The Religious Trauma Expert

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagar land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be, aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, laura. Thanks for joining me.

01:42 - Dr Laura (Guest)

It's so good to be here. Thanks for having me, Sam.

01:44 - Sam (Host)

I'm so excited about this episode. Before we started recording I fangirled a little bit because for us in Australia, especially religious trauma is an emerging field. I mean it's an emerging field in general, but particularly Australia. We tend to be extra behind the times on things and so to have resources like the book that you've not long released is just a real to you know, use a really religious language. It's a blessing.

02:24 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Hashtag bless yeah.

02:25 - Sam (Host)

I know, so I'm really excited, and all of my religious trauma therapy friends are also really excited for this episode. So, yeah, where in the world are you? Are you in Nashville? Yes, I'm in Nashville.

02:42 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Tennessee in the world. Are you? Are you in Nashville? Yes, I'm in Nashville, tennessee, in the United States, right in the buckle of the Bible belt yeah it's very common.

02:51

Like literally, when I moved here, people are like, like, who are you like, what's your name and what church do you go to? That is just how it is the expected. That is how you connect with people. They just oh, you go to this church. Well, I know somebody who goes to that church. I go over here. You know is there's a couple roads in town Like I say, town, it's a bit, it's a bigger city, but I mean it's just lined with churches. You know, it's just, this is how it is here. So, yeah, it is part of the culture.

03:23 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, we have that, but it's pubs like bars, A little different yeah. One is much more fun and probably one is much less traumatizing. But okay, so most people will know you in terms of the religious trauma work that you do. But where does your story start?

03:50 - Dr Laura (Guest)

My story starts, I think, probably a couple days after I was born. Um, yeah, I think that I was. I mean, I'd have to go back, like in the calendar, I was born like midweek, but by that Sunday I was in church. In the calendar, I was born like midweek, but by that Sunday I was in church. So, truly, I mean there is very. I mean I was just. It was like eat, breathe, sleep. That was my entire life, from the moment I was born.

04:15

Very early on in childhood my father accepted a position as a director at an evangelical Christian camp. So we grew up in fundamentalism, um, went to an evangelical free church, uh, like church, and um, which is, for those people who don't really know what, that is the way I describe it. I think there might be some flexibility in how those churches operate, but it's kind of like this it's the hellfire brimstone of Southern Baptist churches. It is the stoicism of Lutheranism, the rigidity of church of Christ, wrapped up in reformed theology. So it's all of the fun stuff. Yeah, it's all of the fun stuff, right. And then evangelizing oh, my gosh, right, cause that's you gotta, you gotta do that. But it's it really derives from the Dutch reformed church. That's kind of where its roots come from. Um, when and so when people find that out cause there's a lot of people that are like, oh, the evangelical free church, that's not that bad. And then they hear it's from the Dutch reformed church and they're like, oh, okay, now we know what's really going on.

05:30

ity pledge card, like back in: 1993

07:11

Essentially, I went to a community college, I got involved in the local church, I was recruited to volunteer in the youth group, which I hated, but they told me God called me to do it, and who am I to question that? I started working at the church full-time in paid ministry, and it was a very spiritually abusive situation. Of course, I didn't know that at the time. I didn't have language. How we talked about it back then was not how we can talk about it now. We didn't have words like that. I could feel it in my body, but I didn't know how to actually speak about it.

07:46

And I can think back now and I'm like, oh wow, I have these moments where I really questioned things, but my livelihood was tied to like being a professional Christian, and so there wasn't space to actually dive deep into it, because I knew that if I kept asking, like pulling those threads, my community, my livelihood, my work, my community, my living situation would all be taken away. So yeah, that's. I mean there's way more that could be gone into with that. But that's kind of like where I started and so it's like baked into me. It was for a long time, yeah.

08:29 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I think one of the things that a lot of people don't realize when they think about people who are in organized religion is everything has such an eternal purpose, like every like little decision that people just take for granted in terms of just being able to make a very simple decision is, um, is is huge, um. I mean, I chatted to Joy Vetterlein who described it as like frantic thinking, like what, if, like? And it's just like this eternal purpose that everything has.

09:07 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Everything.

09:08 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

09:09 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah absolutely.

09:10

I mean, everything was agonizing. It's like what should I eat for breakfast? You know, like what? What if I take this route to classes instead of this route to classes? What if I wear this shirt instead of that shirt? You know, like everything, the amount of anxiety that you live with. That just becomes your baseline, as like normal. Um, I was like you don't even know that you're living with that much until all of a sudden you get out of it and you're like oh, I can just like what I want to eat for breakfast. Oh, I can just like what I want to eat for breakfast. Or I can just like wear the shirt that appeals to me on a given day, or just choose the route that I want to go this way. Like you don't even realize that, but yes, it's agonizing to live in a space like that for decades for many of us.

10:01 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely. What was it like for little Laura to grow up in that environment.

10:08 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Oh, I have so much compassion for her. She tried so hard to not fit in. She you know, there's these moments still that I have like there's a lot of creativity and she was very emotional, like so emotional, but there wasn't a space for that. You know, in high control religions emotion is. Well, we know, emotion is the language of the body and the body is so vilified. So therefore, obviously the language that the body speaks would also be vilified. And I learned I mean I couldn't articulate it, but I learned that that was not okay. I was punished all the time for having emotional outbursts and for being what my parents would call passionate.

10:59 - Sam (Host)

Oh, wow.

11:00 - Dr Laura (Guest)

My responses to things, my responses to things, and at some point in my childhood I figured out silence is probably going to be best here, but there was a lot of time that I would spend by myself in my room in my own imagination, which I think was probably in some ways what saved me, like gave me like a creative outlet of like this own, my own world that I could create and probably, and also like I read a lot of books as a result, so also kind of gave me worlds that I could connect to that were beyond kind of like what my present allowed for. I will say, my family, my, my mother, is an educator by by her own education. I also grew up in a blue state in the United States, so education is valued much differently in blue States than in red States. So I live currently in a red state and the education system here is very different than how I grew up. Yeah, that was a huge benefit to me for a myriad of reasons, one of which was just the involvement that I was able to have free of charge. We obviously were very poor because we grew up at a camp, had to had to ask people for money to pay us, you know, to pay my, my father, and so I had unique opportunities. Um, through that, you know, like most kids don't get to have like a horse corral in their backyard and things like that, so I don't.

12:39

I. Now I'm like, oh my gosh, that is actually like really cool, um, and I and I think I took it for granted at the time because as a kid you just like don't know some of those things so it's this like balancing act of like I had some really cool opportunities. And then I also realized that there was these very pivotal moments where I had to really like fight or was asked to like cut parts of myself off to try to fit some very specific molds. I have this one memory that always pops up and I laugh now because like it's like the true me was trying to always come out and like it had to do with modesty. Of course, I had gotten these like hand-me-down clothes and it was back when, like, cool lots were in, which have never been cool, you know, and I don't know who can pull cool lots off. I just, you know, I never could.

13:40

I have short legs and I'm very curvy and I always have been, like, no matter what size I've been. I just have curves and I love that. And um, and I w I was in like late elementary, maybe early middle middle school very tiny but curvy nonetheless, like probably starting to get curves. You know, like going through puberty, and I had this whole load of hand-me-down clothes and my mom's like try these on. And I try these culottes on. She's like, oh, that's great, right, cause they're modest. And I like I like look in the mirror and I'm like, yeah, yeah, like I, I can be this girl. And I then I'm like first out laughing and I was like no, you can't, these are so not you.

14:32

And I just I laughed at that because I had those brief moments where I was like you knew from a very young age this was so not who you were, but you also knew you didn't have a choice, like you just had to button it up and just do what you had to do. So yeah it's. I feel like it's. It's moments like that where I I had these where I could like pop out and then, you know, had to kind of go back under.

15:02

I feel very grateful that I had a public school education, for that reason, where I always was able to like keep touch with what I might call like reality, simply because I just was always able to have non-Christian friends and non-religious friends and though I wasn't able to really spend time with them outside of school or anything like that, I would have eight hours a day, and that always caused a lot of conflict because internally, you know, I was, you know, being.

15:32

I didn't want to be pulled down by the devil and I didn't want to be influenced by my peers, and that was a lot of internal struggle. But I look back now and that was always like really good for me to have kind of a different touch point. I look back now and that was always like really good for me to have kind of a different touch point. I was very heavily involved in extracurricular well, like music and anything in the arts and academics and athletics, and that was really good too. So I felt more rounded there, which helped me, you know, come out the other side and feel a little bit like not completely under or in that bubble until I graduated from high school and then dove in headfirst and I'm just like, oh God, I made that choice then for myself, was there?

16:17 - Sam (Host)

was there a part of you that, when you know, going to a public school but being raised in that very sort of fundamental religion? Was there a part of you that just, uh, saw the other kids as, um, I just need to tell them about Jesus, because that's what I would have done yeah, I mean, it was such a.

16:36 - Dr Laura (Guest)

It was like this internal conflict because you know, of course, we are in this religion where you're supposed to evangelize, right, and you get like jewels on your crown in heaven, like you know, if you lead your friends to Christ.

16:47 - Sam (Host)

And what?

16:47 - Dr Laura (Guest)

little girl doesn't want crowning jewels, exactly, it's like oh my gosh, of course I want jewels on my crown, but like I do not want to tell my friends about this, this is not cool to me. And like nobody else is talking about this, everybody else is talking about TV shows and celebrities. So like I have, in that sense I have no frame of reference, like I'm not watching TV shows, I'm not watching movies, I'm not listening to music, I'm not that part, I am totally absented. There is one other girl who's a Jehovah's Witness that I can connect with in that sense, who has no other like touch point, but of course she's dangerous too and I'm dangerous to her because, like I'm a cult and she's a cult like we're being told the other person is in a cult.

17:43

Yeah, I have the truth and she's wrong right, yeah, but we also are like like kindred spirits in a weird way you know, yeah, and we can connect because we know nothing about what our friends are talking about.

17:57

so it's so. It's this weird thing that like we know that we're supposed to be like in, like individually evangelizing to our friends, but neither of us are are wanting to do that. And so I know I felt that internal turmoil of I should be doing this, you know, and it's always that guilt trip of like, but Jesus died on the cross for you. You can't even share that with your friends and I just I just never could. I mean I don't know that I led a single people person to the Lord. I just I have no crap, no jewels on my crown. Mine is bare with that like I would rather be kind than like have the jewels absolutely.

18:51 - Sam (Host)

I mean, I wish I could say that, but I'm pretty sure there's lots of people that I have lots of harm that have been done.

19:02 - Dr Laura (Guest)

But I mean, I think it definitely harms people, like in the name of the Lord and like in some leadership positions and things like that. But that is one thing I just I always, always struggled with the evangelism piece. I just could never understand why I have always been such a relationship person that I was like if anybody is going to quote unquote come to the Lord, it is going to be because I have a relationship with them and they will see God in that. And to this day, like I'm still that relationship person, that part of me has not changed. I just like the God. The evangelism part that's not there, like I'm just going to still show up and like be in relationship with people.

19:54 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely, and I feel like I think, are you an Enneagram four? Yeah, yeah, yeah, same, okay. So there is like this, just undercurrent of like never quite fitting in Right. Yeah, and that's really hard when you are supposed to be this light to the darkness, because you're like I don't even know how to turn my own light on, let alone.

20:23 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, and also I kind, also I kind of like the darkness yeah exactly.

20:27 - Sam (Host)

Darkness is nice, it's safe, it's cozy, it's warm. Yeah, okay, I mean, and you talk a lot about purity culture and I mean, let's be honest, purity culture has a lot to account for and it's really, really fucked. A lot of people up and and so I remember reading a book and I never read. I kissed dating goodbye, but I had an instant like flashback to a memory of reading and the bride wore white.

21:03 - Dr Laura (Guest)

And I.

21:03 - Sam (Host)

I read that in your book and I was like, oh my gosh, I haven't seen that like book title for years and years. What was it like? Already sort of not really fitting in and yet having these messages bombarded about you that essentially, like you know, you are just this placeholder for men that your body is, is, you know, is your body is a temple, but also your body is really really shit.

21:33 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah so, and the bride wore white came out my senior year of high school and.

21:39

I did a Bible study, book study, you know, of course, preparing for, um, becoming a bride, you know, and um, so it's an interesting thing and I think you might understand this as a therapist. Like, developmentally, where we're at at that age, you know, it's a very confusing time, just that adolescence age, from probably 17 to 23, 24, 25, there is so much that's changing in and around us and we are, and for good reason, we're finding our identity in a new way and that makes us highly suggestible, it makes us. There's a whole I mean it's a whole other podcast that we could go into of like why does purity culture target that age of people? And you know all the things right. But purity culture provided this very like, straightforward, clear cut, black and white path of like you do these things and you will get this reward.

22:47

And I hated all of the rules of purity culture because, on a very human level, it sounded terrible to have to wait to touch somebody until I was married. Now, granted, I hadn't done that yet, Like I hadn't kissed anybody, I had it, I'd held hands with a boy and felt extremely guilty, but I hadn't done anything, but this idea that now I have to also then wait until I'm married felt terrible because I just I didn't want to do that. But this idea of like here's this really clear cut path and if you do this, you'll have this reward, that felt stable to me. And Diana Grash, who's the author of In the Bride wore white, and even Josh Harris Ike is stating goodbye. And then, of course, the Eric and Leslie Lutie and some other authors who are coming out with these extremely prescriptive texts, like laid it all out there. And for somebody who's floundering, and I felt like I was in this like choppy sea, like just trying to keep my head above water. It's like here's this, like not only this life preserver, but this like solid ground that I was able to stand on, and it felt really stable. And so, even though I hated everything they were saying, I was like I can do that because everything else around me feels so chaotic and I just I was like quote, unquote, sold out for it and I just started.

24:19

Not only did I start living it, I started teaching it to other people as well, and and I really believed, if I followed these things and if I did these things perfectly, I would get this reward of this incredible marriage, this amazing husband, this out of this world sex, and like great children and life would be wonderful, you know. And then I would, and then I turned 20 and 21 and 25, and you know almost 30. And I get to this point and I'm like I did all the things, yeah, and like nothing, like none of that happened, um, nothing was as promised, and I was so tired of people being like, well, you know, maybe it's this sin or that sin or this unconfessed thing or whatever, or you're just not trusting God enough, or it's not about the reward, it's about you, and I'm just like, no, I think it all of it has to be rethought, um, and and then I just chucked it all out the window oh, but the more.

25:28 - Sam (Host)

The more I hear people talk about purity culture and and the stability that it provides for a young person, um the more I picture um the feeling that Ariel would have gotten when she first got her legs into like that, that stability. But um, to get that stability, uh, was almost a sacrificial of freedom and um and and life, almost um. Was there a part of you that internalized the um decade of waiting that had where you went? What is wrong with me?

26:11 - Dr Laura (Guest)

uh, say more about that, like internalized yeah.

26:14 - Sam (Host)

So, like you said, like you know, 21 came and 25 and 30 and still no, still no man for the marriage which is on the pedestal. Um was, like you know, people are saying is it this sin? Is it that sin? Maybe you need to pray more. Was there a part of you that did internalize that in terms of like? Is there something wrong with me?

26:37 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, there was certain times that I did, like, there was certain instances that people would point back to, like there was, um, like there was a relationship that I had where, granted, we did not do anything sexually. Like he kissed me on the hand yeah Right, I know he has permission, but did he?

26:59 - Sam (Host)

ask your father's permission.

27:01 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Well, that's just it, right, yeah, but it was a relationship that the church elders did not like, and so like people would say, oh well, god's punishing you for that, and I like, finally, you know, I was like that happened when I was, I want to say 21, 22, maybe 23. Like we were together for like two years or something and and they're telling me this when I'm like 27, I'm like that was like six, five, six years ago. We didn't do anything. And you're telling me that God is punishing me six years later for this relationship that A I've repented for, I've made amends for, I have like literally bent over backwards to like get back in the good graces of the church and and given so much time and energy and effort and somehow God is like I'm still kind of pissed off at you and so you don't deserve to get married. Um and so that just like I couldn't explain it, I couldn't understand it, but I think those were like some of the little threads that were being pulled where I was like this just does not sit quite right with me. But I also realized at the time I was still in that very insulated environment. So there were, I feel like there was only so much that I could allow myself to ask, and it really wasn't until I moved here to Nashville, where I felt safer to be able to really be like hold on a second Like was that really like? Do I really like serve a God that is going to punish me for years and years for like telling the elders like I, I'm going to make a choice to date somebody that you person I don't even know like decided you don't want me to date for literally no reason other than you just made a decision one day. You know like I don't know that I believe in a God like that anymore. And so that that was so.

29:25

Those were some big kind of moments where I was like I was very much ready to release them, but I needed to get to literally like a physical safe place to be able to let that go, because the community that I was in it just was like so much guilt piled up on top of each other. So I think there was that there definitely was some internalized like shame of, like what is wrong with me, and I think that once I left all of that, a lot of that really disappeared. I think it was stuff that I was taking from that community, from that group. Because now I look back and I'm like I am so glad that I didn't have a partner during that time. I mean I have much compassion for myself during the 12 years of my adulthood where I was in that because I know I was trying so hard, but I'm so glad that I don't have an ex-partner and children from that space, because that would be a lot. I mean my life would look very different now today, you know, than it does.

30:40 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and so up until the point where you know, things started to unravel for you and those big questions started to come. What was your personal relationship with God like?

30:55 - Dr Laura (Guest)

s, probably back in the early: 2000

31:26

My first day of my master's degree was actually one of the first times where I was like oh, we've got a lot of questions here, and it was just I can't even remember the exact statement that my professor made. I was in an ethics course and, um, he said something about the way that we view people and, um, I said, oh, my gosh, if that statement is true and I am pretty sure that it is there is a lot of untangling that I have to do, because what I realized was like we have been putting people in boxes and I don't think that people actually fit in boxes, and I could conceptualize that if they don't fit in boxes in this area, then they don't fit in boxes in all of these other areas.

32:14

And I was like then they don't fit in boxes in all of these other areas, and I was like I think my life is about to change in some pretty crazy ways.

32:19 - Sam (Host)

Everything is about to implode.

32:21 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yes, but it was one of those moments where I knew like we're not quite safe yet. But we're almost safe because I was at the beginning of my master's degree program, so I knew there was a light at the end of the tunnel. I knew that that was going to be the thing that would get me out of that community, because it was giving me a career that could literally take me anywhere. I wasn't going to be dependent on finding another church to work for whatever. I could move to any state or any country with that degree and find work. And so it was like my, it was like almost like my brain and my body knew we can, like start to pull out these threads a bit harder, um and and then, halfway through my master's degree, I actively started looking for places to move because I knew like this is, we can, we can actually do this.

33:11 - Sam (Host)

So yeah, um, yeah, what did it feel like to start pulling on those threads?

33:18 - Dr Laura (Guest)

um, pretty liberating, a little scary, but mostly liberating. And then at some point I was like very much like let's go, let's get this process going. I was like I knew I didn't fit anymore in that, in that community, and I was just like you know, like when you want to flex your wings and just like fly, and you're like this place is holding me back.

33:40

I just got to leave, but I can't yet, and so it felt like a little stifling, um, but I was just ready, I, I just was so ready to get out of there, um, so it felt good, um, and and then, but you know how like it's kind of it's like one step forward, two steps back a little bit. You know, cause I think when you grow up in something like that, there's a little bit of that negotiating where you just it's like, okay, I want to ask this, and then you're like, oh, do I, do I really want to go there. I think that's part of the denial piece that we as humans lit, like we use that as a coping mechanism. We're like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to let myself see it a little bit. And then I'm like, oh, I don't know, I might've seen just like a little bit too much and I'm going to kind of put those blinders back on and then I'm going to get.

34:31

I'm going to take them off a little bit more and I'm going to sit in that discomfort, and then that's going to be like a little bit too much. I'll put them back on. And so it's kind of like that like, yeah, you'd like dip your toe in, come back out, dip it in a little bit further, and I kind of feel like that's what it was. And then at some point you're like okay, I'm just like I'm ready to swim in this pool a little bit more and and make some some big moves here. That's yeah. And then I left and I never looked back. I mean, like I literally left the space that I was in yeah and then, and then church, and then religion and um.

35:06

So when I moved, I moved to a place where I had a sibling already. Um, that was intentional on my part because it was a big move and I wanted to have a safeguard, like if I fall flat on my face.

35:36 - Sam (Host)

I need somebody here, I know you're alone.

35:39 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, so that helped a little bit for them to know like, okay, at least we have two kids in like one spot. It was tough for them. I think that I am not what I've not. I've not followed the path, the traditional path. I mean, clearly I'm a 42 year old single woman who has not had children, will not have children, has my own business and is educated Like you know what I mean, like that's, that's not the path you know, and so I think the idea that I mean it wasn't 30 at the time, but I was quickly approaching 30 and like moving to a different part of the country and had just finished my master's degree I want to be careful.

36:28

I don't speak much about my family in the sense like I don't share their stories because that's their stories, but there is a lot of pushback. Um, it did not go over well for certain family members because I think it was just not what was expected of me and so that was hard because I think, as I don't know how familiar you are with, like family systems, I disrupted the family system, which I've probably always done, but I did it big time.

37:03 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah.

37:05 - Dr Laura (Guest)

I'm the one who, like always disrupts it in the big way. Um, and that was, that was a big thing. Um, that was a big way that I did it, um, and, and so I think that. But, like I said, it was good that I was moving to a space where a sibling already was, because it was, it was familiar and like they could always, you know, kill two birds with one stone type of thing, like on a very practical logistical level.

37:33

But I think, in terms of the family dynamic, it was very unexpected and almost like concrete evidence that I was different and not the cookie cutter that I was. You know, there's like a certain level of denial that I think people can live in of like, oh, like the right guy just hasn't come along for her yet, but like making a move like this is like, oh, I'm actually seeing that like she makes different choices, she does things differently. We're not really sure what she's all about, and now she's moving away. We can't unsee that and I think that that was hard. I don't know that they could articulate that, but I'm pretty sure that that's what was happening yeah, it sort of solidifies the the different right yeah, yes yeah, yeah, yeah.

38:32 - Sam (Host)

I think a lot of people don't necessarily realize the risk that a lot of people take when they start to pull on that thread.

38:40 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, I think so too, and I I I said that even like in the book and it's I've talked about this with so many people as well Like, when people start down this path of like deconstructing their faith, it's probably good that they don't know.

38:58

Like all the pieces of it yeah because if they did, they probably wouldn't go down it and I think, like oftentimes people who have been on this path for a year or two or longer, there is like, with all the relief, there also is grief in it, because there's this sense of like I've lost a lot, like you realize that there's not a lot of areas that this doesn't touch and it changes you in some really profound ways. And it includes all of the most important parts of your life, because when religion is your identity like for so many of us it is it can't not alter every single one of those pieces. It is not just like I'm going to not go to this building twice a week. It is evaluating every single part of your life and every choice you make, and like every piece of clothing you wear.

40:06

You know, I mean it, it it's, it's everything, and so there's so much freedom and liberation in that, and then there's so much grief in that too. Like it is, it just touches everything and yeah. So I'm always like, yeah, go for it. And I am not going to tell you all of the things. Like you're gonna be like this too, yeah.

40:29 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, that too.

40:30 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Like just be really compassionate because it's a lot, yeah, that's everything.

40:38 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I am always reminded that when you, you know, I think in I was gonna say regular, like regular secular life, um, non-religious life, when you shift labels, uh, you tend to take one off but you've still got other ones there, and I find that, uh, when you take off the label of christian and you sometimes don't have anything else there, um that's a really destabilizing space to be in.

41:16 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, I very much agree with that yeah it's very tethering because it is that is your anchor. I mean, it becomes well and it goes back to what we're talking about with purity culture, like it. That was like this stabilizing force, and so you go. I might not like it. Same thing. Go. I might not like it. Same thing with religion I might not like some of the requirements within it, but when it gives me a sense of purpose or identity, or it gives me the stability and support that I'm needing, or this greater purpose in life, like I will accept the bad with the good, yeah, and and yeah, if I can feel a sense of centeredness, I'll take it. As humans, we like that you know, and to not have that.

42:03

It that takes away something that, like speaks to very basic human needs. Yeah, um. So yeah, it's not. It is not always a very like.

42:16 - Sam (Host)

Sometimes it's really fun and then other times it's like really not yeah, yeah we say that while laughing yeah, so just so we don't cry oh, what was it like for you to to reclaim the notion of I am good, my body is good, like, my questions are good. What was that like?

42:44 - Dr Laura (Guest)

yeah. So, interestingly, whenever I moved here to Nashville, I did a very brief stint in a church that was very like, every bit as fundamentalist as the church. I came out of and quickly was like, nope, like my body. I didn't really have much of a relationship with my body, but my body was like big, no, like Nope, can't do that. This feels every bit as sterile and whatever, and I was like listening Okay, we're not doing that. I landed in a church that was like considering themselves, quote unquote, progressive Southern Baptist, which I don't really know that that exists, but you know bless their hearts crying.

43:24

However, one of the things that they that they did well, that I needed at the time was that they allowed for questions and they didn't dismiss like questions and curiosity. And I was only at that church for about 18 months and that was the last church that I went to, um, and I needed that space because I considered that like my stepping stone and they just allowed for questions and they didn't. They didn't stop from asking like people, it was like their, their and their answer wasn't Jesus. Their answer, you know, it wasn't like oh, don't ask that, or you're a doubter for asking that. It was just like that's cool that you're asking, we might not have the answers or, um, that feels actually really scary for you to ask that or you know whatever. And it wasn't even really about coming up with the answers.

44:18

It was more just like we accept the fact that you're asking questions and that a lot of us are, and I think that period of time just felt really necessary for me to just have like a buffer of like yeah, I wasn't ready to not go to church, but I just needed some time to breathe and be like okay, like I could ask questions and not like combust, you know, um, yeah, and and it was just um, there were some really good people that were there that I met. Funnily enough, like some of my good close friends that I'm still friends with today, we all met there. We left there together. You know, like we all left like 10, 12 years ago, um, but like it was, you know, in a gymnasium, so it was very not flashy and it was just kind of a nice stepping stone and I really really appreciated that. Um, and then I started. I did get involved there and I was involved in a small group and, funnily enough, everybody in our small group no longer attends.

45:38

I mean those who deconstruct together like we were like the black sheep small group, like, for whatever reason, nobody in our small group and like, and it was like a, and maybe this is why, like it was, so we had so much fun together.

45:55 - Sam (Host)

That's why.

45:56 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, exactly, and none of us go to church or anything. But but yeah, I got involved in that. I got involved in the worship team and and yeah, I just one day I was like I'm really burned out from being involved and I'm going to take a break from the worship team. And I went to church the next Sunday as a participant and then I was like I think I'm going to take a break from church next week and that turned into a month, which turned into I don't know like 12, 13 years or so. We're still on a break. Yeah, it's like Ross and Rachel, we are on a break 12, 13 years.

46:46 - Sam (Host)

It's definitely a break, definitely yeah on a permanent break.

46:52 - Dr Laura (Guest)

So yeah, what?

46:54 - Sam (Host)

what? What was that finding a new sense of spirituality and connectedness like for you?

47:03 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Yeah, I think, even when I left, I wasn't ready to, like, give up God, um, and sometimes I still don't know like, and actually I prefer it that way because I think for such a long time I have been defined. I was defined by labels which have so many other meanings attached to them and, um, I am so tired of that, oh my'm there's no way I'm letting my wife cut this out.

47:38 - Sam (Host)

Um, as you are talking about that, um, somehow, zoom, just let fireworks go off around, laura, and so, um, I love that. As you're talking about like finding a new sense of spirituality, we have fireworks oh my gosh.

47:57 - Dr Laura (Guest)

I'm gonna have to figure out what is happening with me. Um, yeah, but I, um I kind of did like dive into like different spiritual traditions and practices. That was very interesting to me, kind of trying to redefine who is God. I really wanted to make God work, trying to figure out like a more progressive form of spirituality, christianity, you know, giving up different theological doctrines, like all of those things that felt really important to me. I didn't, I didn't want to live in a world where God didn't exist. That felt very untenable. Um, and yet this version of God that I had been taught about just felt so abusive to me. And, um, because I also realized and especially from my own therapeutic training and working with domestic violence clients, which was, was and still is a specialty of mine, and I have a lot of training in that area I just couldn't unsee the correlations there.

49:05

And I did have a very pivotal moment in my own story where I just like I was like oh my gosh, like I have been trying for years to like meet this like goal post, and it keeps getting pushed back further and further, no matter what I do. And it was, like I call it, my Taylor Swift moment, where I was like we are just never, ever getting back together. Like this is not happening because this is an abuse of God. Like this is not. Like I've done this with a partner and I have and I have broken it off, and like I'm doing this with that God as well. Like we are never, ever getting back together because that that's abusive.

49:47

Like I don't allow people in my life to treat me like that anymore. I cannot allow a higher power to treat me like that either, me like that anymore. I cannot allow a higher power to treat me like that either. And so it's led me to this place of uncertainty and I'm okay with that. I like that and I prefer that now because I think that to me feels like the opposite of fundamentalism. Like in fundamentalism it's so like we just grab on for dear life and it's unrelenting and rigid and like black and white and nothing can like shake us. But in that it's like there just isn't life. I mean it's just like it is, it's so certain, but there's. I mean it's right and wrong, but you cannot waver in that at all.

50:40

And I don't feel like there's room for humanity and and and goodness and just people at all in that I. I'm done with that. And so I like the space of uncertainty and that, if that means like spirituality or I have no idea what it means like I categorize myself as a human and I feel very okay with that. I think that means things could change tomorrow. I just feel like it gives me a lot of room for growth and I like that. I don't like to be put in a box anymore and or labeled anymore. I'm just like this is, I'm just a human and and that gives me so much room to grow and to show up. You know, like we talked about the evangelism thing and like I've always prioritized relationships. That's just who I am, and so it feels like to not have a label just allows me to show up and to be kind, with no ulterior motive other than to just like be kind to somebody because they're a human and they deserve to be shown like shown kindness, that's it yeah.

51:51

You know, and I want to do that because that is of high value to me, and so I don't know if that answers that question, but, like to me, that's just kind of where I've gone and I think in my own trauma healing. You know, I love Peter Levine and the work that he does and one of the things he talks about is the goal quote unquote of healing trauma is to return to your own sense of inherent goodness.

52:18 - Sam (Host)

And.

52:19 - Dr Laura (Guest)

I love that and it makes me emotional every time I say it because it's so opposite of what I was taught in high control religion, where we were taught so often of our inherent unworthiness and our inherent sinfulness and our inherent evilness and never taught about our inherent goodness, and it took me a long time to believe that I was good and to believe that I was worthy or deserving even of the air that I breathe and um, and so I feel like that shift for me came through a lot of like learning, self-compassion and mindfulness and acceptance and things like that.

53:01

And when I've learned that now I've been able to give that back to other people and extend that and that feels like a spiritual practice. But it also just feels like who I am and just how I live my life.

53:18 - Sam (Host)

ah, what, um, you know, april: 2024

54:30 - Dr Laura (Guest)

I think I like generally like my life, like for the most most part, I really really do Um, I've worked really hard to develop good relationships with people that I love very much, um, which is no small thing to me.

54:50

even know what year we're in: 2024

56:02

Um, so, yeah, but also like simple things bring me a lot of joy, like I love just being outside with my dog, um, with like in nature, not like yeah, just like with like nature sounds like just outside, not like planes not like drilling construction yeah, and I think that also gives me a sense of peace, Like I noticed myself just taking very like, just like breathing deeper and being able to feel very, very settled.

56:43

I notice a lot of just I don't. I think it's like satisfaction, feel it's just like. Ah, I just like really like where I'm at. Yeah, but, also feeling a sense of joy about like whatever is next to like. I'm not like like trying to rush to whatever's next, but there's a sense of like excitement and like anticipation for whatever's next as well.

57:13 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, as opposed to fear. I mean, mean, that's what? Yeah, that's what it usually is, yeah, yeah, so, um, I just I don't know what made me think of it, but I, uh, I don't know how I've made it this whole time without, um, there is so many really wonderful descriptions out there of deconstruction. Um, except that when I read your book, I don't know how we've made it this far into the episode, without talking about the fact that you described deconstruction like a burrito bowl, which is honestly like that takes the cake for me. Who doesn't love a burrito bowl?

57:54 - Dr Laura (Guest)

Who doesn't?

57:54 - Sam (Host)

love Mexican burrito bowl exactly who doesn't love mexican food, and so I don't. I don't know how we've made it this far without not talking. How did you come up with?

58:04 - Dr Laura (Guest)

that um well, I do love mexican food um yeah, don't we all?

58:11

well, part of it is because I'm gluten-free and I can't have um. No, I used to describe it as like a house, like you know, like Deacon, like like taking a house down to its studs, and I was like, oh, that doesn't really fit. And I was like it's. It feels to me more like yeah, like a burrito bowl, like you get to pick and choose, like what you're putting into it. And I was like and I probably owe Chipotle like half my money, I've given them half my money as I'm like writing that book because, like I buy their burrito bowls all the time I was like this just seems to work, but really it is.

58:50

I mean, I feel like deconstruction is like pulling things apart and then deciding what it is that you want to put back together. You know what you want to put into it. Yeah, and it is this philosophical concept that we are constantly doing for our whole lives, and it's not just religion, it is we do it with everything. You know it's, it's. It's funny. I think that religion does a great job of like, trying to like, co-opt everything, and and so it's not surprising that, coming out of religion, we're like, oh yeah, like we came up with the term deconstruction? No, children, we did not. That is, derry Daw came up with a, you know, philosophical concept of deconstruction many, many, many years ago.

59:42

But we can use it for our purposes sorry, I don't mean children in like a patronizing way, yeah, no, I'm saying it in a funny way, um, but it's this idea of like pulling things apart and we should be doing it for our whole life, because it all that means is that we're continuing to grow and we're then creating, and we're going, we're asking questions, we're untangling, we're creating like new burrito bowls to eat out of, essentially, and I love that because it just it means like when we keep doing that, that is the opposite of fundamentalism and that's what we should be. I believe that's what we should be striving for. We don't want to get stuck at any point and say, there, I figured it out. Then we are running the risk of getting stuck like we used to. So I believe this is a lifelong process.

:: 00:41

And it doesn't mean that we always have to be like in the thick of it, Like sometimes, you know, we are, you know, I think about those first couple of years and we're coming out of high control. Religion is like we are thinking about this all the time. But you know, as we're further out, it's like, oh, I need to kind of untangle this thing, you know, and. But it doesn't take up so much time and space and energy, it feels maybe a little bit lighter, Um, but yeah, that's just something we do all the time. You know, we're kind of constantly deconstructing things and that just means that we're growing and evolving as human beings and I love that we get to do that the rest of our lives.

:: 01:21

Yeah, absolutely. David Haywood, the naked pastor, says deconstructing is a way of life and I love that. I so agree yeah absolutely, and also there's way too many house analogies, so we absolutely need something different.

:: 01:40

Yeah, and burritos are just better.

:: 01:42

Yeah, absolutely Everything's better with food. Yeah, moral of the story is everything's better with food, perfect, okay, and that's probably a really nice lead into where I end these episodes, which is what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction fresh in your deconstruction.

:: 02:06

I would say you are very brave and it will not always be this hard. Keep going, yeah. Yeah, it takes a very, very brave person to do this. It is not the weak person who goes down this path.

:: 02:26

Yeah, absolutely, I love that. Thank you so much for joining me.

:: 02:32

Oh, it's been so fun. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for joining me. Oh, it's been so fun. Thank you for having me.

:: 02:39

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I, who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.