The Cult Survivor Who Wont Be Silenced

Sam: 00:00:00

FOREIGN.

Sam: 00:00:06

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work, the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders, past, present and emerging, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people.

I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today.

I recognize the deep connection that first nations people have to this land, their enduring culture, and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land.

Hey there and welcome to beyond the Surface, the podcast where we explore the stories of people who have survived religious trauma, left high control occult communities, and are deconstructing their faith.

Foreign I'm your host, Sam, and each week I'll talk with individuals who have taken the brave step to start shifting their beliefs that might have once controlled and defined their lives. Join us as we dig into their experiences, the challenges they've faced and the insights they've gained.

Whether you're on a similar journey or you're just curious about these powerful stories, you're in the right place. This is beyond the surface.

Sam: 00:01:27

Hey friends, just a quick note about this episode with Cheryl. The conversation features ongoing and pretty heavy conversation topics around child sexual abuse and suicidality.

Please take care while listening and of course, step away and take breaks when you need to. Welcome Cheryl. Thanks for joining me.

Cheryl: 00:01:47

Thanks for having me.

Sam: 00:01:48

I am excited about this episode because I feel like I've been on your podcast once and ever since I've pretty much thought that you are basically just this like badass, powerhouse, ex brethren person. So I'm excited to have you on the podcast. And so for a bit of context, where in the world are you at the moment?

Cheryl: 00:02:10

I am coming from Red Deer, Alberta, and on Treaty 6 and Treaty 7 land home to indigenous nations including the Cree, Blackfoot and Metis.

Sam: 00:02:20

Beautiful. I love when people do land acknowledgments.

I have it automatically in mine and I've had so many people I listen to other podcasts, particularly in Australia, and they don't do it. And so there is a beautiful special place for me when people do acknowledgements. So I love that. So thank you.

Okay, I like to start these episodes and I gave a little spoiler in when I was chatting about you as to like where you might be coming from in terms of your story. But where does your story start?

Cheryl: 00:02:52

So my story starts actually in a very small town in Saskatchewan called Maple Creek. So it was a very, very tiny town that I was born and raised in. And yeah, I ran away from the Exclusive brethren when I was 17.

Sam: 00:03:07

Okay, so what was, did you grow up in the exclusive? Like because like, I mean most people don't necessarily know. Like, I mean some might, but it's not a recruitment based group.

Like you're born into these groups and so what was life like up until that 17?

Cheryl: 00:03:27

So yes, you're definitely, you're, you're born into it. They don't recruit members.

Our family was on the bottom of the totem pole in the Maple Creek locality, which posed a lot of problems that many people who leave and survivors that I talk to in there have when you're on the bottom of the totem pole. So life for me was, it was filled with a lot of heartache, a lot of navigating very many different dynamics.

My dad had an accident when I was very young and due to that accident I had, I was placed in different families homes, which is what happens when you, when things happen. You don't go to other people's homes. And I had, I went through a lot of sexual abuse in there.

Sam: 00:04:23

You okay?

Cheryl: 00:04:25

Yeah. I just don't know what to say. It's. It was, it was a tough, it was a tough, tough road.

It was a tough road and honestly I actually wasn't even planning on leaving. When I was 16, we, our family went through a lot of priestly visits. A lot of priestly visits.

My dad was treated very poorly in there and due to his accident, his, his, his communication and the way that his personality side of his brain was damaged. So the way that he communicated to me, he was just very real.

He was very real and he probably was the most compassionate person that you would have found inside the Maple Creek community.

But due to the way that his accident affected him because, made him very vulnerable in the way that the brethren in that locality treated him and treated our family. So these priestly visits were very, very lengthy.

They were, they came all the time and to the point where when I was 16, one of the worst priestly visits that we had, I was finally at the stage where I can't do this anymore. Like, and for me taking, taking my life, I didn't look at it as suicide and I still to this day don't look at it.

That to me, it always comes up to me in this sense that I don't deserve this. So I'm going to go home. Yeah, that's how, that's how I've always viewed it. As I'm going home, I'm going to.

To a place where I can't be tortured like this anymore. And I had actually wrote a poem and my mom had found it and that stalled out what I was planning on doing.

And it took me a bit to kind of get back up on my feet. And I had noticed another young girl in the locality who was also struggling. And we befriended each other and we ended up leaving together.

And September 12th was actually 33 years this year that I've been out. And it's.

It's hard, I think, in the way that I can say it's been 33 years, but because of what I'm doing to help other people leave and because I'm so heavy into unraveling what happened to me in the last three years that it feels like I just left like six months ago.

Sam: 00:06:59

Right.

Cheryl: 00:07:00

Because that body, the body is constantly oozing out everything that had happened to me. And it's not just a quick one and done type of therapy that it's like, let's, let's talk about this. And it's done like my.

Because I'm such an emotional person and my body is just so full of what happened to me. It's just taken me.

It's taken a long time to get to the state where I can recognize what's trying to come up, be able to hold it and then be able to deal with it in a way that can kind of bring some regulation. And I mean, as you understand, right, that's not. It's a feat all in itself just to sit and hold the element of shame.

I think that's the one biggest thing that nobody talks about when it comes to CSA and child sexual abuse is the overloaded body reaction of shame.

And I have to say that I probably actually, I have to say that just in this last month, due to some things that have landed on my lap and people that have kind of come at me, really brought this shame to the surface for me to make friends with. And I tell you, holy shit, it is the hardest emotion to make friends with.

Sam: 00:08:31

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:08:32

Because our nervous system just wants to protect you. The nervous system just like comes in and it just wants to be like, no, like, we don't need to go there. We're gonna hold this.

And shame that comes from child sexual abuse is not the shame people feel when you say, you know, someone's ashamed or someone feels shameful. It's not the same type of shame. This shame comes from being violated.

This shame comes from having your innocence Literally ripped out of your body at such an early age. You know, So I really diverted on.

Sam: 00:09:11

That with, oh, that's okay. I'm just sitting here absorbing everything.

Cheryl: 00:09:15

You're. You'll say, I'm just like, I don't.

Sam: 00:09:18

Need to talk in this podcast, Cheryl. You can just go for it. Oh, I'm sorry. No, please don't apologize.

Cheryl: 00:09:27

So, like, what was my life like? I think I just. It's. It's hard because a child knows, like, you know, whether you have the space to divulge what is going on.

Sam: 00:09:42

Right.

Cheryl: 00:09:43

But at the same time, after I came up with what happened to me, I had people reach out to me that I haven't spoken to in, like, probably 25, 30 years.

Sam: 00:09:53

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:09:53

Who filled in pieces for me of things that they witnessed about me, things that they saw happen in my own home, of the reaction of what I was. Would have been going through. And so these pieces were very. They were very pivotal in me to be able to just pick myself up and be like, it's okay.

Like, it is okay to hold yourself. Let's go into this, because anybody you talk to about csa, nobody. Nobody wants to go and do a police report.

Nobody wants to come on a podcast and disclose what happened to you.

Sam: 00:10:32

Right.

Cheryl: 00:10:33

And I think that's the hardest thing when people challenge you. Right. Nobody does this for fun. Nobody does this to. I don't even have words. Just, nobody wants to do this.

It is the last thing I want to run and hide from this all the time. It's why I keep doing therapy, is because I have to train myself to stay in it. You have to stay in it. The only way out is through.

But it is so freaking hard to.

Some days, especially when you're up against not only a brainwashed family, but people around you that maybe see a change in you, that don't like to accept you changing.

Sam: 00:11:18

Yeah.

Sam: 00:11:19

And I mean, if we sort of, like, talk about that brainwashing and that indoctrination that happens, and it. It's different for everybody. And so I like to ask, like, what. What were you being taught, like, as a child? Like, the.

The actual, like, indoctrination and the brainwashing that occurred, like, what was that like for you as it was happening? Like, what was it that you were being taught?

Cheryl: 00:11:44

So I had. There was two parts to it. So for me, I had the sexual abuse part of the brainwashing, and then I had the priestly visit brainwashing, y.

Which overlapped each other, but tore it two pieces of me which Made me feel very caged in and isolated. So on the sexual abuse part, I was always told my perpetrator at the very beginning told me that he fixed children and I needed to be fixed.

And he also brought in that everything that I did was for my dad, that I was helping my dad. So you have to understand that at this point in time, my dad is very sick.

Sam: 00:12:33

Right.

Cheryl: 00:12:33

Like very, very, very sick from his accident. And to a little girl, you can only imagine what that was for me.

Sam: 00:12:43

Right.

Cheryl: 00:12:43

I, the only reason I stayed as long as I did in that, in that culture was for my dad.

And you know, you, once you have this insight into yourself and you start having self reflection and self awareness, you start realizing this unspoken bond I had with my dad, where it came from. Well, obviously how many years I was told that this is why I'm doing, what I'm doing is to help my dad.

Sam: 00:13:14

Yeah, right.

Cheryl: 00:13:15

And then on the other side of this, I had the priestly visit end of things, which was when I was caught doing something they didn't like, it was very much, you are going to be the reason that your family are put out of fellowship. Do you want that?

Sam: 00:13:34

Right.

Cheryl: 00:13:34

So in, in our case, it was always this very harsh brainwashing of you are the fault of something.

Sam: 00:13:43

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:13:45

And they use that on my mom, they use that on my dad. They use that on everybody. The last priestly visit wasn't the last person. The priestly visit I had at 16 was when everybody came to us.

All these priests came to us before a meeting. Normally the priests came after a meeting. This time they came before a meeting and it was to do on the subject of special friendship.

So obviously you're not allowed to have special friends in there. So if they see you hanging out with someone too often, that's considered a special friendship. And you're not allowed to have special friendships.

So this one particular priestly visit before this meeting was to do with special friendships. And my mom actually had the courage to stand up to them. And in that moment that she stood up, we were, we were shut up.

So shut up is the first part of excommunication because she overrode the head of the household, which was my dad, and that she was out of place. And I remember all of us sobbing our hearts out trying to find a way that we can get back. We were get back into fellowship, so to speak.

And it was this lengthy, drawn out priestly visit to where we knew we had passed the point of when meeting was supposed to start. And then they unshut us up. They revoked it because we had shown enough mercy and we were crying enough.

And then we had to walk into church that night with four priests and our family. Oh, totally. 110 intimidation factor, now that you look back on it.

Sam: 00:15:35

Right.

Cheryl: 00:15:36

Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:36

And I imagine, also humiliating. Like, there's a humility.

Cheryl: 00:15:41

So humiliating. Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:43

Like being escorted in by them.

Cheryl: 00:15:48

Yeah.

Sam: 00:15:49

Like, that's, I imagine, would have been very obvious as to what that was to everybody else and.

Cheryl: 00:15:56

Yeah, exactly. And that next morning. So that night I had decided, I'm like, I can't do this. I can't do this. I didn't have the words for it, though.

I just knew I couldn't endure what I was enduring any longer. And that next morning, the lead priest came to our house and he had said, like, I'm so sorry for what happened last night.

There's nothing I can do anymore. My hands are tied. I went to school that day. I wrote my poem and I knew, this is the day. I'm done. I'm going home. I'm like, I'm done.

I went on my paper route and my mom found the letter that. That poem. And I knew, like, you just freeze. And I'm like, I didn't have an alternative way because the pain was so deep in me.

To still stay living in this body was not an option in my mind. There was no way I was going to stay living in this body. There was just. I couldn't do it any long.

Sam: 00:16:56

Right.

Cheryl: 00:16:57

At this point, I'm not only having to navigate everything that happened to me in my life, but I'm navigating these constant priestly visits on top of it. And I've got nobody to talk to. And like, Sam, you understand, like, it's.

I think that one of the biggest things society suffers from is that we don't really understand what it takes to create a space for somebody to unpack something.

Sam: 00:17:24

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:17:25

And it's. I think it's probably the biggest thing that I'm.

The biggest thing that I'm suffering from right now is how to have empathy for humans who don't understand what you've been through, then judge you for what you've been through, for not saying what you've been through and then being like, why didn't you say something. Something when you did this?

Sam: 00:17:51

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:17:53

Like, I think, like, I just. I wish so badly that we had teachings on what trauma informed spaces look like.

Sam: 00:18:05

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:18:06

And that what it takes for somebody to utter the words of what happened to you.

Sam: 00:18:16

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:18:16

My first time I Even mentioned it to, like, when I screamed it at my parents, it would have been about probably 15 years ago. I had called them to tell them about things that were going on that I knew that they didn't understand.

They wouldn't have seen it that were going on inside there. And it escalated into a very. A very loud conversation to the point where I just screamed that Ellen raped me.

Sam: 00:18:42

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:18:43

And I didn't even know I was going to say that my body screamed it.

Sam: 00:18:48

Right.

Cheryl: 00:18:48

Because it was so I was in such a predicament of a fight with them that my body took the opportunity and it just came out of my mouth. I remember hanging up on them. I threw that house phone across the room and I just crumpled.

That was the first time I think I ever uttered the words I out loud to someone that I knew needed to hear it.

Sam: 00:19:11

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:19:14

So brainwashing, I think it comes in so many forms. And I think the priests in there, they really know how to work every angle they possibly can, especially in Maple Creek.

I mean, I'm going to speak from Maple Creek. Maple Creek is very much known for. For the horrific slaughtering of so many teens as young as 12.

Sam: 00:19:41

Right.

Cheryl: 00:19:42

That just got thrown out onto the street. So Maple Creek does have a bad rap for the priestliness that was happening there.

But if anybody, I mean, we released a podcast of an audio of somebody in the States who went through something very similar. And I always said that that was podcast 110. That's what I endured. That's what our family endured, was horrific tormenting like that.

I would get priestly visits on my paper route. My parents don't even know about some of the priestly visits I got.

Sam: 00:20:18

Right.

Cheryl: 00:20:19

I would have priestly visits and back alleys when I was on a paper route where this one brother, this priest would follow me and I knew where I knew. I went in this one time, went in behind this back alley. He followed me in there, and he was the one that covered up my perpetrator.

Sam: 00:20:36

What is it? I mean, and I'm sort of like diverting a little bit, but, like, what is it like for you to sit here and talk about it? Like, I just want like a.

Almost like a check in moment. Like, what is it like for you to sit and talk about this?

Cheryl: 00:20:53

It's hard. It's so hard. I don't think people realize how hard it is for me to do the podcast.

Sam: 00:20:59

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:20:59

Like, I don't do the podcast. For me. I don't.

Sam: 00:21:04

Right.

Cheryl: 00:21:05

I do. I do these podcasts because there's something inside me that just says, cheryl, don't stop talking.

Yeah, keep talking, keep talking and own how you feel. Own your tears, own the heart, own this, own it all because it's you.

Sam: 00:21:29

Right.

Cheryl: 00:21:30

I think the hard part that comes from it is the judgment.

Sam: 00:21:35

Right.

Cheryl: 00:21:35

It is the when. In my heart of hearts, in my heart I just want the pain to stop. I just want the pain everywhere to stop.

Sam: 00:21:45

Right.

Cheryl: 00:21:45

But it is a, I have a very naive, gullible sense of how easy this would be to fix and I'm not going to let that go because I think it's a part of me that is very sincere in the fact that if humans just realized what everybody was doing and that if you just took your ego and put it to the side and listen to every survivor, this would be very easy, I shouldn't say to fix but very easy to put on the table and then get the help everybody needs.

Sam: 00:22:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Cheryl: 00:22:21

So I, I talk because something inside of me tells me not to stop talking. And as hard as it is to cry, as much as I cry those tears, they wake up pieces of me.

My three year old gets to cry, my four year old gets to cry, my, my six year old gets to cry but they get pulled out of me by the stories that I hear.

Sam: 00:22:52

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:22:52

So there's a therapeutic piece in it that is very hard to navigate but at the same time there's healing in it.

Sam: 00:23:04

Yeah.

Sam: 00:23:05

I mean that phrase of like the tears wake something, wake parts of you is both simultaneously a heartbreaking and beautiful statement.

Like it's, you know, you've got to have the nuance to hold that statement because it's devastating of the cause of those tears but also it's beautiful that those parts of you are able to wake up and be met. Safety.

Cheryl: 00:23:32

Yeah, that's how I feel. Like that's, I think right now it's just navigating. And you'll understand this when some of those, when memories come sensory based.

Sam: 00:23:46

Right.

Cheryl: 00:23:47

When that's when you didn't have words for things.

Sam: 00:23:49

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:23:50

But you remember images that come through the sensory of the body.

Sam: 00:23:55

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:23:56

I think those are the toughest ones to navigate because my 3 year old self, the 4 year old part of me doesn't have words, the 6 year old does.

Sam: 00:24:05

Right.

Cheryl: 00:24:06

And the deepest, the deepest hurt within me is the sensory part. It is the sensory based memories.

Sam: 00:24:14

I sort of want to ask a question that's like adjacent but feels a little bit in the scheme of things mundane to ask but I'm going to anyway. Which is like. Because obviously we're talking about, you know, the Exclusive Brethren is a religious based cult.

And so who was God to you throughout all of this?

Cheryl: 00:24:34

I walk with that. With crutches.

Sam: 00:24:36

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:24:38

I very much walk with crutches. And I allow myself to walk with crutches.

Sam: 00:24:42

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:24:44

Because what Ellen put me through in my little girl mind, the amount of times I screamed out when I was drugged and not been able to move, nobody came for me. No parent and no God. I never felt it in my body, I never felt it in my heart. I never felt it in my mind.

So at 50 years old, I still walk with crutches. And I think that's why I yearn for justice so intensely. I think that's why I yearn for a breakthrough in every story that lands on my lap.

Because going through what you go through at such a young age and the effects that it still has on you at 50, it really makes you question.

Sam: 00:25:46

Right?

Cheryl: 00:25:46

It makes you question.

Sam: 00:25:48

Yeah.

Sam: 00:25:48

Right.

Cheryl: 00:25:49

So for me, I really rely on nature. I rely on the things that are tangible to me, like my husband, my friends. Nature is just a big, big, big one for me. Nature's just. It is my refuge.

It is just where I seek my peace. I'm not saying there isn't a God.

I'm just saying that my experiences and how the horrificness of what I went through and when I have to go through this in therapy and you have to really, even in the police report, when I sat there and did my police report, two days, nine hours, that the end of that, I cried. I cried to God and said like, how the hell do you allow something like this to happen? It should never happen to any child.

And it's rampant in this world.

And yes, I understand that there's things on this world that are meant for learning lessons, but I do not believe when someone tells me everything happens for a reason. You do not ever, ever say that to somebody.

Sam: 00:27:08

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:27:09

Who is at the hands of multiple people at a very young age.

Sam: 00:27:14

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:27:15

That doesn't happen for a reason.

Sam: 00:27:18

Yeah, I just, I think it's a. I think irrespective of the context that people are using it in, I just think it is a bypassory statement that just makes nothing better.

And the more horrific something is that someone is going through for them, the more that statement actually just re traumatizes and creates another layer of pain for that person. Um, and this is your story. And so you can say whatever about whatever God there might be, there might not be. You can say whatever you like, so.

But it is, like, it's such a. When someone slaps a spiritual layer onto.

Onto something, it hits a part of us that I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand just how hard that is to unlearn, unwire, and to not separate, but to sort of, like, distinguish against. It's.

Cheryl: 00:28:20

Yeah.

Sam: 00:28:21

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:28:22

And I have had moments, right. Like, I have had moments after I left the cult, Right. I did have moments where when you start unraveling that brainwashing, right.

And you get that first sense of freedom and self. I did. I. I did. I. I know. 100. Wow. Like, I've never been this close to God before. Like, this is what this feels like.

Sam: 00:28:44

Right.

Cheryl: 00:28:46

But I think. And maybe you can elaborate on this. Is this unraveling of things.

When you really unravel what happened to you, how you felt in that moment changes when you actually pick up your trauma and hold it and actually get back inside it. Because healing doesn't happen by giving a superficial outlook on things.

Healing happens when you actually pick up what happened to you and you get back inside it. But I think people don't understand of, like, how can Cheryl be. Well, you know, she had a Christian faith way back here. How can she not have it now?

Like, it's just. It's just. It's so hurtful. It is so demeaning and so hurtful that someone can't see. Maybe I was in a different place back then. Maybe I had.

Maybe at 19, 20, 21, I was in a different place than I am at 47, 48, 49, 50, when I picked my trauma up and decided to hold it.

Sam: 00:30:01

I just think. Yeah, people don't understand. I just think people don't understand trauma, to be fair.

I think, like, there is an overarching thing there that people just don't understand trauma. And probably an added layer of privilege thrown into that in. In regards to other people's trauma as well. And sitting with that.

It is so layered and so complicated. And I think people are just really historically really shitty at responding to other people's pain.

Cheryl: 00:30:35

Yeah.

Sam: 00:30:36

Because it's not about them. And that's.

Cheryl: 00:30:39

Yeah.

And like, in your expertise, like, have you, like, how you unravel trauma from, say, like, you know, 17, what I left to 47 when I started to open this up. I'm a different person.

Sam: 00:30:53

Yeah.

Sam: 00:30:54

And you are supposed to be like, that's human nature. You are supposed to be a different person. We are supposed to grow. We are supposed to evolve. We are supposed to change.

And, you know, Something that sits in our nervous system today is different to how it sits in our nervous system a decade ago. And that's actually what it's supposed to be like. It's not supposed to be exactly the same.

Sam: 00:31:22

Yeah.

Sam: 00:31:23

What. I mean, take us to that point when you were 17 and you actually left because you're also part of a group that demonizes the outside world. Right.

Like, there is that. Yeah. Mentality. And so I imagine there is. I mean, you're 17, so like, no 17 year old should have to know how to do that anyway.

But what is it like for you to navigate a world that had essentially been pitched to you as awful and evil and nothing good exists there? It was so scary. I can't even explain to you how scary it was.

Cheryl: 00:32:00

Oh, it was hard. It was hard.

I mean, I have to say, like, I had a very rebellious streak in me, which think say, so thank goodness I had that rebellious streak, because I think the rebellious streak in me actually gave me the courage and bravery to stick with it.

Sam: 00:32:19

Right.

Cheryl: 00:32:22

I used alcohol. So alcohol was my crutch.

Sam: 00:32:26

Right.

Cheryl: 00:32:26

Like, it definitely was. It was my crutch on meeting the world. I didn't understand how friendships worked. Like, I just. I had to support poor friends.

Like, friends that just didn't. Didn't know. I just didn't have the support. But you don't know what to look for. You don't know how to recognize what that looks like.

Sam: 00:32:45

Right.

Cheryl: 00:32:46

So for me, I stayed in Maple Creek for. There was. I think it was about a year I stayed in Maple Creek and then I moved to a city just outside of Maple Creek. My husband was my saving grace.

So he. I met him. I got pregnant when I was 19. Yeah. Like, I have to say, my husband was my. He was my angel that came and saved me. Like, and I. He knows that.

And, like, it's just the world needs to know that what that man has put up with. So I think me finding him, to me, that was divinely faded. Like 100. That was. I know Curtis was meant to be there for me.

Like, he picked me up right when I needed him. So navigating those firsts were really hard because we never left with anything.

Sam: 00:33:41

Right.

Cheryl: 00:33:41

And you slept in the corner of a. An apartment building in the court. We have nothing. We didn't have curtains. We didn't have pots or pans. We didn't have clothing.

We didn't have nothing.

Sam: 00:33:50

Right.

Cheryl: 00:33:51

Except our pedal bike. It was you. You learn. I'm still learning. I'm still learning.

Sam: 00:34:00

Right.

Cheryl: 00:34:00

And as I picked up my trauma. I had to learn all over again.

I had to learn what boundaries meant because I think boundaries is one of those things I've struggled with my entire life. But my boundaries were also obliterated at very, very young age.

Sam: 00:34:13

Right?

Sam: 00:34:14

Yeah, yeah.

Sam: 00:34:15

And even like, you know, there's that element. But you're in cult spaces and cult groups. Every relationship is boundaryless anyway.

So you are not taught boundaries in, in that sense aside, like, as well as all of the abuse that you had experienced and the boundary violations that were experienced, you are equally not being taught relationship boundaries. So no, I mean, my brain goes, no wonder it was hard to make friends.

No wonder those relationships were hard because you were never taught how to make them in the first place.

Cheryl: 00:34:53

I trusted too easy, right? That was my thing, is that I always just wear this is darn hard on the sleeve.

Sam: 00:34:59

Right.

Cheryl: 00:35:00

That thinks everybody has your best interest at heart. And that has been, I mean, still is one of my faults, right. Is that I trust too easy.

And I think the last probably six months have been a very rude, rude awakening within me on who, who is in my corner and who is not in my corner. And that came at an expense of a lot of tears and, you know, how, you know people that. I mean, I'm just an emotional person.

You know, when you're very emotional, how do we learn? We learn by getting our emotions crushed, right?

Until it hurts bad enough that you lay the, you draw that boundary down and you're like, okay, I no longer can do this. I no longer can. But then you feel guilty, right? To me, I just love to live in a world where everybody respects everybody, regardless of our beliefs.

And can we just like, let's keep the big picture in mind. Like, let's keep what word is we're working towards in, in mind.

Sam: 00:36:03

Right.

Cheryl: 00:36:04

To me, it's just the heart wrenching stories and conversations that I have with insiders. It is, to me, I guess it's just those are the people that need to understand what life is like out here and I want to give them those tools.

And it's heart wrenching to be like, you need to learn what boundaries are and that comes at the expense of learning what they are not.

Sam: 00:36:30

Yes.

Yeah, and that's a really good point because, like, you're not just not taught what they are, but you are usually actively, you know, experiencing what they shouldn't be as well. And so like, it's, it's. That dichotomy is such an important point.

I am curious whether it was like instinctive for you as you were coming out, Because I know so many people, and not just, you know, the Exclusive Brethren, but other religious based cults and things like that. But what was it that kept you supporting other people? Because I know so many people who cut that cord and.

And some who have that cord cut for them as well, but who don't want to be involved in ex member community spaces, who don't want to. To be in that space of supporting others come out because it's too hard and it's too painful. And so I'm curious what that was like for you.

Was there a transition period before you went into that, or was that quite automatic for you?

Cheryl: 00:37:38

No, I actually cut everybody off when I got. When I had my first baby. So I got pregnant at very young, and my husband. I got married and we stayed in this city just outside of Maple Creek.

But the. The stalking was. It was. It was awful. That was happening from members of the church. And so I moved.

When I left, it was Medicine Hat that I was living in. When I left Medicine Hat and moved to Red Deer where I am now, I cut off Everybody.

I went 30 years without talking to anybody other than I cut into contact with my uncle who ended up finding me. And again, that was another scary experience that when you asked me, like, how did I.

How was it for me with meeting other people when my uncle came to find me, I was petrified because I had been taught he was this evil man. And so he found me and he was this like, sweetest, sweetest person I had. I couldn't believe he was my uncle.

And I'm like, wow, again, you know, he had the same perpetrator as I did. And he was. Yeah, he was just this most beautiful human. I forgot we were talking about before that we were going somewhere. Oh, yes. So sorry.

Sam: 00:38:58

My ADHD brain usually forgets the question I asked as soon as I asked.

Cheryl: 00:39:01

Exactly. So, yeah, so like, I went 30 years. 30 years without pretty much talking to anybody, right. And it wasn't until I was. We were sitting.

My husband and I were sitting and watching tv, and he saw this. The Breaking Brethren documentary. Come on, T. Like, wow. Like, like we watched it. So then I went straight to starting.

I just started googling and I found the audio. The Richard Marsh that he was hunted, right. He was when the Brethren were hunting him. I listened to that and I'm like, holy crap.

Like, I actually might have a landing pad to like actually come forward with what happened to me. Because now we've got everything out, like this is the first time I had seen anything like this.

So I found out who writ where Richard Marsh was on social media, messaged him and he was the one that, you know, actually like, you know, talked to me about going to the police, like doing all this stuff. I was wanting to go on to the podcast. I went and did this podcast in between my two day of the police report. And I think something just lit in me.

Someone showed me a picture of my brother and his, his, his daughters and I couldn't, I could, I just couldn't like conscious like it to be in good conscience. I could not, not do it.

Sam: 00:40:31

Right.

Cheryl: 00:40:31

So I also didn't know what this was going to do. I had no clue what this was going to open up. Never in a million years did I think this was going to open up. But it's opened up, right.

We're three years into this and I spent two hours on the phone the other night talking to a female inside there. Like we both sobbed her faces off with what she was going through.

Sam: 00:40:54

Right.

Cheryl: 00:40:55

So I think it was very much my nieces that triggered it for me. I couldn't in good conscience, five years down the road have them come knocking on my door and given me the same story that happened to me.

And living with that, there was no way I could live with that.

Sam: 00:41:17

Yeah, I mean like you, I mean you say like I couldn't in good conscience, but also that's like one of the hardest fucking things for someone to do.

Like it is, it takes an immense level of bravery and courage to, to do and to go down the path of what should land injustice, but for so many doesn't. That's an immense level of bravery and courage and energy.

Cheryl: 00:41:47

It is, it. There's, I mean, I've. This last six months, I've almost quit this many, many times.

I think it's the emotional toll of the politics that go on behind scenes. I think it is. I feel sometimes that I want to just go pick these people up, especially when they're teenagers. It's super, super hard.

And I'm not gonna lie, like a couple weeks ago, I had probably the biggest crash I've ever had in my life. Like, it was, it was, it was like I felt like every bone in my body broke with emotion.

And it was my oldest son who came to me and he, he actually pleaded with me to stop doing what I do for my own sanity, but also for the sanity of our family. Yeah, I won't do this forever. I won't. But I have to go until I feel like the fight in me has finished what she feels like she needed to finish.

Sam: 00:42:59

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:43:00

And whether that is something within me, whether that is something that I see breakthrough on the outside, whether that is something that breaks through within insiders, I don't know what that is. I just know that I'm not done.

Sam: 00:43:13

Right.

Cheryl: 00:43:14

And I have the only thing I can trust. I gotta trust my gut.

I have to trust my gut, I have to trust my heart because my gut and my heart will tell me when I need to stop doing what I'm doing.

Sam: 00:43:27

Yeah.

Sam: 00:43:29

What was the process like for you to even recognize what your gut was saying? Because in these places, like, you know, intuition is not something that's talked about.

And in, you know, in some, some faith based spaces, it's, you know, it's spiritualized instead. And so it's talked about but with a spiritual language.

But even just that process of being able to recognize what your intuition is saying, let alone follow it and believe it and do what it's suggesting, that's quite a process, right?

Cheryl: 00:44:05

Therapy?

Sam: 00:44:06

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:44:07

I have done therapy for years and years and years.

Sam: 00:44:12

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:44:13

Therapy is my lifeline. Like, I cannot stress that enough.

Sam: 00:44:20

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:44:21

Anybody who is struggling with religious trauma, child sexual abuse, anything, go find yourself a therapist.

Sam: 00:44:31

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:44:31

It's. You will never get to the place you need to get to without therapy. It has been my therapists that have been my spotters.

They have been the ones that have helped me unravel what my body is really saying. Because my brain is being brain. My brain is brainwashed still. I still is brainwashed.

Sam: 00:44:54

Right.

Cheryl: 00:44:54

It's why it took me so long to come up with what happened to me. Like I wasn't just brainwashed from the priest, I was brainwashed from what had happened to me.

So I had to go through like every time I'm in therapy, I, I can tell now what is brainwashing coming from indoctrination of their cult. And what is brainwashing indoctrinated from what happened to me?

Sam: 00:45:19

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:45:20

And so the more I allow my emotions to express itself and to drop in and not run is the more my gut and my intuition speak to me.

Sam: 00:45:31

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:45:32

It's not clean. It is not a clean sight at all. We are in the messiest times ever right now.

But the thing therapy has taught me is that every emotion paves a path to who we are.

Sam: 00:45:51

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:45:51

It just does. It just. I am living proof that you can live through some of the strongest suicidality.

I am living proof that you can live through some of the Strongest grief. And I am living proof that no matter how much your soul was raped from you, you can find a reason to live.

Sam: 00:46:15

Yeah.

Sam: 00:46:18

I almost just like, don't want to say anything after that, but I need to. It's like there's a fight in me to go, like, don't say anything after that.

But I mean, I do want to talk about grief because, you know, we often will about, you know, that religious trauma work is grief work. There's so much. And that grief is so layered.

But there was a moment, and I was going to ask it earlier on, but I got sidetracked, the moment where you said that other people were pointing these things out to you from that they noticed when you're a child and, and, and things like that. And I go, is that, is there an element of layered grief to that? Because those people are noticing things and they didn't say anything.

And, and so, like, what is. What has the grief journey and the grief story been like for you? Because she's complex based.

Cheryl: 00:47:14

She's so complex.

Sam: 00:47:16

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:47:16

All of my therapy up until three years ago has always been grief based.

Sam: 00:47:22

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:47:23

Grief has been the one that took me to, to every suicide door I've ever walked through. And this type of grief just. It bottoms you out. It's such hopelessness.

Sam: 00:47:39

Right.

Cheryl: 00:47:41

And I think grief for me comes down to my mother.

Sam: 00:47:46

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:47:47

Because I'm a mom. I just don't know how. And my mom is a very compassionate mother, a very compassionate mother who took care of everybody else, too.

I just don't know how she was able to not do what she needed to do because of. And I know my therap. I just had therapy on Thursday night over this. So I'm. You know what? I'm actually just. I'm just gonna actually say something. I'm.

I'm just, I'm just gonna do this. I. I knew if the door opened, the door is going to open.

So my husband actually was just in Maple Creek a couple weeks ago for a court case from my perpetrator son, and he actually went to my perpetrator's doorstep. My husband's a very, very brave man. Yeah. He's so compassionate. He's just so compassionate. Right. So he's.

I mean, I think that's why we've been together for 30 years, is because we just, we both have that same, very. Wear the heart on the sleeve.

Sam: 00:48:58

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:49:00

And a lot of stuff was discussed in this six minute visit to the point where my perpetrator actually said that he knew he needed to get help for the people that he's harmed. He actually said that he was sorry. He said, tell Cheryl I'm sorry. I listened to this audio.

It was the hardest audio I've ever listened to because in this audio I had to relive the sick man. The sick man that is. I didn't do anything. And then in the next breath was like, I know I need to get right. I didn't do anything.

I'm sorry for what I did to Cheryl. I didn't do anything. But yes, admits to hurting multiple women. My husband then took this to my family, played it for them.

And I'm sitting in a space right now where there's such an opportunity for justice. Obviously this recording went to the police. And yes, it's, it's admissible in court, but I'm not, I don't care about the court case.

I don't, that's not, that's never been my agenda. My agenda is I experienced what this man did to me and he needs to be in an institution.

Like, like I, like, I don't, I just don't understand where what we're humans cannot process and grasp their brain to think, we don't want this on our streets. I'm not asking for him to go to jail. Let's. Can we rehabilitate something like this?

Like, I don't get how humans just don't understand why we don't want to put our energy into rehabilitating people. Like what has he been through? What is his father been which his father did something to my grandfather.

Sam: 00:51:08

Right.

Cheryl: 00:51:08

So this is a systemic issue in this family. And so I'm sitting in a space right now where I'm waiting to hear back. I'm waiting to hear what my parents are going to do about it.

I'm waiting to hear my brother who said he's going to fight tooth and nail for me. What's going to happen about this? Because I've had radio silence for two weeks.

And so when we talk about grief, let's talk about three year old grief. My three year old self has been sobbing her heart out for two weeks.

Sam: 00:51:46

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:51:48

Because my three year old part of me is like, my mom is going to finally come and rescue me. Now my 50 year old self wants to go inside my body and be like, it's okay, I got you.

Sam: 00:52:03

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:52:04

But my three year old self only wants her mother.

So grief is just, it's a dragon you gotta learn how to ride and definitely get yourself a therapist to ride it because you like you, you have to have a therapist to ride this dragon.

Sam: 00:52:29

Oh, my goodness.

Cheryl: 00:52:31

And I think my message to people who have suffered from childhood sexual abuse is your body is your guide.

Sam: 00:52:44

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:52:45

And it hurts to get into it. It hurts so bad to get into your body. But your head is not going to save you. You have to get into your body.

Your body is where you truly, truly meet the pieces of you. And you're gonna see yourself through a completely different lens. People are gonna say, you've changed. People are going to say, who is this person?

My kids see me cry every single day like they did all those years ago, and I have to remind them, these are healing tears.

Sam: 00:53:20

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:53:20

This is not me crying because I hadn't addressed what went through to me through. Because I hadn't addressed what happened to me. These are tears because I'm sitting in what happened to me.

Sam: 00:53:32

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:53:33

And I have to cry these tears. And so I get hugs for my kids all the time now that I keep on explaining that.

Sam: 00:53:39

Right.

Cheryl: 00:53:39

And I'm sure it's hard for them, but it's also a good lesson for them to understand that me crashing on a floor, banging the floor, screaming at the tops of my lungs when I'm 50 years old because I'm crying for my mother, that's okay.

Sam: 00:53:56

Yeah. Yeah.

Sam: 00:54:00

I mean, I think just like humanizing ourselves for people is so powerful and humanizing pain.

And I, like, I sit here and my heart breaks for you, and also my heart feels such warmth that you are in a space where you can feel and experience and embody and, you know, all of that beautiful. Those beautiful parts that come from recovery. I don't love the word healing. I use it because it's. It works and people understand it.

But recovery feels far more lifelong, and that feels far more relevant and relatable for a lot of people. This is, like you said, it's not one and done. This is ongoing. And it's just. Oh.

Cheryl: 00:54:53

It's also learning how to create refuge for yourself and safety for yourself.

Sam: 00:54:58

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:54:58

And I think that that's what I've had to learn in those last couple months, is that not everybody wants you to feel safe. Not everybody is there to give you a safe space. And some.

Those are some of the hardest lessons, because in order for me to navigate what I'm navigating, I need every single person in my tribe right now to be offering me a safe space.

Sam: 00:55:23

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:55:24

I need everybody around me to understand that when I'm crashing, that it's okay and you don't need to fix me. You don't need to do anything. Just give me a hug.

Sam: 00:55:35

Yeah.

Sam: 00:55:35

Right?

Sam: 00:55:36

Yeah.

Sam: 00:55:37

I think that's so. I. I almost, like, want you to say it again because it's so important.

I remember being asked on another podcast, like, what do, like, survivors need to hear? Or. And one of the things that I said was, like, they. You don't need a solution. Right. Like, we just need. We just need presence and.

And warmth and affirmation and belief. And we don't. We don't need solutions to. To problems that, you know, they can't. They can't fix. It's not about fixing. And so I.

Refuge is a beautiful way to phrase that. I love that. That's beautiful. And I imagine you are creating that space for other people as well.

And that imagine would be a really beautiful yet, like, painful experience. Like hearing other people's stories and sitting with them.

Cheryl: 00:56:37

It is hard because I don't ever get a break from my trauma. There's no relief. I am learning how to shut my phone off more, but I'm like, otherwise, it just goes like, from 6am till 6am There is.

There is this beautiful bittersweet healing that happens when two survivors cry together. And I experienced this. Like, I experienced this a lot.

I think it's one of the reasons why I can't walk away from what I'm doing is because comforting another survivor that I know is still inside the brethren, there's just. I. It's hard to put words to what it is that you experience when you cry together, because we're not even really putting words to what we're feeling.

We're just sitting there and crying together. She knows that I know what she's feeling, and I know she knows what I'm feeling.

Sam: 00:57:37

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:57:38

And we need more of that on this planet.

Sam: 00:57:42

Right.

Cheryl: 00:57:42

Because there's just. There's just this unspoken platform that hasn't been developed yet for the emotion of shame that comes with sexual abuse.

Sam: 00:57:54

Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:57:57

And people think that it's the same shame we feel in Day to Day, and it's not.

Sam: 00:58:02

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:58:03

It lives in our body.

Sam: 00:58:06

Yeah.

Cheryl: 00:58:07

And it is the hardest thing to walk through.

Sam: 00:58:09

Yeah.

Sam: 00:58:10

Yeah. And I think, you know, the. It's almost like dual collective energy when you sit with someone who gets it, that it doesn't need to be spoken.

It's like, it's. It's almost like. I'd almost consider it a form of co regulation in. In a sense that you are sitting with someone who gets it.

There is like an energy in the space knowing that words are not necessary right now. And that's both equally, like you said, a. It's a bittersweet experience.

Cheryl: 00:58:44

Yeah. There very much is an energy exchange that happens.

It is powerful when two people with that deep of grief come together and cry together without any words. Oh, there's such an interplay that happens where you heal together. I mean, that's what I loved group therapy. I loved group. My husband hates it. I, I.

Any kind of grief group therapy workshop. I went and did it because there was such a powerful element to sitting and crying with a group. Group of people that got you. You felt seen.

And I think that's the biggest thing that I struggle with. I mean, I'm sure lots of people who have been sexually abused feel, feel this is that you.

In, in everything that you do day to day, there's a certain element that of you that always feels unseen, unheard, not validated.

And so when a group of people come together in a similar wound, there's this element where everybody sees everybody and there's no words that have to happen. Everybody is feeling each other's pain. There's just this magical element of regulation that happens.

Sam: 01:00:03

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think it's also, it's one of the reasons why, you know, we don't necessarily ascribe to the fact that people who work with religious trauma need to have lived experience, but we also recognize that, you know, I've therapy with a therapist who has their own religious trauma. And it's different. Like, it is just different. Like there's a lack of explaining and education that needs to happen in those spaces.

And I think that that's part of the power of group therapy as well. And group support systems is you, you're not having to explain the little things. You're not having to educate.

You're not having to do that mental energy and that mental and emotional load. You actually get to just be in that space and to receive in that space and not be always giving.

And I think that that's also so such a beautiful aspect of those spaces. So I'm not surprised that you went to all of the things.

Cheryl: 01:01:00

Yeah, you know what? That is beautiful how you said that. Because there is something when you decide, when you truly decide, like, I'm going to. I better break.

I'm going to break the can of worms open. The exhaustion that comes from having to come to somebody and explain to you what has happened. There's you just. I. And I think again, this is just.

There's things that I have been going through in this last Couple months where I realized the lack of education society has when it comes to speaking out about what happened to you. Because you cannot just go to somebody you've never met and be like, this is what happened to me.

Sam: 01:01:49

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:01:50

Or you cannot go to somebody that you haven't talked to or that you've never had an intimate conversation with and be like, this is what happened to me.

Sam: 01:01:58

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:01:58

It does not happen like that.

Sam: 01:02:01

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:02:02

Like, even before I did my podcast with James D. Fiore, I had probably three conversations with him, building trust with him. He confided in me, and had he not confided in me with what he had been through, I probably would have never done that podcast.

Sam: 01:02:17

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:02:18

There was this, like, amongst. Like, I'm, like, he gets me. He's a safe space, and I can do it. But I think people just. That's. That's the biggest question.

Why did you not say anything? Why did you not say anything when this happened? Why did you not say anything when you wrote this? Why did you not do this?

And I think the ignorance that comes from people that cannot put themselves in just the actual terminology of sexual abuse is horrific on society. And I say that with the passion inside me, because it is why people do not come forward. Because people come.

Don't stop to think, what could have happened to this girl? What could have happened? Can I put myself in her shoes? And what space would she need to be able to unfold what she needs to unfold?

Sam: 01:03:16

Yeah.

Sam: 01:03:18

I think also it's just like. Like what. We're asking the wrong questions. Like, they're asking the wrong questions. It's not, why did they not come forward?

Why did they not speak up? Why didn't you say things earlier like, why are we not asking the question of, like, why are they doing it in the first place? Why are we allowing.

Cheryl: 01:03:34

Exactly.

Sam: 01:03:35

To let this happen? Like, why are we allowing, you know, systems to protect this? Not just allow it, but to protect it and to. And to shield it.

I think they're the questions that need to be asking and they're not being asked nearly enough. And it doesn't help when we have people like that at the top of food chains. So it doesn't. Like.

Cheryl: 01:03:59

Right.

Sam: 01:04:00

Like government food chains. That doesn't help. Of course they're not asking those questions. You'd have to ask them upwards. And that's.

It's a power dynamic that society is not used to.

Cheryl: 01:04:13

Yeah.

Sam: 01:04:14

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:04:14

There's a lot of systems that are broken for this. But I do. I do believe, like, I like this Is again, this is where. I mean, I get. I get told I'm naive. I get told I'm gullible, and I'm.

Okay, I. I own those words because my naivety, being naive and gullible lets me believe that there is a way that we can build a society that creates a safe refuge for people who have suffered from child sexual. Sexual abuse. I believe it from any kind of abuse. I still. I do. I firmly, firmly believe that there is enough.

Sam: 01:04:52

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:04:53

Humans on this planet that know how to wear their heart on their sleeve.

Sam: 01:04:56

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:04:57

That know when you come with your heart, when you come just full force with that heart, enough of us, things will change. I. And I'm just gonna continue believing that and nobody's gonna pop my bubble.

I'm like, you know people all the time like, your parents are never going to do anything with this audio. Your parent, like. And I'm like, you know what? I'm just. I'm just gonna stay in this little naive bubble. And I'm like, they are. Yes, they are.

I mean, I understand that they're brainwashed. I totally get that. But I truly believe that nothing can override a mother's roar. I do.

I truly believe that in my heart and soul that I think that it just takes time.

Sam: 01:05:43

Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:05:45

That's what I'm going with anyhow.

Sam: 01:05:48

We're gonna go with that anyway. Okay. I wanna. I want to ask a question in the lead into what is my final question in all of these episodes?

But I want to shift gears for a moment because we've talked a lot about the pain and the difficulty and the challenges of coming out of the exclusive brethren.

What about the joy and the peace and the freedom and the beauty and what has that been like to be able to laugh and to have fun and to embrace the beauty as well.

Cheryl: 01:06:27

So it is a tougher one for me.

Sam: 01:06:29

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:06:32

I think in this last bit with my therapist finally starting to feel what true joy feels like. But that true joy has only come up since I have held shame.

Sam: 01:06:47

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:06:50

And obviously I am so grateful to not be under indoctrination.

Sam: 01:06:57

Right.

Cheryl: 01:06:57

I get to do the things I want to do. I get to, you know, let my children explore the world the way that a world is meant to be explored.

You know, if I want to, you know, go out kayaking in the middle of the day on a Sunday, I get to go out kayaking in the middle of day on Sunday. I'm not adhered to any rules and regulations other than what I place on myself and what I let others place on me.

So in that sense, the freedom is incredible. The freedom is literally what we do this all for. Yeah.

I think when it comes to childhood sexual abuse, the joy that we know we can experience comes from when we actually learn how to sit in what happened to us.

Sam: 01:07:45

Right.

Cheryl: 01:07:45

And that is when this true organic joy has. Has come and erupted. Like, I just did therapy on Thursday. It was one of the best sessions I ever had.

And I just, like my body, from the tips of my toes to the top of my head, giggled for no apparent reason. Just giggled. I love that in 50, I'll be 51 at the end of October. And it was the first time in my entire life I have ever experienced that emotion.

Sam: 01:08:16

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:08:17

It was incredible. It made me feel like a little kid.

Sam: 01:08:20

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:08:22

So, you know, like, I get to get the therapy that I would have never got in there.

Sam: 01:08:28

Right.

Cheryl: 01:08:28

Like you. I just, I. Because of my own personal experience, I just know I would not be the person I am today.

I would not be able to have the movement I have today if I had not done therapy. It was actually my husband who dropped me off at the hospital one day and was just like, here you go. First introduction. Right. Literally.

And it was my first introduction to therapist therapy. I mean, I had to really search for the right therapist.

Sam: 01:08:57

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:08:57

And the therapist I have today is very different than the therapist that I've had before these last three years. These last three years, I've had a different therapist. Various somatic experience therapist. And, you know, it's very much. It's different.

It's very different. It's getting into the body, emdr art. All those things that really help us get into the body and be able to unwind those patterns of tension.

Sam: 01:09:18

Right.

Sam: 01:09:18

Yeah.

Sam: 01:09:19

Oh, beautiful.

Sam: 01:09:21

Yeah.

Sam: 01:09:22

And I mean, doing those things, you know, leads to what we want, which is that embodiment of, like, everything working the way that it's supposed to and integrating everything. And so I love that. The giggle story just, like, warms my heart. It's just. It's beautiful. I love that. Okay.

I like to finish episodes with some encouragement for people. And so what would you say to someone.

And I imagine you are saying these types of things quite often to people, but what would you say to someone who is fresh in unpacking this stuff? And I'm potentially going to gear it more to other CSA survivors.

And what would you say to them who are stepping into that recovery journey for themselves for the very first time?

Cheryl: 01:10:17

You are worth it. You are worth it. No matter how much that Shame tries to tell you you're not. You are worth it.

Yeah, it's not easy, but it is so bittersweet when you finally get to take your body back, because that is what holds us back, is that your body is still owned by the trauma and those that harmed you.

So when you firmly start telling yourself that you are worth it, you start making friends with all of that dysregulation and disassociation that's happening inside you, and it's just, get yourself a therapist. And I know you're in there, but I'm here.

Like, I mean, I've had so many people that reach out to me about childhood sexual abuse and sexual abuse that they're. They're. They're going through. I obviously can't get to everybody all the time, but I. Those are at the top of my list.

I will rule out everybody else I'm going to talk to in a day, and I strictly go to my sexual abuse survivors because they are the ones that need to be heard. They are the ones that need to be held.

They are the ones that are battling an unspoken fight that so many of society, so much of humanity does not understand. That fight. But I just want to tell you, you are so worth it.

Sam: 01:11:53

I'm not gonna say anything after that. I'm just gonna let that sit because there is nothing that I could say after that that would even add any benefit.

So I am just going to say thank you for being here and thank you for sharing so vulnerably and so openly.

And I have absolutely no doubt that anybody who listens to this episode is going to simultaneously have so much warmth towards you because you are just beautiful and an absolute powerhouse. And, like, I'm mirroring what I said at the beginning, and I firmly agree that it is still there.

And also, just, you know, thank you so much for the work that you do, but also just being here and sharing your story, I appreciate it.

Cheryl: 01:12:48

Thank you. Sam, you are such a beautiful human that I probably wouldn't have been able to be this vulnerable with anybody else.

So I'm like, I've had to cancel so many podcasts. This last one, I'm like. I kept Sam's. I'm like, I. She's. You're just such a beautiful human. You get it.

You know how to just have that warmth, and you just embody what. What every Survivor is looking for. So thank you.

Sam: 01:13:13

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. Okay, let's finish. Thank you.

Sam: 01:13:19

Yeah.

Cheryl: 01:13:20

Thank you. Thanks, everyone.

Sam: 01:13:25

Thanks for tuning in to this episode. Of beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did.

If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media.

Sam: 01:13:42

For updates and more content.

Sam: 01:13:44

I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter what, where you are on your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward.

Sam: 01:13:56

Take care.