The Ex-Mormon Stripper

Sam: 00:00:18

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded, and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there, and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs to that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced, and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the Surface. Welcome. Elena, thanks for joining me.

Elayna: 00:01:42

Hi. Thanks for having me.

Sam: 00:01:44

I am super excited about this episode because I found you and I. You're probably the only person that. I saw your Instagram and I immediately messaged you and I was like, I need this person on the podcast.

And I mean, it's probably.

It's probably going to be no surprise because I suspect it will probably be in the episode title, but I'm going to go into a spoiler because usually I don't, but you have the coolest, what I would call pipeline or trajectory, which is from ex Mormon to stripper. And I just think it's the. The best. So I'm so excited.

Elayna: 00:02:26

I love that. I love. I love that that got your attention.

And I was on, honestly, on the fence about making that post, and then I was just like, I'm just gonna do it.

Sam: 00:02:36

No, it's so good. I love it. People are already obviously going to notice the accent difference. So for some context, where in the world are you at the moment?

Elayna: 00:02:47

I am in the United States, on the West Coast.

Sam: 00:02:50

Amazing.

Elayna: 00:02:51

I'm in Oregon. I don't mind sharing where I'm at, which is the. I love that you had the.

The little thing in your email of you want to pay attention and honor the land that this was traditionally on. So I looked up the tribe and there's A few different tribes. There was the Umpqua and the. I'm probably not pronouncing this right. The.

I'm going to look at this Sea Slaw, Coquille tribe, and then there's also the. The Confederated Tribes of the Grand Round. So I think that sums it up. And so, yeah, I just want to honor. Amazing honor.

Where they were, you know, who the land belonged to. Yes, to.

Sam: 00:03:34

Yeah. I think even for myself, I'm not always super proficient at pronouncing indigenous lands, but intention matters. And. And I think that that's the.

So beautiful.

I feel like I'm doing the equivalent of, like, I'm being in therapist mode for a moment, which is you are in the US and every US Person I'm recording with at the moment, I'm doing what I would call a welfare check. So how are you doing over there? Because it's a little batshit crazy.

Elayna: 00:04:08

Oh, my God. I'm hanging in there. Personally, I want to do more to. To try and fix things, because it is pretty batshit crazy right now.

And I've been to a lot of protests, and I've been going to protests for, like, the last 10 years.

Sam: 00:04:32

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:04:32

And so this, like, doing this with you and posting on my Instagram and just raising awareness of this subject, that's kind of my own personal way of, like, protesting.

Like, you know, I can go out there and scream and rant, and I actually have permanent lung damage from the police spraying tear gas on peaceful protesters. So, like, I mean, I still will go. Do I do that? I'm not going to let that deter me. But. Yeah, but I.

I feel like a lot of times people don't listen, and they. They see that, and they just are like, oh, they're acting crazy, but they might listen to my Instagram reels or my YouTube or whatever, you know?

So I feel like this is a different way of reaching the audience that needs to be reached.

Sam: 00:05:24

Yeah. Different form of resistance. Hey. Yeah. Yeah.

Elayna: 00:05:29

So this is my own personal way of resisting, but, yeah, I'm doing all right. I have a badass therapist. You've probably heard of her after Marlene Winnell.

Sam: 00:05:40

Yes. She's pretty famous in our neck of the woods in terms of religious trauma, so.

Elayna: 00:05:46

So I work with her, so she's keeping me grounded. And for those who don't know, she coined the term religious comma syndrome. Yes. I'm glad to hear that she's famous. She needs. Yeah.

Sam: 00:06:00

Well, I mean, in the therapist world, in terms of religious trauma, it's a Pretty not super well known space. It's not spoken about a whole lot.

And I think Marlene's book Leaving the Fold was probably one of the first real pieces of literature that sort of spoke about this type of trauma. And so, yeah, I mean, in the terms of like religious trauma therapist world, we. She's famous. To us. Anyway. Yes. Okay.

I like to start these episodes with a super broad, vague question. And I do that so that it's very intentional anyway, so I like to see where it goes. So where does your story start?

Elayna: 00:06:47

Oh my goodness. I guess when I was born. So I was born Mormon and I was born as a fifth generation Mormon on my mom's side in Texas. And my dad is a convert.

So fifth generation from my mom's side and then convert. But both my parents were Mormon. They still are. And I was raised in the church in this podunk little town. Yeah, nowhere. It's pretty isolated.

And I was told that it was the truth, the one and only truth, you know, and when you're a child growing up and you're told that the sky is blue, you believe that the sky is blue. Right. Because all the adults. And it's not just my parents who were saying this, it was my whole community, you know, I didn't really. I.

I compare the community I grew up in as like being one step away from having a wall around it. Yeah, we didn't have a wall, but we didn't really interact with non members unless we were trying to convert them, so.

And that was a pretty quick way to lose friends. Yeah.

Sam: 00:08:08

It also is a. It's not a great way to make friends either. And I mean, I know that as a woman you are not supposed to make friends with non Mormons anyway, but.

Elayna: 00:08:21

For you to convert them.

Sam: 00:08:22

Yes, exactly. Yeah. I mean, what was that like for like the little version of yourself?

Just like wanting to be a kid but not being able to in a normal development way. Like, what was it like for you?

Elayna: 00:08:39

It was tough. I remember being pretty young.

I was homeschooled for a bit too because my parents were afraid that public school was going to corrupt us if we were exposed to the world. But we had a homeschool group, but we were the only Mormons that were part of this group.

And I remember making friends with this other little girl who was Baptist and, and I was pretty young. I want to say I was like 8 or 9 and like feeling like I wasn't supposed to really be friends with her because she wasn't Mormon.

But I, I was still able to go hang out with her at her house. But then I shared the gospel with her and then was never invited back. And so I was pretty lonely. I was a very, very lonely child.

We didn't have neighbors within walking distance and yeah, I was bored a lot and.

Sam: 00:09:35

Yeah, what were you taught about the world? Because I mean most of the time will now at the moment, I guess not all the time.

But at the moment there is obviously a lot of conversation around like the Mormon Church being a cult or at least displaying cult like dynamics and things like that. So what were you taugh about the world?

Elayna: 00:09:57

So I want to respond to that really fast. Dr. Marlene Whel's definition of a cult is mind control. So I would say that the Mormon Church is 100% a cult.

Sam: 00:10:08

Yeah, I would agree. I was probably being palatable there for a moment.

Elayna: 00:10:13

I know a lot of people don't want to hear that. They want to think that a cult is this weird little community that has like maybe 200 people and they're out in the middle of nowhere.

And no one wants to think that a cult could be as big as the Mormon Church, you know, on a global scale.

But what I was taught about the world was that it was evil and wicked and dangerous and I don't need to venture outside of my Mormon community or I'll get eaten alive and destroyed. And so yeah, it was a lot of fear about going out into the world.

Sam: 00:10:50

Yeah. How did, how did that impact?

I guess just like your view of yourself and who you thought you were growing up and particularly sort of going into I guess teenage years in that sort of identity forming period about who you were.

Elayna: 00:11:08

So I, oh goodness, that's a loaded question. I thought. I, so I 100 believed the church.

I thought it really was, you know, I know some people grow up and they're like, they never buy it from day one. But I bought into it. And so I thought that it, I was really lucky to be born into the true church, the one and only true church.

And I thought that I had been like, we were told that we were like one of the most valiant spirits up in heaven, that there had been a war in heaven.

And the people who were born into the church in the last days, because they think this is the last days before the apocalypse, we fought the hardest and we were the most obedient to God and everything. And so I thought that's like who I was. You know, if you'd asked me back then, who are you? I would have said I'm Mormon.

Like that that was my identity, you know, and everything else was kind of secondary to being a Mormon. And then as I started getting into teenage years, I was not taught anything about my body developing.

Like when my period started, I didn't know what was happening.

Sam: 00:12:27

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:12:27

And I was scared. And for some reason I thought I was going to get in trouble.

Sam: 00:12:31

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:12:32

And I went like this whole day of like not saying anything and just having to change clothes all day, like every hour. And then I finally asked like, what's going on? And.

And then as I started having sexual urges, I really thought that something was very, very wrong with me. And I was absolutely terrified. I thought I was some kind of weird pervert, I was some kind of freak.

And so the only sex ed that I had was don't have sex before marriage.

Sam: 00:13:07

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:13:07

I'm like, that was it. But I didn't even know what sex was. I knew it was something that you do without clothes, but like, I didn't understand the logistics of it.

And so, and then they were, they would talk about, you know, don't watch pornography. Pornography is a sin. They would say that sexual sin is a sin next to murder, of like, that's how serious it is.

So if you have sex outside of marriage, then you're one step away from a murderer. So I guess if you have sex before your wedding night, one day before you get married, you're a sinner. But if it's one day after, then you're fine.

Yeah. Doesn't, doesn't make sense. And I wasn't doing any of that.

But I would have impure thoughts, you know, which I now know are just normal, healthy teenager thoughts.

Sam: 00:14:03

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:14:04

And I, Yeah, I really thought that I was going to hell and I would. Or the Mormon version of hell, they, they kind of have their own little words. They call it like the, what is it? Telestial kingdom and darkness.

And so they believe in hell, but their own version of it. But yeah, I say just for context because Mormons get very wordy. I get tired of using their stupid lingo.

Sam: 00:14:32

Yeah. Yes, it's, it's, it's a different kind of language. And it's all like the same thing, but it's just different words.

Which again, like, is like, if you read Stephen Hassan's book around cult, mind control is also an aspect of that, but in terms of like creating your own language specific to your belief.

So I want to get into the conversation around purity culture, but I want to ask something before because I really like to ask this quite early on, which is growing up in this space as a young person, who was God to you?

Elayna: 00:15:15

God was like, so he was my heavenly father, like a parent figure. So Mormons believe that God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings. So Jesus was like my brother.

So the Mormons worship all three of them. Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost.

And so Heavenly Father was like at the top, you know, but then Jesus is like right next to him, and then there's the Holy Ghost who like whispers to you or something. It's kind of confusing. And yeah, he was like my, like my best friend might get a little emotional here. Yeah, I would pray.

So we would pray to Heavenly Father, but then it was like Heavenly Father could also talk to Jesus for us or we could talk to Jesus. And so, you know, anytime I had an issue with anything, the go to person that I would talk to was God.

Sam: 00:16:21

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:16:22

You know, I thought it was a very one sided conversation. He never actually answered back.

Sam: 00:16:28

Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest pain points for a lot of people with religious trauma that doesn't get talked about is actually grieving that relationship with whatever divine figure it is based on whatever religion you've come from.

But if at the time, and you know, I know for myself and for a lot of the people that I've connected with and that have been on this podcast, that relationship with the divine was very deeply personal and important. And there is grief around that when you lose that or when you realize that perhaps maybe that wasn't what you originally thought it was. So.

Yeah, it's.

Which, I mean, that's part of the reason why I like to ask it at the beginning, because usually there is a trajectory and that relationship changes or dissolves, perhaps. And so.

Elayna: 00:17:22

Yeah, but I'm glad you pointed that out because something that was frustrating for me after I left was how a lot of people didn't understand why I was sad. And they're like, well, if you're sad, why don't you go back? And it's not that simple, you know? Yeah. And. Or they would be like, you know, why?

Why can't you be happy that you're out, like you're free now? And they don't understand that there's a grieving process that you go through when you're a true believer. Like that.

Sam: 00:17:53

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:17:54

It is like losing a friend. And then on top of it, I. I not only lost my imaginary friends, I lost my whole Mormon community too.

Sam: 00:18:04

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I feel like we're, we're alluding to Future things, which is good. I love the.

I like random biblical terms in non biblical ways of like we're foreshadowing things that are going to happen.

But I want to talk more about what purity culture was like for you growing up, because I know that that's a big aspect of what you have sort of flipped on its head and learned to reclaim for yourself, which I love.

But I think that there is this, and I've done a few episodes on purity culture, so people sort of know now, but there is this really like unrealistic and unhelpful notion. Purity culture is just don't have sex before you get married.

But it's so much bigger than that and it's just like deeply rooted in shame and patriarchy and control of women's bodies. And so I'm curious what that was like for you as a young woman growing up.

Elayna: 00:19:06

It was very controlling. Where do I even start? Yeah, the, the no sex before marriage, but it was also no thoughts of sex before marriage.

So I, they would have a lot of church lessons about controlling your, your impure thoughts. And even having an impure thought is a sin. And by impure thought they just mean again, healthy bodily urges.

So, you know, if you're, if you look at a cute guy or a cute girl and you're like, oh, hey, then that's you sinning.

Sam: 00:19:46

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:19:46

Which such a contradiction because you're supposed to get married as soon as possible but don't have any of these impure thoughts, you know?

Sam: 00:19:56

Yeah, it's a lose, lose situation for you.

Elayna: 00:20:00

So I was really scared of myself. I was scared of my own brain. I was terrified of my own body. I. It seemed like you were just kind of given this body to be a temptation zone.

It's just constantly trying to tempt you. You're not supposed to touch it, you're not supposed to look at it. You're not supposed to have any feelings whatsoever.

You just kind of stay up here in your brain and you ignore the rest of this. But even your brain isn't really a safe zone because it might start thinking. And I'm a very creative and imaginative person.

So I, I have a really vivid imagination and so I was really scared of these images in my head. And I would pray and, you know, try to repent. And then. And they taught us that it was an addiction.

Sam: 00:20:51

Right.

Elayna: 00:20:51

And you know what's frustrating is some people genuinely have a sex addiction. And I, I think it gets to that point whenever it becomes harmful to your life, you're not doing Anything else?

You're missing work, you're not paying your bills, you're not socializing because you're just doing this one thing. And. And that could be anything. That happens with gambling, that happens with meditating.

Some people get addicted to meditating, you know, but they were taking a. A healthy behavior and saying that it's this addiction and you need addiction recovery. So. Yeah.

And just made me really scared of myself and not able to trust myself. And then we were also. It's not just the don't have sex. It's. You're supposed to be very modest.

So, like, the way you dress and the way you wear your hair. We weren't allowed to have double ear piercings. We weren't allowed to have nose piercing. I have a little nose piercing now. You can see it.

But I'm very proud of it. No tattoos, you know, and even having, like, black nails was a little like, oh, you know, that's too loud. We weren't allowed to show our shoulders.

Joke and call it porn shoulders.

Sam: 00:22:12

Oh, my goodness.

Elayna: 00:22:14

But it. I mean, it wasn't even a joke because, yeah, was to show your shoulders. You can't show your midriff. No cleavage, no short shorts, you know.

And then we would be told, if you are showing those things, you turn into porn for the boys, and it's going to lead them into temptation and they're gonna sin and it's gonna be your fault. But, you know, they never said how. What if the boys dressed immodestly? And it. Because they assume that girls don't masturbate.

Sam: 00:22:47

Well, girls just don't have desire in general. Like, sexual desire. Like, you are just a vessel for male desire.

Elayna: 00:22:57

So I was really confused, and no one was talking to me about this. And I didn't even know the word masturbate until I was 17.

And it was from a Mormon therapist who I was talking to because I was so scared of what was going on. And I wanted to find out, like, is what I'm doing sinning? Or is this. Like, is this okay? Because I wasn't having sex. I wasn't watching porn. And.

And it was like once every two weeks. It wasn't even. And. And she said, because I talked to the bishop first. Sorry, I'm kind of all over the place in there. Too much, then I can stop.

But I told the bishop first, because we were told to, if we had anything that we were concerned about, to just go talk to the bishop. And so I went and I asked the bishop, like, is this a sin? Is it Not. And I got really lucky that he was a really good guy.

He actually ended up leaving the church shortly thereafter. And I think it's because he had heard all of these stories from the youth.

But the Mormon Church has had a big problem and they're getting sued because a lot of the men that were put into the leadership positions were not good people and they didn't do background checks or anything like that. And you're told to just go in there as a minor or in this room alone with this old man and tell him about what you're doing in your alone time.

Yeah, it's a disgusting practice. It's absolutely disgusting. And then they want to sit there on their moral high horse.

So I, I had talked to the bishop and then he said he didn't feel qualified and that I needed to go talk to this female therapist, which good for him. And she. How I found out the word masturbate was from her saying, the bishop told me, you've been. And she like lowered her voice. Masturbating.

And I said, what is that?

Sam: 00:24:55

And she can whisper it.

Elayna: 00:24:58

She goes, how can you be doing it if you don't know what it is? And that just shows her level of sex ed. Yeah. How can you be doing this if you don't know what it is?

I was like, why don't you tell me and then I'll tell you if I'm doing it or not. She lowers HER VOICE Skin. It's arousing yourself sexually.

And I just felt like this like stone like dropped into my stomach and I felt like the scum of the earth and I just, I felt like I was going to Mormon hell and I was some kind of weird pervert and I couldn't.

Sam: 00:25:44

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:25:45

So I get flustered talking about.

Sam: 00:25:48

Yeah, I mean it, it just like is the perfect example of how shame based purity culture is in terms of. It's not that you even like did something wrong in air quotes, but that you became wrong somehow. Like you are wrong now.

It's like, I guess that shift between guilt and shame and purity culture has been both aspects. But typically when we, you know, quote unquote do something wrong in their eyes, it's not about the action. It's just now you are a really human.

Which messes people up.

Elayna: 00:26:27

Yeah, it did. It messed me up a lot. And I had really severe depression and anxiety all through my teenage years.

And I was going to therapy and they couldn't figure me out. They. Yeah, they kept passing me along to the next therapist because they'd Be like, you're too complicated. I can't figure you out. Go see so and so.

And because they didn't understand the religion side of things. And, yeah, I was. I was really messed up as a. As a teen, and I was going from.

Sam: 00:26:59

Were you going from Mormon therapist to Mormon therapist?

Elayna: 00:27:02

I was at first. And then I think my parents got kind of frustrated with the Mormon therapists because we had to go really far out of our way to see them.

We had to drive, like, two hours one way, sometimes specific Mormon therapist to just have them be like, we don't know what's happening with you. You should be good, you know? So then they started taking me to secular therapists who would hear, your parents are still together.

You've lived in the same house, your life, you go to church every Sunday. What's the issue?

Sam: 00:27:37

Yeah, yeah, it's really.

Even now, you know, I still, unfortunately, have people land in my room or in, like, my office who just have been hurt by practitioners and therapists and things like that, because there is just this really harmful and unhelpful notion that, oh, well, like, religion is good. Like, it's comforting. It's a really beautiful. And yes, it can be all of those things, but it can also be incredibly harmful for people.

And therapists are not always great at being able to understand that.

Actually, maybe this thing or this system that you have been raised in is actually the problem in terms of why you are feeling and experiencing a lot of what you're experiencing. Yeah. What was it like to be continually dismissed and unheard and just probably, I suspect, made to be the problem during that period of time?

Elayna: 00:28:46

You just validated me so much. It was so frustrating. Yeah, it was so frustrating, and it was confusing, and it kind of.

It kept feeling like it was being turned around on me, that I was just being a spoiled brat and there was nothing wrong with me. And I would have pills thrown at me, and they would work for, you know, like, six months or a year, and then they would stop working.

Because when you're in an environment like that, it doesn't matter what magical pills you're being given, you know, you're still going to church every Sunday. And when I was in high school, it was church every day, first thing in the morning, sometimes two or three days, two or three times a day.

You know, it's just church just constantly. So when you're getting this regular poisonous dose, it doesn't matter what antidepressants you're taking. And so, yeah, it felt like I was just.

I was the problem. I was just being a brat. I was being dramatic. I needed to suck it up.

Sam: 00:29:49

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:29:50

I needed to be grateful for what I had.

Sam: 00:29:53

Yeah.

I mean, and that's heartbreaking for anybody to be going through, but particularly for a teenager to be going through and not just like, not understanding anything other than the little bubble of the world that you were in is like. Is heartbreaking.

Elayna: 00:30:13

Yeah, yeah. Is. That's why I'm so, like, passionate about this subject and raising awareness about it now.

Because so many people don't understand how harmful religion is.

Sam: 00:30:25

Yeah, absolutely. How long were you a part of the Mormon church?

Elayna: 00:30:31

Until I was 26.

Sam: 00:30:33

Okay.

Elayna: 00:30:34

26 years.

Sam: 00:30:36

Yeah. Okay. So I'm thinking, like, from my knowledge, 26.

In typical Mormon fashion, you should have been married with at least a baby or some on the way, I imagine. And I'm assuming that trajectory didn't happen. So what was that like? Because you're not only not doing what you were supposed to be doing, but. Yeah.

Like, what was that period of time like?

Elayna: 00:31:06

Feel like, I need some tequila. I'll have some afterwards. I did get married.

Sam: 00:31:17

All right.

Elayna: 00:31:18

But I did not have babies. And I am so, so, so grateful.

Sam: 00:31:23

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:31:24

That humans are okay with birth control. So. Yeah. There was a older guy who was a co worker of mine. I was working at a. A horse stables at the time. Like, dream job, working with horses.

And he was not a Mormon. And I was so naive. I met him when I was 19 and my parents had not wanted me to move off and get my own apartment and get a job.

They wanted me to stay in that little community and find there and my third cousins, honestly, stay in the bubble. Stay in the little bubble and get married and have babies and. But that's not what I wanted. I. I actually wanted to be a world famous author.

And so I don't know why I had to move to. To do that, but I just, I didn't want that.

I was pretty independent and so I had my own apartment and I got a job and was working there, and this older co worker just started hitting on me. And I did. I didn't understand boundaries and consent and how to set them. And I was. I was pretty lonely. And he was like, you want to be friends?

And I thought friends actually meant friends. And then he started putting moves on me. And I'll be honest, I'd never been kissed and I was pretty bummed about that.

And I wanted to be kissed, and it was not a very good kiss. It was pretty gross, actually. You know, I. I Would say, no, I don't want this and he would do things anyway.

And then it kind of escalated and I told him I didn't want to see him anymore. And he, this is the type of guy he was.

He would show up at my apartment late at night crying and saying that if he didn't get to see me, he was going to kill himself.

Sam: 00:33:34

Right.

Elayna: 00:33:34

And my Mormon training would kick in of you're responsible for saving everyone.

There were all these lessons of like, if someone was having a bad day and they were going to kill themselves and you didn't do something to change their day, then that's on you. So, so much pressure to save everyone, to always be giving, to always be generous, to, you know, give the shirt off your back kind of thing.

And so, so that would kick in.

Not only did I not have skills to stand up for myself, I had this training, this grooming of you have to save everyone and always be nice and everything. So it was just a disaster. It was a total disaster.

And I ended up marrying him because I was like, we can't have sex until marriage and I can only marry a Mormon. And he's like, well, I'll join the church. I'll marry you.

Sam: 00:34:32

Right, okay.

Elayna: 00:34:34

And what's so funny is everyone hated him. And you know, like everyone was clued in that he was a predator. And I remember my brother in law actually saying he's a predator.

And here's how you find out. If he's not, invite him to church. And if he's not a predator then he'll go to church. If he is, then he won't. Sorry, you don't apologize.

Sam: 00:34:59

My reaction to that probably says, screams everything, which is that that's the most ironic thing ever.

Elayna: 00:35:06

Right?

This is what everyone believed that like somehow going to church is like the, the standard, like there's, you can't possibly enter, there's like some kind of force field or something. If you're a bad person, you can't go into the church.

Sam: 00:35:25

Yeah, it's like that I grew up with, my dad used to say things like, like he was not a person of faith, that if he had, if he walked into a church it would cave in. Right. Like it's like that sort of mentality.

But the fact that like they think that churches are like predator repellent is just the most insane and ironic thing I've heard. But also what you're explaining is so common when you are not just not taught about boundaries, you are actively taught against them.

Almost like excessive vulnerability, boundaryless relationships. So, of course, it's like a natural course of progression for you to easily be taken advantage of by somebody dangerous.

And I think people don't particularly realize just how easy it is for people to fall into harmful and potentially really dangerous relationships after even just, like, stepping outside of the bubble. You might be still a part of the church, but you're outside of that little bubble.

Elayna: 00:36:35

Yeah, it is. And of course, all of that was my fault, too. And I kept being talked. I needed to stop seeing this guy. I wasn't seeing him. He was seeing me.

And, you know, no backup, no. No skills.

It's not like the priesthood brethren came over to my apartment and defended me when he was showing up, you know, like, yeah, absolutely zero. No bouncers. Bouncers for this guy, you know?

Sam: 00:37:05

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:37:06

Just. You take care of it all on your own. And, you know, and I didn't understand what was happening when he was doing things that I didn't want.

And even though I was saying no and he was doing them anyway, I didn't register what that was.

Sam: 00:37:25

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:37:25

And I interpreted that as me committing a sin and me giving in to temptation.

Sam: 00:37:34

Yeah. So you did get married, but you didn't really do it the typical Mormon way.

So I'm curious what that looks like in terms of, like, your relationship with your parents and your family. And, like, did they. Obviously, it sounds like they didn't approve of that relationship or that marriage. Did you get temple married?

Elayna: 00:38:02

No, I actually really wanted to serve a mission. And then you have to. You have to go through the temple interview, and when they got to the. Do you obey the law of chastity, which is the.

Are you sexually pure? I admitted because I'm truthful and honest. This is embarrassing, but it needs to be told. I admitted that I masturbated, and they said I was unworthy.

And so that's when I was like. And their solution to fixing that is go get married. If you're having. If you're being sexually impure, then you got to go get married.

So I wasn't worthy of the temple.

And then he, of course, wasn't either, and he had joined the church, but you have to be a member for at least a year, and then you have to check all their little boxes to be temple worthy. So, no, we. We ended up God. Sorry, flashback. We actually ended up getting married in a Unitarian church.

Sam: 00:39:12

Oh.

Elayna: 00:39:14

Yeah. I was in Texas. Long story short, we were gonna get married at a friend's house.

I'm kind of glad that we didn't, because it Would have been humiliating. And then like a week before our wedding, a hurricane came through, so we evacuated.

And I took my wedding dress with me and I was like, you know what, I just kind of want to get this over with. And then the Mormon church out there that we evacuated to wouldn't marry us. I, I don't remember why.

They like needed approval from my bishop or something and it's like, well, I don't know where he is right now. Like, we evacuated from hurricane and. And so then we found a Unitarian church and they're like, yeah, we'll marry you. So surprise hurricane wedding.

And the marriage went about as smoothly as that.

Sam: 00:40:08

Yeah. Yeah.

How do you look back on that now and the marriage and I mean, anytime I feel like marriage and we better get this over and done with is in the same sentence. It's probably not ideal for our sense of self, but I'm curious how you look back on that now.

Elayna: 00:40:28

I'm so glad I got divorced. Yeah, got it. I, I'm so glad that divorce is legal and that women are allowed to initiate divorce because it wasn't in the States.

It wasn't until like: 1970

Sam: 00:40:53

Were you still part of the church when you got divorced?

Elayna: 00:40:57

No, I left the church and then I got divorced like a year later or I initiated the divorce a year later. It took a year or two for the thing to go through.

Sam: 00:41:10

Yeah. Typically takes it sweet ass time, but. Okay, so I'm curious, what, what was the final straw in terms of.

And I say that because, like, obviously I know it's typically a very long process for people to leave the, whatever faith or religion they were raised in, but what was that leaving process like for you?

Elayna: 00:41:37

So I was, I was married and I was living with horrible human. I, I will say this though, because he wasn't a super Mormon guy.

I was able to be more myself and explore things that I wouldn't have been able to do if he had been a super Mormon guy. So, you know, in a weird way that helped me kind of break out and you know, it. And he would, he would say things sometimes after.

And I don't want to give him credit for me leaving, but he coming home from church one time and he was like, why do they keep bringing up the natural man? I keep hearing the natural man is an enemy to God, but like, what's wrong with nature? Like, I am the natural man. Like, why is, why is nature bad?

You know, I didn't really have a, an Explanation. And just over the years, just things that people would say like, would add up.

And like, they would ask, you know, why can't Mormons drink tea and they chug soda but they can't have tea. Yeah. And just things started to not add up. And then I was so, I was super depressed and I was looking for something to help with my depression.

And I was studying hypnosis because I heard that it could help. And I was sitting in church one day and I realized that they were hypnotizing us with a really horrible message.

Sam: 00:43:16

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:43:17

And I was like, oh, no wonder, no wonder I'm so depressed.

And then I, I think a really big thing of it too was actually just studying the religion itself because they tell you that the scriptures have all the answers. And so I was reading the scriptures, looking for all the answers and I just noticed that like it didn't make sense.

Really bad writing on page, and they're saying this and on page five they're saying this and they contradict. And I would ask for clarification and I would be told it's just an obedience thing. Like what, what kind of answer is that?

Sam: 00:43:55

Yeah. And also Joseph Smith seems kind of like a bit of a dick.

Like, especially when you start, like, I remember when I was like, I was not a part of the Mormon Church, but we, we would have Mormon missionaries obviously come to your door and, and things like that. And I was this obnoxious Christian who thought that she knew best as a, you know, a early 20 year old obviously.

And I'd be like, yeah, come on in, like, and would love debating the poor Mormon missionary guys. And I was like, like, like this is insane. Like, I believe some weird. And I look back and I go, I believe some, some weird.

But like, this is, this is a lot. And so I, every ex Mormon that I talk to is always like, as soon as I started actually reading what they were teaching, it just crumbled. Yeah.

Elayna: 00:44:55

Yeah. My parents, when I was a teenager took us to this place called Nauvoo, which is like where the Mormon Church church started.

And we toured all of these old buildings and heard all these stories about church history. And that was actually kind of a, a crack in my testimony. Yeah, fired. They were trying to get us more in the church. And then I learned more about it.

And yeah, I had the missionaries knock on my door the other day. And so I told them, read your scriptures. Do what they tell you to do. Read your scriptures and really listen to them.

Don't just cherry pick them, you know, don't just read a verse every day. Like actually read the whole book. And yeah, it doesn't make sense.

Sam: 00:45:44

What was it like when that started to crumble, though? Because, like, it was all you had been raised with, it was all you knew. So it's still like a crumbling of your upbringing and your foundation.

And so what was that like for you?

Elayna: 00:46:01

It was scary and it was overwhelming and I didn't want to let go of it.

And my brother had left a few years prior and he and I would be having conversations and he saw me come home from church one day and I was having a panic attack. And he was like, are you okay? You know, And I was like, oh, this is just what happens every Sunday after church.

And like, well, maybe if that's happening, maybe it's a sign that this isn't a good thing. So I decided I was going to take a break from it. But I remember saying, like, I'm gonna take a break. But I still believe it. I still think it's true.

And he was just like, come on. Like, look at it. It's not making sense. It's not true. Like, you just gotta bite the bullet and just accept that it's not true.

And it was just really, really overwhelming. I was pretty dysfunctional. Even more dysfunctional than I already had been for a few years because I didn't. I didn't know anything about the world.

You know, I remember going to my first bar and they asked me what I wanted to drink. And I said, one alcohol, please.

Sam: 00:47:14

Oh.

Elayna: 00:47:16

And she goes, okay, what kind. This poor bartender probably thought that I was being such a. And I go, oh, there's different kinds.

Sam: 00:47:26

Oh.

Elayna: 00:47:28

So, I mean, that's just one example. But there were just so many things that it literally was like stepping into another universe.

Sam: 00:47:37

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:47:37

And my whole universe view shattered. And it just. It felt like my whole reality had shattered and turned upside down. And I was really confused. I didn't know who I was anymore.

And then I was getting divorced shortly after and so changing my name back to my maiden name. So I didn't even know what my name was. And I was just having even more panic attacks because it was just.

Sam: 00:48:03

Who.

Elayna: 00:48:04

Who am I? You know, because I wasn't Mormon anymore.

Sam: 00:48:07

So, like, when your whole identity is rooted in that, it's like an existential identity crisis that someone is going through. It's. It can be terrifying at that time. So it was.

Elayna: 00:48:23

It was.

Sam: 00:48:24

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:48:25

Existential identity crisis.

Sam: 00:48:27

Yeah. What was it like for you to unlearn? And this is obviously like A. I'm moving in the direction of where you are now.

But what was it like for you to start to unlearn all of the crap in that you were taught around purity culture and to start owning your own body again?

Elayna: 00:48:47

It was very liberating. Yeah, it was really liberating. Like, learning that this.

These urges and these impure thoughts that I'd had were actually normal was so freeing to just finally, like, accept myself of like, oh, I'm not a freak. There's nothing wrong with me. I'm just actually a healthy human.

Sam: 00:49:10

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:49:11

And just finding out that my body is like an amusement park instead of this temptation zone. And, like, and with learning about your body and things like that, you come across learning about boundaries and consent, and it was like, oh, no.

Oh, okay. Yeah. It wasn't me. It wasn't me giving into temptation. It was someone not taking no for an answer because he was a horrible person.

Sam: 00:49:46

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:49:48

So it was just. It was kind of like taking a breath of fresh air, you know?

Sam: 00:49:53

Did it feel liberating straight away?

Elayna: 00:49:56

I think so, yeah.

Sam: 00:49:58

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:49:59

You know, it. It was still kind of scary because there's always that kind of back of the mind, like, what if they're right thing?

But then I just have to do the self talk again of like, well, you know, they believe in talking snakes, so they're not.

Sam: 00:50:18

Yeah, okay. Okay. So there is reclaiming your body post purity culture and learning that all of that is not evil and abnormal and impure.

And, you know, I talk about purity culture in that it can cause actual trauma for us and it changes our makeup and our nervous system and all of that. And then there is reclaiming purity culture and becoming a stripper. And so I gotta know how that happened.

Elayna: 00:50:52

ay. Yeah, I know. So this was: 2012

And then, you know, I was on my break. That kind of just turned into a. I'm still on break. And then I needed a job.

And I'll give a little bit of backstory of like, because everyone wants to know, like, why. Why stripper? Why did you go to you? So I'd had.

I told you about the job that I'd worked at with the horses, where my coworker, who at the time was my husband, was not leaving me alone. And I would. During that time, I had talked to my sister, and her response was, well, stop wearing tank tops.

Because, you know, I was in Texas on the beach in the summertime working Outside, and I would wear tank tops and. And so his behavior was my fault for showing my shoulders. Yeah.

Sam: 00:51:56

The whole what were you wearing? Situation.

Elayna: 00:51:58

Yeah.

Sam: 00:51:58

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:51:59

And then I'd worked at just several different jobs. I'd worked at Home Depot for a while and would get a lot of harassment from the contractors there. And then I'd.

I'd actually worked as a machinist and got dealt with a lot of misogyny there. Found out my male co workers were making twice as much as me. Even though I was training them. It just. And then the.

The job that I had before I was a stripper, I'd actually gotten through the church.

They had a job placement program, and I was a caretaker for this autistic boy, and I was going out to this family's house that was another Mormon family and taking care of this boy. And the boy was great. He was sweet. The dad of the boy, however, was not a great guy and a very similar marriage as the one that I was in.

He was a lot older than her, and he would make really inappropriate comments to me and was just being creepy. And he grabbed my butt one day while I was in the kitchen.

Sam: 00:53:07

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:53:07

And I was just like, I'm not okay with this. And I was talking to another member, and she's like, wait, you're working where? That guy's a registered sex offender.

Sam: 00:53:17

Oh.

Elayna: 00:53:19

So the church had sent me to work in a home of a registered sex offender and did not tell me, and legally didn't have to tell me because I was over 18. I was, like, 23 or 24 at the time. And then I. I still tried to work with that. I was like, you know, I'll still work as long as he's not in the house.

But then he would, of course, come home. And I was just like, I can't do this. And I quit and went back to the church. I was still Mormon at that time, looking for another job.

And they had actually dissolved their job program because they didn't want to get in trouble.

Sam: 00:53:59

Oh, my goodness.

Elayna: 00:54:00

So I think it was like six months after that I quit going to church, and I needed a job, and I was so fed up, and I was not Mormon anymore. And being a stripper was the thing that I said I would never, ever do. You know, I. I was one of those people like, oh, look at those girls.

Sam: 00:54:23

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:54:23

And I just. I remember sitting on the couch one day and like, well, I heard that strippers can make good money. I wonder if I could do that. That's an option now.

Sam: 00:54:34

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:54:35

You know, I was just like, at this point with the harassment, and I was like, if I'm going to get treated this way anyway, I want to turn it on its head and I'm going to make money for it.

Sam: 00:54:47

Yep. And ironically, you. I suspect, you probably have far more control over. Around it anyway in that space.

Elayna: 00:54:56

And, Yeah, I do. And there's bouncers there to back me up if something happens. And I get to say the rules up front of, like, no means no. This is what you can do.

This is what you can't do. Yeah. And I. I am in control.

And that's where I learned how to stand up for myself and I got some backbone, and that's where I learned about boundaries and consent. And that's what opened my eyes to the man I was married to, because I noticed pretty quickly there's two types of guys who go into the club.

There's the guys who take no for an answer and the guys who don't take no for an answer.

Sam: 00:55:33

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:55:34

And the guys who don't take no for an answer get thrown out really quickly.

Sam: 00:55:38

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:55:39

And then it was just like, oh, my God, I'm married to a creeper.

Sam: 00:55:45

That's probably a really generous word. It sounds like based on everything you've said, it sounds like a very palatable word. I'm curious what if.

And if you remember what your first dance was like and how you felt.

Elayna: 00:56:05

I remember it very clearly. So my first time ever in the strip club. I love telling this story, by the way, was when I became a stripper.

I actually just went in for information, and they were like, well, you're cute. You can work tonight. It was a Friday the night. Friday the 13th. It was a full moon, and my period had started.

Sam: 00:56:30

Triple one.

Elayna: 00:56:33

And so I was like, okay. And I. I didn't even touch the pole because I was scared of it. So I just kind of went out there and, like, did this.

I had some people tip me and be like, I can tell you're new, but keep at it. And then someone asked me for a lap dance, and I didn't know what that was.

I honestly thought it was something that you did with your hands, like pat and cake. I. I had no clue. And so I just, like, put my hands on either side of him, and I went like this the whole song. And he was pretty mad.

And then another stripper took pity on me, and she's like, okay, come here. I. You can watch me do a dance. I'm gonna dance for this guy, and you can watch and then I'm gonna dance for you. And it's like, oh, oh, oh.

That's why it's a laptop.

Sam: 00:57:31

Okay. Yeah. Oh. How do you feel thinking back on it now? Like, is it just funny?

Is it, like, does it reinforce just how, you know, naive you were raised to be and trained to be?

Elayna: 00:57:48

Yeah, I. I think it's both of those. It's. Yeah, I think it's pretty funny.

Sam: 00:57:53

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:57:53

But it is also kind of sad when I think about it, honestly, that I was just so naive still around sex and anything sexy. And even though I'd been married for a few years and I was 26 at that time, and. Yeah. It just was like, wow, I was so, so naive.

Sam: 00:58:18

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, and I sort of put a caveat on the back of that, which is like, yes, naive, but you were also conditioned to be that naive. And so.

And I put that there because, like, it's not just you just being naive. And I think we often see that. That, again, as like, it's that person's fault, but you were conditioned to be that naive and that sheltered. So. Yeah.

Elayna: 00:58:46

You'Re absolutely right there. That's something I still have to catch myself with, is trying to not always blame myself for everything.

Sam: 00:58:54

Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering if.

I mean, obviously this is probably like my therapist self nerding out here for a second, which is like, was there a moment where you're dancing and you cognitively know that this is okay, but our body sometimes doesn't match that, and our body can still feel fear and anxiety and so I'm going, like, cognitively, you might have known that this was okay and normal and safe and good, but did it take a while for your body to catch up to that?

Elayna: 00:59:32

I think I'm still catching up to it.

Sam: 00:59:34

Yeah.

Elayna: 00:59:35

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's times that I feel really empowered, and then there's other times that I'm like, I'm naked up here. Yeah. And it's. Yeah, there's still.

I've noticed if I get really tired or I'm really stressed out or something, I start to get those old shame and guilt patterns coming through and I'll have to take a break and go cry and do the self talk again of, like, not doing anything wrong. This is in front of consenting adults. Yeah. You know, who are paying me, who. Who are wanting this.

Enthusiastically wanting this, you know, and this is just some purity culture that's, you know, ingrained in me, that's making me feel this shame and.

Sam: 01:00:29

Yeah. Yeah.

I feel Like I've got a double barreled question, but I will ask it in two phases which is how do your family feel about the fact that you are a stripper and how has that shifted and changed your relationship with them?

Elayna: 01:00:47

So this is their fault for teaching me to always be honest. I, When I first got my job, I was living in Texas and I was renting a house from my parents.

So I wasn't living under their roof, but it was a house, it had been my grandmother's house and they were renting it out and so I was renting from them and I tried to lie about what my job was and then I couldn't do it. And I told them honestly what I was doing because I felt bad about lying.

And then they said I couldn't rent the house anymore, so they took my housing away.

And then in Texas I kept trying to find a house and every time I would drop what my legal job was, the room would just go cold and silent and I couldn't find housing.

And so I moved across the country to known as the stripper capital of the us there's like more strip clubs per capita than anywhere else in the country and it might be anywhere else in the world. And I thought I, I can probably find housing there.

Sam: 01:02:04

You would hope. Fingers crossed.

Elayna: 01:02:07

So I did. And so that was very painful. And they didn't talk to me for a while and I didn't talk to them. And then we kind of started talking again.

And then I tried to stop contact with them a couple years ago, but then they kept pushing to talk to me and they're at least not super pushy with the religion, but it's just really painful to talk to someone and have a polite chit chat about pets and the weather with people who put me in danger, who took my housing away, who, you know, it. It's not like I want to talk to them about my job. I don't, I, I just, I'm not going to lie about what I do. Yeah.

And you know, I, I know how they think. I think that they think I forgot the teachings of the church. They don't realize that. No, I went harder. Yeah. I learned more about it.

So I know how they think. I know they think that I'm going to Mormon hell and it's just very painful and draining to have a chat of like, oh, wasn't the weather weird today?

Wasn't the weather nice with people who think I'm evil?

Sam: 01:03:43

Yeah, yeah.

Elayna: 01:03:46

And very, very strained.

Sam: 01:03:48

Yeah, yeah.

You alluded to, I guess the Second part of what that question was going to be, which is how do you personally deal with, I guess, the stigma and the hate against any form of sex work? Right. And.

And navigating that, the reality is, is that in some situations, it is incredibly unethical and dangerous and being able to have that nuance, but also just deal with the stigma. For anybody who works in this space or adjacent to this space, I try.

Elayna: 01:04:25

To just be open about what I do, and I feel like I'm very open online with what I do, but I haven't told my neighbors, and I don't.

Sam: 01:04:36

I don't know my neighbors either.

Elayna: 01:04:40

I don't know them very well, and I don't really want them in my business. And it's. It's always kind of scary whenever I meet a new friend and, you know, I'm trying to get to know somebody, and then I drop that bomb on them.

And, yeah, there's definitely still a really big stigma about it. So I just. I just keep speaking my truth. There's a lot of Captain Save a Hose out there.

Sam: 01:05:11

Never heard that terminology. And I love it that they just.

Elayna: 01:05:15

Think that we're too stupid or. Or naive. Like, I get why they think that we're naive because I was very naive.

But I've learned a lot from being in this industry, and this is the industry that taught me to stand up for myself, and I chose to do it. I think. I think a lot of people think that we've been coerced or forced or somehow to be in this, and we. There's nothing else that we can do.

And sex trafficking is horrible. Labor trafficking, period, is horrible and shouldn't happen.

You should not be forced to work in a warehouse if you don't want to work in a warehouse, you know? And so I just. I just keep trying to raise awareness of, like, some people actually want to do this. We do have other options. I do enjoy my job.

And how many people out there can you go, you know, just go out onto the street and ask people, do you enjoy what you do for a living? I would say that probably 80 of people would say no.

Sam: 01:06:21

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:06:21

So I pretty lucky to be in something that I, for the most part, most of the time, do really enjoy.

Sam: 01:06:27

Yeah. Yeah.

And I mean, you used an analogy there in terms of, like, when you're talking to people and, like, you're having to, like, drop it at, like, drop the bomb. And I'm. My first reaction was, like, the fact that that even is, like, considered dropping a bomb is insane to me. But I know why, and I'm.

It's insane to me because I'm like, there are literal bombs being dropped in places. Like, can we just, like, get over the fact that, like, you are choosing to take your clothes off for a living?

Like, there are far worse things in the world at the moment than. Than, like, consensually choosing whatever career path you want to do. Right.

Elayna: 01:07:07

Yeah.

Sam: 01:07:08

But it just. Does it. Do you find that it impacts the way that you form friendships and make relationships and. And that sort of thing?

Elayna: 01:07:19

It definitely does. When I first started doing this, I was very open about it.

Sam: 01:07:26

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:07:26

Because I didn't. I didn't want to be feeling shame about it.

I didn't want to be contributing to the stigma, and I got just so many bad reactions, and now I'm a little more reserved on opening up, and it's. I do find that I kind of hold myself back from going out and meeting people outside of the sex industry, outside of my little bubble now.

Sam: 01:07:54

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:07:56

Just because. It's exhausting.

It's exhausting to get to know somebody and then to just say what I do for work, and then their energy changes, like, I'm some kind of weird freak.

Sam: 01:08:10

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:08:10

I. It's like. It's just a job. Honestly, it's just a job. It's a legal job. It's a job I chose to do.

I'm not gonna do it for you for free, so I think people are worried I'm gonna hop up on the table and start twerking or something. I'm like, you're not paying me, and I'm off the clock.

Sam: 01:08:30

Yeah, exactly. Oh, goodness. I mean, like, I just sit here, and I'm, like, frustrated on your behalf.

That that has to be the way that it is is just, like, infuriating because. Yeah, I just. I mean. And, like, you know, me from 10 years ago would have been horrified. Me now is like, yay. But.

So I understand both sides of that coin. But, yeah, it's just. I'm. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated on your behalf that it's like, you've almost had to create that bubble.

Elayna: 01:09:08

Oh, yeah. Me, 10 years ago would have had the same reaction of, like, you need to come back to Jesus. Yeah.

Sam: 01:09:16

Yeah. I mean, I'm curious what you would say to, like, your teenage self if you, like, if you could.

Elayna: 01:09:25

Leave the church. Run. There's nothing wrong with you.

Sam: 01:09:30

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:09:31

See, you're sweet. The church is taking advantage of you.

Sam: 01:09:37

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:09:38

Oh, go make friends outside of the church and don't try to convert them.

Sam: 01:09:41

Yeah, yeah. Little caveat. But it's powerful. I'm curious where your sense of spirituality is now.

Elayna: 01:09:54

So I'm an atheist now. I feel like I fall somewhere between atheist and agnostic. I definitely don't think that Heavenly Father is real and I'm okay with not knowing.

You know, I feel like atheist is kind of a harsh term because it's, it's almost dogmatic in its own way of like, there is no God, there is no supreme being. It's like, like, well, you don't know that. Yeah. Maybe we're little cells inside of a larger being. Like we don't know. And I'm okay with that.

And I've, I went through a pagan phase until it got a little woo woo. And I started to see that it was just like, not really grounded in reality either.

But I did take away from that a much greater respect for nature where I didn't have that respect when I was Mormon, which is weird. You know, they say that God created the earth, but then they don't treat the earth very well at all and don't care about it.

So I've, I've gotten a lot more into just connecting with nature and just really like that's kind of my spirituality is just existing in the real world and not needing this fantasy world to escape to.

Because when you actually get grounded in this world and you, you pay attention to it, like it's a beautiful world, it's magical enough, it doesn't need anything else. Just connecting with my pets. Like my pets can say I love you. Yeah, they can actually say I love you.

And like that's, that's a spiritual moment for me, you know? Yeah. Like seeing a magical sunset, like, that's, that's my connecting with the greater universe.

Sam: 01:11:54

Yeah.

And I think for a lot of people who choose to leave like organized religion behind, it is just around like spirituality is, is an equation to connection and connection with yourself and connection with the world around you. And that, like you said, can be an inherently spiritual experience. It doesn't have to be with something metaphysical or divine or anything like that.

We can have a spiritual experience with another person or with a tree or, you know, with a sunset, like you said, or a beach or something. You know, we can have spiritual experience experiences without it having to be in the, in another realm or something.

So if that's what you choose to do. And I think that's the biggest thing.

So I like to finish these episodes with some encouragement for people, which is what would you say to Someone who is fresh in their deconstruction. So they've either just left the church, they're just like. The foundation is crumbling. It's just all falling apart for them.

What would you say to those people?

Elayna: 01:13:08

That recovery is possible and it does get easier. And it's not you. It's not you being crazy. It's those thought processes that were put into you. And it is important to do the.

Sam: 01:13:26

The.

Elayna: 01:13:26

Not only deconstruction, but the reconstruction. You need to form new neural pathways that are healthy that aren't telling you that you're a worthless piece of sinner, you know?

Sam: 01:13:40

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:13:41

I talked to someone yesterday. We did a little collab, and she was saying she left at 18 and wasn't. It wasn't until she was 50 that she realized she was still running on those.

Those old thought processes. And she needed to do the. I call it brain surgery.

Yeah, she needed the brain surgery and upload some new thought processes so that you can have a function, functioning, healthy life.

Sam: 01:14:09

Yeah.

Elayna: 01:14:09

And there's.

There's so many support groups now and therapists and places that you can go to, to recover that I feel like it was just within the last, like, 10 years or so that this conversation has kind of blown up about religious trauma.

Sam: 01:14:27

Yeah, absolutely. I think even here in. It's much more.

It's been much more prominent in the US For a little bit longer, but particularly in Australia and New Zealand, in our part of the world, it's probably only been in the last five or six. I would think that it's been quite. And it. It's getting louder and louder and.

And it's probably because there are people like me and a whole few others who are trying to be really loud about it, so. But it's good. It's great because it means.

I mean, it's part of the reason why I started this podcast was so that people felt less alone and that they weren't the only people going through that process of brain surgery, like you said. I love that. I love that term. I typically will say, like.

Like random things like uninstalling and reinstalling, you know, the programs that you want in your system. But it's any sort of like. Regardless of the terminology you use, it's a process. But I love when people just sit there and they say it's possible.

And I think sometimes that's all people need to hear, is that recovery is possible. So I love that. Thank you so much for joining me.

Elayna: 01:15:35

Me. You're very welcome. Thank you so much for having me.

Sam: 01:15:39

I've loved this conversation. I love what you do. I love that you're talking about it and keep talking about it and keep smashing stigma and patriarchal and I love it. So thank you.

Elayna: 01:15:54

Well yeah, same to you.

Thank you for doing what you do and being loud and yeah that's, that's what I'm trying to do is just get loud about this, this issue and just raise more awareness and so keep doing what you're doing.

Sam: 01:16:14

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who may might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you.

Remember, no matter where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.