The One Who Went From Martyrdom To Choosing Herself

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, steph. Thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me, me. I'm so excited because I love when it's someone's first podcast on my show. It makes me feel so special, um, so I'm so excited and I hope that it is a lovely experience for you to then jump on people's podcasts.

02:01 - Stephanie (Guest)

I know I hope so first of many yes, they're so fun.

02:06 - Sam (Host)

I think it's a little bit like I can see that you have tattoos, so I know that you'll understand this analogy, which is, um, that once you get your first tattoo, you're like, oh, I need so many more of these. Um, they're like very, uh, addicting in terms of like, you just love them, and I feel like podcasts are the same. It's fun, um so, I hope um, okay, before we get into it, um, I would love you to tell everybody where in the world are you currently?

02:38 - Stephanie (Guest)

sure? So I am in Southern California. I am about 30, 40 minutes outside of Los Angeles.

02:45 - Sam (Host)

Okay, lovely, Well, I would say lovely, but every American I talk to at the moment I give commiserations.

02:52 - Stephanie (Guest)

Thank you, yeah, been tough out here.

02:56 - Sam (Host)

Yes, yes, I can imagine. I mean, I'm watching it from afar and sadly seeing it seep into our politics already and it's like we're only in the first day. Well, I'm in the first day of February, so yeah, it is just. I keep saying the last two weeks, what a world we live in currently, so what a time to be alive.

03:22 - Stephanie (Guest)

Oh boy.

03:23 - Sam (Host)

Okay, so I love to start these episodes with a super broad, super vague basically you get to decide wherever we go with it type of question, which is where does your story start?

03:37 - Stephanie (Guest)

oh, that's a great question. Um, my story starts at birth. Um, truly, my parents were missionaries and so my dad is American and my mom is British and they actually met in Spain. So they were living and working in Spain as missionaries and I was born there and we did move back to California when I was just about two, so I was kind of like thrust into the religious world from birth, and so it's a funny question to ask like when does your story start? Day one, um, and just kind of progressed from there. So I mean, I'm happy to answer any questions about it, but that is really where it started, and I didn't grow up on the mission field but definitely grew up in like a missionary mindset, kind of energy for for most of my upbringing, which was a very interesting way to grow up?

04:42 - Sam (Host)

yeah, I think most people will, who have probably listened to my episodes. I've had a few missionary kids on the podcast who probably understand a little bit about what it is like to grow up as a missionary kid. But I'm curious because you didn't grow up on the missionary field how that then translated more into, like you said, a missionary mindset. What did that look like?

05:07 - Stephanie (Guest)

Totally yeah. It's so interesting because I almost don't even resonate with the phrase missionary kid. I remember being in college and being invited to like the missionary kid group hangs and feeling a little bit out of place because everyone else grew up on the field. I was like I'm just from California.

05:25

Um, so when I say like missionary mindset, I remember my parents like often saying if you have the chance to go somewhere else, do it. Like if you yeah, if you have the chance to leave here, go explore, be independent, be a part of the world, and there's a lot of good things about that. And I it also made me feel like a little bit rootless sometimes, like not kind of sure where to land or call home. The church that I was involved in growing up was also like pretty mission oriented, and so I remember being like way too young and thinking it was my life goal to like live overseas, go to some sort of unreached people group and like die a martyr, like that was the dream for me, and so it just has been kind of in my space for a long time. Um, yeah, that's what I mean by that kind of missionary mindset yeah, the martyrdom complex, it's's just a wild thing to me.

06:26 - Sam (Host)

I remember my former church was big on like staying up to date with like the voice of the martyrs and things like that. And it was just like this undercurrent of like if you had a gun to your head, like would you say that you're a Christian? Like it was this weird, like fucked up notion that if you weren't willing to die for your faith, then what sort of Christian were you, right? And so I'm curious because like I was a teenager at that point hearing that message. But what was it like for you hearing that message as a child?

07:04 - Stephanie (Guest)

I feel like it didn't.

07:06

That like if there was a gun to your head kind of energy came in more like adolescent Okay, as a child I mean you have child understanding of those things, right.

07:17

Like more as a child I remember being very scared of like going to hell or like the rapture happening. Those were like the anxieties that I had as a kid as far as in the religious realm went, but it was more so like when I think about missions as a kid I didn't really know that much like other than it was important and we should do it and that everybody should know about Jesus, right, like it was kind of your job to go tell everybody you know, because otherwise they'd go to hell and that's scary. And so as a child that was kind of what I was taught in the church, not even necessarily by my parents, but like in the church that we were in. Yeah, and then as I grew older, then it was more like you're gonna be persecuted and like have to attest to these things and are you gonna stand in your faith and be strong in the face of adversity. So it just felt like everything had like a very battle energy to it which was intense.

08:22 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, you're always at war, like with someone or something.

08:26 - Stephanie (Guest)

There's always a fight right, even like battles you cannot see, like in the spiritual realm too. Yes, it's just so intense all the time yeah, okay.

08:39 - Sam (Host)

So what flavor of christianity were you raised? Sure that's a great.

08:45 - Stephanie (Guest)

What flavor?

08:45

yeah, because there's so many flavors of ice cream, just like there's so many flavors of christianity the church denomination I was primarily raised in, that I grew up in, was the assemblies of god church, which is pretty like pentecostal lots of things that people think are really wacky, like speaking in tongues, praying for healing and the assemblies would attend to be like really mission oriented. Um. So I went to an assemblies of God church for the majority of my upbringing. I went to an assemblies of God college and undergrad like I was I kind of joke that like I wasn't just drinking the kool-aid, I was like swimming in in the tub and so I was really, really in it for a long time yeah, absolutely.

09:34 - Sam (Host)

I probably, like myself, would even go a step further and say I was probably making it for other people as well yes, I was trying to force it down there, like it's good, yeah, totally, I mean what was it like for you as a child and as a teenager growing up in a church that is that type of church, because I mean she's pretty out there, like the AOG church, like for those who are in Australia, like you know, think C3, hillsong, planet Shakers I mean they're probably other than Hillsong, they're probably not necessarily names that you know, but people in Australia will know those as sort of like the big three here, where it's an intense style of church.

10:24

I remember the first time I walked into what, like we would call a c3 church which is probably similar, I would imagine, um and I was in a very conservative, um, almost calvinistic style church and I was like someone started speaking in tongues and I was like the fuck, is this what is happening?

10:47

it's happening this is insane. Get me out of here, like from my little like don't raise your hands in worship, like it's not about you, church. And then, all of a sudden, everything is like performative, so showy, what is this? Um, so, as a kid and as a teenager, what was that like for you to grow up in? What did you think about it?

11:11 - Stephanie (Guest)

I didn't know any different. Yeah, like it was normal. Yeah, and I think the first time that I remember being like, oh, not everyone is like this is when I went to college, which was and it's also an assembly college, and so I. But there were people there that didn't grow up assemblies God and one of my close friends was raised Baptist, and so when we're having our like chapel services and everyone's like hands raised, wailing, you know, and she's like what, she's like what the fuck's going on, and so it was. That was really the first time that I was like oh, not everybody, like does this? It was just so normalized like. I remember being told like go pray in tongues, like, oh, I can't sleep. It's like, oh well, just go to your room and pray in tongues and see like how it'll help, like things like that, and just not being like service every Sunday, like there'd be worship, and then some guy in the corner yelling gibberish and then like someone else, being like it means this, and everyone's like got it, got it Of course it does.

12:15

Like it just was so normal, I didn't know any difference.

12:20 - Sam (Host)

Was it the type of church where you were only like a true believer, true Christian, if you spoke in tongues? Or was that just was speaking in tongues seen as a spiritual gift?

12:34 - Stephanie (Guest)

I think it was more seen as a spiritual gift. What my brain is telling me? I haven't dug that deep in a while. What my brain is recalling is, like it's accessible to everyone, but I don't remember people necessarily being ostracized. If you didn't, okay, um so. But with that kind of comes a flavor of like, just keep praying for it, like in due time. But it wasn't necessarily shameful, at least in my experience, if you weren't doing that okay, okay, so not necessarily like you're not saved if you don't speak into it right, but also like.

13:09 - Sam (Host)

Is there like a subtle undercurrent of like is there something wrong with you that? Did you ever speak in tongues? Oh, tell me.

13:30 - Stephanie (Guest)

I love asking people who are now no longer in church about that this is so funny because I was talking about this yesterday, um, with a friend, because my husband, who is an angel, and I him, like a few months ago, I've had some wacky experiences. Right Like a few months ago, he basically, out of the blue, was like how do you reconcile some of the experiences that you've had with your like current belief system? And it broke my brain a little bit, like I was like I don't know how to answer that question and I'm not even going to try, so I still, honestly, I'm like wrestling with some of that where I'm like I don't know. I don't know, was that real? Was it something I was like so convinced in my mind was real and so it like happened? Was it not real? And I was performing and didn't know it, like it's very hard to make sense of still, because it I remember the visceral feelings of feeling like something is kind of like taking me over and there's just like kind of noises coming out.

14:35

I don't know what it means, but it didn't feel like me at the time. Right quote, unquote. So it's just where I am now. I'm like that's confusing.

14:46 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I don't really know quite yet how to make sense of it yeah, and I think from you know the people that I've spoken to in the past and you know people that I've worked with, it takes a long time to reach that point of understanding around the level of indoctrination and emotional manipulation and to really grapple with, like what actually happened in terms of those experiences. It can feel like a really slow moving journey, which I think is really important for people to hear, because that's that process is not like a one and done like you leave you make sense of it. Great, I get to move on with my life well it's far more complex and layered than that.

15:33

So I actually I mean, I don't love that you're confused by it, but I also like love that you didn't have a black and white answer for that also.

15:40 - Stephanie (Guest)

Yes, that's exactly what I was going to say, but the thing is is that I also am so comfortable with not knowing. Yeah, like I'm like, if I never understand this, that's fine. Like I know I have this funky experience and if it never makes rational sense, now whatever. Like I'm okay living in uncertainty in a way that I never was before yes, absolutely.

16:01 - Sam (Host)

I, anybody who has spent like any, all in devotional time in a fundamental, high control space, like certainty is just everything that you grab hold of. So it is yeah, I remember also like the space of getting comfortable with the phrase I don't know, and for that to induce like absolute panic and fear. So I can understand that with uncertainty. So I always I love asking this question, but it does tend to throw people a little bit because, like, it throws people back to like when other christians would ask you. But, um, I'm curious, particularly during, like I guess, your teenage years and youth and young adulthood, um being raised in this, was it a faith of yours or was it a faith in your families? In terms of like?

17:07

what was your personal relationship with god like at the time? That is such a throwback question I know is like basically, like I remember like anytime someone would like reach out to you for coffee and you would like, you just like your stomach would drop because you knew that that was an accountability chat to work out how's your relationship with God going um, but I love asking it, which is like what was your?

17:36 - Stephanie (Guest)

relationship with God, like at that time, yeah, yeah, totally, oh my gosh. I remember being in youth group Like my. I was just so involved, like my grandma was not religious, which was really interesting, and I used to like go to church, like honestly, three to five times a week for various things, and she would joke like that place needs to pay you. You're there all the time and I was like a teenager but I was like, no, I love it so much, um. But I remember going to college again, christian college, and so much of well, first of all. So much of that is like meet all these strangers and tell them about your biggest traumas and label it as share your testimony, um, so that's a very interesting side note, but I remember saying that story so many times of like, well, yeah, I grew up in the church and then when I was like a teenager, I started to really like leave the faith of my parents and make it my own and also like just this jargon, what is coming up for me when you're asking that question?

18:46

yeah, but yeah, I remember getting. Well, what happened actually was my family left the church that I was growing up in, that assembly, the broad church, and went to another church. Um, because there were I've now learned some like pretty culty practice is happening. I'm sure that I, you know, was blind to as a child, and so that pastor ended up leaving and like half the church went with. You know how it goes. And once I could drive. So I was like 15 and a half, 16 years old, like was allowed to drive with a permit or license.

19:27

I, for some reason, was like I want to go back to that church and I asked my parents. I was like can I go to youth group at this church? And they were like sure, whatever, like we'd go for it and ended up like borrowing my grandma's car and like going to youth group and it got just so involved. So that kind of was my marker of like I'm doing this on my own for myself, like I want to be at this church and this space, which is crazy.

19:52

Looking back on it, I'm like, oh friend, wow, okay, that was a choice, and I just like jumped head first into the deep end again, right of like. Okay, I'm there on Monday because I'm on the worship team, and then I'm there two hours early to do prayer before youth group because I'm a youth leader, and then I'm staying late and and I'm in small group and I'm doing Sunday school and it just was really intense. But that's kind of the marker of like when it became my own, like when I was making the choices to go and not really being dragged right, not that I was ever dragged, but it wasn't just like we're all going as a family, it was like I'm going by myself. So it was probably like 15 or 16 when that happened.

20:38 - Sam (Host)

Wow, okay, yeah, and so and I asked this question because, like, everybody had a different perception, but in terms of how you viewed God at the time, who was he to you? I can probably throw back question.

20:59 - Stephanie (Guest)

I'm looking at your face, to you at.

21:02

I don't know how to answer that, totally okay. Well, what's coming up for me is actually really interesting, because that was I'm looking at your face, I don't know how to answer that, totally Okay. Well, what's coming up for me is actually really interesting because that was also the same time in my life that I really started having some significant anxiety, like clinically diagnosed anxiety disorder, panic attacks the whole shebang was around 15. And I just remember like praying all the time, like make this go away, make this go away, this is ruining my life, and it like not going away and so I don't know that's a complicated question like who was God to me then? Because I was taught like to always lean and rely on this, as I jokingly call it now, like invisible sky daddy, and like pray all the time and that will solve all my problems.

21:55

And then it wasn't solving my problems. So it felt really like divided internally a little bit, because it was, on one hand, I was like I know that this is what I'm supposed to be doing and this will be fine, and so there's a part of me that was like so trusting, and then there was a part of me that was like really hurting and confused as to why I felt like I was like really struggling, yeah, and it wasn't going away, so God was everything. And also like I was a little bit confused even then of like, well, if I'm doing everything right, why am I feeling this way? So, and then, of course, it felt like I'm doing something wrong. I must be doing something wrong?

22:42 - Sam (Host)

okay, so that was going to be my question, which was like did you think that, like everybody else was wrong and maybe like they're missing something, or like I, like I'm doing something wrong, there's something wrong with me, that is?

22:54 - Stephanie (Guest)

blocking God Absolutely, absolutely, all me. Something's wrong with me. I'm not believing enough, I'm not praying enough, I'm not trusting enough. So that's why I'm feeling this way.

23:08 - Sam (Host)

I imagine that did wonders for your anxiety. Totally.

23:12 - Stephanie (Guest)

Absolutely, it really solved it. You know, like when everyone was like just pray a little bit or like have faith, god does not give us an anxious spirit and I'm like, really, because I'm feeling it, and if you're saying that it shouldn't be that way, then now I'm feeling shame about feeling anxious, right?

23:31 - Sam (Host)

yeah, absolutely awesome, absolutely, that was awesome. Don't you love being able to laugh about that post?

23:40 - Stephanie (Guest)

And then I went to therapy and I got medication and turns out that really helped Exactly.

23:45 - Sam (Host)

Yay, science, right, right, oh, my gosh. Okay, so you went to a Christian college college, um, oh, and I mean I guess, like I always ask people um what impact as a teenager, as in a young and like into early 20s, um what impact did purity culture have on you?

24:08 - Stephanie (Guest)

because that's a fun little beast totally, totally, yeah, significant, yeah, I mean, it's just so funny. I feel like this is a common experience, which is a little bit sad, but just these like kind of quote-unquote sins that felt so much weightier than other sins, and sex and sexuality being one that was just so hammered home for everything, like from puberty on it was like don't have sex only in this context and it has to be marriage, man and woman, and that is the only thing that god approves of, otherwise you're a sinner and you're bad. So I just remember, like all of the sermons about like you're a dollar bill, but look, now you're all crumpled up and like you still have the same worth as a dollar but who's gonna want this like crumpled up dollar?

25:09

when you can have like a not crumpled dollar and so like you still have that. It's weird, right, because it's like you still, you can still use this dollar, but people are going to be like I prefer the other one. Yeah, so a lot of like oh my gosh, my church is like we don't date, we court, like we're courting each other, we don't, we don't go on dates. A lot of jargon around like oh, yeah, yeah, I had a purity ring, absolutely True love weights and a lot of like I'm not even going to kiss anyone until my wedding day.

25:43

Like these, like the golden standards, were really present in my youth group and beyond. So it was quite intense. And I remember I remember my mom recently asking me like about my therapeutic specialization and religious trauma and kind of being like what happened? Did something happen? And I knew what she was trying to ask and I was like I mean, thankfully not in a way that I think you're asking me and yes, everything happened. And I said I said mom, and the example I gave her was mom, why do you think that at summer camp as a child, all the boys could be shirtless and all the girls had to wear dark t-shirts over their bathing suits like from age seven on. You know, like that's kind of like automatically sexualizing girls and people who are being raised as little women, and so it just was always present. Yeah, always absolutely.

26:45 - Sam (Host)

I, um, I would probably even, like, from my experience, would take it a step further in that, um, like, if you was a female identifying person, um had the right in quote, I'm quoting here the right type of body, then you could wear shorts and you could wear a singlet. But if you had the wrong type of body, then you couldn't because, like, one was aesthetically pleasing and the other wasn't, and so, like it's this really gross notion of like linking sexuality, purity, culture and, um, body image stuff, right, all in one, and it's like, yeah, like we'll, we'll allow you to wear a singlet as long as, like, you don't flaunt it and as long as you have the right type of body, and it's just, it's really like warped notion around what is right and what is wrong, and I mean that's the greatest irony that the church is so, um, anti-sex, but men, they talk about it a lot.

27:54

Like they don't talk about it like you're saying so much, just like shut up about it, like stop talking about it, um, and the whole notion that, like you said, there is like no hierarchy of sin, but there's absolutely a hierarchy of sin, and like gayness and premarital sex are pretty much the top of the list, like it's just worst of the worst. So absolutely, um. When did your perception of those things start to broaden, and was it still like that? I?

28:33 - Stephanie (Guest)

what's so strange about my experience is I felt for a long time, even in high school, that I was living a little bit of like a double life. I'm really grateful my parents put us in public school. Like I have public school education K through 12. And none of my friends at school were religious. None of them like they were like quote unquote bad kids a lot of the time, right, like they're smoking weed and cussing and like they. But they always knew, like don't invite stuff to the parties she won't come like.

29:12

So it wasn't. There was like a weird mutual respect I kind of had with my friends where I loved them and they loved me and they knew that I was going to youth group on Tuesday and they are going to a house party, right. So I think that that experience allowed me to like step out a little bit easier just to have more people in my life that I knew that were good people at their core, that were not a part of this like inner group that I was in, yeah and so, oh my gosh, what was your original question?

29:45 - Sam (Host)

I don't remember it once it comes out of my mouth. Um, that's okay. Um, I have another question anyway, which is which is because I know I remember what it was like to have friends who were non-christians as a teenager. And so was it, um Steph, trying to convert them and like, save them and bring them to Jesus, and if you weren't, was their guilt for not doing it?

30:13 - Stephanie (Guest)

yes, and yes, okay, um it. I wasn't like too hardcore about it. I definitely had like a few friends. I would be like, just come like it's super fun. And I had friends that would joke back and be like, well, if I set foot in there, god's gonna strike me with lightning. You know things like that and I'm like no he won't, I promise like just come see.

30:36

And so then it became more like I kind of tried to finagle it. I was like I want you to meet my friends here and like kind of bridge the gap, I'll just come meet my friends, like they're cool too, and so it was kind of like that, but I wasn't too pushy about it. I definitely got like I wouldn't say made fun of feels a little bit strong, but definitely like poked at for being like very religious, being like oh no, like we need to sacrifice a virgin to the gods, stuff, like you know, things like that like just ridiculous stuff. And so it was always me being, you know, like the very pure, like oh, cover her ears, she can't hear that kind of thing. And I was like you guys, I literally go to school with you. What are you talking about? So that was kind of the dynamic.

31:23

I was never I tried not to be too pushy, but I also would attend. Like here we have a thing in school called like see what the pole, and it's like a day. Have you heard of that? Yeah, it's like a day where you go before school and all the Christians gather around the flagpole because we love a Christian nationalism moment and like hold hands and pray for the school, and so I was like doing that. But then I was like with my friends who were like hanging out smoking weed after school, I would not partake because I was gonna go to youth group.

31:55

Yeah but I didn't care that they were doing that. So there was always a very strange dichotomy happening for me and I think that that helped me. Like I said, I think your question was about like broadening my view of God. Yeah, and those sins like purity, culture, queerness. So in high school I had a lot of friends that were queer and even in college, like that really kind of shattered it a bit was, I had like a few friends at our tiny like. Our school was small Christian college in Southern California and I had a few a friend come out to me and that really like kind of shook me up because I was like there's no way that you're wrong, like you're not, you keep.

32:40 - Sam (Host)

This can't be wrong, like this is such a beautiful person and human and it doesn't make any sense to me that they should be denied like the experience of love that other people have, like so that I remember that being like wait a minute yeah, like so that I remember that being like wait a minute, yeah, I have had many people say that like when it entered into your world, your personal world, and it's not this ethereal thing out in worldly heathen society, then it it forces you to go like it's in front of my face and I can't just flip a switch and go. This person is now broken evil. You know all of those words. Um, it forces you I mean, some people choose not to, but um, it forces some people to to think differently about that because it's in front of you and it's something that you love.

33:43 - Stephanie (Guest)

Right, right, yeah, and really kind of flips the perspective on everything you've been told.

33:49 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was going to a Christian college something that you were always going to do? Because we don't have that's not a thing here in Australia, really. So, like, every time I talk to someone in the US, it's always did you go to a Christian college? Because I know it's a thing. So, like, was that something that you were always planning on doing?

34:13 - Stephanie (Guest)

No, it wasn't, I was. I have had like recent epiphanies about this. Actually, um, I, my initial plan was to go to like our local community college for a couple of years. Be smart, you know, save money and then transfer somewhere else. And I knew since high school I wanted to study psychology, like.

34:36

So I like kind of had that locked and loaded and I in my youth group these are the epiphanies that I've kind of had recently in my youth group there was a hand, a couple of us that were graduating high school at the same time and there was like a trio like me and kind of two other people and the other two people decided to go to this Christian college. And I was like a trio like me and kind of two other people and the other two people decided to go to this Christian college. And I was like a lot of previous people had also gone to this Christian college or another local Christian college there's a couple of them down here and so I at the time framed it as God is calling me to go to this school. At the time, framed it as God is calling me to go to this school and kind of like hail, married it last minute and changed my plan to go to this school instead of going to community college and I've like, in my own therapy and life, I like reckon with this part of myself.

35:39

She's like my 17 year old self. That's like super religious, super like headstrong, and her and I battle sometimes internally still right, but I, yeah, she just was like we're going to this school and that's what's going to happen period, and it did, and now I get to like live in student loans forever, but it's all good it's all good, yeah, what would I mean?

36:08 - Sam (Host)

I sort of just this is probably going to jump a few steps, but you brought up like 17 year old self because, like my 17 year old self would be mortified at who I am today, like she absolutely would think I completely failed her. Yeah, and so, like what would your 17 year old self think about?

36:28 - Stephanie (Guest)

like present day staff, the same like horrified and I think that I, honestly, the only way I access like some compassion for that part of myself is I think that she would be really scared like of how I was, of how I'm like living right now, and so that's, that's the part of my like current self that I try to offer some like soothing and compassion towards that like younger part of myself, because she was just so stuck in these rigid systems that had so many rules and I don't live by any of those rules, and so I think that she's pissed like.

37:11

First of all, there was like a big process of like how could you kind of energy of like how could you walk away from this thing that will our whole life and do something different? Like that doesn't make any sense. And also it's like I think it was like a 17 year old brain, you know like that doesn't make sense. All this stuff makes sense that you've been living in, and so how are you going to just up and leave everything you, you know, and like the truth and knowledge that this side of it is so much more vibrant and full and hopeful and joyful than that ever was is the hard part to reconcile with that 17 year old piece of me, yeah absolutely.

37:53 - Sam (Host)

when did that narrow view start to widen, like Like you talk about, like walking away and and leaving that space? What, what was that initial thread that started unraveling everything?

38:07 - Stephanie (Guest)

That's exactly how I always phrase it. I think I heard it in another podcast by I think it was like Laura Anderson.

38:14

Oh yeah, um, so she was talking about the idea of, like, wearing a sweater and having a string and you pull the string a little bit and you cut it, and then it shows up again and you pull it and you cut it, and you pull it, and you cut it until you pull the string and the whole freaking sweater unravels right, and so that is really, I think, a good way that helped me frame this deconstruction, I guess, process for myself, because it was so gradual, like it wasn't a big moment that happened, and then all of a sudden, I was like I'm out.

38:46

ecause I graduated college in: 2016

40:02

. And that was in the fall of: 2016

42:33

graduated with my master's in: 2020

43:45

Another huge thread pull for me was even watching the American church's response to COVID. I was like friends, look, if Jesus incarnate was sitting next to you, he would be like actually wear three masks, like protect your neighbors, and so just none of it was making sense to me and it was starting to create so much inner tension and that became like pretty unbearable. And then, like George Floyd's murder and everything that started to uprise with Black Lives Matter here again watching the response to that, these were like the big, like OK, I'm done, and like haven't looked back and feel really great about that now. The inner tension was real.

44:36 - Sam (Host)

For a long time, though, yeah, absolutely real for a long time though. Yeah, absolutely. It's like, ironically, to use the same analogy that we're all taught it it's like we're at war, but instead of it being a spiritual war externally, we're suddenly in that war internally. Between what? We were always taught with what we are now seeing with our eyes and hearing, and right, it's just and it doesn't match.

45:01

Yeah, absolutely it doesn't at all. Um, I'm curious and I don't know that I've ever actually asked this question, but as you were talking, it reminded me of like there were always like phases for me of like. You know, there was like you were mentally out, like I remember hearing about the concept of like predestination with those words, and I was like I fucking hate that, like that's awful, um, and even though I had been taught that notion to actually sort of like very audibly, hear it clear as day, I was like I'm not about that, um, and then there was like processes around being emotionally out and physically out and all of those different stages. But I'm curious because I feel like one of the hardest parts was at what point were you spiritually out in terms of, like I no longer believe in God? I like I mean, where are you at spiritually and what does that look like?

46:00 - Stephanie (Guest)

se, like I said, like even in: 2015

46:18

I don't really know this doesn't make a lot of sense. But I was on the outside like very much in, right, like if people looked at me they'd be like, yeah, good church girl. And then in I'm trying to think, and because I went, like I said, I went to grad school at another private Christian school. My first traineeship clinical site was at a Christian counseling center, right, like I was in, in, still, like putting myself in these environments, even though internally I was like I don't know so much.

46:52

And I think a part of that is because it was also really familiar. So it felt comfortable, like I knew kind of what to understand and expect, because I had been there my whole life. And so I I viscerally remember leaving that job and it was the first time in my entire life that I had not been affiliated with any sort of Christian organization building church ever my whole life. And I was like mid twenties, you know. So I was like Whoa, this is the first time I haven't been affiliated with some sort of religion that people can look at me and say, oh, she works here, that must mean this, she was in this school, that must mean this, yeah, and that felt like so crazy, yeah, crazy yeah, so what was it like to explore Steph as opposed to Steph the Christian?

47:51

oh so hard. Yeah, like really an identity warp, because that's so much of who I was. I definitely like threw the baby out with bath water and was just like tear it all down. Now what? And I remember my supervisor at the time, who had been in similar experiences in her life, thankfully like really gently prodded me towards spiritual direction, which was I? Even that, even her being like maybe you should consider this. I was like absolutely not, like no, and she just gave me a phone number of someone she knew and she was like there's no pressure, but like you might benefit from this. And I was like there's no pressure, but like you might benefit from this. And I was like nope, they're going to throw Christian Eve at me, they're going to try to make me go back to church. Like I just had all these preconceived notions of what that would be like.

48:49

And I finally called this person and we ended up meeting for like nine months and it was super freeing, for because I was, I was honestly at that point feeling a lot of guilt and shame still about like not being involved in church, not being a part of any group or anything like that that had the flavor of Christianity that I was in range to believe I was supposed to be a part of, and that spiritual director gave me so much permission to not do any of it. Like would say things like you know, would ask like do you feel like you need permission to not go to church? And I'm like, yeah, absolutely. And then say like can I give it to you? And like say things like you know, I actually don't think Jesus, if you want to believe in him, is even in there anymore. Like just things like that that really were so soothing to hear during that time period. Yeah, so I think that helped.

49:53 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, what was it like to explore a new sense of spirituality and belief system? And like what do I like world view? Because, like everything is so wrapped up in the the black and white rules right right yeah, realize that there are. I mean, there are more than 50 shades of gray, but I like to really yes, um, but um, you know what was it like to explore, like, what does a sense of spirituality look like for me now?

50:29 - Stephanie (Guest)

yeah. Yeah, I think I realized I didn't answer that part of your question.

50:32

Oh no, that's okay, um, it's been really freeing. Um, I've always felt very intuitive, like I've always had a strong gut sense and a good like internal kind of guidance. I don't really I still like teeter on what I attribute it to. Sometimes I go gone the universe, I don't know. I I still like really land on like the world is so I mean crazy and sad and scary and beautiful. That like something's doing something and just even still giving myself permission to explore.

51:13

Like what is that? Like do I like crystals? Like do I think that if God is real, god could have been creative enough to give us other things that have like spiritual significance and like what's the word I'm looking for? Like product, like spiritual properties? Um, do I think that there's like some sort of divinity that is looking out for me? Do I like it's just been a lot of question and answer a lot of trial and error like just find what feels good?

51:50

And right now I think what feels good is like, yeah, trusting that there's some sort of like benevolent guidance or kind of someone having my back and and that like myself, like I can trust myself to, like the intuition I have is good, it's not bad, like I was taught it was, your body is bad.

52:13

Don't ever lean on your own understanding. Never do that like to actually say that's all I have, like, and it's good, yeah, and operate from there. I literally remember when my husband was like I think I want to get some tarot cards and my whole system like I was not in church for years at this point, but my whole system was like that's not allowed, like, yeah, inviting demons into our home, like, and so just even things like that that still spark and have been. I feel like I've given myself permission to be brave enough to try right and like. Lo and behold, there's tarot cards in our home and there's no demons here, like people might think that they're so very angry, but I'm fine, like I'm, there's no harm, that's come to me because of this.

53:05 - Sam (Host)

So letting myself explore it and be brave enough to like, try, I think has been the biggest component of spirituality for me recently yeah, and I think also you know, there is fun in that exploration, like, yes, there is fear, but there is also fun in living the narrative and exploring and I remember thinking like who even decided that, like, god and the angels were good and Satan and demons were bad?

53:37 - Stephanie (Guest)

like who right out of that like?

53:38 - Sam (Host)

what if we've got it all wrong? Like right, they're the fun good guys and like right you know, god and the angels are like the manipulating gas lighting up totally like what is wrong? And or like if hell is real, then all my friends are going, so I'm gonna be there too like I always joke that like, at some point I realized that you know what, if hell exists, all the queer people are going to be there and it's going to be fun as fuck.

54:07

So like, that's where I'm going absolutely, but it, you know, yes, there is. There is like fear and disillusionment and anxiety and all of those difficult emotions in exploring something new that feels in complete opposition to everything you have always known, but there's always. There's also fun and freedom and humor and all of those things. Um, it just um. It's all about balance, um trying to have both um as well. Yeah, yeah, one of my favorite things post church, post christianity, is trying to reclaim language that um the church thinks that they own, um, and so I love asking people what brings you joy and peace that's a great question and I love that reclaiming of the language.

55:05 - Stephanie (Guest)

Yeah, um, creating things brings me joy and peace. Right, to make something out of nothing feels cool to me, and really grounding and centering, even if it's like a silly thing. Um, spending time with friends. I was thinking about, like, um, all the ways that I I will joke and call it church, like we'll go to like a drag show and I'll be like this is church. Like we're here, we're together in community, we're listening to music, we're tithing, we're breaking bread like worshiping queens yeah, this is church. Like, this is church. So, just doing things that allow togetherness in a way that also allows authenticity, right, like to to find spaces that I can be fully me and know that that is good, right, like, and those are like, finding those spaces brings me a lot of joy. I'm, like, you know, playing with my cats, like it's just the day-to-day, like little things. Like doing the work I do brings me a lot of joy and purpose and peace. And, yeah, just like being a human, like trying my best still to be a good human. Yeah, what brings me joy?

56:30 - Sam (Host)

yeah, now, speaking of work, because I want to ask a question before I ask my final question. Sure, which is you from? I want to hear from your perspective what it is for you to have lived experience of religious trauma and work in religious trauma and supporting other people in that space and cause. I know what it's like for me, but I love hearing what it is like for you and what that experience has been like.

57:10 - Stephanie (Guest)

I love it, I feel like very in my element when I'm sitting with other people who have experienced religious trauma. I feel devastated that it has happened in the first place, and like what feels most powerful to me is the shared language. Right, like there's something that I've heard from clients that feels really significant to them about, like the deep breath they get from saying I don't have to explain this to you, like you already know, and even if they grew up in like a different religious group, like high control group, any sort of like culty type place, or if it's like I just grew up in general evangelical Christianity and that did a number too right, like there is this kind of sense of oh, you get it. And helping people feel seen in that without having to like use a lot of words and also to validate their experience. Right, I think is so huge to be like yeah, that was significant. And and to have the intersection of knowledge of, like what's happening in your brain and body when trauma happens and to like give them language around.

58:14

That, I think is just so important and impactful. So I I mean sometimes it can be activating. So I'm like I haven't even thought about that quite yet, right, um. So it can be interesting at times and most of the time I feel just like deep joy I guess is a funny way to use but like deep connectedness, connection and togetherness when I'm with those clients who I can just be like I hear you, yeah, and point them to different places. Maybe they haven't thought of either.

58:52 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I think there is a real ease that happens when you work with someone and they know that you'd get it, you don't just yeah, you don't just understand it.

59:02

You haven't just talked about it or done a pd on it, or something like yeah, I'm like this is in my bones, yeah and and, and I think the language thing is is a really big thing, because I remember when I was looking for my own trauma therapist in that space, I was like I don't want to have to educate them, like I don't want to have to like explain like the belief system and things like that. And so I remember when I started working in this space I was like I don't ever want that to happen. You know, you never want your clients to have to educate you. And so, um, I think there is an ease that comes for people when they come in and they don't have to be like why is my therapist looking at me weird when I use the?

59:48

term speaking in tongues or like totally, you know, laying on of hands or something like that prophecy yeah, like my therapist doesn't think I'm insane and I don't have to explain things because that's exhausting and it's not an education session. So I think there is a real ease that comes when working with someone with lived experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I resonate with that. It can be activating and angry at times. Totally with that. It can be activating and angry at times, but it is, yeah, it is a real joy and a privilege to do the work. Absolutely, yeah, okay, I really love finishing these episodes with some encouragement for listeners, particularly those who are in the early stages of processing or realising or pulling on that thread or hashtag deconstruction.

:: 00:47

Um, nobody uses that word, but it is unifying and everybody has an understanding of what it means, and so I would love to ask you to offer some encouragement for those who are fresh in that space.

:: 01:09

The first thing I would say is good job, right Like it's such a scary thing to do, yeah, to pull on the thread of everything you've ever known. And so just good job at being willing to do it and, if you can, let yourself be uncertain, be uncertain for a while. Right like there's no danger in the gray. Right, you don't have to have all the answers and to let yourself play with it. Right like. I think something that really was ingrained in me is the phrase of like you can't cherry pick the Bible. Right Like you can't pick and choose what to believe, and I actually think that you can. Right Like you're allowed to keep some of it. You don't have to keep any of it. You can deconstruct and never reconstruct if you don't want to, and you can if you want to. And so it really is like this is, for the first time ever, maybe, just about you, and to be able to give yourself that gift is really brave able to give yourself that gift is really brave.

:: 02:25

Yeah, I love that. And also, um, those who are saying don't cherry pick the bible are also cherry picking the bible, so, like everybody is doing it, it's just that part getting to it and some are not yeah, yeah that part, so I love that um amazing. Thank you so much for joining me. I have loved my civilization this was such a good thank you for having me oh my gosh, really good.

:: 02:48

I think you're right about the tattoo thing. I'm like oh, actually, this is one of the few things I could talk about forever, yeah it's so fun, I'm so glad, thank you, I'm so glad, oh, thank you for joining me of course you're so welcome thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface.

:: 03:11

I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.