The One Who Found Life After Religion

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was, and always will be, aboriginal land.

00:58

Hey there and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, claire. Thanks for joining me.

01:42 - Claire (Guest)

Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to whatever we end up talking about.

01:46 - Sam (Host)

I know I love these episodes because they just they go in. You know a vast array of directions, but most people will know you from either Instagram or TikTok, I'm assuming, as the Deconstructing Daily, where you talk about life after religion, as the Deconstructing Daily, where you talk about life after religion. I guess today is a little bit about your story, and so tell me where does your story start when? Does it start.

02:17 - Claire (Guest)

Well, I grew up Catholic. So a lot of people online that I talk about my experience that see me. I'm talking about my evangelical experience. I don't every now and then I talk about my Catholic experience, but my most of my trauma, I would say, is from my evangelical experience. My Catholic experience was kind of all I ever knew. So it's really hard for me to differentiate where that begins, because I didn't know a life without that and I definitely do have some hard things from my childhood, being confused about different things because of religion or feeling unsure about certain things because of religion. And I would definitely say my Catholic experience was definitely high control, but mostly because of my, my parents. So, yeah, I went to Catholic school from first grade through 12th grade. I went to an all girls Catholic high school. So, yeah, that's where it begins.

03:37 - Sam (Host)

Right, and I mean you already have sort of mentioned high control, because often we think you know I only did three years in a Catholic primary school, but it was, it was a lot, it is, it is a lot and you know I will tell people that it involved. You know, I think we prayed like three or four times a day. We had weekly mass, we had religion twice a week and for people who didn't experience that they're like, well, that seems a little excessive and a little overkill. And so what was it like growing up? I guess in your home in particular, we think of Catholicism can be quite strict and rigid and things like that. What was that like?

04:28 - Claire (Guest)

It's very interesting because I think the reason I was drawn to evangelical church is because of my experience that I'm going to share about. Yeah, catholicism in our home was very it was like two different worlds. It was we had our church persona and how we presented as a family, and then we had our family at home. It was not the same at all, definitely didn't practice what was talked about in church. We didn't pray together, we didn't eat together, we didn't like. We didn't practice what was talked about in church.

05:06

We didn't pray together, we didn't eat together, we didn't like we didn't have like a family prayer time or meal time where we prayed or anything. Um, it was very much, it felt as a kid, as a way to get me to be good, if that makes sense. It was more for me than it was my parents, like my parents could act however they wanted, um, so it was this weird duality that I saw as a child and I think that's why I was drawn to more progressive at the time.

05:43

I thought progressive, realized, wasn't so much evangelical spaces because it was very all-encompassing in the in their life. So, yeah, it was very interesting. I mean, I was in Girl Scouts, um, and we would go to the content for dinners and purity culture was definitely a thing in the Catholic Church, which was definitely something that I my parents were very adamant about and had to go to talks about it, because you go to the talk, the parents don't talk to you about it. You go to the talk, the parents don't talk to you about it. You go to the talk. It's very interesting. And when I now my parents act very catholic in the sense that, like, they say the rosary at home and they do all these religious things that I never saw growing up in the home, it's very it's a very untraditional experience for a catholic family.

06:45 - Sam (Host)

I feel like, yeah, because our home life was not catholic in a sense yeah, and I, I understand, uh, I guess, why you would have seen evangelicalism as more progressive. Um, I also remember thinking, you know, the way that it was spoken about at school was that Catholicism was very works-based. You know you needed to do good and if you didn't do good you had to confess, and you know confession was also a regular occurrence. But all of a sudden I was presented with quote unquote a relationship and and a lifestyle and and so very, very different, almost like polar opposites. But still, once you're in in, um, not so progressive, yeah, um, what were some of the ways that growing up catholic and going to an all girls catholic school shaped the way you saw the world and the way that you saw yourself?

07:59 - Claire (Guest)

I would say there was a lot of fear of things that were different or not right according to what my parents thought or what I was taught in church. I definitely saw religion as a way to please my parents. Religion as a way to please my parents um, I definitely had that like good. I want to appear to my parents like that good catholic girl that does the right thing. Um, I like wore a purity ring on a necklace and like I sometimes even would like call my parents out for stuff that like they weren't doing in the home. Just because my home life was very volatile emotionally. My dad was an alcoholic and very verbally abusive, and so I often used the bible and Jesus's loving nature as a way to be like hey, you're not being like Jesus. Yeah, and my parents did not like that.

09:16 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, oh, I'm thinking I bet that went down like a lead balloon, like, yeah, I mean as a therapist I know most people who do suffer with addiction don't often like being called out on that in general, let alone being called out about it not just for the alcoholism but for the lack of Jesus-ness that was in in that person.

09:50 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, Not the best approach, but I was a kid, so yes, exactly yeah.

09:56 - Sam (Host)

You were a kid and you know you were also being um, probably heavily indoctrinated at school in terms of um, you know this is the right way to think and the right way to believe, and anything that is not falling into that bubble or that sphere um is other and and not okay Um yeah it.

10:21 - Claire (Guest)

it's very interesting because my where I went to Catholic school politically was very Democrat versus conservative and it's fascinating learning as an adult the influence of political evangelical nationalism even in the nineties and early two thousands had on my parents, even in the Catholic church. So my Catholic physical church was very progressive in the sense that like girls could be altar servers. Oh wow, people that didn't like that and like there were a lot of things politically that were influencing my parents that weren't necessarily things that they agreed with in the Catholic church they would often say the things that the Pope were doing were like not correct. So it was this weird influence politically that my, my parents had that really influenced a lot of what they talked to me about as well influenced a lot of what they talked to me about as well.

11:51 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, and all I can think is how confusing for for a young person, yes, wildly confusing.

11:56 - Claire (Guest)

And when I started going to a non-Catholic church, um, my parents didn't like it. But looking back, politically and theologically, they kind of aligned more with, with that mindset that was happening in those spaces. Um, but my parents are very much like, catholic is the one true way and it's the only thing, it's the right, it's correct.

12:28 - Sam (Host)

So yeah, so regardless of the political and theological leaning it was, the label of of catholic was really the the defining factor for that, yeah it.

12:42 - Claire (Guest)

For my parents. It really was about perception how we were perceived, how I was perceived by other people and, and in that sense, yeah, and I mean we often will talk about purity culture as part of the evangelical church.

13:00 - Sam (Host)

In what way is it similar and different in the Catholic Church? Because I would imagine it would be a little different.

13:08 - Claire (Guest)

I would say it's shockingly similar.

13:13 - Sam (Host)

Right.

13:14 - Claire (Guest)

There's this one speaker I'm blanking on his name but he is still traveling around to Catholic schools and he came to my school growing up and I remember his talk so vividly, like it was yesterday, and his whole thing is he starts off with his testimony and his it's very um Protestant and evangelical leaning and the nature of how he's going about it. But he is Catholic and he talks about how his wife like slept around and did all these things and then she started writing letters to her future husband and then he got the letters and he was the future husband and it was very much focused on the women, the girls in the room. Like this is what you need to do. This is what you don't need to do, because you need to be correct for the men in the room.

14:18

The one thing and I didn't experience this at my evangelical church was and I didn't experience this at my evangelical church was, I mean, the Catholic families at my church growing up were huge. I was an only child and that was very bizarre. Most a lot of the families had like between four and seven kids and there was a family that was at our church that had like 14 kids, so it was very much. No birth control, no very traditional um. But yeah, purity culture was shockingly similar in what I experienced and so what impact did that have on you personally?

15:05

oh, I mean, I took that very seriously out of fear. Um, I definitely said, would say that I feared, um, I had this fear of losing something, like it was out of my control, the whole concept of like you're giving a piece of yourself away. A few years ago I had this realization of like, no, I get to decide if I'm like, if I'm giving a piece of myself away by participating in any kind of sexual activity, and so there was very much the sense of like that kind of stuff is bad and out of my control, if that makes sense.

16:00 - Sam (Host)

and so, yeah, it definitely I went very excessive and rigid with it yeah, and so how did you go from an all-girls catholic school to an evangelical church?

16:24 - Claire (Guest)

yeah. So I actually chose the all-girls catholic school. I will put that disclaimer out. There it was. There were we.

16:34

I grew up in the Baltimore archdiocese in Baltimore, maryland, and there's tons of Catholic schools and I had gone to a Catholic middle and elementary school and I was trying to get away from everyone I knew and this was the one where, like nobody was going. So that's why I went there. I loved it. Once I got over my teenage annoyance of all girls, I thought it was a great experience all things considered. But when I I always push back, like on things in the Catholic church, like asking questions about things that didn't make sense, I remember the first time I really thought some of the rules were stupid or didn't make sense to me was we went to my father's best friend died by suicide and we went to his funeral and there was communion and it came our turn to get up and go. I was 13. I remember I stood up getting ready to go. My parents didn't stand up and I was like, are we? We're not getting communion? And they were like no, we don't. This isn't real communion. And I was like what do you mean? What do you mean? This isn't real, like in my my head. I was thinking this is your best friend's funeral and I was like I'm going. So I went because I was like this is communion, what are you doing? Like I didn't understand. And from then on I started questioning different rules that didn't didn't make sense to what I was reading and understanding to be Jesus or God in how I was interpreting it.

18:27

Um, so my mom said when I turned 18, I could stop going to church if I wanted to. So I did, and I started going to a Baptist youth group up the street from my house. I could walk there. So I walked there on Wednesday nights and it was way more welcoming than any Catholic Catholic youth thing I had attended. And so I was like, wow, this, the energy is nicer here. People seem to be more caring and interested and I desperately wanted community.

19:10

And I met some people there and they invited me to a non-denominational church and that's the first time I ever had encountered something like that and, of course, a young person. I'm thinking this is cool. There's like cool music. People are hanging out and having fun, like people want to be here. Um, so, yeah, that's how I got my introduction to evangelicalism. And then I went to college and I kind of stopped going to church and then I was still very much the good Christian girl. People knew me as the girl that always had her Bible and and stuff like that. Um, and then I met my husband and he was interning at the church that we both ended up working at and so, yeah, that's kind of how I got from this extreme to another extreme.

20:09 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's. It's interesting that you say you were searching for community, because I feel like what lands a lot of people in churches is just that you know deep desire that we all have for belonging. We just want to belong somewhere, we just want to feel seen, we want to feel like we are a part of something, and you know there are many that the church does not do well. But there is one thing that the church does do well and that tends to be community. Um, I mean, that comes with a caveat that you need to fit a certain mold, but when you do and when you are in um, that community is at times almost feels palpable, like you know, you are part of something bigger and greater than yourself, almost yeah.

21:10 - Claire (Guest)

I definitely would say, that is what drew me in.

21:13 - Sam (Host)

Yeah.

21:13 - Claire (Guest)

I always wanted community. I wanted people around in my life. I would say my family, like extended family, growing up had a lot of drama always all the time, and my parents were kind of antisocial. We didn't really have they didn't have friends that came over and we didn't have a social life, and so I always wanted community and it definitely kept me longer than I should have. Um, and I think that is why I said at the beginning, most of my trauma comes from my adult, chosen evangelical experience, because it is relational. Yeah, I definitely think there are things that shaped me and affected me as a young person. Um, I don't know that I carry those things as heavily as I do.

22:15 - Sam (Host)

The relational trauma, yeah, so you said that the church that became your home church, I'm assuming, was connected to your husband. Would you have landed in that church otherwise?

22:36 - Claire (Guest)

I don't know that I would have known about it. It was far from my college, it was about 45 minutes. He was from the area, so that's how he knew about it. I will say we broke up for a time and I still went. So it definitely became my church. And if we had broken up I probably still would have kept going because I had built relationships outside of him.

23:09 - Sam (Host)

So yeah, so tell me a little bit about this church.

23:16 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, it is. If anyone's's familiar, it's an arc church which is association of related churches. It is connected to church of the other churches uh, bayside in Florida Um, a lot of like bigger name mega church pastors in the United States created this network um for church planting and it it definitely has denominational influences. Some of the pastors all came from assemblies of God church, if I'm not mistaken. So while it was technically non-denominational, it definitely had denominational influences. But I loved it.

24:22

I felt welcomed as soon as I started going. People cared for me, people wanted to know about me, they wanted to spend time with me. They cared about how my husband and I dating at the time my boyfriend and I were doing. Um, they cared more about what I was doing in my life than my parents did really. Um. So I I really saw these people as my chosen family and I think one of the scariest things looking back now is that the reason I didn't realize it was high control or cult-like in nature is because I often told myself and my parents when they my parents often called it a cult to me and I would often say, well, I chose this, like I can leave whenever I want. Yeah, but I think that's a common misconception of like it's not high control or dangerous or culty if you can leave whenever you want. But that's not necessarily true. Yeah, so yeah, it was. I was there for five, six years, six years, yeah.

25:51 - Sam (Host)

Was the the Bible spoken about differently? Was you know the Bible spoken about differently? Was you know you know? I often make the distinguish between Catholicism and, I guess, a more mainstream Christianity, as, as you know, suddenly there is, you know, this person of Jesus that we are to have a relationship with. Um, so I'm wondering whether God and and the Bible was spoken about differently for you in this church?

26:16 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, it definitely was, when you said that phrase, a relationship with Jesus. That definitely drew me in because it was my Catholic experience God was very untouchable, or like you had to talk to a priest to communicate with God, or you had to go to church to be in the presence of God. You couldn't be in the presence of God in your home and it it just felt very disconnected. Um, and I really just wanted loving community and that's what it felt like Jesus was all about, and so it was definitely a different, totally different way to interact with the word of God, talk about it, read it and our pastor actually was also a former Catholic, so that definitely I related to them in that way.

27:24 - Sam (Host)

So yeah, Often I find that when people join a new church, particularly high control spaces, that initial period can feel and fall a little bit into what we call love bombing. Do you feel like that's what happened for you?

27:46 - Claire (Guest)

I do and I was thinking about this today. Actually, it's kind of a mindfuck, is like the only way I can describe it, because I think back and I think about these people now. I don't think they realize what they're doing. Yeah, I think it's a culture thing. I think it's normalized. I think they think this is how you build relationships, formalized. I think they think this is how you build relationships. Um, I think there is a level in leadership that you get to where they they know what they're doing, like whether they want to admit it or not. I think there is a level where they start to realize what they're doing. Um, but I think a lot of the staff, a lot of the high level volunteers, they really they care for people and they want to help people and they think that's what they're doing.

28:48

And I look back and I see I can so clearly see it happening. Clearly see it happening especially because of like as, as I got further in, I started to be a part of meetings and in rooms that I wasn't in when I first started attending, and it's a formula, it's a this is how you get people in, this is how you get them to stay. This is the things you say. This is the things you do and how you invite them. Say this, don't say this, and it was very unpersonalized, like unpersonable. When you look behind the curtain, they're doing this for everybody and this is how they get you.

29:31 - Sam (Host)

It felt very like bait and switch yeah, I mean it's often you know, the closer you get to the top of a church, the the more you see um church as a business and you know meetings like prayer meetings are strategy planning and you know, and marketing and all of the things that you would see in a normal business are happening under under different terminology and happening to you know further the kingdom of God. But realistically it's just a marketing plan. Yeah.

30:06 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, and I was my job at the church. I was in the communications department, whatever the heck that means. It's the marketing department. It's the marketing department. It's the marketing department. Yeah, I was the. It was a very small staff, so we had a communications pastor at the time and I was his other employee and we grew and by the time I left we had a couple other staff members, but I was his executive assistant essentially. Um so, one specific thing that I think back and I'm like, how did you not see this?

30:48

uh, I was the photography director in, in a sense, like I ran the photo team, and I was often told that I need to make sure I get angles to make sure it looks like a full room, and I was like at the time I was like, yeah, that makes sense. But now I'm like, but that's lying, and why does it even matter if it's full? It's just supposed to be about God, right? And so it just looking back and remembering those little things and being wanting to go back and shape myself.

31:29 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, a couple of things come to mind, which is, I find in a church there is a team for everything, and I think that that's a real, you know, interesting point, because as soon as you feel like you're a part of a team, there's it's again just going back to that sense of belonging and sense of being a part of something.

31:52

But it's interesting that you mentioned, I guess, the photography tactics, because we have noticed everyone will know the Hillsong Church and everything that's gone down with the Houstons, but their daughter, laura and her husband Peter Toggs, have recently started a new church, which Brian and Bobby are obviously very much behind. But we recently saw those photography tactics in their very first service, where you can very sort of clearly see that it's only like three rows of people but it is made to look like it's a whole room full, and so I think it's, you know, it's a really important thing to note because I think a lot of people are not aware that that's happening. Particularly if you are just a member of the church and not one of the inside crew, you are not necessarily aware that those sorts of things are happening.

32:56 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, we another example we moved to. We left that church. It was a horrible experience leaving and we went to another church, a mega church. Going to a new place that was doing the same things really opened my eyes because I hadn't built those relationships yet where I could kind of justify behaviors. Oh, you know, I, I just didn't have those relationships. So I was really seeing it for what it was.

33:31

And we my husband and I ended up being the lead volunteers for seating. I don't even really like I don't even know what to call it. Like we made sure that the first I think it was the first two rows were full of people that we knew would look engaged and that would raise their hands during worship, that we knew would look engaged and that would raise their hands during worship. And when I was like this is weird, yeah, and there's people that would come and want to sit up there, we would have to tell them no, if there was someone that was looking like too bored, like they would get moved, like, yeah, and this is like it's Elevation Church, like that was right. I'm like I'll just say it, I never worked there. I don't. I think yeah.

34:24

I don't know them anything, but um yeah, I was like this is so weird yeah and so, uh, what prompted you to leave the other church?

34:37

So I was really struggling with my mental health At the time. I didn't realize why, but my mental health was really really bad. One great thing about our old church is that they were paying for me to go and see a specialist an actual licensed counselor and they were also paying for my husband and I to see a licensed counselor um, not just a church counselor. Those two people together helped us leave, but that's another thing. My husband had felt a calling from God at the time is what he would how he would describe it that it was time for us to move on. He was struggling with his mental health. I was struggling with my mental health.

35:29

The church was growing in a direction that we just didn't necessarily agree with. That we just didn't necessarily agree with. We just didn't agree with some of the things that leadership was doing, what they were focusing on, we just didn't agree. But a lot of these people we were close with them and they were family, and so when we decided to leave, we went about it in the way that we thought we were supposed to.

35:58

Our pastor often talked about if you want to leave, come to me, we'll do it together. We don't want it to be weird. Come and tell me. And my husband and I were very naive in the sense that he said, come to him, he won't make it weird. So that's what we did. We did, we were like we're family.

36:16

I had lived with our lead pastor and his kids and his wife for almost a year, so I was very close with them. I was in their daughter's wedding um, very much family, chosen family vibes, and so I I didn't think it. We didn't think it was gonna be a thing. We we just thought we were going to be like hey, we've been praying. God's been telling us that we're supposed to move on. The first meeting that we had with our pastor, it was like a crash and burn. It did not go the way we thought. He sent us on a mandatory sabbatical. It was a week. He gave us a week off, but he called it a sabbatical. He gave us a week off much earned, might I say but he was like I don't feel like. God's told me that it's time for you to leave, so you need to go take this week off and pray about it. Meanwhile we're like we've been praying about it, but thanks for the week off, I guess. So we come back and we're like, yeah, no, we're still supposed to move on, and he was very adamant that God had not told him it was time for us to move on.

37:36

One of my husband's strengths and weaknesses is that he doesn't really take well to people telling him what to do. Um, and it saved us in this sense. It was like, yeah, I don't give a shit. Um, we're leaving. So it was very it. It was really hard for us, though, because we were confused. We were like you told us to come to you and we could have just left and not said anything. Honestly, um, but he uh, drew it out for about 10 months meetings, um, trying to coach us, trying to figure out why we were struggling, telling us it's because of our Sabbathing habits, that we weren't resting enough, we didn't know how to rest, that financially, we weren't budgeting well, that's why we didn't have any money, and trying to tell us we were doing all these things wrong. Um, I ended up having a breakdown and calling our lead pastor's wife and was like I feel trapped. And she was like you're not trapped, you can leave. And I, I don't think. When I left, no, nobody knew or even thought that we would be leaving the church as a whole. So when I quit my job, people were like, oh, she just quit, she's going to start her own business. This is exciting. They're still attending. So they still saw us as part of the family. So we were still treated very well.

39:14

Once and my husband decided that he was quitting and our lead pastor realized that we were leaving. We weren't allowed to tell anybody, we weren't allowed to talk about it, and our pastor, the whole time he was like saying that he's doing it for us because he doesn't, he doesn't want to find someone before we've left and have it be awkward. Mind you, it took him two years to find someone to replace us. So that was whatever. But, um, yeah, by the time it came for us to leave, my husband and I had figured out where we were going to go. Um, and we were like can we start talking to people about it? It's like two weeks before we're done and nobody knows yet. And our pastor kept blowing us off, blowing us off.

40:16

An email was sent out.

40:19

My husband loved his youth ministry Like he loved those students and, it's interesting, he was the pastor.

40:30

I was probably the more rigid person, religion wise, because I think, because of my Catholic upbringing, he has always been just caring about community.

40:44

That's all it ever was for him.

40:45

It wasn't.

40:47

He wasn't a very preachy person in the sense that he was trying to get students to do things that they didn't want to do or didn't feel comfortable doing.

40:55

He just wanted students to have a place to have fun and feel safe and welcomed, and so he really cared about those students. And he, the last time he spoke, he asked our pastor if he could tell his students himself like hey, I'm leaving, and he said no, and so nobody knew that that was his last time speaking and an email sent out that we didn't even know was going out, and so all of these people who trust in us found out via an email, and people are still mad at us to this day. I don't blame them for being mad. I would have been mad as a teen if I felt like I was connected to someone and I was told via email that they were leaving, but at the time we thought we were being honorable. We thought we were doing the right thing. We thought our pastor told us that this is what you're supposed to do, when really he was just trying to control the narrative and trying to make us look bad.

42:02

Yeah, and protect the reputation of the church. Oh yeah, he said that he didn't want people filling in the blanks and I'm like, okay, yeah, and the email that he sent out was so generic, it was they've decided, or that he made it sound like we got a job offer somewhere else, so that's why you were leaving but that's not why we were leaving.

42:24

Um, so yeah, it was. It was very the way they treated my husband and he had gone there longer than me and they, when I left my position, they threw me a party. I had a cake. Everybody came, the whole staff. It was great. I was like this is so kind when, when they realized we were actually leaving the church, they someone brought donuts to the weekly staff meeting. And the past, the past. Our lead pastor didn't even show up. His assistant stood up and told everyone that we were leaving and we were like. She was like oh, we have donuts.

43:10 - Sam (Host)

Oh good, Because that's supposed to make it better.

43:15 - Claire (Guest)

Glad we have donuts.

43:17 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I mean you know to stick with that belonging theme, which is that this is the moment that you realise that your belonging is transactional. Whilst ever you are doing what you can to further the church and to protect the church, then it's all well and good.

43:38

But as soon as you step out of that, um, you know we will say that we will help but we will manipulate you and control you instead and, you know, appear as though that just because he was the pastor that he somehow heard god differently and more accurately than you or your husband would, which is, in essence, the most condescending and patronising thing that you could do.

44:08 - Claire (Guest)

Yeah, yeah it is. And I remember when we had that meeting, our pastor even went as far as to say that my husband wasn't leading us. Well, because he wasn't hearing from God correctly. I just started crying in the me. I was so confused. I was so confused because I trusted this pastor and I trusted my husband. I was like what is going on? I was so confused and it a lot of the people definitely tried to keep in touch and tried to still have a relationship with us.

44:58

But we you can, we still have a relationship with us, but you can feel a shift when you're no longer inside, how people are treating you like you're no longer inside. This was transactional. This was very much because I was a staff member and you were getting something out of me, not because we had any sort of significant relationship. Um, so, yeah, I had a small group Bible study type thing that was made up of pastor's, wives, staff members, um, elders, and I remember after we left, I came back to visit and we all went out to dinner and they were asking questions like why did we leave? Like what happened?

45:47 - Sam (Host)

I was honest.

45:49 - Claire (Guest)

I was like we just didn't agree with some things. I was stressed and the whole time I made it about me. I was like I understand that lives have been changed for the better at this place. I understand that there's people that have a positive experience. That was not my experience. It was extremely toxic for me and horrible for my mental health, and I was not doing well and we needed to leave.

46:16

They did not like that. They told me that I should pray about that, that that is incorrect. And that was the moment when I realized that it wasn't about truth, it was about a narrative, it was about perception, because two things can be true. Like to say that everyone's experience in an organization is positive is just unrealistic. If you can't hold the negative and the positive, what are you doing? Yeah, you're just. You're just manipulating people and trying to to appear a certain way, and that's when I pretty much stopped talking to certain people or stopped trying to respond to their bids for connection, which felt like manipulation at that point. Um, let's get coffee, let's hear about what God's doing in your life no, oh, the passive aggressiveness of the let's get coffee turn.

47:23 - Sam (Host)

Accountability chat turn. You know, this is what I'm hearing from God about your life, that you must take on board. And so you landed at Elevation Church. And so how long were you there for?

47:45 - Claire (Guest)

So that was an interesting process. My husband they so my husband had put his resume out in church network hiring networks. They actually reached out to him. He wasn't necessarily an Elevation fan boy or anything um, he didn't really listen to Stephen Furtick, uh but he wanted a job and they reached out to him and so we interviewed. The interview process was an entire weekend. It was the weirdest thing I've probably ever experienced in my entire life. Um, I'll I'll just share a little bit about that. It's kind of weird and crazy, but they did this thing called well.

48:28

They did two specific things that were bizarre to me. One was the hot seat and the campus that we were interviewing at. It was us on one side of the table and I had to be there because I was the wife. I'm not interviewing for a job, but I had to be there. We were on one side of the table and everyone on this, on staff at that church on campus, was on the other, and it was called the hot seat because they were allowed to ask us any question we wanted and we had to answer. Oh, whoa, I was like like do I have to answer, though? And the questions they were asking were very invasive, the one I remember I was like, what are you trying to do here? They asked one a time where my husband preached about something that he wasn't practicing, and I was like, oh wow. They would ask, like, what's your favorite curse word? When's the last time have you been like? And they were like, and you have to answer. And I'm like, okay, I have to answer, right, all right, anyway. Oh my, it was so weird. And then they did this thing where they went around in a circle. It was like speed dating.

49:51

We stayed at the table and different staff members moved and they had 60 seconds to ask us any question. And I'm neurodivergent. I, if that's I looked over your questions because, like, I need time to like think about it first. I'm not very good at like just off the cuff saying stuff. Um, I definitely take time to process things while I'm talking. And they would ask you a question and you had 60 seconds to answer and I remember being like, yeah, pass, go around, I'm gonna think about it, come back. And they were like you can't do that. I was like, well, I am go around, I'm not, I can't answer, I'm processing.

50:42

It was so bizarre, um, but I was trying to support my husband and he really felt like he wanted to be a part of this organization. So we moved here because, even though they didn't offer him a job through that interview process, they said if you move here, there would be a lot of campuses fighting over hiring you. So a roundabout way of if you move here, it'll show us that you're interested and we might have a job for you. So my husband worked as an intern for free for them for three months. We lived off of our savings that we had um after we had sold our house or our condo in Florida and he didn't work for three months. And three months came up and he was like, okay, hey, do I have a job? And they were like you're never going to get a job here, stop trying. And so my experience at Elevation was very much to support my husband, was very much to support my husband.

52:08

Yeah, I tried to volunteer but almost immediately felt transactional. They found out I was a photographer and they wanted me to photograph. I was very clear about my boundaries. Hey, I can do day, do not ask me to do any other day. This is the day that I'm available. It was a weeknight service. They consistently asked me to do weekends After I said, hey, stop asking me, I'm not going to do it on the week.

52:36

Like I was very strict about my involvement and there was a moment when I, when my husband and I were walking in and someone saw me with my camera and I'm I had had a business. I'm a professional photographer, so I knew what I was doing. I was coming in, they didn't have to teach me anything. I was taking real like good photos and they were using them.

53:01

Um, and the guy who was my report saw me and he was like, oh yay, we're actually gonna get good pictures tonight. And he didn't even address my husband and we're walking in and under his breath he was like they don't even care that I'm here, they just care that you're here. And I was like that night I texted the guy and I was like I'm done, I'm not, I'm not volunteering anymore, like this is because I said to my husband like they don't care about me, they care about my photos, they just want my good photos. They don't like I didn't even say anything to that. I was like like you don't actually care that I'm here, you want my pictures and I I feel awful for any time that I've made someone feel that way at our old church of like, because I was over volunteers, I I led volunteer teams and I had a boss that was a tyrant about getting people to serve and getting people, and so I I know without a doubt I probably made somebody feel that way.

54:15

Um, they probably just quietly walked away and didn't say anything but, it's like it's awful to feel like it's just your skills or your time that's wanted, not you as a human being. Yeah, so that whole experience was a train wreck.

54:35 - Sam (Host)

I mean they're not. It's like they're not even hiding the control factor of high control, like it's on full display.

54:47 - Claire (Guest)

And I think back and I know there's people that are probably thinking why did you even go there? And I think at the time we were still drinking the Kool-Aid of like it's okay for ministry to be like this, this is normal, it's just how it is. Like it's rough, it's hard. You just have to sacrifice your time and your energy and it's not always easy, it's not always fun. One of the other.

55:20

I'm laughing because one of the other moments where I was like what are we doing? I had just started volunteering and I was in the back backs, backstage, and one of their main worship leaders, who was blonde, was hiding back there with someone else and I was like I was like what are you guys doing? You need something. They're like we're hiding from the people and I was like what are we doing? What are we doing? Like you're clearly exhausted, you're back here hiding, like go home and rest, like you. Like that's not what church should feel, like that you have to hide and, like you know, be exhausted and just there like on empty. You know what I mean and so I mean don't get me wrong, I I understand hiding from people. I'm very introverted, so I'm like go, go home and rest. What are you doing?

56:21 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think it. It comes back to that self-sacrifice that gets pushed so often that you know um, you know you deny yourself because you are doing, you know the work of God and you are furthering the kingdom of God and whatever language you know, your church used, but essentially it's not about you Um, and you put aside however you are feeling because that is not relevant anymore. Um, all that is relevant is that you make sure that you play your part. Essentially, it's that production factor, particularly in mega churches where you know it's not a little, you know church of a hundred people, like you know.

57:19

For those who are in Australia who have not heard of Elevation Church, it is like an American version of Hillsong. Essentially, um, they are broadcasting Um. It is not a small, humble little church on the corner of your block, um, and it's a production um, in the same way that Hillsong is a production um. And so what? How did all of that impact? Where your current sense of spirituality and faith and the divine and God and all of that? Where is that now?

57:56 - Claire (Guest)

volunteered for a while, but: 2020

58:40

Um, I hate to say that I'm thankful for that offering to an extent. Um, it was just a hot. It was like a hard cut off of, like ripping a band-aid off of, like this, you don't have access to this anymore. Um, just because I was never someone that really cared about watching online, I wasn't there, I wasn't there. Um, and so, yeah, we just stopped going to church and we got our weekends back and it was amazing. I feel like my. The whole time my husband and I had been together. We had never really had weekends that felt restful, that felt enjoyable, that felt free, and it was a great feeling.

59:37

I would say it was a slow off ramp for me with Christianity. I would still say I'm a spiritual person. I think not being in a church atmosphere allowed me space mentally to start asking questions, asking myself questions what do I believe? What don't I believe, what? How do I interpret these texts? What do I think? And I think for me, because my whole life I didn't really have a choice. Choice like this is just what I was told to believe, I would say about a year and a half ago. I pretty much like hit reset on everything, everything. So I'm figuring out what I, what sexuality is, what religion is, what God like. I just hit factory reset of like. I'm going to figure out the settings that I want, not what someone has set for me.

:: 00:57

So and you are doing that relatively publicly, so what is that like?

:: 01:04

Yeah, yeah, I I a lot of people, I think, would maybe think that sharing openly is unhealthy, but it's been really healing for me to have a space where I can say what I think and not worry about what others are going to say, worry that I'm wrong, worry that I'm sinning, worry that I'm going to go to hell for saying something sacrilegious or whatever something sacrilegious or whatever.

:: 01:48

I think it's been a great exercise for me to just be myself in a relatively safe environment as in, like, people can't physically access me, if that makes sense, and I can easily block people and it's been really helpful for me to share and get it all out in the open and not be worried about being wrong or incorrect or dishonoring or disrespectful. There have been times where I've had to take a break because of how triggering it is. Um, the whole time I have been well, most of the time I've been publicly sharing online. I have been working with a therapist on a regular basis, which I think is is important, um, if you're going to do something like this, having someone to talk to about it, whether it's a therapist or a friend or a trusted relative um, because people have opinions.

:: 02:54

So yeah, yeah, I mean the words that come to mind as you talk about what it was like for you is almost freeing and empowering to be able to do that in a space where you know other people can connect with you, when you are sort of building your own little corner of community. I mean, that's what I love Instagram is that, you know, for all its faults, you get the opportunity to build, I guess, a little corner of community of people who are also on a similar path in terms of, you know, finding themselves and deconstructing and healing their religious trauma and all of that sort of thing. So, yeah, I feel I feel lucky to be in your corner of community also.

:: 03:40

So yeah, I feel lucky to be in your corner of community also. Yeah, it is, it's really. I always say that the internet is neutral. It's what you do with it. That can be good or bad, and I love the internet. I love all the people that I've met. I've met some incredible people all over the world, and it really is. I'm thankful to live in a time where I can go and find someone that is asking the same questions or think so. I don't feel completely insane, because there were times in our world where, if you were the one saying these things, you were considered crazy or a witch or whatever.

:: 04:29

And now you're able to find people and I mean, I have a lot of opinions on how the Internet helps marginalized groups like find connection and, yeah, I love the internet absolutely, and and I think this is a nice transition into what has been my final question to everybody, which is what would you say to somebody who is deep in their deconstruction?

:: 04:59

oh, that's a really good question. I think don't be afraid to question god. I remember when I was still very much christian in the sense that I had a Christian-based devotional practice, a scripture-based habits of reading the Bible and praying on scripture and stuff. And I think being able to ask a higher being, whatever you think it is, those hard questions is important and it's okay to doubt. And if god is really all knowing and all loving, he can handle your doubts. So don't be afraid to doubt. And just what if it's not true?

:: 05:59

I don't know what you know who knows yeah, I love that. Yeah, be curious yeah yeah, amazing. Thank you so much for joining me yeah, thanks for having me.

:: 06:14

I know sometimes I can ramble, so hopefully yeah, no, I think, um, I think a lot of people will relate to, to that part of your story of belonging to transactional belonging, because I think it is um extremely common for a lot of people who, um, whether they have reconstructed, deconstructed, left church, anywhere in between, I think there is often that feeling of transactional belonging. So I think a lot of people will relate to that part of your story. Yeah, yeah. So thank you yeah, thank you.

:: 06:54

Thanks for asking me and I hope I maybe get to meet people through this podcast who are listening. Subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.