Episode 42

The One Who Was Lied To About God

In this compelling conversation, Dr. Jamie Marich shares her journey from a turbulent upbringing shaped by Croatian Catholicism and Pentecostal evangelicalism to a place of self-acceptance and spiritual healing. Jamie grappled with conflicting beliefs about faith, morality, and her early awareness of her queer identity, leading to deep spiritual trauma. In her memoir, You Lied to Me about God, she confronts the religious shame and guilt she endured, advocating for a spirituality that honours her authentic self. Jamie emphasises the importance of chosen family and community support in the healing process, offering listeners hope and encouragement to explore their own spiritual paths, challenge harmful narratives, and embrace a compassionate, inclusive understanding of faith.

Who Is Jamie?

Dr. Jamie+ Marich (she/they/we) began her career as a humanitarian aid worker in Bosnia-Herzegovina where they primarily taught English and music from 2000 to 2003. Jamie travels internationally, teaching on topics related to trauma, EMDR Therapy, expressive arts, mindfulness and yoga, while maintaining a private practice and online education operations in her home base of Akron, Ohio. 

Marich’s previous books include Dissociation Made Simple, EMDR Made Simple, Trauma Made Simple, Dancing Mindfulness, Process Not Perfection, Trauma and the 12 Steps in addition to other titles. 

The New York Times featured Marich’s writing and work on Dancing Mindfulness in 2017 and 2020. NALGAP awarded Jamie with their esteemed President’s Award in 2015 for her work as an LGBT+ advocate. The EMDR International Association (EMDRIA) granted Marich the 2019 Advocacy in EMDR Award for her using her public platform to advance awareness about EMDR and to reduce stigma around mental health. The Huffington Post published her personal story of being out as a clinical professional with a dissociative disorder in May 2023. 


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Transcript
Speaker A:

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people.

Speaker A:

I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

Speaker A:

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

Speaker A:

I recognise the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country.

Speaker A:

This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam:

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities and are deconstructing their faith.

Sam:

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives.

Sam:

Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Sam:

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

Sam:

This is beyond the surface.

Dr. Jamie:

Welcome, Dr.

Dr. Jamie:

Jamie, thanks for joining me.

Jamie:

Hi, Sam.

Jamie:

It is an honor and a delight to be here.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm so excited about this interview because obviously I would say that you are fairly well known.

Dr. Jamie:

I think most people are going to, in the therapy world are going to know you as the EMDR unicorn, I believe.

Dr. Jamie:

Is that right?

Dr. Jamie:

Is that the right terminology?

Jamie:

I love that phrase.

Jamie:

We do use the moniker the Unicorn System as our system name and we do identify with the unicorn archetype in a lot of ways.

Jamie:

Somebody's called us EMDR Badass before and we've use that, but we like EMDR Unicorn because I think that fits too.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah, I like EMDR Badass.

Dr. Jamie:

That's nice.

Dr. Jamie:

It Badass is much more Australian language than unicorn.

Jamie:

Great.

Jamie:

Well, we're also cool being a unicorn badass.

Dr. Jamie:

But you are not here today to talk about emdr, which is going to be potentially surprising, I guess, if people know you for that.

Dr. Jamie:

But you are here.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, this is beyond the surface, talking about religious trauma and deconstruction and all things in that world.

Dr. Jamie:

And so you're here to chat about your story and I'm grateful for your time.

Dr. Jamie:

So where does your story start?

Jamie:

Wow.

Jamie:

My story, if we're getting really technical, starts before I was even born and I think I'm a little reflective on that because, as you know, I just Did a memoir called you Lied to Me about God.

Jamie:

A memoir.

Jamie:

And I do feel that it was important, important to trace my spiritual heritage and where it even goes back to.

Jamie:

So my family's of Croatian origin, Croatian ancestry.

Jamie:

It was very important to us growing up culturally.

Jamie:

My parents were married Roman Catholic.

Jamie:

That's the traditional religion in Croatia.

Jamie:

And when I was about five, my father converted to a Pentecostal evangelical group and went in all the way.

Jamie:

It's interesting because I've since met other people from this Pentecostal evangelical group.

Jamie:

And yeah, there's, there's problems in that denomination for sure.

Jamie:

But I think because of some of who my father is, took it to just a.

Jamie:

A very hateful extreme and what that meant for me in my home.

Jamie:

My mom was still very proud to be Catholic and fierce in her Catholic roots.

Jamie:

I mean, a lot of ethnic Catholics don't believe in divorce.

Jamie:

I think that was some of her thinking, yet she was just firm in her I'm Catholic, I'm going to raise you kids Catholic.

Jamie:

And he was firm in his I need to convert you kids away from this evil of Catholicism that you were born into.

Jamie:

Because, yes, the brand of evangelical Christianity he subscribed to really believed everyone else on the earth was not saved and thus going to hell.

Jamie:

And that included a lot of other Christian groups, especially Catholics.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So I grew up.

Jamie:

I have to take a breath sometimes when I relay this fact because it's like, wow, that, that, that was big.

Jamie:

I grew up going to both churches on Sunday morning for most of my childhood.

Jamie:

I would go to 9 o'clock mass with my mom and then my dad would be on the side door with his van driving us 12, me, usually 12 minutes away to the evangelical church where he worshiped at.

Jamie:

And I would spend the rest of Sunday morning there.

Jamie:

And then as I became a teenager, I would do youth group and whatnot.

Jamie:

And it was just an ultimate mixed message situation in which to be raised.

Jamie:

Because I think when we talk about spiritual abuse and religious trauma, there's the messaging that certainly qualifies.

Jamie:

And as somebody who, when I'm really honest with myself, I knew that my attractions and my identity was queer even from around the age of 11.

Jamie:

I knew that I had a lot of feminist leanings very young.

Jamie:

And of course, all of those things were denounced in both churches, I would say with a little more hateful vigor on the evangelical side.

Jamie:

So there's the messaging in and of itself that could be spiritually abusive.

Jamie:

But the extra layer to my story was growing up in the Mixed messaging and feeling like I was being fought over because both parents thought they were right.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And I would routinely hear things like, I'm going to lose you yet.

Jamie:

I had to or was asked to mediate theological debates from when I was a very young age.

Jamie:

And just things no child should really have to be exposed to from a religious, spiritual perspective.

Jamie:

So that's.

Jamie:

That's the origin story of what set me up for the spiritual, religious trauma impact.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

I've actually, in the last couple of days, I've just finished you lied to me about God.

Dr. Jamie:

And it's wonderful.

Dr. Jamie:

So thank you.

Dr. Jamie:

And I would encourage everybody to go out and grab it and read it.

Dr. Jamie:

But hearing you talk about that experience with.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, even I was not a part of Pentecostalism, but exclusively.

Dr. Jamie:

But even we would have said, like in our church, you know, Catholics are not real Christians.

Speaker E:

Right.

Dr. Jamie:

Like, that was just a common belief that people would say.

Dr. Jamie:

And so, you know, that sort of like split dichotomy to grow up with my immediate image is just like a human tug of war match.

Jamie:

That's the image.

Jamie:

That is image.

Jamie:

And that is what I know fueled the moment I talk about in the book.

Jamie:

When I was about 16 years old and I plopped myself down on my bed and said something like, this has to be what spiritual abuse is.

Jamie:

I had no idea that.

Jamie:

That it was even a term at the time.

Jamie:

I think at some point I said, if it's not a term, I'm going to write it up.

Jamie:

And here it was a term by time I went to actually go look it up when I was in graduate school.

Jamie:

But I think that tug of war experience was the first time I really sensed into.

Jamie:

This is wrong.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

Do you remember what that tug of war felt like internally for you?

Jamie:

Well, I think that's a really good question.

Jamie:

I mean, I think whenever I'm overwhelmed with choice, with that sensation of like, you have to choose a side, you're.

Jamie:

You're being pulled in two directions.

Jamie:

Our tendency, of course, is to dissociate because the overwhelm could feel just incredibly much.

Jamie:

And I don't know, I think at the time it felt bigger and worse because there was this sense of, if I have to choose, I better make the right choice.

Jamie:

And now looking back, it's this sense of just really disgust that a kid even has to be put into that situation and discuss that any human has to be put into that situation of, you know, I know, you know, this term, like being evangelized or being made to feel like how you naturally are in the world isn't good enough until, not just, not until you find God, but until you find our version of God slash Jesus.

Jamie:

So, yeah, it's, it's horrible feeling.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

What version of God did you find.

Speaker A:

As a young person?

Jamie:

Well, it was a long and winding deconstruction reconstruction process.

Jamie:

So much so that you'll read in the book, I call it a pilgrimage in and of its own.

Jamie:

Right.

Jamie:

So the summary version is when I was a student undergraduate, I, I had pretty well concluded for myself that the evangelical Pentecostal version of God was toxic and horrible and nothing I wanted to be a part of.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So that obviously caused some waves with, with my father.

Jamie:

And then for a while I really had this aimless path with, with addiction.

Jamie:

And so we're being honest, like alcohol addiction kind of became the God for a while, but.

Jamie:

And for a lot of years I judged myself for that.

Jamie:

Yet looking back now and with the perspective of therapy, I, of course I turned to drugs and alcohol when faced with a new world that was out there, aside from the world I was raised.

Jamie:

I also came out to myself as bisexual when I was 19.

Jamie:

It was so clear to me who and what I was and how I loved.

Jamie:

But I was still overtaken by this overwhelm of if I do anything with this, I'm going to lose my family, I'm going to lose everything I've.

Jamie:

I've ever known.

Jamie:

So then I decided to explore Catholicism pretty intently for a couple years.

Jamie:

I had some friends who really encouraged me to reconsider a lot of what I'd been programmed to believe about Catholics from the evangelical side.

Jamie:

And I did find a lot of what I needed in Catholicism.

Jamie:

I mean, to this day, I still identify myself as a Catholic in identity, and a lot of that is because of my Croatian ancestry.

Jamie:

It feels important.

Jamie:

There's a lot about Catholicism that I like, a lot I don't like, especially social teaching and the male driven hierarchy that I think is out of touch with what most Catholics experience in the world.

Jamie:

Now, interestingly, I was working for a Catholic parish for a couple years and then I ended up going to probably one of the five most conservative Catholic colleges in the US for my graduate degree.

Jamie:

So I definitely was exposed to a very conservative brand of Catholicism that felt more like the evangelical side of things than anything.

Jamie:

And it's like, oh, wow, there really are a lot of common threads here.

Jamie:

And when I was in that Catholic graduate school, I, I really tapped into a lot of like, wait, this is not me.

Jamie:

For instance, the way I heard queer people be talked about and I was that kind of smart alec in the back of class, that'd be like, wait, have you ever actually met a gay person?

Jamie:

And then I went into the profession.

Jamie:

I became a professional counselor, which I think was the needed.

Jamie:

I don't ever want to say it's a final step because I think I'm always deconstructing, but it was the needed kind of grand step in helping me to see that the way the churches wanted me to see the world was not the world that was meeting me in my counseling office with people who had real troubles and real struggles.

Jamie:

And I also, and I write about this in the book, my first major counseling job out of graduate school, I had to work on Sundays because it was at addiction treatment center.

Jamie:

I had to do family therapy on Sundays.

Jamie:

And for a while I started like half heartedly going to mass on Saturday.

Jamie:

And there were options to do mass on Saturday night or even Sunday night, but I was just kind of too overwhelmingly tired to go.

Jamie:

And the less I went to church, the better I felt about myself, you know.

Jamie:

And I say that, acknowledging I still attend Catholic mass, especially for celebratory occasions.

Jamie:

I also have a brother who's a Catholic priest and I remain in support of his vocation and showing up to events for him.

Jamie:

So I'm not that kind.

Jamie:

That's like, oh, a church.

Jamie:

I could never go in a church because I.

Jamie:

My story is one where I have taken a lot of what I feel is good from that religion, especially that I was, that I was raised in.

Jamie:

I'm cur.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm curious how you did that.

Jamie:

Right.

Dr. Jamie:

Because like I, I only went to a Catholic school for three years and it did a number on me in those three years.

Dr. Jamie:

And I, you know, you go to a Catholic mass now or I go to a Catholic mass and I don't know about in the US I suspect it's similar.

Dr. Jamie:

There's a certain aroma that happens that's in a Catholic church and sounds and smells and, and so I'm curious how you manage to maintain that.

Jamie:

Yeah, I've liked the aroma and the sounds and the smells and it's a lot of what I like about yoga practice as well.

Jamie:

And that, that is also told in the memoir how I ended up studying yoga pretty intently and studying in an ashram and going to India and exploring other world religions and world traditions.

Jamie:

And I think that's a common thread that really helps me is ritual.

Jamie:

My first husband, as I write about in the book is a Jewish man and I learned a lot about Judaism in being married to him.

Jamie:

And again, ritual is something that I just found really compelling and beautiful and I think traditional.

Jamie:

It helps me to stay tapped in to the people who have come before me in this line.

Jamie:

And I think that's where it, you know, in Catholicism, it ties in a lot to my heritage.

Jamie:

When I explored it with him in Judaism, it helped me to see like the line that he comes from of people.

Jamie:

So I, I think that is, is fundamentally beautiful.

Jamie:

I.

Jamie:

In the, in the Catholic tradition, I love the saints.

Jamie:

I love the stories of the saints.

Jamie:

I love this idea that the saints can intercede for you because they were human beings who lived and walked among us as well.

Jamie:

So there's a lot of Catholic saints that mean a lot to me, like Saint Hildegarde Bingen, who I really think was the first Western expressive arts therapist and holistic healer in both churches.

Jamie:

I can even acknowledge this with the evangelical side.

Jamie:

I like the music.

Jamie:

The music always kept me anchored and I question it theologically sometimes.

Jamie:

Now I have playlists on both of my phones of music from both traditions because I think especially Pentecostal side, as a kid, when everything else was overwhelming me and pissing me off, I was still able to sing.

Jamie:

I was still able to kind of move a little bit and raise my hands.

Jamie:

And that connected me into God because I do believe God lives in music and lives in, in that.

Jamie:

So even as I say these things, I realized that a lot of these aspects might trigger someone else, that might be someone's story, and that's valid and that's something to be noticed.

Jamie:

And it's never saying you have to take the good if there wasn't any good to be taken.

Jamie:

Yet in my story, there was a lot of good to be taken.

Jamie:

I was introduced to my addiction recovery and 12 step recovery through the Catholic Church through my mentor who I met while working at, at this Catholic shrine.

Jamie:

So that's my story.

Jamie:

It's, it's, it's not everybody's story.

Jamie:

And I think as I've done therapy and as I've explored my spirituality through other paths like, like yoga and Eastern meditation, I've really come to this place of I take no issue with God.

Jamie:

I'm even, I'm even cool with Jesus in a lot of ways.

Jamie:

I don't necessarily believe everything that the Catholic or the evangelical church has taught me about Jesus.

Jamie:

Yet the person of the Christ and what Jesus represents is.

Jamie:

I'm cool with.

Jamie:

The issue is what people have Done in the name of God, in the name of Jesus.

Jamie:

The power and control dynamics, that has been what I reject and have moved away from and have really had to heal from.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I would agree.

Dr. Jamie:

I often will say I've got no issue with Jesus.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm pretty sure we probably could be mates.

Dr. Jamie:

If he was, like, here right now, I'd be quite fine.

Dr. Jamie:

But I do have a problem with often the people who claim to represent him and, and the.

Dr. Jamie:

In what they.

Dr. Jamie:

What they use to weaponize against other people in particularly marginalized communities.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm curious, that power and control dynamic that you talk about, what was your experience of being on the receiving end of that?

Jamie:

Yeah, so for me, it was probably most acutely and painfully felt in my home as opposed to being a part of a real toxic church situation.

Jamie:

Because I do believe when we look at spiritual abuse, you can see the power and control dynamic play out a couple different places in the religious institutions themselves.

Jamie:

At the level of the state, when we see extremely religious lawmakers and judges putting things out for the rest of us, that's probably.

Jamie:

We could do a whole conversation and.

Dr. Jamie:

Then that's a rabbit hole we don't want to jump down right now.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And then there's dynamics in the home.

Jamie:

So I would argue when you're a child growing up with parents who are feeding you, clothing you, et cetera, your parents are your God figure you are going to do what you need to do to stay right with them.

Jamie:

At least that's, you know, how.

Jamie:

How we were as a kid.

Jamie:

And it was just very much that if I wanted my parents love, especially my father's love, I would do what I was told from this religious perspective.

Jamie:

So I tell the story in the book about how the first time I prayed this, well, the time I prayed the salvation prayer, the Jesus prayer, I was four years old, four or five.

Jamie:

I think it was five, now that I'm doing the year math.

Jamie:

And it was very much framed like, this is your choice to do it, yet I really had no choice.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

If I wanted to, you know, keep dad happy.

Jamie:

And then I had the double task of trying to keep both of them happy spiritually under the same roof.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

Were you presented with different forms of the gospel, so to speak, from mom and dad?

Jamie:

Well, so that's a great question.

Jamie:

It's a great question because looking back at it now critically, the gospel was the gospel, the four core gospels, like it was the same message.

Jamie:

Even a few times.

Jamie:

I remember saying to myself, is it, wait, this is the same Jesus we're talking about.

Jamie:

But so, and I write about this story in the book how a point of contention is that the Catholic Bible has what, like 73 books.

Jamie:

The Protestant Bible has 60.

Jamie:

It might be 72.

Jamie:

My math is off at the moment.

Jamie:

It's morning for me.

Jamie:

Us.

Jamie:

And.

Jamie:

And the Protestant Bible, you know, only has 66.

Jamie:

And my father just very much had this thing like those.

Jamie:

The books that are in the Catholic Bible are quote, unquote, man made.

Jamie:

That's.

Jamie:

It's not.

Jamie:

You know, just heard all of it.

Jamie:

And so, yeah, a moment of real terror I had that I wrote about in the book was at my grandmother's funeral.

Jamie:

I was asked to do one of the readings.

Jamie:

And one of the readings that they gave me to do, the reading that I was given to do was from the Book of Wisdom, which is in the Catholic Bible, but not the Protestant Bible.

Jamie:

And up there at my grandmother's funeral, I was in this tizzy about, this is going to make my dad mad.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

That I'm reading a book that.

Jamie:

That isn't legitimate.

Jamie:

So, I mean, the fight was over interpretation over.

Jamie:

And, and I will say to this day that even though the Catholic Church is rife with problems, especially with abuse scandals that have been put under the carpet, especially over how women have been treated whatnot, the Catholic path is a lot kinder and gentler than the evangelical path because at least in Catholic theology there is room for.

Jamie:

There's a lot of different paths of people of faith that can get to heaven.

Jamie:

You know, Pope Francis himself has even amplified that recently that.

Jamie:

Yeah, evangel.

Jamie:

Evangelization and spreading the gospel can be important, but we're really not supposed to be terrorists about it.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And on the evangelical side, I very much got this sense of, no, we have to convert people to our way of thinking and our way of interpretation, or else they're going to be lost.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

It's the moral superiority complex.

Jamie:

Yes.

Jamie:

Correct.

Jamie:

Yeah, correct.

Dr. Jamie:

What was it like for you?

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, I.

Dr. Jamie:

I feel like, say, like growing up in a split faith home or a split church home as being socialized as a woman.

Dr. Jamie:

What was that like?

Jamie:

Well, I, from both churches, I very much got the sense of this is a woman's place to.

Jamie:

And I remember a couple times asking questions like, well, what does this mean?

Jamie:

Like, women submit to your husbands, etc.

Jamie:

Because I was also being raised, especially by my mother, who was Catholic, to be an independent, strong woman and very invested in my education.

Jamie:

And she would encourage me to, like, speak up against the boys.

Jamie:

And I remember when I was little and kids would call me bossy.

Jamie:

My mom was the first, even before Sheryl Sandberg came up with her thing to say, like she's showing leadership skills.

Jamie:

So, I mean, in a way, I think my mom did raise me with, with a lot of feminist tendencies.

Jamie:

And as a kid coming up through school, I was already identifying that here I am as, as a woman.

Jamie:

And I feel like I'm doing double the work to get half the recognition.

Jamie:

And it seems like we're the ones doing the grunt jobs.

Jamie:

And so I had a lot of blooming feminism as a kid that I just don't think ever really had a chance to learn to express itself.

Jamie:

And I remember one time though in on the evangelical and like asking my dad about it and he's like, well, yeah, you know, it's good that you do good in school and you're doing well, but ultimately it is the woman's job to submit to her husband.

Jamie:

So yeah, that, that was an issue.

Jamie:

And then as I came up on the Catholic side of things and, and started exploring Catholicism more.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Like it bothered me that women weren't ordained.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

That women could only go so far, at least in the traditional church leadership structure.

Jamie:

So now I can look back and see I was clearly raised to be a second class citizen in, in both churches.

Jamie:

And I write about this in the book how the, the line that is given by a lot of traditional religions.

Jamie:

I've heard this in, in traditional Judaism too, and some other world religions that, you know, women and men aren't supposed to be equal, that women have the privilege of bringing life into the world and we have different jobs and whatnot.

Jamie:

And honestly, if you want to believe that and that helps you, great.

Jamie:

But it just, it just feels like lip service to me.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

The whole equal bit different.

Jamie:

Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Jamie:

Gross.

Dr. Jamie:

It's just a gross notion, really.

Dr. Jamie:

What was it like to, for you to start pulling on that thread of, I don't, I don't think that these are my beliefs anymore?

Jamie:

Well, it's a wonderful question because that's hard when, when you start pulling on that thread yet.

Jamie:

I don't know, because it was such a process for me.

Jamie:

It did not happen all in one fell swoop.

Jamie:

And it's part of why I think I was able to write an interesting memoir because it happened over, over time.

Jamie:

I will say though, with every stage of saying, this isn't me, I need to reevaluate this.

Jamie:

I always feel better on the other side.

Jamie:

I always feel better on the other side.

Jamie:

And I'm grateful that I have had therapy support through all of this.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

As you were sort of like going through that and saying, you know, at each stage going, this isn't me.

Dr. Jamie:

What were the things that you were saying?

Dr. Jamie:

Were you.

Jamie:

Yeah, well, so if I think about the first stand I took, which was in university, away from the evangelical steeping, what was me was knowing that I am attracted to all genders and that sexuality isn't a bad thing.

Jamie:

Even, you know, more heteronormative sexuality isn't a bad thing.

Jamie:

Have to be so locked up and defined as one thing.

Jamie:

I also started realizing that a lot of the social.

Jamie:

The social shit that we tend to equate with conservative politics, that was emphasized in the evangelical context.

Jamie:

It's like, this is just hateful.

Jamie:

This just doesn't make sense.

Jamie:

And yeah, I know a lot of conservatives get.

Jamie:

Get worried about kids going to college and having liberal.

Jamie:

And it wasn't like professors were indoctrinating me.

Jamie:

It's that I got to meet other people from other areas of the world, other areas of life.

Jamie:

I got to hear other perspectives that just resonated more fully as this just makes more sense.

Jamie:

This feels more nourishing.

Jamie:

This feels more loving.

Jamie:

Yeah, there's that meme going around there.

Jamie:

Nothing says hate quite like Christian love.

Jamie:

And yeah, I was very much raised with that.

Jamie:

We are doing the loving thing here by essentially forcing people to convert.

Jamie:

Yet in meeting people of other faith traditions, other cultural backgrounds, when I was in university, it was the sense of, no, this just.

Jamie:

And it's more than a feeling because I know feelings can be fleeting.

Jamie:

Here and there it was, yes, a felt sense, but just my soul resonated with other perspectives that I was hearing.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And it didn't feel like I was trying to constantly prove something.

Jamie:

I could just be.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah, what was that like to start piecing together an authentic sense of self as opposed to a self that you were supposed to be.

Jamie:

I actually just told this story last night with.

Jamie:

When I was hanging out with some folks.

Jamie:

So I still have this memory.

Jamie:

It was.

Jamie:

I heard it from both the pastor in the evangelical context and my father that the concept of self esteem.

Jamie:

It's hogwash.

Jamie:

Is bullshit.

Jamie:

Is that it's an invention of modern psychology.

Jamie:

It's trying to take our attention away from Jesus.

Jamie:

And our true worth comes because of our relationship with Jesus.

Jamie:

And I.

Jamie:

I think what my journey here has taught me is, first of all, for those who are people of faith or Christians listening to this, you can have Jesus in self esteem.

Jamie:

It's not one or the other.

Speaker E:

Yeah, it is.

Jamie:

It is really not one or the other.

Jamie:

But I think it's realizing that.

Jamie:

That you deserve to take up space regardless.

Jamie:

You deserve to be here regardless that.

Jamie:

That your faith can nourish your sense of self for sure.

Jamie:

But your faith does not define your sense of self.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And I think God understands that.

Jamie:

Like the God I've met in my suffering and in my recovery and in my pain is a lot more understanding and compassionate than the God that was given to me.

Jamie:

It's one of the reasons the title of the memoir is you lied to me about God.

Jamie:

It's all the lies I was given or made to believe about God.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Because I've definitely met another God as I've.

Dr. Jamie:

Who did you meet?

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Oh, I love this question.

Jamie:

So there's a line in the book, and then I ended up writing some music that's going to be coming out around the book release time as well.

Jamie:

Wrote a song version of you Lied to me about God.

Jamie:

And there's a line in.

Jamie:

In one of the songs, at the bottle's bottom, real love found me, telling me I'm okay just as I am.

Jamie:

And it was the sense of the God I did meet.

Jamie:

I didn't have to perform for.

Jamie:

I didn't have to change myself to be worthy of, you know, his love, their love.

Jamie:

Because I use gender neutral or God uses all pronouns.

Jamie:

That's the God I've met.

Jamie:

Is it?

Jamie:

God uses all pronouns.

Jamie:

There's your answer.

Dr. Jamie:

I love that.

Jamie:

Oh, man.

Dr. Jamie:

It's funny because, like, of all of the things that in this conversation that we'll talk about, there will be so many people who will just get annoyed by that one statement of, like, God uses gender neutral or all pronouns.

Dr. Jamie:

It's.

Jamie:

It's because the God I've met, the God I've met can show up however they need to.

Jamie:

It's.

Jamie:

And I think that's.

Jamie:

That.

Jamie:

That's what angers me the most.

Jamie:

So tracking back a few weeks here, a few months when the whole thing happened at the Olympics with the rendering of Last Supper, and.

Jamie:

Which wasn't really the Last Supper, but a lot of Christians thought it was the Last Supper and just got offended and you're mocking God, you know, and all this.

Jamie:

Of course, that reaction was to be expected.

Jamie:

And I think what we felt the most at that time was the sense of, I feel sorry for you.

Jamie:

That you think God is that small.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

That God can only show up one way that looks like you.

Jamie:

Because I have seen, you know, God's spirit show up in so many different ways in so many different forms, because that's how cool God is.

Jamie:

And I.

Jamie:

I think it just.

Jamie:

It just makes me sad when I see people make them that small.

Jamie:

And a lot of what has taught me this is as I've traveled the world, as I've done my work, I.

Jamie:

I've just seen so many amazing things happen that they can't quite fully be explained and synchronicities and people connecting and the.

Jamie:

Just the.

Jamie:

The ways I've heard people even within Christian faiths talk about their relationship with God, they can be so different to.

Jamie:

Depending on how, how and what the person needs, they can take whatever form.

Jamie:

And this is actually a concept in, oh, this will really piss some Christians off if I can go to the Hindu religion here.

Jamie:

So I've.

Jamie:

I've learned a lot about Hinduism from my yoga studies.

Jamie:

And fun fact, Yoga actually predates Hinduism as a religion.

Jamie:

But a lot of, you know, yogic circles do.

Jamie:

Do draw on some of the concepts of Hinduism.

Jamie:

And as a kid in the west and it obviously, these very Christian contexts, I was taught Hinduism is bad because they, you know, they're polytheistic, they believe in sou.

Jamie:

So many different gods.

Jamie:

Fun fact, there is one divine presence in Hinduism.

Jamie:

It's just that they could show up in 330 different ways.

Jamie:

330 different ways.

Jamie:

So this idea of Hinduism as a polytheistic religion.

Jamie:

Yeah, different forms, different forms.

Jamie:

And even the different gods can show up in different forms, like Hanuman, who is the monkey in.

Jamie:

In the Hindu canon, there's a beautiful tale from the Ramayan where he can show up in a big form to destroy a city if he needs to.

Jamie:

He can show up as a really little tiny monkey to be a comfort to the person he's coming to save.

Jamie:

So, yeah, God can show up however they want.

Jamie:

God is.

Jamie:

Is so many different things to me today that I just.

Jamie:

That's the God I've met.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I think this is.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, the diversity that I have on this podcast is, I think, one of the things that I love the most because of all of the spiritual abuse that, you know, I've read about in the book and that you've shared so far.

Dr. Jamie:

There's still so much spirituality within you.

Jamie:

Oh, yeah.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And so I.

Jamie:

Let me wax on that a moment.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, I think it will surprise a lot of people.

Dr. Jamie:

I think people automatically assume spiritual abuse anti spirituality, which is not always the case.

Jamie:

I think a lot of us who are on a recovery path from Spiritual abuse, religious trauma are still very spiritual people.

Jamie:

There's a big reason for that.

Jamie:

Those of us who maybe are most inclined for spiritual connection are naturally going to feel the most wounded when we are hurt in this way, harmed in this way.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So the, the forces that I've talked about, where I experienced the harm, you have harmed the most important part of me, which is my, My.

Jamie:

My connection to God and my spiritual essence.

Jamie:

And so for me, recovery never meant abandoning that, although I want to respect that some people's paths, that might be the way they need to go.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

For me, it has just been healing and then through that healing, finding a different way.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I.

Dr. Jamie:

I think, you know, I guess for me there.

Dr. Jamie:

There was always something that drew me to.

Dr. Jamie:

To faith and to organize religion and to Christianity and to, you know, all of what was encompassing in that world.

Dr. Jamie:

And that just.

Dr. Jamie:

That suddenly doesn't just not be a part of my.

Dr. Jamie:

Who I am as a core self.

Dr. Jamie:

And so, yeah, I guess I think that that can be really encouraging for a lot of people, that if there is still that pull within them towards something greater than themselves, whatever that divine looks like, whether it be God, whether it be the universe, whether it be nature, whether it be something completely different, that it's okay that that part of you doesn't just disappear.

Dr. Jamie:

Right.

Dr. Jamie:

You know, and so I think that that's encouraging that despite people experiencing spiritual abuse, that they can still experience authentic and healthy and nourishing spirituality.

Jamie:

Well expressed.

Jamie:

No issue with that.

Jamie:

Summary.

Dr. Jamie:

Oh, I'm curious what it was like for you to write the book and to think back on what it was like for little Jamie.

Jamie:

So writing the book was both the hardest and the easiest thing I ever had to do.

Jamie:

What made it incredibly easy was that, like, this was just prime to flow out of us.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Because we've been carrying these stories for so long, we've done a lot of therapy, a lot of expressive practice, a lot of other types of healing on them that it just.

Jamie:

It just flew out of us.

Jamie:

I think what made it hard is knowing that we'll piss some people off with this book, including people in my family, including.

Jamie:

I mean, I could really kind of care less about the church establishment and society.

Jamie:

And yeah, I did have some difficult conversations with some folks prior to writing the book.

Jamie:

I also knew some people just would not really be open to a conversation, and I had to decide to take the risk and speak up anyway.

Jamie:

So that's, that's difficult because I think a lot of us, especially who grow up in this can still play, you know, to asking about little Jamie.

Jamie:

Have that little.

Jamie:

But I, but I want people to like me.

Jamie:

I don't want to hurt people.

Jamie:

And I think whenever you set a boundary, whenever you speak up.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

There's always gonna, it's always going to come with a degree of risk and there, there may be the risk that it, it hurts someone else.

Jamie:

But I think too long I've been in this, in this codependent trap of like you.

Jamie:

Ha.

Jamie:

You have to minimize that at all costs.

Jamie:

And, you know, good Christian girls don't cause waves, they don't cause hurt, et cetera, et cetera.

Jamie:

As I share in the book, especially because I'm an American living in a country where I've just seen in a way I never.

Jamie:

I knew it was possible because I grew up with a lot of Christian nationalist thinking in the evangelical context that I grew up.

Jamie:

But to, you know, see a figure and a movement now that is so obnoxiously amplifying everything I grew up in.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Has been very hard.

Jamie:

And I think I say this in the preface that the stakes are too high right now not to speak up because I'm sad for my country in a way I never have been.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I think I speak for a lot of Australians, particularly the circles that I run in.

Dr. Jamie:

Our heart is breaking for you as well, to be honest.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

Thank you.

Dr. Jamie:

It's hard.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, we are watching from the outside, but it's hard to watch and I can't imagine how difficult it is, particularly for bipoc women and queer people in, in the US right now.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Thank you for, thank you for seeing us.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

What is it like as a, you know, being an authentic queer individual now?

Jamie:

I love that question.

Jamie:

In our life, there's been such power that has come from being authentic.

Jamie:

And it's come in degrees, it's come in waves.

Jamie:

Some of it is as, as we've progressed in life, it has felt safer to be more authentic in certain circles.

Jamie:

I have certainly tried to practice authenticity in my family, in my career, because that.

Jamie:

It's a little secret that a lot of maybe people in the general public don't realize how the clinical counseling professions and the clinical therapy professions, it could be a pretty bottled up place where even though we, we try to promote things like vulnerability and authenticity with our, as professionals, we can often experience this peer pressure to not do those things.

Jamie:

So being authentic, the more I allow myself to be authentically me, the better we feel, the better I feel.

Jamie:

And maybe it means so much to be now, because it was so off limits in the container that I grew up in.

Jamie:

In the religious container that I grew up in.

Jamie:

Yeah, I think in the.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

the story in this book how in:

Jamie:

In degrees.

Jamie:

Like, I came out to myself first, then I came out to people who were close to me.

Jamie:

life, it didn't happen until:

Jamie:

And to be able to really do it at a public level, I knew I had to come out to my family as well, because they would be reading things on Facebook.

Jamie:

And, yeah, that was fun.

Jamie:

Yet I was.

Jamie:

lot of things in that year of:

Jamie:

But one of them was Dr.

Jamie:

Robert Ackerman, who is a person who's written a lot on family dynamics of addiction.

Jamie:

quite extensively even up to:

Jamie:

So I went a day early to be able to hear him speak.

Jamie:

And it just hit us like a bullet to the heart in a good way.

Jamie:

When he said, you can't hope to be the most healthy version of yourself if you're hiding parts of yourself.

Jamie:

Paraphrasing here, I tell the story a little more clearly in the book.

Jamie:

It was like he was speaking right to us, because at that point, we were wavering quite a bit between, do we come on as bisexual?

Jamie:

Do we not?

Jamie:

And ultimately we did.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And everything changed, ultimately for the better, even though it was a bit of an upheaval when it happened, I think.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, as you sort of talk, I hear, like it's a level of vulnerability.

Dr. Jamie:

And one of the antidotes that I talk about, particularly when I'm working with queer people who are in the process of coming out on that whole spectrum, because it is a spectrum.

Dr. Jamie:

One of the antidotes to shame is vulnerability.

Dr. Jamie:

And so it's.

Dr. Jamie:

And, you know, there's a section in the book that it was.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm trying to remember the context, but I think you were talking about a particular person who was important to you who had died by suicide.

Dr. Jamie:

And you are talking about how, like, the shame that is felt.

Dr. Jamie:

But there's a particular part where you say, if hell exists, we're living in it, right?

Dr. Jamie:

Like, we're living.

Dr. Jamie:

Existing with people who are telling us that the core of who we are is.

Dr. Jamie:

Is like a horror and is awful and is broken and.

Dr. Jamie:

And I was like, oh, that's really fucking good.

Dr. Jamie:

Like, that's because it is like, you know, that if there, if there is a hell, we're in it.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I was like, that's a really powerful statement.

Jamie:

Thank you.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

What was it like to like, I mean, to live that as well?

Dr. Jamie:

Because I think you can only write that kind of a statement if you've lived it.

Dr. Jamie:

That's kind of what I'm getting at.100.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So many layers to that, to how I can answer that question.

Jamie:

I think in the podcast format.

Jamie:

I will summarize it by mentioning another moment that I do write about in the book, which is as a small child, even at the age of nine, I wanted out.

Jamie:

It's when I started to have some cognizance really of what suicide meant.

Jamie:

And, you know, I would think about ways to do it and I would.

Jamie:

It's when I started really exploring self injury in certain ways.

Jamie:

Yet as especially a Pentecostal evangelical kid, it's like, but wait, if you commit suicide, because that was the language used, then you're going to hell.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So let me pray for the Rapture instead.

Jamie:

The rapture of the church is the theological construct, meaning Jesus will come back literally at any time.

Jamie:

And I think that was maybe the benefit of having an end timesy conspiracy type father who's like, the end.

Jamie:

Like, Jesus will come back any day now.

Jamie:

This was:

Jamie:

And it's like, all right, well, I would wake up in the morning and pray that the Rapture would happen before the school day was done.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So that, that's a way of wanting out.

Speaker E:

Yeah, yeah.

Jamie:

Safe for an evangelical kid.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah, yeah, safe.

Dr. Jamie:

But I mean that it's heartbreaking.

Dr. Jamie:

Like we hear people talk about the Rapture is like, it's a, it's such a fear based doctrine to be able to spin that so that it almost like to use the Rapture as like a.

Dr. Jamie:

I am like, I want this to happen is a really heartbreaking reality.

Jamie:

Yes.

Jamie:

It felt positive, solid, good to tell that story.

Jamie:

I hope by telling some of these stories it validates at least one other person's experience.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And I hope paints a picture for just how messed up a lot of raising kids in this can really be.

Speaker E:

Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

I mean, I think it's the sole reason why I started this podcast was that saying to be seen as to be understood and to like be able to hear other people's stories and to see parts of yourself in other people to so that you don't feel so alone that you're not the only person going through this.

Dr. Jamie:

I think it's the only reason why.

Dr. Jamie:

Well, it's one of the main reasons why we do keep telling our stories in these spaces where there is deep pain and, and wounding is so that it might just help even one other person.

Dr. Jamie:

Right.

Jamie:

Correct.

Jamie:

Yeah.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

I'm curious and I always like, am a bit cautious when I ask this question because it is obviously fresh, but what is it like with your relationships with your family?

Jamie:

Releasing this book with my immediate family, we have not really had a substantial conversation about it.

Jamie:

There's an awareness that it's happening.

Jamie:

I don't know if they want to issue a statement or share their feelings.

Jamie:

They can.

Jamie:

I am, no, I'm basically no contact with my father at this point.

Jamie:

I mean I have, I have civil conversations with him at family gatherings.

Jamie:

My mom and brother.

Jamie:

I think through my adult life I've been able to maintain a relationship with them as long as we don't talk about certain things.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So I will say I have been very moved by the support I've gotten from my extended family.

Jamie:

So much so that the dedication on the book is to my cousins.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And I get, I get all kind of warm fuzzies even when I think about them.

Jamie:

Even before I wrote the book.

Jamie:

Just the amount of.

Jamie:

It's more than validation.

Jamie:

It's.

Jamie:

It's like validation plus connection that I felt as I started to talk to my cousins as adults.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Lies.

Jamie:

Wow.

Jamie:

You felt a lot of these things too.

Jamie:

And these are all cousins who grew up just on the Catholic side of stuff because none of my, my cousins converted to the even.

Jamie:

I mean it was really.

Jamie:

My dad was the solo flyer with the evangelical world.

Jamie:

I, I've just had some beautiful conversations and connections with my cousins about the content.

Jamie:

My one cousin, James Prosenjak, he.

Jamie:

He read the book as I was writing it.

Jamie:

He was willing to kind of read chapter to chapter and he gave me a lot of real time feedback and reactions and thoughts about things.

Jamie:

So I want to especially shout him out and just thank them for seeing me.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I think one of the big things that I think comes through the book is the concept of chosen family being just as nourishing and as it sometimes more important for us and more defining for us as humans than blood.

Jamie:

I think if you're queer, if you're trans, you know this, that chosen family is a lifeline.

Jamie:

It's essential.

Jamie:

But I do think it goes back to the concept and I tell the story in the book of It Takes a Village Yeah, and that was a concept that I remember an evangelical preacher really pounced on in a negative way when Hillary Clinton started using it.

Jamie:

And yeah, it does take a village.

Jamie:

I think in some contexts that is meant to mean extended family.

Jamie:

Yet there's a concept in anthropology called the aloe mothers, and I referenced that in the book, that the women in the community who also do a lot of the mothering role.

Jamie:

And I write quite fondly about several of my allo mothers who have been there for me over the years.

Jamie:

My allo fathers, if you will, with Darryl and Mike.

Jamie:

They're a married gay couple in their 80s who have really healed a lot of the dad shaped hole in my heart.

Jamie:

And just very dear friends, I mean, my friends Allie and Claire, you'll meet them in the book.

Jamie:

They've been just.

Jamie:

There are no words for the role that they've had.

Jamie:

And yes, they're friends, they're sustaining friends, yet they have this quality of sister to them as well.

Jamie:

And yeah, I hope you'll laugh when I tell a few of our stories because with Allie and Claire both, it's been a sense of.

Jamie:

We have found, I think, our shared humanity, our shared spirituality through just finding a lot of humor in the absurdity of life.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

We were raised with.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

And I think, I don't know whether it's just like the trauma therapist in me, but like, humor is a lifeline.

Dr. Jamie:

Like, it's just gotta be, because otherwise, you know, you can't live in the.

Dr. Jamie:

Can't live in the heaviness.

Dr. Jamie:

We need the levity.

Dr. Jamie:

But one of the.

Dr. Jamie:

My favorite questions to ask in these podcasts is one around just wanting to reclaim words that I think particularly evangelical Christianity thinks that they own and they don't.

Dr. Jamie:

know, in, you know, September:

Jamie:

What brings me joy and peace?

Jamie:

The friends I mentioned, my creativity, my creative process brings me peace.

Jamie:

And I think saying this from the United States, where I have a lot of fear, because whatever the result is of our election that we're facing, there's so gonna be so much fallout.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And it has been scary to consider just how much hate is living around me.

Jamie:

And I say that as a privileged white person.

Jamie:

I mean, other folks who are more marginalized from a racial, ethnic perspective have likely always felt this.

Jamie:

Yet for me, it's, it's, it's a new heightened level of awareness.

Jamie:

So what brings me peace, what brings me joy is when I realize that not Everybody living around me is like that.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

When I.

Jamie:

Over the summer I went to a church service at the more progressive church in my town.

Jamie:

And ultimately, like, the service and the style wasn't for me, but it was just cool to see so many progressively thinking people there who do worship Jesus, who do have a connection and relationship with God.

Jamie:

So I think when people are willing to stand up against Christian nationalism and theocracy, that gives me peace to see that I'm not alone.

Jamie:

And why that's important is there's another aspect, I think, of spiritual abuse here that I want to name.

Jamie:

If you grew up in high demand religion, that when you're a kid especially, and you're the one asking questions or you're the one wondering, is there something wrong with me because I like girls, it can be a very lonely feeling in the vein of I'm the only one.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

So there must be something uniquely wrong with me.

Jamie:

So then I think when you get out and you realize, oh, there are others.

Speaker E:

Yeah, it's such a.

Jamie:

Such a breath.

Dr. Jamie:

Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Jamie:

And.

Dr. Jamie:

And I think that's where I.

Dr. Jamie:

On the other side of it, I obviously know that people who are living it don't necessarily have this perspective, but on the other side of it, I've chatted with a few people who, who experienced the same sort of thing, which is we just thought we were really good at not being attracted to boys and like really good at purity culture.

Dr. Jamie:

And we were just like, really like.

Dr. Jamie:

It just, you know, fed into that, the moral superiority that we already had as like fundamental believers, that we were just like extra good in that regard to, you know, my other teenage girlfriends at the time.

Dr. Jamie:

So it's on the other side.

Dr. Jamie:

There is humor to be said in that space as well, which is nice.

Dr. Jamie:

One of the question that I like to finish these episodes on is one of encouragement to those who are in the thick of it at the moment.

Dr. Jamie:

And what you would say to those who are in the middle of pulling on that thread and they're just surrounded by all of this that they don't know what to do with, you've been lied to.

Jamie:

That probably sounds very on brand, considering I wrote a book called you lied to me about God.

Jamie:

Yet so much of the.

Jamie:

And it can feel when the lies are coming at you with a lot of vitriol and scariness and threat that they really must be true.

Jamie:

I remember at one point I said to my first recovery sponsor, but my dad prides himself on being brutally honest, and maybe I'm just the wrong one.

Jamie:

Here, because I don't want to accept that honesty.

Jamie:

She goes to me, maybe he's just brutal.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

And a lot of people in those contexts will frame it as brutal honesty, and it's not.

Jamie:

It's just not.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

I will often, like, often say hate disguised as love is still hate.

Dr. Jamie:

It's just got a pretty mask on it.

Jamie:

And I think another message I can, you know, I want to give people too, is if.

Jamie:

If you're.

Jamie:

If it's your relationship with God and Jesus that's concerning you here, you can still have that.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Jamie:

Even when you get away from these systems that make you feel like shit about yourself.

Jamie:

I know they tell you that you can't, but that's part of the control dynamic here.

Speaker E:

Yeah.

Dr. Jamie:

It's part of the lines.

Jamie:

Yes.

Jamie:

That.

Jamie:

That is my message.

Dr. Jamie:

I love that.

Dr. Jamie:

Well, thank you again for joining me.

Dr. Jamie:

Thank you for writing your book and for doing the work that you do in the space of spiritual abuse, particularly in.

Dr. Jamie:

In the us.

Jamie:

Our pleasure.

Jamie:

Thank you for doing what you're doing in Australia.

Jamie:

This is an issue that exists around the world in all religions, even other than Christianity, and it's a privilege anytime that we can have this conversation.

Speaker E:

Yeah, thanks.

Dr. Jamie:

Jamie, welcome.

Sam:

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface.

Sam:

I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

Sam:

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories.

Sam:

Stay connected with us on social media.

Dr. Jamie:

For updates and more content.

Sam:

I love connecting with all of you.

Sam:

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone.

Sam:

Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward.

Dr. Jamie:

Take care.

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About the Podcast

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Beyond The Surface
Stories of Religious Trauma, Faith Deconstruction & Cults

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About your host

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Samantha Sellers

Sam is a registered therapist in Australia; she specialises in Religious Trauma, Deconstruction and the Queer Community. She works locally in Goulburn, NSW and online worldwide (except US & Canada)

She values the privilege that she gets to sit with people, hear their story and share in the highs and lows of the thing we call life. Sam loves nothing more than being a part of someone feeling seen and heard.

Sam is a proudly queer woman and married to the wonderful Chrissy and together they have a sweet Cavoodle named Naya who is a frequent guest in the therapy space.