, all of these things are giving you the skills to be able to think critically about yourself and about relationships and the world around you. And yet it's typically stuff that is. Is demonized, literally sometimes.
Michelle:Yes. And it's so aligned with how my brain actually functions.
Like I want to take in all of the information, you know, and so being having the freedom to do that and to think critically and to gather the information and to gather it from various sources. Like there's not only this one, you know, you're allowed to read this one person's work or to interpret it. This one way has been so helpful.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because even hearing people's stories from different backgrounds and spaces and being able to see like, oh, those are similar aspects. Oh, that's very different than what I experienced.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:I have literally just thought of this question in the last like 10 seconds. So I'm not sure it will come out as smoothly and as eloquently, but I find, and I have absolutely zero research to back this statement up.
I want to be very clear, but I find that high control and faith based spaces, environments that neurodivergent people thrive in.
And so I am curious what your thoughts are about, like, your new understanding about that part of you and how perhaps the environment impacted or kept you in that space, perhaps longer.
Michelle:Yeah, normally, yes, I have noticed some of the same. I, I've actually been trying to find some research.
Sam:Yeah. I don't think it exists.
Michelle:I don't think it exists yet. I hope someone will. Maybe he is working on some of that now.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:But I, I think that high control religious environments offer a lot of things that are attractive to neurodivergent folks. Yeah. Until the point they don't.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I think there often comes a point where it's like, oh, but you aren't acting the way we think you should or you're not showing up the way that you're quote, unquote supposed to.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And then that's where religious trauma can happen because it's like you're being punished for existing as the person that you are.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Which is true for a lot of other identities and these high control spaces as well. But I think to me right now that's kind of striking as, as how these high control spaces and neurodivergence intersect.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:That they can be very attractive. And then. Because there definitely were things I was drawn to.
Sam:Oh, yeah.
Michelle:You know, I'm a rule follower. Give me the rules, I control religion. We'll give you the rules.
Sam:Yeah, yeah.
Michelle:But then if you start questioning the rules or you're like, this rule doesn't make sense, I'm not going to follow that one anymore.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And that becomes a problem.
Sam:Absolutely. I'm more than happy to follow rules that make sense and that and rules that don't perpetuate harm.
And unfortunately, those two things are not always and typically not in those spaces. But whilst you are in it, it's really hard to see that until, you know, the curtain is pulled back and you can't unsee it.
But yeah, I think the more conversations I have with these episodes, the more I realize that there are so many more spaces that research needs to be done around the impact of high control religion and, and just faith spaces in general and different parts of our identity. There is just like a desperate need in so many places.
Michelle:It definitely is.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:I mean, I, I think about the number of, of folks that I work with who are maybe in their 30s or 40s or 50s and they're like, I feel like I'm going through adolescence again.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:Because it's the first time they've gotten the opportunity to actually think about, like, what do I. Like.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:You know, what am I interested in? What hobbies do I want to pursue? Who do I want to have a relationship with? What kind of relationship might I want to have?
Rather than, here is what you will do with your time, here is who you will have a relationship with, and here is what it will look like.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Yeah. There's so much expansion, but that expansion is like, terrifying if you've come from a place of rigidity and, and strict dogmatic perspectives.
So it is beautiful and liberating, but also absolutely terrifying if you are doing that at an age that feels strange and scary. Yeah. One of the, the questions that I like to finish these episodes with is and I.
Again, it's always really interesting to me when I'm asking this topic to people who have listened because I feel like you've had an added advantage, Michelle, to probably have think of your answer. But what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction?
They are in the knee deep of like, healing their own religious trauma or they've potentially just left their community or been kicked out of their community.
Michelle:I think the two things that immediately come to mind is that your experience is real.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And it doesn't matter how it may look like somebody else's or not look like somebody Else's. It is real and that if you experience it as harm, then it was harmful.
Sam:Yeah.
Michelle:And then the other thing is that you don't have to move at a certain pace. There's no timeline of like, you know, I, I must be this level of healed at this point.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:My, My clients get sick of hearing me say slow is fast, but it, it is just like our nervous system is not supposed to heal fast. It is supposed to heal gently and slowly at a pace that is, is. Is yours, your pace, everybody else's pace. So I love. Yeah.
Michelle:And that can be so scary too, coming out of these environments where you didn't have control over anything. Like. What do you mean, my pace? I. I get to have autonomy of. Of how quickly I do something or how I do something.
Sam:Yeah, absolutely.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:And so I love that your pace is. Is what is most important in that space. Absolutely. Thank you for joining me and thank you for being, you know, the. In working.
Working in this space in the US it is, I think, probably very different to us working in it down here in Australia.
And I just think that, you know, whilst we are working with the same stuff and similar experiences, there are some nuanced differences in environments and things like that. So. But thank you for being here and thank you for sharing your story.
Michelle:Thank you so much for the opportunity. I always, when I see your content on social media and things, I'm always struck by the similarities.
Like, we're so far apart geographically, but also the similarities that show up are so strong.
Sam:Absolutely.
Michelle:It.
Sam:It expands. It's.
I think we did a post on the Collectives page which was like, different accents, same experiences, and, and that's kind of ringing true in this conversation is that there is so many similarities, but we just have different accents and we just live in different locations. But unfortunately the threads are very still interconnected, so.
Sam:Yeah.
Sam:Well, thank you again for joining me.
Michelle:Thank you.
Sam:Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.
If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from.
Sam:From these stories.
Sam:Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone.
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.
