Purity Culture 101 with Meg Cowan

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there, and welcome to this special bonus episode of Beyond the Surface.

01:03

In these episodes, we take a break from the personal stories and I get to chat with experts on all things related to religious trauma, cults and deconstruction. These conversations are foundational and educational. They provide deeper insights and understanding into the complexities of the experiences we hear in the stories. Whether you're just beginning your journey this is the first episode you're listening to, or maybe you're looking to expand your knowledge in general, these episodes are packed with valuable information that will help you navigate wherever you are. I'm your host, sam, and this is Beyond the Surface. Welcome, meg. Thanks for joining me Hi.

01:46 - Meg (Guest)

Thanks so much for having me.

01:47 - Sam (Host)

I'm excited to be back I know, I'm so excited to have you back. Obviously, this is going to be a bit of a bonus episode for everybody listening. We're going to be talking all things, purity culture. But before we get started, who are you, meg, and where in the world are you?

02:03 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah right, I am in Aotearoa, New Zealand so not too far from Australia for those of you who don't know the area and I am a sexologist, a sex and relationship coach, and I work particularly with people who've come through what we call purity culture, which is what we're going to unpack today.

02:24 - Sam (Host)

And I am going to throw you a question which I know you're going to unpack today. And I am going to throw you a question which I know you're going to be okay to answer, but I didn't actually write it before we get into what purity culture is. Why is this something that you're passionate about?

02:38 - Meg (Guest)

yeah, yeah, okay. So, um, I lived through purity culture. I lived through this cultural phenomenon, which you know we're going to unpack, and it was my experience of learning or not learning about sex, relationships, all of those things, my body, and so it's something that I lived through and then obviously had to do a lot of work and healing from, and so I'm super, super passionate about people getting really good, comprehensive education about sex, about their bodies, about relationships.

03:12 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, so, born out of my own story, really, and if those who are listening have not listened, meg's story came out just last month, so please go back and listen to that. It's a wonderful episode, um. And. And then come back and listen to this and it will give so much more context, um. Okay, so let's start with what is purity culture?

03:35 - Meg (Guest)

yeah. So purity culture is a big term and you might have heard it in a range of different ways, but I want to talk about it really with an evangelical, christian kind of lens. So historically, obviously we know that women have often been viewed as property and purity was seen as something that was quite important for lineage and for inheritance, and so women were ideally meant to be virgins at marriage and that was what secured an inheritance or a, you know, a family dynasty and those sorts of things. So you can see it generally and back in history in those sorts of ways and and still in in parts of the world that still is a, you know, a thing that's at play, um. But then what we see is through the history of the Christian church, we have this interesting thing called aestheticism. That starts to happen in the early church and this is where you start to see purity of the body and mind and spirit and lots of conversations around that.

04:36

So if we look at Saint and this is a bit of background and then we'll come to it in modern day but as a background, if you think about um saint augustine, he was one of the he's known as one of the fathers of the christian faith. Really interesting guy. Um, he said some, I guess some nice things, but he said so also. You know some quite problematic, challenging things as well interesting is a really interesting word to use.

05:04

Yeah, yeah, he's interesting. I mean like just for reference.

05:08 - Sam (Host)

St.

05:08 - Meg (Guest)

s, post-war,: 1950

06:50

Um, we've got the AIDS epidemic of the 80s that have there's all these cultural phenomenon and things that start to happen as we come towards the 80s and the 90s. Um, coupled with that, we've got a big political movement in America where the moral majority is mobilized on issues around birth control and abortion, pro-life, all those sorts of things. So what you find when you get to the 80s and the 90s is there is this cultural surge of things that have come together and the church is starting to say how do we respond to all of these things? They've been grappling with it as they're dealing with hippies and the free love movement and, um, you know there are unwanted pregnancies. How does the church respond to that? We've got substance abuse issues, is it, you know, as drugs are on the scene with the hippie movement as well. So there's all of these things happening and the church starts to respond, or it responds to those things with what we now know as purity culture.

08:02

Um, so this comes through with like focus on the family content, um, talking about what is the right kind of way to raise a family and have a marriage and have a relationship, and those sorts of things. Um, we've got josh harris's book I kiss dating goodbye. Uh, we have got the true love weights movement, but it was particularly in america. It was bigger than just the church's response and what the church was telling christians to do, because there was billions of dollars I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember I think it's 1.5 billion US dollars of federal funding over 26 years went into abstinence, only sex ed.

08:48

So this is now not just a church phenomenon, this is actually a wider, larger national thing that's happening in America. And why I'm talking about America is because so many of our resources that we got in other countries came through America and we also had in the 80s the beginnings of the internet being widespread and in everybody's homes and we had obviously television, that was, we were getting more broadcast and a lot of those were driven by America and so that's a big, that's a big spiel to kind of give you the setup on what purity culture is um, I am thankful that I never had to read I Kissed Dating Goodbye, but, uh, the book the Bridewool White was the one that really, like put its grips.

09:40 - Sam (Host)

Um, but I'm wondering whether, uh, purity culture is not just about sex. So, like, purity culture obviously is is much more broadly encompassing of what purity means in terms of its dynamic, and so I'm wondering whether you can speak to that a little bit and perhaps give a bit of an idea of what purity culture actually looks like yeah, yeah, you're right, it's not just about sex, um, it's also about how women were expected to present themselves.

10:16 - Meg (Guest)

So we see intersections with diet culture there. Um, it's about who was responsible for, um, lust and behavior and things like that. It was what does a good marriage, good wife, good husband look like? So there's these very stereotypical ways that men and women were expected to show up. It's about how do we relate to other people of other genders? We relate to other people of other genders so, um, as women, you know, don't be in a, don't be in a room with the door closed with men, because you know it's dangerous. It was the billy graham rule, um, so it is much broader. It affects platonic relationships even. It affects how we feel about our bodies, it affects how we raise families, and this is all talking from quite a heteronormative point of view as well, because that was a big part of purity culture is that it was a very heteronormative narrative, and so you know, if you were part of the LGBTQ plus community, there really wasn't any space given for that discussion at all.

11:26 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, um, so it's much, much broader and has some really, really far-reaching effects in lots of areas of people's lives I think, um, I think sometimes I find it easy to describe it for people who don't know anything about it as purity culture is almost it's an ideology and it's a, it's a like, it's a belief system in itself, almost, um, and there is just a lot that comes from that uh and so, um, I'm wondering, you know, is there, uh, what does it look like?

12:01

what does purity culture look like? Like? What are some examples of it?

12:06 - Meg (Guest)

yeah, so it's a lot of policing of how women particularly should show up, um how they should be. So it's the youth camp directives that girls need to have t-shirts to cover up their swimsuits. Um, it looks like you can't have sex before marriage and if you do, you're dirty, you're um a lot of um chewed up gum, spit out oreos, flowers with petals picked off, like these.

12:36

These are metaphors that were used in a lot of teachings for youth groups, for abstinence only sex ed, and so, uh, yeah, lots of those kind of metaphors. Um, it often shows up as a lot of secrecy around sexual behavior as well, a lot of shame around maybe, um kinks or preferences or things like that when it comes to sex. It shows up even in the way that people parent their children and talk about their bodies and the shame that comes with what are normal developmental things that you know that happen with children and and with, um, you know, young teens going through puberty.

13:19 - Sam (Host)

So there's lots of shame that can show up in that space and parenting so pretty far-reaching yeah and um, and it is synonymous with um, sexual assault, culture and, and you know the, the shame that comes around that and uh and also, but you know, for some women not even understanding the concept of consent and what that would look like, particularly in a marriage where your body is not your own.

13:54 - Meg (Guest)

That's kind of the underpinning around that, hey it's a really big area that often in in these youth group spaces or abstinence only, sex ed we weren't having those conversations about consent, and a lot of, um, christians even now, will argue that there's no such thing as marital rape. Right, well it's. There's still lines of consent and those can absolutely be crossed, even within relationship. And so, um, yeah, it's really big and a lot of, a lot of the thing that I see about how purity culture shows up. There are often differences for the genders and so, um, for women, purity culture can show up quite differently to men.

14:46

So and this is a generalization, but the stats on it are quite interesting so about 95 percent of women will say if they were raised in purity culture, in this teaching, and think, about 95 percent of women will say that it negatively affected them, their feelings about their body, their understanding of sex, their feelings, you know, in relationship, versus about 25 percent of men.

15:10

So, um, what I think is really interesting about that is that a lot of the messaging of purity culture and how it showed up, told, told young men and boys, that if you do something wrong sexually, if you cross a line or something like that, you've had a bad experience or you've done something that's outside of the approved guidelines, right, so something you have done something wrong Versus women, a lot of them being told if you cross those lines, you and your body are bad and wrong. So it's a much more internal message that can become a lot more internalized and linked in with their view of themselves, their body, their worth and those sorts of things. So I think it's it's important to note those different ways, not to say it doesn't affect men as well, but but we see a much, much higher percentage of women affected by the teaching of purity culture.

16:06 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I think what I hear as you talk about that is it's like the impact for men is guilt-based and the impact for women is shame-based.

16:17 - Meg (Guest)

And so it's not.

16:18 - Sam (Host)

You know, we're not trying to like, it's not about comparison, because that would be like trying to compare apples and oranges right, they're different kinds of fruit. But um, I think you know, in general, purity culture sucks for everybody. It just sucks differently for different people, different genders, different sexualities and identities. Um, but you know it's not ideal to be told that your body is not your own and you have to succumb to the lustful desires of your body and your soul. That's also less than ideal. So, in terms of the immediate impact, because we'll get to the long-term impact, but the immediate impact of purity culture, what does that look like, particularly for women?

17:03 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, so what I see a lot of. Obviously, I'm dealing with people who come and talk to me about the ways that their sex life is struggling or their relationship is struggling, so I'll speak primarily to that. What it shows up often for a lot of my clients is I want to want my partner, but I just don't and I don't know how to get past this feeling of obligation. And I don't know how to get past this feeling of obligation, this feeling that I am supposed to show up sexually and meet my partner's needs, and I don't feel like I have a voice that I can talk about. My pain, my pleasure, my preferences, any of those sorts of things. It can show up as even like a fear of dating or even entering a relationship, of what if I don't get this right? What if they're not the one?

17:57

So a lot of purity culture and you know I Kiss Dating Goodbye and a lot of those sorts of books were really about only, not really even dating, but only courting to marry. So a lot of fear around when, how do I even date? And you know how do I navigate that landscape, and I see a lot of that. Um, yeah, those would be. Those be a couple of key areas where I see it show up quite immediately and obviously yeah, and I think it's.

18:28 - Sam (Host)

that's probably an important space for people to note is that, like it's not just it's not about jumping from no sex to all of the sex right, it's not about like going from one extreme to another, but I find that the biggest missing link is the education around sex, so that you actually have the information and the ability to make informed decisions and have consent Right.

19:00 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, absolutely, and it's a bit tricky with purity culture because you don't know what you don't know and often you can feel like isn't that just what everybody deals with? And then you know it's really interesting. I was actually I had coffee with a friend of mine today and we come from very different backgrounds. You know she had all the exposure to all the things very young and parents, happy food or be having sex at you know, an age, appropriate time and all of that. We were just talking about the wild differences and what that does for you as you move into dating and early relationships. You know my experience of really having very little education around my body and sex and relationships and yeah, yes, it's wild to see just how much we didn't know, that we didn't know yeah, and, and I think you know as teenagers growing up in that it's also not just about sex, it's just about development of like the body, right, yeah, yeah.

20:10 - Sam (Host)

And so I think, yeah, people, I think sometimes either people are not aware or they just forget and think purity culture, um is synonymous just with like abstinence, only culture, and I think it's so much of a bigger umbrella than that.

20:28 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, I mean it's, it's created purity.

20:31

Culture has created such shame around bodies generally and so that often translates into people not getting even the education about puberty that they need. So I have very, very many people that I work with that absolutely were terrified when they got their first period because they thought they were dying because they had no idea what was happening. So a lot of people who carry shame over the fact that they noticed that it felt quite good to touch their bodies in certain ways and they discovered self-pleasure and masturbation but absolutely didn't know what to do with that or felt guilt or shame and didn't know why. When that's actually it's a developmental milestone and thing that happens as you go through puberty or even much, much younger children are discovering their bodies firstly in non-sexual ways and then, as you, as you age, in two more sexual ways. These are all developmentally normal and appropriate things that happen that many, many people have carried shame over because either their home was silent about sex or the the way that shame um sex was spoken about was shameful because of those teachings.

21:44 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, uh, now, I know that you specialize in working with relationships in this space, so I want to make sure that I pick your brain around this, because I'm wondering whether you can talk in regards to relationships and the impact of purity culture, but also like gender dynamics, in terms of relationships, when it comes to intimacy and connection. Uh, and is there differences between, or what differences? Because my brain is going, I know the differences what differences do you notice for heterosexual couples versus lgbtqia plus couples?

22:28 - Meg (Guest)

yeah, yeah, okay, interesting, um, okay, that's a really big question so I'm gonna try and break it down let's break it down.

22:35

Um, so what do we notice? What are some of the things with relationships? Um, one thing that I would say that I probably wouldn't have named early in my journey and and thought was a big deal. But now, as I, you know, I've been in this for years now and now I look at it I'm like, oh, it's really, it's a real shame that this is one of the byproducts of purity culture. Is that we really have lost out on the ability to have lovely platonic relationships with people of the other gender or with or with, you know, in a heterosexual kind of framework of speaking. We really have, like, because of these, don't be behind closed doors with a man or a woman um, they seem to be above reproach. All of those things don't lead anybody on. Women were particularly not to leave men on and things like that.

23:30

And I really think, as I've got older and developed great friendships with lovely men in my life, which I never would have done as a young married woman, because that just wasn't done, I'm like, oh, that's such a shame that that's definitely one way that it impacts relationships generally.

23:48

But then, when it comes to intimate relationships, you've got a whole lot of dynamics there about, if we're talking about a heterosexual framework often we are dealing with, well, men should be the leader and women should be more submissive. And how does that affect a couple where, maybe, maybe, the male in the partnership is not naturally, um a fiery, outspoken, extroverted, alpha visionary type, which are all the things that tend to be prized in those christian evangelical spaces for men? Um, so if the man doesn't naturally show up like that, what then happens in the dynamic of the couple? Um, what happens if you have a more outspoken woman who speaks her mind, who has something to say, um who's got a bit of get up and go and wants to say, hey, let's do this and let's do that, and she's constantly dulling herself to attempt to come under the spiritual authority of her husband?

24:48

yeah and so that's. That's something that I see as a big issue in heterosexual couples is that dynamic of leadership and really, when you look at the stats of healthy relationship, you see that couples where there is an equal power dynamic are infinitely much happier.

25:07

And there's some really really interesting studies and meta-analysis over many studies that show us over time that that dynamic where we have equal relationship there's so many many ways that it is much healthier and people are much happier in that kind of relationship and I think that that is where we do see a difference with same-sex relationships is because there tends to be a little more natural equality, because we're not dealing with a hierarchy and quite the same, or we're not dealing with the social you know assumptions about that and so often, particularly where we see two women partnered together, they, they get in and they work out okay, who's doing this, who's doing that, and it's much more equal, and so that's definitely a big difference community um that we really have.

26:14

We have such a long way to go and having good discussions about um. There is a lot of often there's a lot of shame for people who are like oh well, I navigated purity culture fine, because I I absolutely stuck to my boundaries because I was, you know, dating somebody of the opposite gender and I was so good it was totally fine, I could stick to those boundaries. I thought I was a pro at purity culture, but then it turns out actually I just really had very limited or no attraction in that space and and so I think there's a lot of um. There's just so many more discussions that we are yet to have and unpack in the ways that it has affected the lgbtq plus community? Um yeah, that's a big question, so break it down a little bit more. What else you want to know specifically about?

27:03 - Sam (Host)

yeah, I mean I, I would absolutely agree. I mean I obviously identify as bisexual or queer, but I remember thinking that like actually I could use my attract I mean it's very layered but like I could use that as a way to like I'm just like really good at this, I'm just really good. And when I interviewed Alana Sabatini, who is a musician in the US, she also said the same Like when she was, she just thought she was really good at purity culture but in reality she was just really gay.

27:39

So it's like it's that, I mean that's like we laugh, but it's like awful we laugh, even though, yes, of course, it's not funny, but, um, it's, yeah, it's one of those things that uh, people just don't think of, right, like, and you do just think at the time, because often, uh, anything other than a heterosexual relationship is not just is not, it's not presented as an option.

28:10

So it's not just forbidden, it's also just not presented as an option. So, of course, the the natural thing to think is that, oh well, of course I'm just like really like spiritually, like healthy, and I'm just really kicking goals at this whole thing when in it's just we don't have the, the awareness to understand what's actually going on because it's not being presented as as a viable option or an option at all. Um, I'm wondering in regards to and I'm probably like using personal experience here in terms of like, when it comes to, uh, queer relationships, are you seeing that the shame around actual like, having sex or like any sort of sexual content, a contact is different than in a heterosexual couple yeah, it's highly, highly individual.

29:07 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, yeah, like it's hard, and I don't like to make generalizations about this, because I see so many different presentations in the LGBTQ plus community, because, obviously, you know, we're dealing with people who are navigating how they feel about their gender, not just about their attractor, and I work with people who are in varying different stages there.

29:34

it's, you know, even now, in: 2024

30:46

yeah, yeah, again, there's so few of these spaces that are actually having the conversations that I I never want to knock what's happening in progressive spaces because I'm like hey, you're doing better than you know. So, um, oh, yeah, yeah. But I mean, if you look at our schools, there's still so much hesitation around kids having a full spectrum of sex, sex ed, and so, yeah, we've got a long way to go yeah, absolutely.

31:18 - Sam (Host)

I mean, I my first thought goes to and this is like a little sidestep, but it sort of is like just a. An example of like the far reaching impact is I don't know if you know the book Welcome to Sex that was released by Yumi Steins adult Melissa Kang. There was a big controversy.

31:38

Yeah, it was huge, like it just went gangbusters. I mean it was great marketing for the book, but you know they say any good market, any marketing is good marketing. Except that people were just like wild about the fact that this book was being sold in department stores and things like that, and it was on the shelf and yet all it was was a book that was about good, healthy, thorough consensual sex education, and yet it just ruffled the feathers of so many people, which shows, perhaps, that whilst purity culture is like a term used within the church, it seeps out right.

32:23 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah yeah, absolutely there, there is. There are crossovers between the things that we see generally in culture and then what we see in christian culture, and there's definitely, um you know, connection between those and crossover. Um, and it's not new that people have been up in arms about sexual content.

32:44

Right this has been going on for a long time, um, but I think what's interesting when we see the oh my goodness that we get in the church about the discussion around sex is that it was more than just a social thing. It was also connected to your worth and your salvation and your connection to god and divinity, and those are very, very big existential concepts. To then tie outrage about sex too, um, so yeah, yeah, I mean on that.

33:24 - Sam (Host)

I'm wondering whether perhaps you can speak to the impact that it has on someone's emotional and mental and spiritual well-being to have grown up or been involved in heavy purity culture ideology.

33:39 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, I mean even light purity culture takes its toll so often um people who feel broken yeah and like their desire or their sexuality is not normal.

33:54

Um, so they just carry an incredible weight of shame around who they are. And when you look at the intersections with diet, culture and and body size and all of those things, there's so much weight in there about your worth and your value and your desirability. Um, yeah, it's, it's really really far-reaching. And, um, when I see, when I see people who have come through the church and they're like, oh, purity culture didn't affect me, I'm fine, I'm like, give me 10 minutes asking you questions and.

34:40

I almost guarantee you that I will find ways that purity culture has affected the way you view yourself, affected the way you view yourself, um, and not because I'm maliciously going looking for it, but it's just so baked in to so many ways that we view ourself.

34:56

Um, you know, there's also these intersections with disability and um, purity culture and the ideas of pure, what are pure and good bodies, and praying for healing and like all of those big discussions that happen as well, and um, so, yeah, it's very, very baked into a lot of the way.

35:21

We even the idea that you know, and if this this may not be something that you hold to, but if I talk about the Christian story in broad terms as divinity and human form for salvation and redemption of sinful humans, right, that's kind of the big story that we see in Christianity. And if you, if you look at the ways that you maybe don't show up as pure enough or in the right body or good enough, and so then you are connecting ideas of salvation and being a wretched sinner. I'm not sure that I've explained that terribly well because there's so many little web parts of it, but can you see how even the big arc of the story of Christianity and the story of purity culture, and you need to be pure and holy and chaste and set apart for your partner, your husband, and the heterosexual terms. You know how there's so many parallels between those two stories.

36:29 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, what's coming to mind for me as you talk about that is the like the church that I was a part of was big on the church is the bride of Christ, right, and then so to use, it's still that very like, there's a connection there, so like God, and then the church and the church is the bride of Christ, and then the church and the church is the bride of Christ, and then, you know, woman is the bride of man and it's just all of these gross little like spider web type connections that all come down Like, even just like the concept of bride everybody automatically is going to have, like the imagery of white and pure and like you know, giving away to your husband and you know all of those sorts of things, and so it's. I think often it's about like, also like the language that's used to create that automatic association that's happening.

37:24 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah yeah, so that's what I mean when I say it's kind of baked in you know, we can see so many parallels and that's why sometimes, when I'm talking about it and trying to unpack it with somebody, I'm like well, it's here, and then it's here, and it's here, and it's here, and it's in so many different ways that we can see purity culture play out.

37:43 - Sam (Host)

Um, yeah, yeah, it's uh, yeah and I think like my brain automatically just goes back to that idea, that like it's an ideology, which is why we see it in so many different spaces. Um, and it's just this ideology around purity as a as a concept, uh, purity as a concept in general, just insights, mass amounts of, of shame and guilt and suppression and all of those, and oppression, all of those sorts of you know awful languages In terms of like. When you are working with couples, are you seeing them in the immediate aftermath of like, trying to work through this, or are you often seeing them like decades later?

38:32 - Meg (Guest)

uh both yeah, okay both.

38:34

So, like at the moment I'm dealing with some clients who are three and four months post-marriage going uh, we, we don't actually even know what we're supposed to be supposed to be doing. Um, I see people dating struggling to figure out where they sit in the day, so right at that stage. And then also I see many couples who are 15, 20 years into marriage like we've never talked about this, we don't have language around it, we don't know why. Our sex life has just been terrible for the last 15 years and we've just always felt like, well, we've got to just slog it out, but it's, it's awful, and neither us like it, and we don't know why.

39:19 - Sam (Host)

And we don't have language and we don't know how to have conversations about it, and so I really do see the whole spectrum of people at varying different stages yeah, just the recovery or the healing or the moving through purity culture in your body look different for those who you are seeing three or four months out versus 20 years out uh, yes, it can do.

39:48 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, again, this is super individual. Um, it depends very much. Like I have some people who maybe didn't become christians until they were 16 or, you know, went to a youth camp and became christians and they often have a very different response in their body to untangling this versus somebody who grew up in purity culture and was surrounded by that and so, um, yeah, there can be a difference. And also when you have been with somebody for 15 or 20 years and you have ingrained habits and you know those sorts of things, um it can feel like, wow, that's a lot of resentment that we've got to unpack, or that's a lot of resentment that we've got to unpack, or that's a lot of pain that we've got to unpack.

40:35

For some of those couples and I love when this happens they're also couples who have had a really enduring commitment to each other. They've done the hard yards together and so there's a little bit of that shared history sometimes that they can draw on. That gives them a bit of resilience. Or they have other connections, other than just their sex life, to draw from, to give them strength as they navigate healing, whereas a couple who's maybe newly married may not have that history but they're drawing from. So yeah, again pretty varied.

41:13 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean, mean, I'm my, I'm automatically thinking as a couples therapist uh, the stat that it obviously it takes couples on average six years to go to therapy, uh, and so I'm thinking, like, obviously I even see in the couples that I work with those who come, you know, uh, the first sign of any conflict that they can't navigate, versus the couples who have been in conflict for like decades and trying to navigate it on their own. Um, it just, yeah, there is added layers of strength, but there's also added layers of challenge, right, yeah?

41:45 - Meg (Guest)

yeah, yeah, what I do love and it's probably been the last two years I've seen a real increase in this is I am seeing an increase in couples coming earlier and and that's just kind of my own experience with the clients that I have coming to me but I think there is more awareness around deconstruction and purity culture and we're starting to have language for these things. You know, I it was, you know, 15 plus years ago when I was unpacking it personally for myself and I didn't have language around it. There was nobody talking about these sorts of things. Which is what drove me into this space as a professional is because there was nobody that could put help me, put language around or understand the experiences that I was having. But now I see a lot more awareness around it and still not enough. Still lots of people who don't know that there are people out there like you, like myself, who are here to help on these kinds of things.

42:44

But I definitely am seeing an increase and, just interestingly, I'm also seeing an increase in couples who want to have the discussions, not just to because they're in crisis, but because they want to thrive and they're like we know how to do the hard yards. We're committed to each other. We've stuck it out, but we don't want to do the next 30 years of our life just surviving and getting through slogging about. We actually want to thrive, and I say that particularly as people come into that really transitional empty nest, or as Petra Baggers calls it, spacious nesting space where the kids are leaving home and they're like, okay, we've done the hard yards with the kids, but actually we're just realizing we've got another potentially 30 years ahead of us. Um, how do we want to navigate that?

43:35 - Sam (Host)

yeah, yeah, I, I would agree it's. It's moving, it's at times feels very like a snail's pace, but it's moving your pace. It's moving, uh, and I mean, yes, the world, like the world of religious trauma and, you know, recovery from purity culture or spiritual abuse and things like that is a grossly underestimated and misunderstood Spain, but it's moving, little by little it is moving. It is, yeah, in terms of recovery and healing from purity culture. What does that, broad strokes, look like?

44:19 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah, so usually it looks like education first up. Where are the education gaps? What are the things and it's often this even shame about not knowing stuff that you feel like you know maybe you're in your late 20s or 30s or 40s. Even I have clients who are in their 50s and 60s, even who are like, oh, I don't know that about my body or my partner's body, and so getting some really good, solid, comprehensive sex education and, you know, being able to do that in ways that don't make you feel shameful for for seeking that out. Um so, education, uh, it looks often like understanding my narrative and where is where it was my agency? Where is my agency in that narrative? How do I understand that and unpack my story? And then also embodied agency. So what are the choices I'm making now? What are the things I can do? Now that I am in control of that, I can choose differently.

45:22

It often looks like developing a new, healthy sexual ethic, particularly for those who are dating or looking to date or have sexual experiences with people.

45:35

Well, if I'm not going on the old framework of just don't do it and abstinence, then what am I using as my framework that helps me navigate those sexual experiences that I might have with people. So sexual ethics and yeah, and with that comes all the conversations about consent as well, like healing and understanding, truly, truly understanding consent and how that that fits into the picture is really important. Um, those are, those would be some of the the big key areas that I think, um, and I see is that people uh, work on that, help them move through and heal and and really, like I work in a lot of somatic modality, so somatic being mind body connection, so nervous system regulation and those sorts of things like how do I actually come to a place of peace in my body? How do I navigate feelings of pleasure? Because they may you know, they may encounter physical pleasure and that brings up shame or guilt, and so how, how do we rewire, how do we rework that so that pleasure can actually be pleasurable?

46:45 - Sam (Host)

yeah yeah, those would be some of the big things yeah and um, and I'm gonna throw the big question at you and we've talked a little bit about it and we talked about we're laughing about this because we laughed about it beforehand, um, before we hit record but in terms of the societal shift, and the educational shift around this ideology of purity culture. What are the things that, from your perspective, needs to happen to start chipping away at dismantling that ideology?

47:19 - Meg (Guest)

yeah, big one here would be understanding that you and your body and desire are good. Like, if we could. If that was one thing that I could ask people in church spaces to talk about or change, um, it would be your desire is good, it's not bad, it's not something you have to suppress, um, even if you choose not to have penetrative intercourse before marriage, you know, because that's a valid choice that people absolutely people make for many different reasons. Yeah, but if we could have the conversation around understanding desire, how it shows up, what it looks like it's good pleasure in your body, not having to suppress that man, if I could see that change, I'd I'd be much happier. There's there's still many other things that I would change as well, but but I think we could have that conversation a little bit better yeah and and tied in with that is that if you have had sexual experiences, you are not bad or broken.

48:23

You have not, and this is, we haven't even touched on the whole concept of soul ties that comes with purity culture you know the idea that if you have sex with somebody, you've been attached to them at some spiritual level, and so I would love to get rid of the ideas of soul ties, and I would love for people to know that them and their bodies and their pleasure are good yeah, yeah, I.

48:47 - Sam (Host)

I often find myself like spouting the like, the phrase like you are good, your body is good. It has always been good and I think that that would actually change a whole bunch more than just like purity cultural ideology.

49:04 - Meg (Guest)

But uh, it would, uh, it would certainly make a dent in that system the challenge is, though, that that is that's in opposition to a lot of what we're taught in churches that you are sinful and bad and wrong and so it's a big shift that we're asking for. So I'm not sure how that happens. I mean, I'm not in church, I'm not in church spaces a lot, um, so I'm not sure how that happens. I mean, I'm not in church, I'm not in church spaces a lot, so I'm not sure how that happens.

49:34

But you asked what would I like to see changed. That's what I'd like to see changed.

49:38 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I mean I'm going to like slight adjacent to the same question of like what you would like to see change. But what realistically do you see changing?

49:54 - Meg (Guest)

in what spaces? That's a very big question.

49:57 - Sam (Host)

I mean your deal is Troy, you can pick the space okay, what do I see changing?

50:03 - Meg (Guest)

I think I am seeing, even in the church, women starting to understand a lot more around, like we had the me too movement and we had the church too movement, and I think that I that would be one thing that slowly, very slowly, but I am seeing change there women realizing that the ways that they have been treated or are being treated or spoken about, um, in a lot of situations are not okay and realizing that if they have been the victims of spiritual, physical, emotional, sexual abuse, that they can start to speak up about that and that there are people who will hear them and believe them.

50:47

And, um, it's a very small change. I still think that, you know, I still think it's incredibly hard for victims to speak up in these spaces, incredibly, incredibly hard, and so I am not pretending at all that that is fixed or done, but but I am seeing tiny incremental changes in those spaces, um, with you know, with more leaders in church spaces, slowly, in progressive spaces particularly slowly, becoming aware that they really have to listen and hear victims when they speak up, that people need to be believed when they speak up about these kinds of things.

51:25 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, I um, I've just thought of a random tangent from what you said in terms of, like, what space are we talking about? And so I'm going to throw a question at you that I didn't prepare you for, sure, sure. Which is like I wonder what you would say to other relationship therapists who might be seeing this type of stuff in their room and they're not necessarily recognizing that that's what it is, or they don't really know what to do with it.

52:00 - Meg (Guest)

That's a really good question, um, and it's something that needs work, because I often have people come to me and they have been to therapists or support people who have not understood the dynamics of religious trauma, and what I would say firstly is please, please, get some upskilling, please find and you know, reach out to Sam and people who are really invested in helping therapists and counselors understand more in this space, because it is so important. But if you don't understand it as well, I would say, have a look at what you have learned about some of the family dynamic things and some of the ways that intimate partner violence can affect people. Look at some of those dynamics, because often a lot of those dynamics translate into what we also see in the church. So, um, like often in the church, woman don't feel they can speak up, they don't have a voice, they don't have agency, they all those sorts of things very similar dynamics to what we can see in um domestic family situations as well yeah, I think that's a, I think that's language.

53:14

That is that translates to other therapists really well for them to understand the correlations that are happening, to be able to draw that connection between intimate partner violence and the ideology around purity culture because a lot of what we were taught in purity culture in taught in churches is there's um ideas that god is a loving father or god is the lover of your soul, and so a lot of that language does cross over and a lot of the dynamics are quite similar. So obviously, please seek out specific religious trauma, understanding and purity culture. You know understanding, but in the meantime, draw on that knowledge that you already have in those spaces to see how it might be affecting clients.

54:02 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely I am. I like to finish generally with my other episodes, which is like a word of encouragement, and so I like to flip that on its head and still sort of like end on a nice word of encouragement. But I'm wondering whether you can offer a thought, an encouragement, a piece of advice for those who might be listening to this episode and going holy, shit, shit that's what I'm dealing with and perhaps never had that language around what's happening in their body or what's happening in their relationships.

54:43 - Meg (Guest)

I would just say hi, welcome Meet.

54:46 - Sam (Host)

Meg.

54:47 - Meg (Guest)

Hi, there's so much here and um, you, just like Sam said before, you and your body are good and it's not your fault that you didn't know what you didn't know, and it's okay if you feel um overwhelmed by the amount of stuff that this has brought up. You don't have to tackle it all at once. Just find one little way that you can exercise a little bit of agency or feel good in your body. Find one little way that you can connect to pleasure, and not just sexual pleasure, but you know pleasure generally in life. Enjoy your coffee, enjoy that walk with your dog or whatever it is like. You don't have to tackle it all at once. Find one little thing, um and welcome, welcome, welcome welcome to the roller coaster many of us on this journey who have been on this journey, and you.

55:46

Really. It's cliche, but you are not alone in this. But it can feel very, very isolating when you first start to realize, oh my goodness, is this what I've been facing? But actually there's very, very, very many people out there who have had similar experiences and, yeah, you're not alone.

56:05 - Sam (Host)

Yeah and uh. You know, I love when people reiterate that you don't need to do it all at once. Right, like slow is fast, you don't need to do, you don't need to like tackle everything all at once. When I think something is like a realization for us, there is that need to try and want to fix it all or solve it all or heal it all, but in reality we can't do that and so yeah, If I I can, I'll add one little thing as well.

56:36 - Meg (Guest)

Um, I often see with people that there's a tendency to apply a lot of the fundamental ways of thinking as they come out into the space where they're deconstructing some ideas, and so I would say that, hey, it's okay to have questions and you don't have to nail everything down and be certain about what your approach is or what you think about things now. It's okay, like, your questions are good, and this is an ancient path that many people have walked to ask questions of their faith, of the understanding of life, all of these things, and so your questions are good and it'll lead you to great places. Even if it feels quite messy right now. You don't have to have it all tied up with a nice tidy bow and have certain answers for these things.

57:22 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, I love that well, two things thank you so much for joining me, and it's such a pleasure, and thank you for the work that you do in this space, because I think you know there are a lot of voices in the US and in, you know, even Canada and the UK. There's not a lot of voices in our part of the world in this space and, in my very humble opinion, I would rate you as one of the world in this, in this space, uh, and in my very humble opinion, I would rate you as one of the best, and so I'm very thankful for you joining me and imparting that, your experience of of living through this and your own recovery, but also, uh, in the work that you do with people you know, day in, day out so, thank you.

58:11 - Meg (Guest)

It's honestly a joy and a privilege and I love sitting in the tricky spaces with people and in the the beautiful, joyful spaces as they have realizations, and I love this work and I just want to provide resources and education and all the things that were not available when I was navigating these things. I just want to provide resources and education and all the things that were not available when I was navigating these things. I just want to make those things available to people and share for people as they find freedom and confidence in themselves, their bodies, their sex lives. Yeah, beautiful.

58:44 - Sam (Host)

Thank you, and if people want to find you, I will obviously pop it all in the show notes. But where can people find you?

58:50 - Meg (Guest)

Yeah sure, my website's migcowencom and I'm on Instagram at migcowen Amazing, wonderful.

58:58 - Sam (Host)

Thanks, meg. See you soon. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone Until next time. Next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.