The Domestic Violence Survivor

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there, and welcome to Beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control or cult communities and are deconstructing their faith. I'm your host, sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained. Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place.

01:36

This is Beyond the Surface. Hey, welcome, charlie. Thanks for joining me. Hey, you are in what part of New Zealand are you in? North, south, I'm in.

01:49 - Charli (Guest)

I'm in the north island uh, in a city called Bay of Plenty um Tauranga yeah, okay, and it's fairly warm.

01:57 - Sam (Host)

We are both. It's like the middle of summer and we are both sweltering, I think, in our respective places. But this episode has been a long time coming right. We've had hurdle after hurdle after hurdle in getting here, but we are finally here.

02:18 - Charli (Guest)

It's added to the anticipation.

02:19 - Sam (Host)

Yes, absolutely. So tell me, where does your story start? Such a good?

02:25 - Charli (Guest)

question yes, absolutely. So. Tell me, where does your story start? Such a good question. My story starts. I'm 38 years old. My story is 38 years old. It starts at birth.

02:40

It starts at the life and the lineage that I was born into, and it's come more and more to life, um, as I've had the language for it in the last few years only a few years and I don't feel that I'm even still there when it comes to the full language, yeah, and being able to put everything into a pretty little story. You know, and I think the nature of this stuff is that sometimes, unexpectedly, things all trigger you or spark up out of nowhere and you're like, wow, thought I'd done that work and here I am again.

03:13 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, Jane um has a. It's my favorite analogy that I've ever heard, which is, you know that whack-a-mole game where you have to try. It's the best analogy. That's what, like deconstruction or religious trauma, falls under, because, yeah, it is a little bit like when you think you've whacked all of them down, one will pop up, or there might be a bit of a lull, and then like six pop up once. So, yeah, absolutely, and I mean david hay, the Naked Pastor, says deconstruction is a lifestyle, not a destination, and I would agree. I don't think I mean, I don't think any healing is a destination. It's a way of being, but in particularly in this space, I think it is just a way of life, a new way of doing life, life.

04:04 - Charli (Guest)

I was just going to say yeah, the deconstruction. It has to have permission to be so open-ended and not follow any rules, because that's the nature of what we've literally stepped out of yeah or free fallen, as the case may be.

04:18 - Sam (Host)

Yes, absolutely. It's trying to get out of that binary black and white thinking right and not jump into another type of black and white thinking. Um, were you raised in a religious home?

04:32 - Charli (Guest)

yeah, yeah. So, like I said, I was, I was born into it, so it's all I've. Um, christianity is all I've known since entering the world. Um, I grew up in the church. I grew up in the Christian home, and then the Christian home followed a lot of daily rules and rituals, um, and then church they were involved in, and the worship team and that sort of thing. So I was just always at church, not just on a Sunday, but on, you know, wednesday night practice and a Tuesday night prayer group, and then Sunday school, and then all our friends were from the same, or, like you know, family friends and visitors were from church, and eventually I then went to a Christian school. So it was, it was all consuming, so it literally was all I know, because it's your whole environment, right? So it's, it's the only thing that was echoed to me.

05:22 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and do you remember enjoying it as a child, or was it just something that was part of the family? When did that become personal for you?

05:33 - Charli (Guest)

it's such a good question actually.

05:35

Um, I think I probably very generously do remember enjoying it, and I guess I'll have to sit with that a bit longer in my own journey, because was that genuine enjoyment or was that because it was all I knew?

05:53

Yeah, really, um, and you know, taking for example, from a very little age, so I'm talking preschool age, even it was the Lord's Prayer, not the Lord's Prayer, sorry, the sinner's prayer, but like on repeat, you know, it became such a thing that I could almost get, I guess, praise and validation. For if I was like, oh, I said the sinner's prayer again, and if I could recite sort of things, and if I could act a certain way and we were in quite the, you know, the Pentecostal style, the evangelical style, the louder music style, so if I was acting the way that I was perceiving I had to act, then I would get a lot of praise and validation. So I'm I'm yet to deconstruct whether that was actual enjoyment or or a young girl's ego receiving praise and validation. Yeah, and it is for that challenge no worries, I'm here to help.

06:50 - Sam (Host)

Um, it is a little it. It's such a vicious circle at times, isn't it because? Was it joy? Was it, you know? Affirmation? Is it a combination of both? Yeah, was there a moment where the faith did become personal, where there was an active choice of? Actually, you know, this is what I want for my life.

07:15 - Charli (Guest)

Yeah, so as a young child yes, that beautiful joy and innocence and that childlike faith, as they say, I guess that was quite present for myself. Um, and it wasn't until I grew older that I then, as a young teenager, thought I was making a conscious choice on my own. Still, um, yeah, it wasn't actually until I was in my very early 30s that I stepped into well, that I stepped out of everything and and fell into where I'm at now, which is the deconstruction, but also still very spiritual, but in a uh, in a non-christian way that feels like judgment coming out of my mouth. I've had a lot of christian people be very offended by myself. However, I would argue that I'm a bit more, you know, connected than they probably are.

08:11 - Sam (Host)

So, yeah, yeah, the language is what sometimes does start to stump me, but yeah, yeah, and I think for a lot of people the even just the label of Christian is really loaded. I know, I know for me, even just when I first left well I say left the church, when I was forced out of the church. But you know, and you sort of have, there's a. For a lot of people there's a transition period where there might still be a faith, but not at church, because church is loaded and and you then start to go oh, maybe I don't actually really like the label christian either, because that's a really loaded term in society. Um, what sparked leaving for you was that was it a big bang moment? Was there a series of events? Was it slow?

09:05 - Charli (Guest)

yeah, um. So just to touch on what you said yeah, like. So the label Christian is not how I identify now at all but sometimes it has to come in for making things relevant. Yeah of course, um.

09:17

So no, there was a huge thing. Very, very long story short was I went through a horrific divorce. I, like in an instant, had to get out from the marriage. I was in um and leave my husband and we were very, very deeply tied into the church and all that stuff. Um, and I literally had this moment where I said fuck you, god, I'm out. Yeah, and so it was, and it was heavy and it was loaded and it was, on my part, completely targeted. I didn't even know who or what I was speaking to when I said fuck you, god, I'm out. It was whoever you've been, we are done. This is toxic as fuck.

09:57

But the response that landed in me I guess it kind of unfolded through that time was almost like thank fuck, I'll meet you out here, yeah, and I did not go searching for it. In fact, I went the complete opposite and I was like I'm out of my marriage and I, you know, I did some things. And freedom, you know, fuck, that's good, it's a good thing. But I started to realize that I was so graciously and gently free, falling into this genuine so that was at 32 years old. So for 32 years old I've been a part of the church.

10:37

I'd read the bible my whole life. I'd been in Christian education. I'd actually been in Christian ministry. My ex-husband and I were doing you, you know, church leadership, all the things and yet, for the first time, me saying fuck you, god, I'm out, was the most connected moment that I've ever experienced, some sort of connection to what I perceived as God at the time. I struggle with the word God now, so yeah, yeah, and I certainly don't identify with God being male, so I'll just throw that in there now yeah, actually um Maggie from the deconstructionists.

11:13 - Sam (Host)

She has a t-shirt that says um, god is a woman and that woman is me, and I love that it's so good, yeah, yeah, absolutely beautiful.

11:24 - Charli (Guest)

And I'm reminded of, like Glennon Doyle said something, um, she said you know, she calls, you know God, she and she. She said it's not that God's not a he and now a she. But until we can actually come up with something, then I will go with she, because, why not? You know, absolutely as equally and powerfully and authentically as we have always rolled with heat.

11:45 - Sam (Host)

So yeah, what was your experience? How did the church support you coming out of you know, your divorce and you know, did they support you? Were you sort of extracised because of it? Yeah, I was gonna say what support is this? Yeah, I know I'm saying it going, I probably know this answer, but I'm gonna ask it anyway um, I can.

12:10 - Charli (Guest)

I can tell you that I've never heard from any of them again. Yeah, the church that we were in, which was a very big, uh, well-known church, and I've not heard from any of them again. The Facebook deletes came in rampant and wild, um I think. The biggest thing for me, though, is I lost my family in that process. So you know, 32 year old mum, I had got married young, so it had been a 14 year marriage and I'd had the children.

12:37 - Sam (Host)

Because you know, of course I got married.

12:39 - Charli (Guest)

I was like every Christian gets married young, so that goes without saying, um, but so I kind of naively thought, okay, well, it's time to leave and there had been some awful abuse. So you know, there were reasons I needed to bloody well leave. Um, I mean, I'm now a trauma coach and so that says a lot for itself. But, um, yeah, you can never prepare for what that feeling of your own family been like. No, yeah, and it's been six years now and that situation has not changed. So he he also, you know, is very connected to my family and yeah, it's very painful, it's so misguided, it's so sad. Yeah, um, but whatever, I'm in such a good space, such a connected space, I've got my children, we're safe and I'm raising them outside like complete opposite to how I was ever raised um and they, I share the confusion with them.

13:43

Sometimes I share the because they're teenagers now. So you know I share the um. You know, sometimes there's that moment and you're like oh, whoops, that's not, you know I'm being a bad girl or whatever. You know, like these big stories and I kind of share the um, struggle I feel with them, things like Easter, and they're like oh, so what is the story of Easter? And I hear myself saying it and I'm like fuck, that sounds ridiculous when you actually hear the words.

14:13

I know yeah, I'm like I'm sorry guys, I actually don't know. So I'm so open and vulnerable with what I do and don't know and that I'm so okay with that and they have full permission to explore that however they want and need to for them. So it's that complete opposite to the.

14:34 - Sam (Host)

This is how it is no questions asked, versus you ask every damn question and I'm here to hear every version of what you come up with yeah, absolutely, I think it's shifting from this is the truth to find your truth, um, because one is very much a submission, control-based, um, sister family system and the other is about openness and curiosity and, and you know, autonomy is a wonderful thing, right?

15:08

You know we say that like, of course, people know that autonomy is wonderful, except that there is so little of it when you are raised in a religious home and so you know that's being transparent and is just sort of modelling to them that it's okay to ask questions. It's okay not to have all of the answers, it's okay to not know what you believe. It's okay to believe something you know and all of that is okay, rather than this is what you have to believe.

15:43 - Charli (Guest)

And learning your own own, not, yeah, like forming your own identity through that journey, right, but also like learning how to trust your own gut. That was probably the biggest thing that was taken from me from birth, you know, is that you are never allowed your own gut, you are never allowed your own intuition. This is it. I will force feed you this truth, um, until you gag, and, and anything that you may ever question or feel or be curious about, I'm gonna scorn, yeah, um, and criticize you and make you feel like shit.

16:17

But even asking a question, um, you know that blind faith kind of thing so to see my children as young teenagers make decisions based on what their gut feels and learn to have boundaries. I mean boundaries were never a thing until you know mid thirties. To see it now in them, I actually heal a bit through seeing I've provided them a different way, a different space them a different way, a different space.

16:51 - Sam (Host)

Absolutely, yeah, the the lack of self-trust is a real, a real thing to navigate for people, um, I mean, I don't know how many times I heard you know, lean not on your own understanding and and I you know my, I've quite a, I would say I have quite a strong intuition and I think, for a really long time, my intuition is what I would have called the Holy Spirit or the voice of God and it's like, well, actually, no, that's me, that's my intuition, that's my gut instinct, that's me, that's my intuition, that's my gut instinct, um, but it takes a lot of um, a lot of wrestling to be able to trust yourself as not this broken, faulty person who can't be trusted, um, but as inherently trustworthy Um. What was it like for you coming out of the church? Family left, what was that like for you?

17:55 - Charli (Guest)

it was. I was so unprepared, I was so scared um. The level of trauma that I had just left, and the post-separation abuse that I was now enduring as well, was leaving me um, super brain foggy. You know, classic PTSD, cbtsd, um is what I experienced. So every symptom under the sun? Um, so lonely uned, nowhere to hold on, because, essentially, I lost all my friends and my family and I had no one. Um, I moved into a brand new town that I'd never been in before and I didn't know anyone at all. So, so it was really truly a free fall.

18:39

Start over, I had a kid in each hand. I'd actually had everything taken off me, including my wallet and my my phone. So I had literally the clothes I was wearing and a kid in each hand. I'd actually had everything taken off me, including my wallet and my phone. So I had literally the clothes I was wearing and a kid in each hand and was told if you leave, you leave with nothing. So, honestly, complete survival took over. So it's sometimes not even clear to remember.

18:58

In hindsight, you start to see these things and I sometimes even say I don't know how I survived it at all. It was hard, it was so much grief, there's still so much grief, anger, fucking rage. How dare you treat people like this? And I had a knowing I don't know what it was, I don't have the language for it, and I think this is what found me in that space where I said I fell out here and and it's like the real version of creator source met me in that space and I had a knowing that, yeah, I'm making the right choice, keep going, keep going.

19:38

Yes, I wanted to die. Yes, I contemplated suicide. Yes, it was all the things, um, but the, the some spark of knowing inside of me kept me going. And I have so much freedom now, I have so much autonomy, I have so much joy and I have so many incredible people in my world that I met in this random small town. You know, um, um, yes, I so. Now I have a lot of gratitude, but that's definitely the I guess the alchemy of everything is brutally painful, as you can possibly imagine. Yeah, just that confusion, the not knowingness of I don't know where to turn, I don't know anyone, I don't know what to do. Am I going to be homeless? I actually wasn't homeless, thank goodness, you know, but it was a serious consideration there for about three days.

20:31 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, how does someone rebuild essentially from the ground up? How did you navigate that?

20:42 - Charli (Guest)

I think, because physically I was incredibly unwell too. You know, the body keeps the score right. So I was. I mean, I was coming out in cold sores under my neck, like it was really weird, and and I went to the doctor and she's like I've never seen that and like I had boils come up. I was hospitalized with leading surgery for this boil that was. It was four centimeters deep and seven centimeters wide just on the side of my spine, just these unexplainable things.

21:08

I was, you know, chronic fatigue. I had the IBS kicked in, migraines, like everything that could kick in. So I was also combating the physical fuckery of it all. Right, yeah, um, so I don't know how. So my, I did have a teaching degree and I managed to pick up some, you know, relieving, which is just that day-to-day teacher cover work, um, in a local school.

21:32

But I look back again and I'm like I don't know, I don't, I don't know how I got through it. Yeah, because I wasn't okay. Um, yeah, and then a lady I don't even know, a lady who I had met like years prior, just randomly bumped into and she's like, hey, hey, what's going on? Like what I've heard about your story, you know, like there's something going on and and she was working in a community center at the time and she very I can only say divinely was dropped in front of me in town one day and she said we need you, we need your story, and so she actually called me in to work in this community center, um, to work with women and homeless. Yeah, it's quite astounding.

22:20

So I did that for a few years. I got grounded, I mean, I was hurled through court, I was having multiple sick days, they but they looked after me and I'm still very well connected with that team of people who allowed me to somehow be myself a hot mess. Yeah, so it's very much that inner knowing, the trusting, the gut that I kept going and then allowing that. You know, when that knowing said to me it's about time I'll meet you out here. It meant it and it was like here's some things, here's some people bump into this person, here's how we're going to nurture you. So from there, everything's just escalated and healed for me and doing incredibly well yeah the universe was kind to you in.

23:08 - Sam (Host)

In a you know, in deep pain and grief where, like you said, your body would have went into survival mode. And you know, gosh, I think people forget the like, the somatic, being body side of trauma and stress. And you know we say that stress can kill you and all of that sort of thing because you know it, that stress can kill you and all of that sort of thing, because you know it can cause heart attacks and heart issues. But I think we forget that it impacts literally every part of our body and and if we are not um actively trying to release that emotion and process it and express it in a gentle way, it'll come out in sickness and in, you know, migraines and in gut health and you know all sorts of things. And I think it's a part of trauma, particularly complex trauma and relational trauma, that people are just not talking enough about.

24:12 - Charli (Guest)

But don't they be people even necessarily? Yeah, like no, hey, they don't even. Because I mean, this is the space I work in too and people will sort of blink stare when sometimes they say this sort of stuff. I'm so grateful that I'm a quick learner because I did realise what was happening to me really quick and I did go on a real healing you know rampage as well to support myself almost from the outside back in. You know it was the inside out that was just killing me and and overwhelming my life. You know I could have turned to a lot of things. Trust me, I could have. You know, I.

24:47

You know alcohol and certain supplements and whatnot, and I ended up just not choosing any of that and thought, nah, I know what's going on, I don't know what up here, but the knowing you, um. So I turned to, like you know, massage and boxing, and climbing mountains, and nature and and cold water. I didn't even know about cold water back then, but I would go and get in the lake or get in the river, you know, because I could tell I needed to just cold shock myself, because that was the only way that I could start to feel something again.

25:19 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, and so what was the process like for you actually starting to deconstruct all of the, the beliefs and the conditioning and the indoctrination that happened? What was it like? Because you know, we know that that doesn't happen overnight, it happens continually and we realize, oh shit, there's some, really you know, messed up, learned messages and behavior there. What was that process like for you starting to sort of detangle all of that?

25:52 - Charli (Guest)

So I certainly didn't have the language. So I did not know. The only language I had was that I was some sort of detangle, all of that. So I certainly didn't have the language. So I did not know. The only language I had was that I was some sort of backslidden heathen. Um, that was the only thing I thought I knew, and I chose that willingly because I thought, well, fuck it, I'll do that then, because that's the only thing that feels safe and comfortable and right. Yeah, um, so I did not have any of the language, and this was only six years ago. I didn't know any of the language, and this was only six years ago. I didn't know any of it.

26:18

But I started to notice my reactions. I was super triggered all the time and I was being surrounded by Christian people and I would just react to this feels so vulnerable to share, because we'll see how you hear it, but tones of voice were a big thing for me. You know, like, like, in the church space that I grew up in, there was a way that you talk to kind of emphasize stuff and build hype and like, yeah, jesus, and it was real. Like, I call it Christianese, you know? Yes, I hope that doesn't offend anybody, but it is. It's Christianese and I'm just like, and and I would react all the time, so I would just start to pick that stuff away.

27:07

Um, whether that, whether they were Christian or not, like it was just being around that kind of hype, um, I was hearing it, particularly in men. Um, this was not agended towards men, but in my lifetime experience, men had always been the supreme and the leaders and the ones wearing suits and all that you know. Um. So, and I remember being at, like my son's primary school graduation and some guy whoever got up and he was in a suit and so it wasn't even a christian setting, but he was. He was bringing that presence and that hype and that tone and I liked I actually walked out during that speech because I was like I can't even um, people, would you know, starting to just sort of reach out or say different things to me, and it was. You know they'll be like oh, you know you'll come back and jesus has got you and I'll pray for you and all that stuff and I was like, nah, but I'm good, leave me alone.

27:57

Like let's talk about something else. Um, yeah, so I just started to, I guess, stand firm and where I was at with it, defiantly and quite proudly. Defiantly, um, a bit of a rebel, and proudly again, even though defiance and rebel had been bad words for me growing up. But I'm starting to realize that actually, no rebel is a beautiful, powerful place to be. You know, I watched the series vikings at the time. Um, you know, I'd be at home and watch netflix with the kids, you know, going through all the shit and realize, fucking hell, this is who I am, this, this is me, and I'm going to stand up. I'm going to fight for me and my loved ones. I started to piece together my own worth in this process. I'd never had any. So I'm deconstructing here without knowing it's deconstructing. I'm putting boundaries in without knowing it's, boundaries around people that are making me feel sick and triggered. I'm building my own worth and realizing I fucking matter what I want for dinner tonight is important.

29:01

What I want to do today, the hell. I'm going to decorate my new house this you know. So I guess all of these parts combined um, and I think it probably wasn't until online I stumbled across I think it was the naked pastor. Oh, we love David, and I just remember thinking that's it.

29:22

That's the Jesus I know, actually that's the Jesus dressed in a rainbow cloak. You know something that he'll wear carrying a rainbow shirt? And I mean, I'm not personally, I mean, that's a whole nother stuff that comes up in religion as well, and I haven't changed my sexuality or anything like that, but I always knew that the way I was meant to treat people different to me was meant to be horrible. And so to see him, and then I think he must have hashtag deconstruction and I clicked on it and, oh my God, I just started to spiral baby. Clicked on it and, oh my god, I just started to spiral baby. So just that's what started to piece together my language, that I'm like, what I'm doing isn't wrong or bad, I'm actually normal. And there's other people like me, yeah, and I can start to talk about this, and I started using hashtag deconstruction and yeah, you know, I don't know.

30:14 - Sam (Host)

I actually don't know. I only spoke to David a few days ago actually, um, but I don't know whether he actually coined the term, but he very much was the first person who was, uh, who was using the term quite publicly. Um, and it's sort of yeah, I think it's snowballed from there. Um, yeah, david's, david's stuff is really great um, because it challenges a lot of the um, the harm and the hurt that the church causes um in a really smart way, because he does it through art and he does it through comic and so it's not you're really shit, it's. You know, maybe we should let love um. I think he has one where it's like the church lets scripture decide how they love, whereas you should be letting love determine the scripture and it's like you know that sort of um, and so it's really great it. I'm not surprised that that was the first it's funny and it's so simple.

31:24 - Charli (Guest)

I mean essentially it's black and white stick figures you know, and that's what I, what I needed.

31:30

I didn't need the complexity of like freaking grand art, that, no deciphering. I mean, I needed a scribbled sheep dressed in a rainbow cloak to realize that that's okay. And I think, the one because I went on a scrolling spray on his page, because it just spoke straight to my heart and I just thought I found my person. You know like I'm, and to see he had all these followers and commenters, I'm like this is my people. And the one that really got me, that made me step into this is definitely who I am, as I can't remember the wording of it, but it was um flipping the tables. You know it was Jesus.

32:05

Yeah, this is actually who I am and I'm not going to be ashamed of that, and I mean part of my personality, is that I am a bit of a um you know, injustice is my drive, so and I'm not going to be ashamed of that, and I mean, part of my personality is that I am a bit of a?

32:15

um. You know, injustice is my drive, so and I work, you know, children and trafficking and standing up for the underdog, so that table flipping is the one that just captured me and I'm like, actually I'm, I'm sticking to this. You know, this isn't a fad, it's not a phase. I can still find creation and creator, in my experience, without labels, without rules, without walls. Yeah, Absolutely.

32:42 - Sam (Host)

I think if people want to look it up, I think if you head to the Naked Pastors website, it is the overturning, the image that you're talking about think is called overturning um, and I remember and I remember it because I remember looking at it and going it's like um, the equivalent of jesus saying like let's fuck shit up, um, and which I just really loved because actually I think that's probably more what he would say than some of the things that the Christians are saying he would say. And so I loved it because I think it's probably the most accurate depiction of Jesus that we have, where you know it's like this is not how it's supposed to be. Guys Like this is not okay, like this is not okay. What was it like for you? Actually like finding new language to explain what was going on for you. Was it relieving, reassuring?

33:44 - Charli (Guest)

It was relieving, it was really cool. It was so normalizing and it really gave me something to ground myself into thinking. I'm not just, you know, a kite flying around in the wind. There's something here. Yeah, um, I'm. I'm aware that it's still like, if you take the word deconstruction, most people still don't even know what that word is. Um, you know, and I'll work with people who are deconstructing and I will not throw that word on them at all, because I'm still really cautious to to not just jump into something else now that has words and a routine to it, because that's not the point at all. Um, so it did help me, but it's not something that I've now grabbed on with and roll with completely. Um, yeah, I don't use it in my languaging all the time, but it's a great knowledge bank that I have that I can step into supporting other people yeah, absolutely.

34:42 - Sam (Host)

I find language is really helpful. Um, when you need to describe something as opposed to you know a whole bunch of different words. I remember when my therapist first explained that what I was doing was deconstruction, and I remember I wanted to do the same. I didn't necessarily want to just take it and run with it, and so I remember sitting with it for a little while and just going actually like it's a good word. It describes what I'm doing, but actually I much prefer the word detangling, because I feel like detangling makes it sound like I'm actually involved. I picture.

35:25

You know that process of like detangling Christmas lights is what comes into my mind. Um, you know, deconstruction for me often can seem like you're just like taking a sledgehammer to it and then it just shatters, whereas detangling is slow and it's active and it's, you know, conscious, and I love that imagery, and so I think it's just about finding authentic language. But often I find language can be reassuring and validating that. You know, like you said, we're not in this alone, which is really important. Yeah, absolutely, because you know religious trauma in itself is, you know, I guess in the industry, a relatively new terminology that people are using and there's still a lot of talk around.

36:25

You know how we make that more concrete and thorough and expansive of um, but even just on a personal level, it's really misunderstood and like dismissed by a lot of people. Right, you know it's really. People will um empathize with you if you were in a car accident or if you've come back from war or you know something like a traumatic incident happened, but religious trauma is largely dismissed and invalidated by a lot of people. Was there any of that experience for you throughout that stage where people were like, you know, this shouldn't be a thing for you. You know, like you've just got to like suck it up and move on, and you know all shouldn't be a thing for you.

37:16 - Charli (Guest)

You know, like you've just got to like suck it up and move on and you know all of that unhealthy language that I think the biggest thing is that that forgiveness that we're preached at and spew that when you're in it, you know and this is not to shit on forgiveness that's, it's literally irrelevant, like, yeah, it's that enforced bypassing, where they go straight from oh're hurt, and they go straight into defensiveness oh, the church doesn't hurt people and forgive, you know, people hurt people and we're only human and all these defensive excuses and justifications and go straight into, okay, forgive, and you need to pray.

37:49

Now you need a release and you know, sometimes, depending on how far it is for people, you need, you know, demonic, freaking deliverance and that overarching abuse, um, and so there's no space for your humanity in that and that's what hurts me and angers me and fills me with rage because I've experienced it. So I feel that, on behalf of all the other people that are stuck in that still as well, that to feel and to process and to actually heal and restore and to find safety in the body and in our environments, and that's just not even allowed. You know, the conversation is not even allowed. It goes straight into oh, no, forgive, and move on and sweep under the rug and let's not tell anybody about it.

38:36 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, or it's used um, as like suffering, almost is used as like suffering is godly, almost like you know.

38:48

That just means that god is using you and doing a good work in you and I mean, I remember there used to be a song that I would play on repeat when I was struggling. That was like what if your blessings come through raindrops and your healing comes through tears? And you know what, if, like god's mercy, like your struggles, are God's mercies in disguise? And it's this notion that to be godly is to suffer, and that's a really, really messed up concept that does a lot of harm, that people just are not aware of. And if they are, then they are not letting people know, um, because, yeah, it very much, they would praise it.

39:38 - Charli (Guest)

They'd call it your job experience, you know, or very jovial it's like. And so then you're, you're actually gaslit into believing oh, oh yeah, I better be grateful now. Then, instead of you know, you're trying to express, oh, this is really hard for me, or whatever, but then you're instantly gaslit back into being like, oh no, I better be grateful for this. And now I'm like joe, but I better cry out even more and lean in even more and pray even more and tithe even more you know, and absolutely yeah it's, it's too, it's too much and it's stripping people of their humanity, that autonomy, the the true feeling of what they are feeling.

40:14

Um, I think it's so sad and just so so rampant, yeah absolutely what has helped you so far in your healing journey.

40:25

So many things but, um, like safety and and understanding that it's so layered in and of itself, understanding I'm worthy of safety. Knowing what safety actually feels like because you can think you're safe because like, oh, I'm here so I'm safe, but actually no. Knowing it's safe to feel, knowing it's safe to express, knowing it's safe to go to sleep at night and someone's not going to pressure you. You know, because the whole there's a whole sex side here to, yeah, being a woman as well.

40:59

You know, so just knowing that everything I do is safe and allowed and worthy. Um, there was a period where I felt incredibly lonely because I'm actually still single and you know, that's been conflicting for me, based on what I know, not necessarily what I want. So there's been some pressures where people are like, oh, you're still single, and there have been times where I have felt incredibly lonely and what happened for me in that loneliness is that I actually found peace and I live in this incredible rural property with I'm surrounded by like animals and trees and just nature and bird song and incredible things like that, so like safety and peace, like what a cocktail. Those are two things my body, physically, not just my mind and my heart, my healing, but my body had never felt so understanding and integrating safety and peace. And so as I, the more I've absorbed those, each time I haven't felt those, my awareness has really kicked in now and I'm like, whoa, this isn't peaceful, this is not okay for me, or I'm you're not a safe person, or this is not a safe conversation. So those are the biggest things. Is pursuing what they look like and feel like and mean to me, yeah, and then just so, so, so much somatic, um healing, and for me that included, like nutrients and supplementation, learning how my body actually works, learning about the fascia. Yes, getting massages um, you know, you can go to a gym and exercise if that's your thing, but for me that didn't do anything, whereas getting barefoot in nature, that kind of movement healed me, so connecting back to my ultimate creation. It made me feel like I'm a part of something now, like I belong.

42:47

I had been so shut down to even nature and trees you see this lush plant next to me. My whole life I've never had a pot plant. I know that sounds ridiculous. I've never had it. In fact, I had even been criticized and told you can't keep anything alive when I had children and in my head that meant I could never get a pet or a pot plant. So ridiculous, the level of what goes on, right, right. Anyway, I'm now surrounded with pot plants and I keep them alive and I'm surrounded with we've got a lot of pets my kids and I and I'm like, oh my God, I actually can do this. Like the fact anyone thought they had the right to say such shit to me. Yeah, so it was. It was that inside out job, the somatic work, and just giving myself that space to like connect with, I guess, holistic healers um and surrounding myself with nature.

43:38 - Sam (Host)

Nature's probably my biggest healer, yeah, getting in the walking on the ground, looking at the beautiful views yeah, nature is, um, something that is a common theme in terms of people who are coming out of a you know organized religion or to god or you know whoever it was. Um, it's what is around you. Um, I think I don't know who actually says it, but jane always quotes it um, and says that, um, that god is the ground of all being being and that it's everything around you. It's the nature, it's the water, it's the plants, the pets, the animals, it's all of that. And so I think, yeah, nature is a common thread for people. For the record, I actually can't keep plants alive.

44:50 - Charli (Guest)

But it's not about that. I have, um, I have, and you're not a bad person?

44:55 - Sam (Host)

no, exactly, so I just go with really beautiful dried floral arrangements. Um, yeah, I, you know, utilize other people's natural green thumb. Um, because I don't have it, and that's okay, it is, yeah. So, but yes, I think connecting to whatever feels authentic tends to be what, and I think, for most people, what feels authentic is whatever brings them back into their body, because it makes them feel present and I think you, you know, like you said, knowing something logically like knowing what safety looks like, is very different to knowing what safety feels like.

45:37 - Charli (Guest)

yeah, or what it should be like in our head but but then embodying that um.

45:43

Can I just quickly share another thing? Absolutely I. So when I left, I went out and got a tattoo. Yes, and I love tattoos and my whole life. I had actually been told you know, we know what we've been told um, so I couldn't get tattoos and I actually I actually just quickly trained to become a body piercer as well. After I left, I did six months learning how to do body piercing so cool anyway. So I've now got quite a few tattoos and I love them and they're really beautiful and you know, they're feminine and just me. And it wasn't until six months ago I got another little tattoo done and that was the first time in the last six years that I have felt the pain of a tattoo. And it's interesting because people are like, oh, you know, damn, like it's good that you couldn't feel pain Because, like I sat for this big one, I sat 10 hours straight, oh my having that.

46:33

And even the tattoo artist was like I need to tap out because I'm getting tired oh yeah, if people that is intense, yeah I was up there with the best of them, like picture these big men getting their gang tats, and I was like, out doing because I couldn't feel it. I loved the buzz, nothing hurt. I've got them in different places. And so six months ago and someone said to me, oh, you know, bugger, like that must have sucked, having the pain there, you know. And I was like, actually no, yeah, it's the first time my body feels safe enough to absorb the experience of what's happening to me and to be fully present and step into this. So to know that my body had been in such, um, you know, survival mode, yeah, and to not feel anything because I had been conditioned, you know, to just stop feeling everything, yeah, incredible healing experience. I loved it. I'm like, yeah, bring on the next one.

47:27

Like, absolutely it was only like a 40 minute tattoo and I was, like you know, actually feeling the pain and I spoke to my therapist about it at the time too, like just celebration post, because it's like wow, and because I had just been studying embodied processing too, so to know that I can feel somatically, I can feel and integrate, it was, yeah, beautiful oh, my goodness, that would have been.

47:51 - Sam (Host)

I mean, it's gonna make getting tattoo long tattoos a more lengthy process.

47:57 - Charli (Guest)

For you, lucky, it's a long one at the beginning and the high trauma, but, um, but what a.

48:02 - Sam (Host)

I mean what a wonderful way to have that realization. I mean it's almost like goosebump, worthy to sort of go. Oh, what a revelation almost to use like a word I wouldn't usually use, but what an amazing sort of realization that not just like it's a physical manifestation of your healing, like that's a really tangible manifestation of your healing, like that's a really tangible. Often we think healing is hard to quantify and but that's a really tangible measure, yeah, sign of healing. Um, okay, this is the last question I've been asking everybody, which is what are you, what word of wisdom, what message would you have for somebody who is fresh out of church, fresh in their deconstruction? They are just feeling all of the emotions all at once. What would you say to them? I'd say to them breathe, take a breath.

49:09 - Charli (Guest)

I would let them know gently that it is safe out here, even though you've been told it's not. It is safe out here. We will catch you. There are more of us here who you are like is so worthy of being lived. Yeah, so get out and live you, which includes heal, feel, pursue, untangle, detangle. You know, like know that who you're gonna meet, the you that you're gonna meet on the other side of this, you are gonna fucking love them and you are gonna live the most epic life.

49:48

So, breathe, inhale and take that step, baby. Yeah absolutely Trust your gut. Trust that gut and keep going even when it's hard. It will be hard. I can promise you that.

50:04 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely, there will be absolutely moments of hard. But you're right, there's a lot of us around now and it might feel insular, but there is a huge humongous community online now at people's disposal, which is a really beautiful thing.

50:25 - Charli (Guest)

Yeah, that's definitely an upside to the modern era of social media. Absolutely, you'll find your community online, yeah, and you'll find it in person too. Yes, but online on the late lonely nights. At two in the morning. Yeah, yeah, you will find your community and they will meet you on those posts, on those questions. Yeah, Absolutely.

50:48 - Sam (Host)

I love that and on that note, thank you, you it's been wonderful in my pleasure and my privilege and thank you for hearing and holding parts of my story yeah, I have, I love, I love what I get to do and, um, it is a real, uh, privilege, you know albeit you know it's difficult, because a lot of the things that people are talking about I've lived also but it is a real privilege to, you know, hold space for people's stories and it is about time those stories are amplified and spoken. About time those stories are amplified and spoken, that's, that's really um, that was really my goal of this, of this. My baby podcast, um, was to um, give voice to people who were silenced, um, for far, far too long. Um, yeah, beautiful.

51:48 - Charli (Guest)

So, thank you thank you for bringing it.

51:51 - Sam (Host)

Thank you thanks for tuning in to this episode of beyond the surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.