The One Who Is Finding Spirituality Within The Grey

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Sam: 00:00:58

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface.

Sam: 00:01:39

Welcome, Jacqui. Thanks for joining me.

Jacqui: 00:01:42

Thanks, Sam. Glad to be here.

Sam: 00:01:45

I.

I was saying before we hit record that I really love people who are in the same time zone as me because I love being able to say good morning and know that the other person is actually in the morning. It's always nice to chat to someone in this part of the world.

There's like a nice sense of familiar when talking to someone who has an Aussie or New Zealander accent. It's just nice. So. So before we kick straight in, where in the world are you?

Jacqui: 00:02:14

I am in Melbourne.

Sam: 00:02:16

Amazing. Melbourne is beautiful. If people around the world have not been to Melbourne. I went there for the first time in June just this year, and I loved it.

It's. It's just like, full of culture and really, really good coffee, which is just like. That's a defining factor as to where.

Jacqui: 00:02:33

Which is funny. I'm a stove topper. So even though I live in the city of coffee, I. I just really love my little espresso Stove Top. And so.

But what's funny is because it's obviously strong.

Sam: 00:02:47

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:02:48

Though not as some. Not as strong as some who, like you put a spoon in, it stands upright. But. But I think now it's forever challenged. My.

When I go to a coffee shop, it now doesn't feel strong enough.

Sam: 00:03:01

Oh, yeah. It would feel like I made a triple shot. Yes. Yeah, no, that's fair.

Jacqui: 00:03:06

And I should say I'm actually on Boonwurrung land.

Sam: 00:03:10

Right.

Jacqui: 00:03:10

So I love that you do a, you know, acknowledgment of country at the start of your pod.

Sam: 00:03:16

Yes.

Jacqui: 00:03:16

And so I am in Melbourne on Boon Land.

Sam: 00:03:19

Lovely. And as, I mean, it's in my acknowledgment, but I am always recording on Gundangara land. I'd never record anywhere else, so.

But I love to start these podcasts with a really lovely, broad, vague question that catapults the rest of the episode, which is, where does your story start?

Jacqui: 00:03:43

It's. I was listening to your last episode with. I think it was Matthias.

And so that was helpful because I'm thinking, okay, she's going to ask that question. So I think probably the best place to start is I was a child of the 80s, right. And I loved Big Hair 80s Rock. I.

I think even in: 1980

So that kind of gives listeners a bit of an idea about, you know, the upbringing that I was having, which is probably, you know, a bit at odds with conservative Christianity. Yeah, I loved. My childhood was quite idyllic in many ways. I love summer, I love Slurpees. I was always longing for school holidays.

It was really a typical Aussie childhood. You know, I had a swimming pool in the backyard, three older sisters. You know, always had two dogs and two cats.

So it was very busy, lively household, always had other kids over. So really happy childhood. I guess what was probably different for me is that I had a deep spiritual yearning.

So I can remember I lived in an agnostic household. So my, you know, family, my parents believed in a higher power, but perhaps in more of that, you know, agnostic way.

And the church wasn't part of my upbringing, but I did. I was a, as I often say to people, I was a pretty spiritual kid.

And so I can remember having DNM's with friend's mom who was a Christian at about 10, 11 and 12, and asking, you know, the big questions of why are we here? You know, I was always looking up into space and thinking, what's that all about? You know, so, you know, quite a soulful kid.

So whilst I was, you know, loving Slurpees and 80s rock, I think I dreamt a lot as well.

Sam: 00:05:47

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:05:47

And. And so I think my thought life and was a big, you know, which in some ways was at odds with the 80s, which is a very. It was a very.

It was superficial in some ways. Great fashion, not so much, but it was great in many ways. But I think people who wanted a deeper meaning in life, it wasn't so good with that.

And I think maybe that's what actually attracted me to church. So I ended up going to church with a friend. So my friend whose mum was Christian and I started going to church at about.

I went to Girls Brigade in primary school and then I started going to church on my own in about year seven.

Sam: 00:06:31

Yeah, I love chatting to people who didn't grow up in a Christian household because that's also my story. So it's. So I, I find it so interesting. I mean I. I mean maybe it's because I wasn't born in the 80s, but I love 80s fashion. Like I don' what.

Maybe it's just because like I didn't grow up in it that I look back and I go 80s fashion was sick. Like I have some of my mum's pieces of clothing that I'm like, I love that now.

Okay, what was it like for you as, I mean like year seven, you're what, like 12, 13. I would have turning 13. Yeah. What was it like going to a church at that age on your own, you know, on your own volition?

And also what flavor of church was it?

Jacqui: 00:07:24

Baptist. Right, the local Baptist church, Mentone Baptist Church. And look, my first church experience was actually really good.

You know, it was a very community based church. They. Yeah, it was it, you know, unlike other people with, you know, a religious trauma where it was coercive from the get go.

That wasn't my experience. I think Mentone Baps was a really community. We had a great youth group. We did lots of fun things.

You know, we had something called Sing on Sundays where we'd invade someone's house and go and sing choruses out of the chorus books.

Sam: 00:08:11

Right.

Jacqui: 00:08:11

Tim Tams after like it was, you know, it was sort of a good Christian living in many ways.

Sam: 00:08:17

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:08:17

I think, you know, I'm still friends with my pastor's daughter. So all of these years later I'm still friends with people that I went to mention baps with.

I guess what's different for me is perhaps my deconstruction journey like healthcare as a.

I'm a mental health nurse is there's lots of wonderful things about church and religion but when the system meets the needs of the system and not the people. Yeah, you have a problem and that system then becomes toxic.

So I guess now I look back on my first church experience and realize that some of those coercive beliefs about purity, culture, you know, that binary thinking, you know, I can remember being in that church and there was a young gay man and you know, feeling a lot of sadness about his experience because, you know, he didn't fit in and, and whilst I don't think we were overtly aggressive, but I think there was a lot of mocking and bullying. Fortunately he's gone on to be a very successful interior designer. So it's like success is the best revenge and lives in Sydney.

But I do, I think back to that time and I think, you know, in many ways I was an observer. You know, I've always, where some might call it the wallflower, I think I've.

Throughout my life, even as young As a 13 year old, I would often sit on the outside looking in and be assessing what's happening. And I think that really that personality type helped me in nursing because nursing is all about observation.

So I think I'm a natural born observer and used to look at church even way back then as a 13 year old and thinking some of this is good, but some of this isn't.

And as a person who lived in a family who was agnostic and advocates, you know, my family, if anyone wants to get to understand me, they need to meet my family because we just have a natural born advocacy that's, you know, kind of built into us.

Supposedly a hundred years ago one of our relatives let all the dogs out of the, the dog carriage that they were collecting stray dogs and they've gone up the back of it and opened it and let them all out. So that really describes who we are as people that we just want to see life improved. I think so a core.

And I think the other thing is I had my first spiritual experience at 14 and it was one that I had on my own. It wasn't a church, wasn't in a church, it was on a camp and I was out. Well, we were out on a night hike and. But I was sort of walking ahead.

I think I was a moody teenager and had had enough of their um. But really had this really meaningful religious experience or not religious experience, spiritual experience of just having a connection with God.

Sam: 00:11:34

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:11:34

So I think throughout my Christian life that has always been a really helpful anchor because my faith and my spirituality has always been mine and I really connected. What Matthias said in, in that episode where, you know, I think you asked the question of how did he hold on to it.

And I think I was able to hold on to my faith because it was always mine.

Sam: 00:12:00

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:12:02

And. And whilst, you know. And I guess in some ways it took leaving the institution of church to claim it back. And that's the. Where I'm at at the moment.

Sam: 00:12:14

Yeah.

Sam: 00:12:15

I'm curious what it was like for you to shift from the beliefs about yourself and the world that you got from your parents growing up in an agnostic home to the beliefs that you started to internalize about yourself and the world from the church that you're in as a teenager.

Jacqui: 00:12:34

Great question. They as a family. And look, it was back in the 80s and 90s and we were all a bit less PC back then. They struggled with it. You know.

And I think for my parents and let's be honest, the 80s and 90s religion was very binary. You know, opinionated your. And you talked about this in the last podcast too. You know, we're right, you're wrong.

So I appreciate that when I was a teenager and teenagers are pretty opinionated anyway.

Sam: 00:13:09

I think they still are.

Jacqui: 00:13:10

Yeah.

Sam: 00:13:11

I don't think that's changed.

Jacqui: 00:13:12

I know everything at 18.

Sam: 00:13:14

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:13:16

In that I look back at that time now and realize that I was different to my family because I had different beliefs. Partly my own, but partly informed by the church I was going to that is heavily influenced by Southern Baptist in America, but had an Aussie flavor.

And I don't think we was. Are in. We were or not. My church anyway were as intense as. As the Baptist I hear people talk about in the States.

But I still think that arrogance and we're right and you're wrong informed it. So I kind of have, you know, major cringe when I think back to. To times like that. But I listened to a really. It was so random.

It was a interview with a ex football player who's like 50, this is a couple of years ago or last year or something. And he said I'm not going to talk about my younger self because that's what I knew then and this is what I know now.

And I really claim that because regret. And then last year I read a really amazing book, the Power of Regret by Daniel Pink. Renee Brown interviewed him.

That was really meaningful for my deconstruction as well because I think regret is a powerful emotion.

Sam: 00:14:33

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:14:34

And it actually helps us improve going forward. So when we look back and sort of go, oh God, that actually is helpful because we learn from that. But you know, first.

So for me, I'm not hashtag no regrets. I'm actually hashtag live learn from regret. You know. And so I think for me, in that state of deconstruction.

I do feel, you know, some of my triggers are actually, you know, I was such an. Or I was, you know, so opinionated or whatever, but. But that's no longer who I am. So, you know, and that's the growth of adulting, I think.

Sam: 00:15:10

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. I mean, the right versus wrong is just like the moral superiority that church systems breed, which that's often like.

I remember, I remember feeling and, and knowing that like I had that moral super superiority. And it's like the weirdest dichotomy to sort of look at the way that I view that now.

But I think it's just moving from a place of self criticism to a place of self compassion and going like, she did all she knew. Like, of course she had a sense of moral superiority. Of course she believed those things. It's what she was taught. Right. And it's.

So it's now sort of going, but it's the same, that's the same self that actually got us to this point. That's going, that's deconstructing. That's going, hey, that's not okay.

It's like an evolved version of ourselves and we need all of those versions to be able to have hit the point where, where we are now. So what was it like for you in your sort of like young adulthood? Were you.

I described myself as like a black and white, all or nothing, knee deep in church. That was kind of me. Was that your experience?

Jacqui: 00:16:31

No, definitely not. So, and I was just reflecting.

I went to a all girls state school and I think in many ways, and I interviewed Theon and Newton on my podcast about that. We went to school together and we both reflected on the fact that in many ways that was protective.

Yeah, because in school and then nursing, I was encouraged to be a strong female. I was encouraged to be an advocate for other women and really taught that I could be anything I wanted to be.

And then I lived in a family like that as well. So, you know, five women and a male in a household.

And you know, my parents, you know, were a partnership before that was, you know, even a thing in many ways. And so I think I was fortunate to have a lot of protective factors, but also a lot of balancing factors.

It's probably even a better word that, you know, so whilst I was in church and I really connected with that spiritual experience, I was always discontent with some of it because I thought it doesn't fit. So, you know, as a young adult, what immediately came to mind is I was drunk a lot.

Sam: 00:17:46

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:17:48

But that didn't fit church, you know. And so through that time, I did sadly experience a lot of shame. And. And I guess, you know, that's what we go to therapy now for.

But I think in many ways I. Particularly as a young adult, but even still now I've. I've.

I really resonated with what you said about having a foot on both sides of the Grand Canyon, you know, that I've never really fit. I was always a square peg in a round hole. And so I was too.

I was too Christian for people that didn't go to church, but I wasn't Christian enough for people that were in church. And so I kind of ended up living a bit of a. A nomadic life.

But in some ways it actually suited me because I think what I've been learning in my deconstruction is I am a freestyler by now, by, by person, like, by personality. Like, even when I was a. In high school, I was a floater.

Sam: 00:18:49

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:18:50

So, you know, I'd have friends.

I had a group of friends that I hung out with, and then I'd have a group of church friends, and then I'd have a group in the year level above me, and then I would often do school production. So I was never sort of stuck in one spot. I was the kind of person that really felt happiest when I had a rich community in different places.

And I, I think those of us in the deconstruction space have a lot of work to do to deconstruct theology, particularly for those of us that want to remain in faith, we've got a lot of work to do in terms of reframing and, and, and understanding theology with its.

What its intention was, whereas we're only looking at it through the lens of evangelical, you know, rather than saying, you know, like Psalm 23, the valley of the shadow of death. Well, anyone who has depression can relate to that.

Sam: 00:19:48

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:19:49

You know, and so for me, as a. I guess a person who is holding on to some. Some of the content in the Bible, what I've probably.

And that part of that was I, you know, learned many years ago about looking for the timeless principle. I think, Sam, what's really helped me through this journey is healthcare is actually having a. Is in a state of deconstruction as well.

Sam: 00:20:18

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:20:19

And so I often joke that I'm in a state of double deconstruction.

Sam: 00:20:24

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:20:25

I think in many ways it's helping me because rather than throw the baby out with the Bath water. I love health care, you know, so for me, it's about. I want to see healthcare be good and healthy and hold on to what is good, but get rid of the.

That, you know, which is something you said before made me think of, you know, that superiority healthcare has that with doctors.

Sam: 00:20:50

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:20:51

You know, don't question, you know, the medical fraternity, like they know everything. Well, they don't actually. And so I think for me, that's been really helpful in my religious deconstruction of.

Because it's sort of like I still want to hold on to my faith.

Sam: 00:21:09

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:21:10

But at the same time, I know that when I meet clients that have been traumatized by then how. How does faith need to be reconstructed so it's safe for them, you know, and that's partly. I think that's the work of all of us.

Doing this work is, you know, not to throw. For me anyway. And I appreciate other people have a different opinion, but for me, it's not to throw out spirituality.

Sam: 00:21:40

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:21:41

We can throw out religion. I'm happy with that. The man made institution.

Sam: 00:21:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:21:46

I want to hold on to spirituality because as I said, that's always been meaningful for me.

Sam: 00:21:52

Yeah.

Sam: 00:21:52

I mean, I think in. In a lot of ways we just as we are mental, emotional, physical beings, we are also spiritual beings.

And spiritual doesn't necessarily have to have anything associated with religion or even divinity. But like, spirituality is like a connection to yourself and to the world around you and to nature and to, you know, things like that.

And so I think in some ways we all have an element of spirituality. It's just finding was the most authentic part of that for us to be able to connect with ourselves.

I'm curious, you sort of like described the floating around and the nomadic part of you. Did you find that that made it easier or more difficult to feel grounded within yourself?

Jacqui: 00:22:41

That's a big question.

Sam: 00:22:43

It's called beyond the Surface. Jackie.

Jacqui: 00:22:46

Yes. I did look at that title this morning and thought, oh, this is going to be fun. No better. Look, as a fellow therapist, you know, I get that.

I think it's both because I think, you know, like Renee Brown would say, we have a natural desire to connect.

Sam: 00:23:05

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:23:06

And to be seen and to be part of community. But I guess in many ways, because, you know, I've. I've often not fit in to different parts in my life for lots of reasons. I think being a nomad is.

Is my value. So I really. One of my core values is I value freedom. And so I think for me that nomadic Spirit is.

Is partly because of that I don't like to be confined. So whilst I will still, ironically, I'm a nurse, so.

And nurses traditionally start in the system, but I quickly left the hospital system and then went to Community Health, which was such a better fit because it had freedom in that, you know, that I could move around. I wasn't, you know, so don't get me wrong, I admire my colleagues who work in hospitals, but for me, it. It. I just.

Like a plant, I was in the wrong environment. And so when I found Community Health, I was like, oh, this is so much better. And I had.

And then I was fortunate to find a job that offered me a lot of autonomy.

Sam: 00:24:15

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:24:15

I think for me, like any person connecting with who I am and not, you know, when we want to belong, we sometimes adopt the behaviors of others or the beliefs of others because we want to connect. You know, we see that in teenagers. They all want to be individual, but then they all dress the same.

Sam: 00:24:35

Yeah.

Sam: 00:24:36

I mean, like to quote Brene Brown again, we often will trade authenticity for belonging. Right. You know, we. It's the need for belonging sometimes surpasses our need to be ourselves. Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:24:50

So I think it's been a wrestle and I think it's. It's been both good and hard.

But I think, you know, being raised as an advocate in my family, in my school and then in my career, I think that has always. I've pissed off a lot of men in leadership because I'll say, why are we doing it that way? Or I would ask questions that other people.

And I experienced a lot of workplace trauma as a result of that. So I think now the work that I do is often around institutional trauma.

So whether it's religion, whether it's healthcare or whether medical trauma or whether it's workplace trauma, because, you know, I pissed off a lot of men in churches, particularly male leaders, because I'd say, why are we doing it that way?

And they were like, you know, I could see them fluff up their feathers, you know, all that posturing, because they're like, who are you as a woman to ask me this? And I'm like, I'd been taught, I was allowed to, you know, And I think what I'm learning is that it's the hard.

Whilst they're really hard experiences to live, they have all taught me valuable lessons. And. And so I think I'm also, you know, in a culture of consumerism that's obsessed with comfort.

But then I've had the fortune of working with a lot of community clients that come from hard background backgrounds, whether it's migrant backgrounds or whether it's family violence backgrounds, that it's often in the hard parts of life. Or farmers who are, you know, they're like resilience personified. I think I'm learning that not to avoid hard things.

And I love that podcast with Glenn and Doyle.

We can do hard things because I think in a culture that's obsessed with comfort, which that's equally coercive, is actually just to sort of approach life as this is hard. F. F bomb for emphasis. And then find a pathway through that.

Sam: 00:27:17

Yeah.

Sam: 00:27:17

I mean, and I think, like, I love the.

I love Glenn and saying we can do hard things because it reminds us that actually we have the capacity to do the hard things and come out on the other side side as well. And I think too often we think that we don't have that capacity to be able to be able to move through the hard stuff in life.

But actually we have an immense amount of capacity. We've just been told otherwise by the systems and by the higher people around us.

You talked a little bit about being raised as that strong, independent woman and that strong feminine part in your identity. And so I'm curious how that intersected with the very masculine archetype of God that you would have been presented with.

Jacqui: 00:28:03

Good question. I'm just going to quickly reflect back on the hard things. Think of all the people that do marathons, ultra marathons, Camino Trail, Pagoda Trail.

At the moment, we are in a culture of comfort, and people are seeking out things that put their body. Body under duress. I think that's an interesting reflection.

Sam: 00:28:27

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:28:28

Because it's a paradox of life. I don't think we're meant to be hurt, but we're meant to struggle. You know, even a baby coming out into the world, there's an element of struggle.

And so it's just a paradox of life, that struggle strengthens us. I think there's always a limit. And you and I as therapists know that, you know, we.

We talk about that with our clients, that, you know, there's a line of harm. But at the same time, you know, humans are really benefit from struggle and.

And how any farmer seriously can plant another crop after losing it the year before, it just floors me.

Sam: 00:29:11

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:29:11

Because I think I try and really hold on to that. So when I'm complaining about whatever, I think of my, you know, fellow Australian farmers who just teach us what resilience looks like.

Sam: 00:29:24

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:29:24

Back to your question. I think like Matthias, and again, I just listened to it this morning. I've.

I've always connected with a loving God, and I think I really loved the movie the Shack.

Sam: 00:29:37

Oh, yeah.

Jacqui: 00:29:38

Octavia Spencer as God was just perfect casting, in my opinion. And I read that book and then I watched the movie, and then equally, the.

The male version of God is the Mexican or the, you know, the South American God.

Sam: 00:29:52

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:29:53

Really, it. I think, in many ways. And I also had a. I also had a father who was very emotionally available.

Sam: 00:30:03

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:30:05

So I guess in some ways I had parents who, you know, are kind of traditional in. Because of their age, because they're. But then in many ways, dad was very, you know, he was the one I was in year 12, I'm gonna fail, you know, and.

And he would sit with me and Mum would be like, you'll be right. Get on with it. You know, good, stoic Dutch woman. But then dad was the one who would often sit with us when we were struggling.

And so I think I was really fortunate to grow up with parents that access both sides of that. They had both female and male attributes.

Sam: 00:30:39

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:30:39

So I guess for me, I was always. And I loved movies, too, so I think I also really connected with movies where men were.

Where men were represented as compassionate people, like goodwill hunting, you know, with Robin Williams as the person that helped this young man find his. Find himself. And. And so I think all of those things have helped me, you know, and when I'm struggling, I really just focus on. I.

I look at the best in humanity and. And I think the best of humanity for me represents God and reminding myself that the shitty behavior of people is not, you know, is not God. And.

And that for me, anyway, God is. Is seen in the. In the best of people. And so I think that's really helped me kind of connect with the masculine, because my.

My belief of masculine is not, you know, that toxic masculinity. My understanding of masculinity is, you know, the father who shows empathy and compassion and kindness.

Sam: 00:31:59

Yeah.

Sam: 00:32:00

I think as you're talking, it reminds me of. Actually, it was the second episode that I released of the podcast was a while ago, but with Will Small, who hosts the Spiritual Misfits podcast.

And when I asked him about, you know, holding on to his faith, he talked a little bit about changing the point of reference of, you know, the Christians that he was around. And if your frame of reference is always the worst kind of Christians, then of course that's going to be awful. But that's not all of those people.

Right. And so I Think, I mean, I think that we can take that mentality to a lot of different spaces other than religion.

But you know, it is about shifting that frame of reference to rather than.

I mean, and it's also moving out of that all or nothing thinking that church tends to give you anyway that sort of pendulum that we're either all good or all bad. But actually there's a shitload of gray in that black and white.

Jacqui: 00:33:04

Oh, navigating the gray. And that's actually something a lovely male, you know, who's now a minister was at the time that was at a.

I met him at a Bible college, but he taught me about navigating the gray. So, you know, I think I've been fortunate to have different people in my life that have, you know, represent.

Have just given me a different perspective, you know. But even most recently, I really love the series Grantchester. It's a UK series set in the 50s.

A cop and a priest solve crimes and it's funny, it's a bit like the vicar of Dibley but different. But the, the Anglican priests are flawed human beings. It's stories by people for people.

And I really love that series because it, whilst it's funny and it's all focused around, you know, solving the.

Another crime in this tiny weeny town, it does such a good job at building on the, on the character of a person and how we grow as people when we strengthen each other.

So actually as we develop closeness and as we are vulnerable with each other and authentic with each other, that actually we can bring out the best in one another. Yeah. So, you know, I would love that series so much.

Sam: 00:34:36

You talk a lot about your life in healthcare and nursing and so my former like anti evolution self has got to ask, what is it like for you to balance faith and science? Because some would suggest that those things are in opposition.

Jacqui: 00:34:56

Well, they're not because the, the origin of science is, was actually theologians. So a lot of, a lot of the, I want to say fathers of science, but I don't like that term because there was a lot of women as well. They just.

Sam: 00:35:08

Founders of science.

Jacqui: 00:35:09

Yeah, founders of science. Thank you, thank you. But I think the founders of science held both faith and science together.

But you know, I mean, I did nursing, you know, I think I'm a fairly practical person and I never really believed in, you know, the world forming in seven days.

And I was learning about evolution at school and I think as a, you know, an inquiring mind, I, I kind of, I think when things were too hard, I would just put them in the. Not the too hard basket. But I. I don't know. So I'll just. I don't, you know, like.

And I think I used to look up the expanse of, you know, the sky and sort of go, there's so much we don't know. But even the human body is in a. Is a universe in itself in many ways. And so I think, you know, I was just able to.

With the balance I had in my life of school and nursing and the church I went to wasn't overtly, you know, Genesis, you know, kind of evolution. So I don't think that was ever one of our main focuses.

You know, you probably think about that and go, but, yeah, but I also love Jurassic park, so, I mean, to.

Sam: 00:36:31

Be fair, who doesn't? I just drank out of a dine like a mug this morning that says, all I want for Christmas is a dinosaur. Yeah, it's great. I mean, that.

That sense of being able to put things in the, I don't know, basket, has that always felt good? Or was there a time?

Because I remember, like, the words I don't know, used to instill, like, an immense amount of panic and anxiety and fear because, you know, I was always taught that I was to be certain and steadfast in my faith and my beliefs and. And that sort of thing.

And so has the phrase, I don't know always been a comfort or easy for you, or was there a time where that phrase instilled fear or panic?

Jacqui: 00:37:18

I think I've always had a strong opinion it's a. It's a family trait, but I think I would put it aside for belonging.

So I think as I, you know, looking back on my Christian life, I would ironically deny myself, and that's Christian language, to be included. And I kind of feel sad that I didn't give myself opportunity to be more unique to self, you know.

You know, I'm also a childless cat lady, so in many ways, I just don't fit in society's norms.

Sam: 00:38:01

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:38:01

You know, but I'm learning to appreciate that and embrace that and.

And see that that offers a different perspective, you know, so, you know, going through your 20s and 30s, particularly in church life, and, oh, you're not married or you don't have kids or what's wrong with you.

Sam: 00:38:15

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:38:16

But now that I'm in my late 40s and I.

I watch, I talk to a lot of people who are struggling in those systems, feeling a lot of freedom, you know, and so I think that I denied myself for belonging and so many of us do that.

Sam: 00:38:34

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:38:35

You know, and. And I think it was covered. So, like Jan Kennedy, I've. I kind of been deconstructing for a long time, but I think.

over the years, but it was in: 2021

There's a lot of similarities to that, to the churches I've been in, like, that coercive control group. Think we didn't have to wear long skirts or have our hair long. But.

Sam: 00:39:20

Yeah, but there was.

Jacqui: 00:39:21

good. And so at the start of: 2021

I'm sick of hearing the same people get up the front and. And share stuff, because whenever they had someone on there that was sharing their story or something, I'd be like, awesome.

And then there'll be the same person again next week. And I'm like, oh, roll my eyes.

Sam: 00:39:50

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:39:52

decided, you know, So I spent: 2021

Sam: 00:40:02

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:40:03

So even though I am someone who has a strong opinion, I realize that the opinions of others can be strong, can suffocate.

Sam: 00:40:12

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:40:14

But I think at the same time, again, that's been a good learning because now in the counseling work I do, it's really important to me to make sure that I don't give too much information and that I. I don't. Because healthcare, again, can be quite informational and overpowering.

And so my approach to the work that I do is really ensuring that I come with resources, but my role is really to support the person, to work out what's right for them.

Sam: 00:40:49

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:40:50

You know, so I consider that was a good. A good opportunity. And. And, you know, I have. At this stage, I am freestyling. I am and really, again, still a person of faith, but I. I find faith in.

Outside the institution of church.

Sam: 00:41:14

Yeah.

Sam: 00:41:14

I think in.

As I record these episodes here and in the stories of my clients and other people that I've connected with online, Covid restricted the world in so many ways, but expanded us in so many ways also.

And I mean, to be like Covid hit to churches because it was an opportunity for people to not be flooded with what the norm is of like people's beliefs and, and particularly, you know, straight white middle class men's beliefs onto us and, and we had an opportunity to look inward as opposed to outward. And I think that that expanded us in a lot of ways. What's been the most helpful part of your deconstruction journey so far or the most poignant part?

Jacqui: 00:42:16

Podcast and series, actually. Because I think like under the Banner of Heaven.

Sam: 00:42:21

Oh yeah.

Jacqui: 00:42:24

I mean I love Andrew Garfield so that was help. His other movie Tick tick boom.

Sam: 00:42:31

Oh yes. Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:42:32

A celebration of all things good.

Sam: 00:42:35

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:42:36

But I really love. And actually Hacksaw Rich was. Is another movie he's in.

But I, you know, I think movies have a lot of people say you watch too much tv, but what they don't realize is I'm engaging with the story. It, for me it's just, you know, I don't watch rubbish tv. You know, for me I'm, I'm looking for good quality stories that people are telling.

Ted Lasso, you know, was a wonderful. And again like challenging toxic masculinity. And they chose soccer, which is like one of the most toxic systems for men.

And here comes this, you know, wonderful character of Ted Lasso coming in and, and showing what, you know, a nurturing, vulnerable man and the, the world lapped it up. So I think there's something to be said about.

We need to value pop culture more particularly good quality pop culture because Schitt's Creek's another one.

Sam: 00:43:42

Schitt's Creek has my whole heart. It's like it just is.

And I just love it because like, as someone within the queer community, Schitt's Creek just did a top notch job of presenting like wholesome queer culture and not stereotypical relationships or stereotypically queer people, but just like normal, wholesome good queerness. And I just, but even like loving.

Jacqui: 00:44:09

People that are weird.

Sam: 00:44:09

I love it.

Jacqui: 00:44:11

Like he's a quirky character.

But yes, the, the relationships that are built in that series are just wonderful because at first they're like jarring with each other, but as they really connect with, you know, each other and it's just such a wonderful series in so many ways. So I think podcast and series I do.

For me, I've been very fortunate to find a lovely spiritual mentor who's also a nurse who has, I've, I've sort of journeyed with her over about five years. So pre covered and at times wrestled with it.

But she has, you know, been so helpful in terms of helping me navigate because I think, you know, deconstructing, you can do it on your own.

But I think finding fellow travelers is whether it's a counselor or whether, whether it's, you know, some kind of spiritual mentor or someone else is, is just finding people who kind of really get you.

And, and also I think what's been really helpful for her is she's not overtly trying to tell me anything as a spiritual mentor or spiritual companion they call them. She's just trying to help me develop my spirituality.

So I think it's the spiritual equivalent of what counseling is, is trying to really help someone kind of find themselves. So that's been really helpful.

The other thing that probably was really crucial for me was last year I did some mindful self compassion training and interestingly, it was led by a psychiatrist, but in a community program. So I think it, it actually helped me both in my health deconstruction, but equally my faith deconstruction.

Because I remember in the first, I remember in the first, I was going to say episode, I clearly watched a lot of series in the first session. Peter said, to live is to suffer. And I was like, what the.

You know, that's because as a nurse, my whole job is trying to alleviate people's suffering. So I wrestled with that for that whole program.

And it really helped me come to settle with that belief that, you know, we can't eliminate suffering, but we can reduce suffering. But really it sort of gave me a theology of suffering, you know, of that. It's how to hold yourself and how to hold others.

You know, we're terrible with grief.

We have a lot of work to be done in terms of grief care because most people are like, too hard and then run away and then people are left alone in their grief. And as you, as you guys said on that one of the episodes, we're not so good with grief. Grief care and religious trauma is often about grief.

Sam: 00:47:35

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:47:35

So I think for me that was really helpful in kind of, you know, giving, contextualizing where I am in my deconstruction journey and, and just to sort of take it day by day, like not. And to slow down, like to not feel like it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

Because I think that's another false belief we live within, in the community, whether it's religious trauma or other that like mental health, it's not meant to be something we fix, it's something we recover from.

However that looks, you know, so if it's living with, you know, for some people with psychosis, it, they might live with voices, but it's learning to live with the voices. It's not getting rid of the voices.

And there's a lot of wonderful work being done by people in that space of not seeing people for their deficits, but seeing people for their strengths and then helping people, you know, kind of. And again, that's non binary thinking.

It's not absence of disease, it's helping people thrive within, within the limits of this life, I guess, is where I kind of sit now as a person.

Sam: 00:48:56

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, something that I often find myself quoting with people and online is, you know, you are good, you have always been good.

And it's coming back to, you know, the opposite of what we've been taught, which is that we are broken, but actually that coming back to our inherent good, us at the core of ourself.

And, and so yeah, I mean, I think in white Western society we notoriously suck at grief and suck at most things to be fair, when it comes to like responding to pain and, and, and you know, anything that would be not under the banner of positivity. So I think it's just changing.

I'm not sure I personally agree with the concept that to live is to suffer, but I think, you know, in life we can't escape pain. And I think it's about changing the way that we respond to pain and the way we view the purpose of pain.

I think maybe it's just the language of suffering that I'm going love that.

But, but, and I think, and I'm probably saying that purely because I know that there's probably people out there going, you know, particularly who have brought up with the notion that suffering is, is godly and suffering is, is what we're supposed to do in life.

And I think, you know, what we're talking about is that we have the ability to, to sit in the hard stuff and to respond differently to the hard stuff and to not see the hard stuff as a fault in our system or a fault in our being, that at the core of who we are, we are good. I think so.

Jacqui: 00:50:43

And I, I appreciate that reflection.

I think to contextualize it, we have to acknowledge how societies, our society, Western society's belief is to alleviate like is, is a, it's a culture of comfort. But I was fortunate to work with newly arrived migrants and refugees and would listen to their hardships.

And I realized that what they had that others didn't either, that I worked with or that I, you know, engaged with in my life was that when trouble hit, they would, they were good problem solvers and they were resourceful.

But realizing that in a culture of comfort, we can have strong reactions to that, you know, and don't get me wrong, the feelings are valid, but I think what I learned from that period in my, my work was I learned that, you know, life can be really hard sometimes and, and how to. To journey through it. It's like, you know, the storm, the storm analogy of storms will come, but they won't last forever.

And how do we brace ourselves for them? How do we, you know, prepare for them and then how do we recover from them, particularly if they've caused, you know, a lot of destruction.

And then as a person, how can we help people in the recovery of things? And so I agree with you. It's. It's not, you know, it, it's not to eliminate suffering, but it's, but it's also to.

And, and there's some element of alleviate suffering. But I think as humans acknowledging that life can be hard and people can fail us and you know, and then how to just, you know, find.

And I think for me, you know, Brene Brown's been really helpful because it's about connecting with my values. And so I think for me in my deconstruction journey has, has really, that's what helps me come back to self.

Like, so when I am going through difficult things, rather than kind of externalizing and blaming others and all that kind of stuff, I come back to self and think, okay, what need is not being met and how can I meet that for myself and perhaps move away from a system if it's, you know, not working for me?

And you know, and even in my health, deconstruction, as I've moved from, you know, moving from the institution to private practice, oh my gosh, I'm learning so much because private practice has its own challenges. You know, you're working all the time, but you have a lot of freedom and.

Sam: 00:53:30

Yes.

Jacqui: 00:53:30

And that, you know, systems can create. Alleviate some difficulty because it's, it's the collectives working together to meet a need.

So I think it's also helping me appreciate systems can fulfill a function where there's a group of people working together and rather than me doing everything in private practice, that in a, you know, organization where it's a group of people, but the health of the organization or the health of the. The system is paramount to its function.

And so for me, I think that's really where I kind of sit with now in my work is a belief of wanting to help improve the system, to be more healthy. So not just healthy people, but a healthy system. Because without a healthy system, you won't have healthy people, you know, and so health.

And I think I agree with you.

Covid showed us, kind of showed us we can do things differently, like working from home and then people having more time with their kids and all of that kind of stuff. So I think there's so much that we've learned from COVID that we're still unpacking.

But, you know, whether it's healthcare, whether it's religion, whether it's education, whether it's, you know, workplaces, how do we help people thrive? And how do we ensure that collectives of people that are work like systems of people working together like sports.

Another one is how do we make those systems healthy so people can thrive and that it is challenging work. Like, because, you know, when there's people gathered and there's a lot of opinions, it takes really skilled leaders to navigate that discussion.

And I think that's why people resonated with Ted Lasso so much, because they were. I. I can see they were really trying to show that, you know, a good leader needs to be emotionally intelligent and not just successful and productive.

But actually a true leader is someone who can facilitate healthy engagement with other humans. And I don't think we have enough of those in the world, that's for sure.

I think, you know, we need more people in leadership that have really good skills with humans, because then, whereas so much of our leadership in the Last sort of 10 to 20 years has been about productivity, particularly in church, rather than people that are really good at gathering people. You know, which is why I love the term the religious trauma collective. Because it's. It's about.

Yeah, no, it's because it's about bringing people together. But acknowledging bringing people together inherently might can be challenging. So then how do we do that?

That meets the needs of the individual and meets the needs of the collective. And I think in society at the moment, we have this. There's work to be done to bring it to the middle.

Some people are individualists and just the individual, and others are collectivists and just, you know, the collective. But actually, we need to create environments where people can thrive as an individual and thrive together.

And I think that's the challenge and something I'm really passionate about.

Sam: 00:57:00

And I mean, I think, you know, I often will go back to that.

Like Deb Dana says, you Know, we are hardwired for connection, and so we can't, yes, we can deconstruct on our own, but I don't think that that's the way that it is supposed to be. I think, you know, we, Us, you know, we are wired for connection. And so finding safe people and safe connections and safe communities is. Is what is.

Has been so healing for so many who are deconstructing, who are. Are potentially post church or post religion is finding safety within. Within community.

Jacqui: 00:57:45

Again, because I think, Sam, it's dangerous for people to think that religion's the problem.

Sam: 00:57:52

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:57:53

Because it's actually about coercive control.

Sam: 00:57:57

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:57:57

Because people can leave the institution and then end up in a relationship or a family or a workplace or a sporting club that has those coercive behaviors. And so don't get me wrong, like, we need to address, you know, the. The harm that's being caused in religion.

But I guess perhaps because I work in healthcare and, and have worked in other environments of where there's collectives of people and also see a lot of clients that come with their stories and I see coercive control in schools and in sports and in relationships and in families, that it's really important to me that people realize that you can. It's about coercive control and that any group or collective of people. Are you afforded freedom?

Sam: 00:58:52

Yeah.

Jacqui: 00:58:53

Are you afforded the opportunity to have an opinion? And then if you are, great, you know, because that's. That's a green flag.

That's a sign that things are good and safe, but people can equally leave religion and then go to a workplace.

It's just as toxic, you know, and we've heard many podcasts and many documentaries on that kind of thing, you know, the music industry, Hollywood, perfect example, you know, where. So I think it's, you know, but I guess the chat, you know, the particular burden of religious trauma is that it goes to a person's identity.

And, you know, but so I think for me, that's why I'm really just passionate about health of systems. And, and if, and if whatever system people are in, if it's meeting, if. If you sense that the.

The group is trying to meet the needs of the system over the individual, that's a major red flag.

Sam: 01:00:04

Yeah.

Jacqui: 01:00:04

You know, and, and. But a good, healthy system is about. The system meets the needs of the people that use it.

Sam: 01:00:14

Yeah, absolutely.

One of the things that I like, the way that I like to end these episodes is to offer some encouragement to those who are listening, who are potentially at the beginning of their journey. And so I like to end by asking, what would you say to someone who is fresh in their deconstruction?

Jacqui: 01:00:37

I think for me, and perhaps it's informed by, you know, my counseling role, but connect with self. You know, I think for me, my journey particularly was what's important to me, what you know. So I agree with the slowdown and.

And not rushing to fix where you're at at the moment, but the importance of connecting with self, because in many ways, that's probably what's been jarring. And so as you connect with yourself and your values, that will really help going forward to work out where you want to be.

Because I think when people experience trauma, in whatever kind, sometimes they can isolate from people because people are no longer safe.

But I think as we develop a greater sense of connection to self and what our needs are when we interact with people, we can establish safety because we'll go, oh, that's not for me, and move away. So strengthening self and building connection with self is really helpful. So then you can re. Engage with others and.

And be able to navigate complicated people.

Sam: 01:01:52

Absolutely. I. I think. Yeah. I mean, I think at the core of any good trauma recovery is a connection and a coming home to self.

So I think that's a beautiful space for people to end with. Thank you for joining me.

Jacqui: 01:02:11

No worries. Thank you for having me. I hope. Yeah.

I hope the listeners find the conversation helpful and, you know, just really encourage them to reach out to someone who really, you know, can journey with them, because deconstructing on your own pretty hard.

And so it's wonderful that Sam and Jane and Elise have created the collective to give us that point of connection, to find someone who can help us on that journey.

Sam: 01:02:43

Thank you. That's lovely. We are really. The privilege is not lost on us to be working and being in this space, and we love it so.

And we are thankful for people who jump along the ride with us. So. Yes. So thanks, Jackie.

Sam: 01:03:03

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media.

Sam: 01:03:21

For updates and more content.

Sam: 01:03:23

I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep moving forward.

Sam: 01:03:35

Take care.