Bridging the Gap - The Religious Trauma Collective

00:18 - Sam (Host)

I would like to begin by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land on which I live and work the Gundagara land and people. I pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I also want to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands on which you, our listeners, are joining us from today. I recognise the deep connection that First Nations people have to this land, their enduring culture and their commitment to the preservation and care for their country. This land was never ceded and it always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hey there, and welcome to this special bonus episode of Beyond the Surface.

01:03

In these episodes, we take a break from the personal stories and I get to chat with experts on all things related to religious trauma, cults and deconstruction. These conversations are foundational and educational. They provide deeper insights and understanding into the complexities of the experiences we hear in the stories. Whether you're just beginning your journey this is the first episode you're listening to, or maybe you're looking to expand your knowledge in general, these episodes are packed with valuable information that will help you navigate wherever you are. I'm your host, sam, and this is Beyond the Surface. Welcome to another bonus episode of Beyond the Surface. Today, I am joined by two people who you already know and love. They've both been on the podcast already sharing their own stories Jane Kennedy and Elise Heerd. Welcome.

02:01 - Jane (Guest)

Thank you, thanks Hi.

02:04 - Sam (Host)

Before we kick straight into what we are going to be talking about, I'm just going to throw to both of you to just do a quick introduction of who you are and where in the world you are. Jane, do you want to start?

02:17 - Jane (Guest)

So yeah, so I am Jane. I am a therapist working on Gadigal land.

02:23 - Elise (Guest)

Amazing Elise. Hi, I'm Elise Heerd and I'm a trauma-informed therapist and coach and I work in Melbourne, victoria, in the Western suburbs.

02:36 - Sam (Host)

Amazing and most people, I think, by now because it has been a couple of months or a month and a half, I think by the time this will be out which is that we are all the co-founders of the Religious Trauma Collective Australia and New Zealand, which is really exciting, and that's obviously what we're here to chat about today, just to give people a bit of an overview of who we are, what we're doing, why we're doing it. We're going to go the who, what, where, when, why sort of approach. So, to start with, I thought I would just give a really quick overview of what the collective is, and so, essentially, we created the Religious Trauma Collective to be a space of community connection, support and understanding. They were the things that we really wanted to target. We wanted to create a community of practitioners who work in this space in really trauma, informed and safe ways.

03:41

Religious trauma is not a well understood area, particularly in our part of the world, and so it was really important for us to be able to create a registry of sorts of practitioners who could create community within the practitioners but could offer support for those who are seeking support around religious trauma, and to create a bit of a resource hub so that we can get more understanding.

04:09

We love our friends over in the US and the UK in particular and their resources, but we also have some really great resources here in Australia and New Zealand, particularly in the form of like memoirs and people's stories, and so that part of understanding is really key, I find, in memoirs, because that's where we really see the impact of religious trauma and the impact of spiritual abuse, and so, yeah, we wanted to be able to highlight and platform those resources, because they're often the ones that are going to relate to the people who live in Australia and New Zealand. The language is different, the landscape is different, and that's also something we will chat about later in the episode. But, yeah, I mean I'm going to throw to either of you. If you want to expand on the purpose of the collective and what it actually is, I think you explained it really well.

05:13 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah, you did great. I can add to that.

05:16 - Sam (Host)

Amazing. Okay, so I'm going to. I think you know when we talk about why the collective is important. I think we broadly know why it's important in the landscape of community and the area of the world we are in, which can sometimes feel a little disjointed to the rest of the world. But I think all of us had quite personal reasons as to why the collective was also important. All of us had quite personal reasons as to why the collective was also important, and so we're going to do a little bit of a round table as to why that is, and so I'm going to throw to Elise first as to why it was important for you personally that we create this space.

05:58 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah, thanks, sam it.

06:01

Yeah, it's deeply personal to me why this space is so important and, like you said, we've talked about a lot of the generics and we'll talk a little bit more about that.

06:13

But for me personally, when I experienced trauma within the evangelical Pentecostal kind of megachurch world, I accidentally just lucked out and found a counsellor who just happened to be able to name my experience when I had zero language for it at all.

06:36

So I didn't even know to be looking for a practitioner or a therapist that understood religious trauma, because I had no idea that that's what it even was at that point.

06:47

Um, but finding a, finding a therapist for myself who was able to understand it, name it for me and then walk that journey with me, was really important. Um, and for myself personally now, being in the space where I'm working with clients that have experienced religious trauma or spiritual abuse, hearing the stories of re-traumatization when they've gone to practitioners that haven't understood it they just haven't had the knowledge or the understanding and seeing kind of the additional harm or the extra layers that come with that, has made it really important for me personally to be part of a space like this, not only for the clients but for the practitioners that really want to understand more about religious trauma, that can help people to name their experience and put language around that and to create the safe spaces for clients to be able to yeah, not have to explain in depth the things that have happened, because the practitioner will just get it and they'll know why things were traumatizing.

08:05

I just think like a really quick example for me this morning when we're recording this, it's a Sunday morning and for me, getting up and actually getting a little bit dressed up for this was actually really triggering because it's a Sunday morning and that's what I used to do every Sunday morning was get up and get dressed up, yeah, but my immediate response was, that's okay, I'll take it to therapy, because my my therapist will fully understand why. That was a big deal, yeah, and so it's little. It's little things like that that actually make this space really important. Um, yeah, and it's why I'm really personally invested in this space.

08:45 - Sam (Host)

I mean the fun thing is is that we also get that probably on a much more um level as well. But um, I mean, rather than going to church, we do a podcast on religious trauma. I mean, that's just like same same. Yeah, exactly um, and so yeah, I, you know that I think having language for your experiences is one of those things that um is, if not the, but one of the most important parts of healing and trauma recovery is actually just having language for what your experiences are.

09:22 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah.

09:23 - Jane (Guest)

Jane. Yeah, I got a little bit giggly there thinking about I actually had a client this week who was talking about the prayer of Jabez. I don't know if either of you remember that, but it's just like this whole.

09:37

You know, every so often in kind of Pentecostal world, there'll be like this random thing that pops up that you have to kind of it's either the purpose life or the prayer of jay or some other thing that you have to kind of get on the bandwagon with and and she mentioned it and I just laughed and just went, yep, I'm with you. Or you know, kenneth copeland, or some random benny, him, prayer hanky or something, um, so, yeah, I think I think for me, um, I realized that it's been 20 years since I started to unpack some of this. I started to question some of the um, some of the things that had been very formative, very real, very normal for me, and so that predated smartphones, it predated podcasts, it predated um internet that wasn't dial up and it predated social media. Yeah, so I'm outing myself that I'm 52 and so 20 years ago, you know, like I was trying to figure stuff out and really just not you know, knowing where to turn. And Brian McLaren I always laugh was my gateway drive to deconstruction, because he had this beautiful trilogy and new kind of Christianity I think is the first one, and that was kind of my dive into a more progressive faith and I stayed there for a long time. But I was listening to MP3 files of Rob Bell's sermons, you know, when he started to talk about stuff he was questioning when he was still in ministry. And then there was blogs. They were like the new cool thing that were popping up and so I started to sort of read things.

11:20

But, like we were saying before, like it's quite different in our part of the world and I couldn't really find anyone questioning or talking about things publicly in Australia. Um, and so it was it kind of felt quite lonely and I just remember thinking when I was sort of reflecting on that this morning, like it just it just would have been so powerful and it wouldn't have taken me so long I don't think to kind of completely feel at home in myself, separate from all of this, if I'd had people to connect to and the idea of going to therapy then wasn't even a thing, like you could have a Christian counsellor. But there was no way I was going to be unpacking that with a Christian counsellor because I was too scared to even say the stuff that I was doub to be unpacking that with a Christian counsellor because I was too scared to even say the stuff that I was doubting out loud. So, you know, like there was this whole disconnect there. So having something like this would have been incredible, to just be able to go.

12:16

There is this, you know, this wealth of kind of information from people who are telling their stories, and there's books I can read and there's kind of a more academic understanding that I can wrap my brain around. There's there's kind of models and frameworks I can, you know, kind of see a bit more clearly, because it's like, oh, it kind of works like this and but it just felt really kind of woolly and hard to kind of touch back then and it took me a lot longer to heal and to kind of feel like I could, you know, feel like I could sort of come back to myself, probably for the first time in a grounded way, like it took me a long time to not feel as wobbly as I did. So my hope is that this resource is something that we can offer to people to be able to go. Oh, it's kind of like that. Me Too, you know like, oh, there I am reflected on, you know, this webpage and here's people I think connect with in a real way.

13:18 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I think there is such a plethora of resources and information now than even five years ago.

13:26

you know, and looking for that information is and seeking support is hard enough when you are in that stage to be able to offer that on one website where they can see that actually in the resources there is everything from trauma recovery to progressive faith to sex and sexuality and and to not feel like, um, they have to google everything themselves because that can feel really overwhelming in itself to be trying to you know what even is there out there and so and even knowing what to google yeah, what are my search?

14:05 - Jane (Guest)

words. I don't have language for this. Yeah, yeah yeah, absolutely.

14:10 - Sam (Host)

um, I mean, I for me personally I was similarly to Elise I was lucky that I found a therapist who knew this space, um, and by lucky I mean I googled for like six months and ensured that like so not necessarily lucky, it was very targeted. I was not just going to anybody, and that was largely because finding somebody who at the time I was still very much trying to wrestle with consolidating and integrating my sexuality and my faith at the time, and so having somebody who understood all of that was just like a really narrow window to try and get. And so I was lucky in that I found an ex-pastor who could, you know know, rip apart theology and passages and doctrine with me, and that was what I needed, um, but I'm very conscious now as a therapist and I was a therapist at the time as well, but, like as a therapist working with religious trauma um, that there are just a lot of people out there who, who don't have the ability to do that and and that's okay. But, um, the problem is is that unfortunately, that's ending up in a whole bunch of re-traumatization and harm done in people who are jumping from therapist to therapist, which is hard enough as it is to find a good fit for you, but to find a good fit that understands the language that you're talking about. I mean, you know we talk.

15:53

I talk a lot about the fact that I don't want my clients to educate me. I don't want them to have to feel like they need to filter their language during our sessions, and it certainly doesn't mean that I know absolutely everything, because, jane, I have no idea what a prayer hanky is Like. I've heard a lot of terminologies but I've not heard of that. But so, like I mean like it's not about knowing absolutely everything, but it's about sort of like there is, you know, an understanding of of the experiences, of of what people are going through. Um, and so I mean before okay, before we go to the next question, jane, what is a prayer hanky?

16:37 - Jane (Guest)

look famously um benny hen, who's a bit of a nut job kind of um, you know, faith healer, private jet kind of a guy. Um, he, you could pay, unsurprisingly, to receive a prayer hanky in the mail that he had like prayed over, and so then you would just kind of um, you know, apply it to yourself, you would hold it, you would keep it, you might maybe you keep it in your bible. You know, um, and it's yourself, you would hold it, you would keep it. Maybe you'd keep it in your Bible. You know, and it's kind of like, I guess, the concept of holy water. It was something that had been blessed, that would ensure your healing.

17:15 - Sam (Host)

Right, okay, yikes, I mean, the fun part of this journey is that you learn new things every day and new terminology every day.

17:29

But yeah, so I guess it was important for me because I knew what it was like to have a therapist who got it and to not have to feel like I needed to explain you know, the impact of the clobber passages or even what that terminology even means and things like that.

17:50

And so I guess it was important to be able to create a space where people didn't feel like they needed to jump from therapist to therapist to therapist, just like continually either being invalidated or not heard, not understood or, you know, even harmed and re-traumatized by other practitioners who, just who just didn't get it for a variety of different reasons, um and so to create a space of um, amplifying those who do get it and perhaps educating and resourcing those who don't currently, because that's also important. So, in terms of, you know, we are very specific about the fact that this is Australia and New Zealand and highlighting that this is, you know, we really wanted to amplify our part of the world. And so, jane, I'm wondering whether you can just chat a little bit about why that was important for us and why it's important.

18:58 - Jane (Guest)

more and I think actually in: 2013

21:43

So I think in Australia and New Zealand's um, there's been a lot of, you know, people come from New Zealand to Australia and vice versa. Um, it's very similar denominationally, the way that you know we understand faith and the language we use is quite similar. But also for both nations, in the most recent census data we are largely secular nations. So I think for the first time since census data has been collected, it's under 50% people saying that they are Christians or that they go to a Christian church, and so the landscape is very much, you know, shifting. So it's not you know we were talking before about in the US. It's quite in the water, you know particularly, and Christian nationalism is a really big thing and you know it very much influences elections. I think that is changing here as well a little bit. I think we're starting to see more of that, probably influenced by the US, but it hasn't traditionally been the way that things have been here or in New Zealand. There's a lot more scepticism you know, cynicism.

22:56

People don't like the whole tall poppy thing. We're very quick to kind of pull that down, so it just looks quite different and I think it was important to us that we acknowledge that and that we um, yeah, and amplify the stories of people in australia, new zealand, who have been through this experience and, um, and those that are supporting them and ways to sort of rebuild spirituality yeah, yeah, elise, was there something in particular that you wanted to highlight around the importance of focusing on Australia and New Zealand?

23:32 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah, I think, you know, with so much being online and the whole world being a lot more connected than it ever has been before, it's great to be able to, you know, connect with lots of different people in lots of different places. But there's also a certain kind of courage that comes with being in community and having the community of not just survivors that are speaking up but practitioners that are starting to work in this area, and there's just a certain level of courage that comes with having that close community that's actually in, like jane said, living in the same kind of water that you are and really understands those nuances that exist within austral, new Zealand, and so, while there are great connections that we've got in this space that are overseas, it's yeah, there's just a certain level of courage that comes when you know you've got that community really close to home. So that's really important.

24:31 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely. I think I even find, when I'm doing these podcast recordings, that when I'm sitting virtually across from an Australian or a New Zealander, that there is like it's almost like a comfort, like an ease. Like, you know, there is commonality, there's common ground, the language is the same, the landscape is the same, the landscape is the same. You know, jane, you and I were talking before we hit record about the fact that, like, yeah, the landscape is just wildly different, like it's just not baked into our politics, into our everyday society, like it is, particularly in the US.

25:10

And obviously you know we keep referencing the US because, I mean, we tend to use the US as, like our frame of reference for basically everything. And so you know we don't, it's just not, it's just not baked into society the same way it is that there are actually so much more. So there is so much more to our society than the church that you go to or the faith that you hold, or the political party that you vote for, and and things like that, whereas that's largely all wrapped up under the banner of um. You know the fact that they the US is considered a Christian nation and uh, and you know, in God we trust and God bless America and you know all of that sort of overt, overt, very religious language that we just don't have here in Australia and I think we saw the impact of a prime minister bringing their religious beliefs into their term and we, quite frankly, really fucking hated it.

26:16 - Jane (Guest)

Well, I did. I don't know about you guys but I did.

26:21 - Sam (Host)

And I guess we saw that, like, actually we don't love when religion and politics mix, and I think that that's a really key difference. And I mean also in that, like in broad society in Australia, we actually don't use the term evangelical a whole lot, right, like that's a huge term in the US and we use it now or I use it now because it's a broad term that everybody tends to understand in this sphere and in this world. But in the church that I was in, evangelical would not have been a term that we would have used. Evangelism yes, but evangelical not so much. And so even just like pulling it down to like the different types of language, the different types of, you know, denominations by name that we have in Australia, it's just being able to connect on a different level with people who understand it, and also, again, we feel so far away from everybody. So it's nice to just like have resources and people in our part of the world. And I mean from a therapist practitioner point of view.

27:44

There are like logistics as well that we wanted to consider, in that you can't always freely work with a practitioner internationally because of like things like registration and insurances and things like that, and so, yeah, time zones, yeah, okay, recording these podcasts with the US folk is just like not a fun, uh, not a fun time all the um, all of the time with, uh, the time zone differences. But there were also just those logistical things in that. We wanted the ease of people being able to find practitioners that they could actually work with. Not, oh, I found someone and then you know, to be hit with a wall of issues or barriers of not being able to work with that person. So I think they were, all you know, key factors in terms of why we wanted to really narrow in and highlight our part of the world.

28:44

On our website, we talk about noticing the gaps in this space, in particular, again in Australia and New Zealand, and I thought it would be helpful to just have a bit of a chat about what we see those gaps are, and so I realize I keep sort of like throwing it in one direction all of the time. So I'm just going to leave this nice and broad and open and whoever wants to talk first can when do you start with gaps?

29:12 - Elise (Guest)

I feel like there are. Yeah, we do talk a lot about how we're wanting to kind of fill the gaps that are there. Maybe one of the gaps that I would highlight is really that knowledge around the language that is used, because, as we know, with trauma, and particularly in a high control environment whether that's religious, family, whatever environment that is the language is really important and the language is usually one of those key things that's used to control. And so when you then add the religious elements to that and again this can be different across denominations what kind of language is used? Like before, sam wasn't aware of what a prayer hanky was. I was, because I probably come from more the kind of background that Jane comes from. So I was aware of that.

30:13

But again, if there's practitioners working in this space that either have lived experience in a different denomination, a different religion, there's different language that they're going to be able to understand, and so there's not just the gap in practitioners understanding religious trauma in general, but specifically understanding religious trauma from different denominations, different religions, and each of those come with their own set of language, that is. You know, I grew up in the evangelical world and it's funny that you said about that word, sam, because at one point I actually had to Google am I evangelical, like? Is that what my belief is? Cause that's not the word we would use either, but I was very much. And so there's, you know, there's the gap in language and awareness of what that language means and the impact that it has on someone.

31:12

So, for practitioners working with clients that are going to come in using this language because it's usually their whole world it's usually the only language that they understand, um, it's the language that impacts what they can and can't do, what's acceptable, what's not acceptable, um, and so there really is that gap in just the knowledge and awareness of what, um, what language is used in these controlling environments.

31:39

That is really keeping people trapped in that trauma, especially in that cycle of trauma that they're trying to recover from or trying to move on from. Yeah, so I think that's definitely one of the gaps that we're wanting to fill is to have the understanding of these, um, you know, what we'd also call the adverse, um, religious experiences, and understanding how we work with people, with their language that they use, that they understand, um and, yeah, to be able to support them in a really safe way. So, again, where we're not expecting clients to come in and educate us as the therapist, that we can just be there to support them, but to create that space where they can go and find a practitioner who is perhaps has that lived experience in that place that they're trying to come from, that already has the awareness of that language and that just doesn't exist in our part of the world at the moment.

32:42 - Sam (Host)

yeah, and I, yeah, I think the it's, I think, the key aspect there as well as like the impact, because, like, people might understand, um, you know, baseline doctrines or baseline foundational aspects of a belief system, but it's often understanding the gravity and the way that something has been pitched to them. And I think that's understanding also the way that religious trauma differs to other types of trauma as well as as well as the ways that obviously you know, trauma is trauma and we see it largely similar in the body and things like that. But there is, like aspects of religious trauma that really differ to other types of trauma and I suspect I can probably get Jane to talk about it because she's talked about it in other things before.

33:34 - Elise (Guest)

But around I guess the the ways that that does differ, because I think that's part of the gap is that there are practitioners out there who just don't necessarily understand the gravity of of what religious trauma encompasses yeah, and I think some of those things that, um, yeah, they some of the key, like the foundational doctrines that exist that may sound nice on the surface but actually carry a whole lot of guilt and fear and shame. And, yeah, so, understanding the impact of those sometimes well-meaning or even well-sounding doctrines that actually have a really toxic underbelly, yeah, yeah.

34:20 - Jane (Guest)

Yeah, and I think also the ways in which this experience is so similar to what we now understand about domestic and family violence and coercive control within that framework and that again, really over the last 10, 20 years has only just become kind of well understood in therapy land, um, and you know the old kind of why doesn't she just leave?

34:47

It's.

34:47

It's the same kind of thing within churches, like, oh, but you haven't been there for years, like what's, what's the problem like? Or if someone's in it still and struggling with their doubts or their, you know, whatever is going on for them, for someone to say, well, can you not just leave and go to another church, or can you just, you know, walk away Like it just isn't that easy and you carry so much of it with you in the same way, and because you know there are experiences of coercive control and because there is that whole existential layer of eternity. So if you um actually had this conversation with someone the other day who was saying that there was um an academic in a um in a university in australia who has written a piece and and she was saying, oh, um, like sort of defending, in a way, churches as institutions or religious institutions, kind of saying the data shows that it, you know, abuse or exploitation or whatever it is, is the same across all institutions, like the church doesn't have higher data and firstly, I'm sure that that's true, um.

35:51

But but even if it was, let's say it is true, if you, if you're experiencing abuse or exploitation or any kind of adverse religious or adverse experience within a, um, say, a university system that doesn't carry the existential weight of now going to hell so I think that whole um or being, you know, struck by lightning or god being displeased with you and losing something as intimate and, you know, core to who you are as a relationship with the divine, like that's not, you know, like that's that kind of added layer that I think is really important for people to understand and currently isn't well understood. Yeah, absolutely.

36:34 - Sam (Host)

I think it's the. It is just so wrapped up in who you are as like at the core, and not just like a surface who you are, but like at the core of who you are.

36:46 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah.

36:47 - Sam (Host)

And it's you know we're talking about like core identity markers and beliefs about yourself and beliefs about yourself, about the world, and for that to not just have a present-day impact or present-day consequences with you know, other individuals who are in the community that you're in, but that that has an everlasting and an eternal impact. The weight of that. It doesn't just leave when you leave. It's terrifying yeah, yeah.

37:25 - Jane (Guest)

and I remember that when I did muster up the courage to see a counsellor and thought, can I see someone who's a secular counsellor, is that going to be okay? I felt like throwing up the whole way to her office. But once I got there I started to tell her how I felt, like I was grieving God, and she just kind of like tilted her head and sort of looked at me and went uh-huh, like she just couldn't understand what I was saying, and then she tried to frame it in a way that just was completely not relevant to my story because it was coming from her understanding. And it took me a long time to seek out counseling after that because I just thought, well, nobody is going to understand this yeah, yeah, I think it's so and I guess that's you know.

38:09 - Sam (Host)

What we're highlighting here is the gap of the understanding of practitioners who just get it and who understand that the role of religion in someone's life goes beyond prayer and church on a Sunday and comfort during grief and you know all of those things that are really lovely on the surface, but what we're talking about is the role of a faith and a belief system in forming a person's whole identity and and that's very different and the reality is is that there is a subsect of practitioners who don't get it, and and we would like to start bridging the gap of of what that looks like, so that ultimately, the goal is always ultimately so that people one land in the therapist offices or the practitioner offices that can help them the best, but also so that they're not landing in rooms where they're going to get invalidated or hurt or re-traumatized by what they're sharing.

39:21 - Jane (Guest)

Um and I think a lot of practitioners who don't have lived experience really want to understand we've certainly come across a lot of them who are like I, you know, I want to know more, help me with this language. Um, you know, can I tell you about this? You know presentation or whatever, and and that's exciting because it's there's that willingness to understand and to listen and to go and read or upskill or whatever. So that's certainly a big part of it. Um, for us too. Yeah, absolutely.

39:50 - Sam (Host)

I think, you know, knowledge is power and and it we certainly don't sit here going um, you have to have lived experience to be able to be an effective practitioner with someone with religious trauma. But I think, uh, we do sit here saying that you do need to be conscious of the uniqueness of the religious trauma and be educating yourself about what your client is going through as well, because, like at least you said, the, even the language between denominations is going to look different. It's like all different forms of foreign language, and if you were not taught it growing up, then you simply don't get it and and it's okay to not get it, but it's not okay to then, you know, know, take that into a session with people that you're working with. I think, in terms of the gaps also, one of the things that we talked about was that we really wanted this space to encompass the full spectrum of where someone lands in the world of faith, spirituality, agnosticism, atheism and not feeling like someone needs to land on that spectrum in a particular spot to be able to seek support.

41:05

And often we find that spaces are either faith spaces or they're anti-faith spaces, yes, or they're secular spaces, and, and we didn't want that and and largely, I think the three of us didn't want it, because we've probably all been in different spaces as well on that spectrum and are still moving on that spectrum and it is not ever something that is stagnant and you, you know, you pick something and you stay there.

41:35

It's moving. And so we wanted space that people could come and find resources on trauma, but could also find resources on progressive faith and memoirs of queer Christians and you know all sorts of different spaces, and not feel like I need to be an atheist or I need to deconvert or I need to be secular or I need to be a progressive christian or whatever that looks like. Um, we wanted a space where actually, where you are is exactly where you are supposed to be and that's totally okay and you can move in and out of that space. But we really wanted a point of difference in that, um, that we are not anti any of these things. We are not anti-god, we are not anti. I mean, the three of us sit in very different spaces on that spectrum of faith and spirituality even right now. So we wanted to ensure that, like, the collective that we were presenting had room for everybody on that spectrum.

42:45 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah, Actually, can I add something to that?

42:48

Yes, please.

42:50

When it comes to resources, I think that's really important, too, that you mentioned there's resources that are going to land in all different places on that spectrum, but also that there's resources that are not just going to be helpful for practitioners or people working in, even, necessarily, in a professional space, with clients that are experiencing religious trauma.

43:15

But something that I'm personally really passionate about with this gap that we're filling is that there's also really good resources for those that are still part of a faith space but are wanting to make that a safe space and they're wanting to allow those conversations, and they're they're just still trying to figure out how do we allow this which is not just their own personal journey, but when they also perhaps hold a position of power within a faith community. Um, and so that that's also, you know, it may not be our primary space that we're filling, but there's going to be really good resources for those that are walking with people that are on all different places in this, you know, on this spectrum as well. But, yeah, for those that are wanting to make faith spaces safe for people to be able to explore and have doubts and ask all of the questions and land wherever they need to land is something else that I think these resources are going to be able to address.

44:21 - Jane (Guest)

And I think if I had found a place like that, if I'd found a faith community like that early on I did find a place like that just before I kind of slipped out, but I think if I had found a place like that early on, I'd probably still be there, like I think it's interesting. You know, you kind of need to, we need to be open to all kinds of different experiences and expressions and where people want to be. And, yeah, I would love to have found a place like that earlier on, so very, you know, excited to highlight those and to promote people's policies around safeguarding and, you know, like, all the stuff that people are doing to make, as you say, face basis, um, more safe.

45:06 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, it's funny you say that, because I actually think that, uh, my, like Chrissy and I would be the same, I think, had we found a, a safe space and an affirming space. Yeah, um, five years ago it would have been a very different story. We might have a very different story of the way that the last five years has progressed um yeah, and so I think in terms of like, also being able to present resources um, so that they're not just safe spaces but they're trauma-informed spaces and understanding imagine like.

45:40

Yeah, I know like imagine like a trauma-informed, affirming church like I. It just is, like you know, but there are people out there who are working towards that, who are trying to do that, and we love that and we want that because the three of us very much understand the role of spirituality and the role of faith in people's lives and in our own lives. Um and and having you know, we're sort of sitting here saying like, had we found that, it would have been, you know, groundbreaking and potentially, you know, changing the course of of the, you know, the last five years. But, um, you know, we know that faith and spirituality is is important for so many people. We just want spaces where that can be fostered in safe and trauma-informed and affirming ways. And so we love the people who are trying to do that. We are not those people, but we love them and we want to bolster them and give them all of the support that we can and the resources that we can. And so, yeah, I think you know, we very much wanted the collective to target different demographics and fill different gaps. And we might not be directly filling a gap, but it doesn't mean that it's not happening anyway, in that, you know, we're not directly targeting people who are trying to build trauma informed, safe churches, but it doesn't mean that the resources that are on our website won't help in doing that as well. So there are gaps that are potentially going to be filled by the collective that we perhaps don't even know about, and we love that. We love the mystery of that and the surprises In terms of, I guess you know, what the collective is now is not just what we want it to look like.

47:30

We have grand plans. We are, you know, big thinkers and we wanted to create more and, ironically, one of the things, one of the first things that we will create moving forward is actually where we started and we created the collective, based on wanting to have a hub for these. So, I guess you know, I thought it might be nice to have a little bit of a chat about looking forward, what we hope the collective looks like in the next. You know 12 months to five years, and you know the things that we hope to include moving forward, and one of those being an online event, which is the one that's coming sooner rather than later, when we can have space and time and energy. But, Jane, maybe do you want to have a quick chat about what we want that online event to look like.

48:28 - Jane (Guest)

Yeah, it's one of the first things I think you and I started to talk about was imagine if there was some kind of a um, an event. We threw around a whole lot of different words like summit and gathering and all kinds of things, but that we vetoed gathering really quickly. Um, it's up there with journey, but um, I think we will. Yeah, we're talking at the moment about an online event.

48:56

Um, early ish, maybe mid: 2025

49:14

You know who we're wanting to highlight through the collective, and so we, you know we might do that over a couple of days and have all kinds of lessons and voices and, as well as having an online event, we're still kind of thinking, well, imagine if we could have sort of little spin-offs, like little pods of people, maybe in Auckland and Sydney and Melbourne, because we're already starting to see people connecting in places through the collective, which is fantastic.

49:42

That's a big part of the goal for us is just to act as, I guess, facilitated for that we don't need to know about what you guys then do with that, but just like, hey, meet each other, you know. So I think that's that's pretty exciting. Let's talk about things as they, as they apply to our region and our two countries, and and be able to interact in ways that feel really familiar with kind of how we do life in other ways, either through work or those of us who have been involved in churches, where you do have annual events and conferences and things. It kind of just feels really normal, so yeah, so that's an exciting thing coming up where we want to highlight in a new way some of the people in our area who have been really helpful in our own journey, but also just who are interesting and, yeah, doing good things.

50:38 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, and I think what's going to be really great about that is that we want it to be something for either practitioners working in the space or people who have lived experience, who are survivors of religious trauma or people who are just like interested in it, who are just curious, um, people who are in faith spaces out of faith spaces.

51:01

We just want it to be a an all things religious trauma of highlighting people who are really interesting in their field, uh, but also who are really interesting in their field but also who are experts in their field as well, and a mishmash of the two, because we need both, and I mean in terms of the little pockets that Jane is talking about. One of the things, you know, one of the other things that we would like to eventually be able to have as part of the collective are support groups eventually be able to have as part of the collective, our support groups. We know, because you know, communal support is needed and is really helpful in terms of validating our experiences, feeling less alone in what can be a really isolating experience, particularly when people you know, if we, if churches do one thing well.

51:55

they do community well, and often you lose that and it's vital, you know. We know that we are hardwired for connection and we heal in co-regulation and community and all of those things. And so to potentially create spaces for both in-person and online support groups to connect and to feel seen and to feel understood in hearing other people's stories, not just in sitting across from a therapist or a practitioner or something like that, something like that Um, but to just be um in it with people who are also living it, who you know, understand the language, who understand the um, what it is like to actually live it, uh, and to potentially be living it still Um. But we obviously want to do that in really safe ways, but we want them to be a really nourishing and validating space as well.

52:58 - Jane (Guest)

Yeah, I have drawn so much courage from people's stories who are like further down the track than me over the years and just go. Oh, can you say that out loud? Yes, can you say that publicly?

53:08 - Elise (Guest)

Oh gosh, okay, just go, oh can you say that out loud?

53:09 - Jane (Guest)

Yes, Can you say that publicly? Oh gosh, okay. So I'm excited about that is just being able to lend people some courage and lend people some hope and yeah, good.

53:22 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, absolutely, and I mean, I think even just like, if you just look at like the small subject of the three of us, we are also all at varying stages of, you know, religious trauma, healing and deconstruction and whatever language you want to use around that.

53:40

But we are all at different stages as well and you can learn from the people who have gone before and who are, you know, 10, 15 years ahead of you, but you can also learn from those who are in the thick of it, who are untangling in the present moment, and so I think that's the beauty of community spaces, is that cross-generational learning and that cross-spectrum learning as well, and hope, like you said. So the third thing that we really want to be able to eventually down the track include as part of the collective, is just some training, and not necessarily like we are not creating like a mass, a mass like two or three year thing, but like little pockets of training, of helping other practitioners understand, but also in helping people who are living it understand, perhaps, what they're going through as well. So, elise, perhaps you can talk a little bit about what we ideally want those trainings to look like.

54:52 - Elise (Guest)

Yeah, I love that language of little pockets of training. It sounds so much nicer than you know. We're going to put all these courses together.

54:58 - Jane (Guest)

Create a diploma, we're not creating a diploma.

55:03 - Elise (Guest)

No, we're not. Oh, my goodness, I'm glad we're not. Yeah, I'm really excited about the training that could potentially be because my background is in training and teaching. I'm I'm really excited about the training that could potentially be because my background is in training and teaching. Um, although I'm really looking forward to reclaiming that in a much healthier space.

55:18

Um, but these little pockets of training, um, yeah, I think you know, um, everything that we've talked about with those that are experiencing, you know, currently untangling and trying to work through trauma. You know, we would love to be able to put together these little trainings that can go alongside things like the support groups where you're doing, you know, the personal work but also then growing in your understanding of you know, what is this, what has happened, what is happening? You know, how does this, what's what has happened, what is happening? You know, how does this connect with the things that I'm feeling in my body? You know just lots of different topics, which I'm sure we'll have lots of, but yeah, we'd love to get, you know, those, those voices from Australia and New Zealand involved in the training for expertise but also for stories, for the differences that are experienced.

56:17

We talked about all the different denominations having their own language, potentially having those small trainings on how to understand language from someone that's decided to exit from the Chogos Witnesses or from megachurches or from a uniting church. Yeah, so there's lots of different ideas that we're throwing around, but these trainings will be aimed at yeah, lots of different people, so those going through it, those that are supporting in a professional sense, and then those that are maybe just walking alongside others, whether it's just friends or family, and how they could perhaps best be supported and believed and understood. Yeah, so that it's not as lonely as it sometimes feels like.

57:07 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think you know part of the.

57:13

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and I think you know part of the.

57:15

Uh, you know, a core component of, of the collective was that we wanted it to be about community and connection, and so we if there are we are open to hearing people's thoughts as well.

57:23

So, if you're listening to this and you're going, I really want to see something on this topic. Please email, email us, dm us on Instagram, however you communicate, because we would love to add it to our list of things to do and, like, I say that genuinely because you know, I'm sure there are things that the three of us will come up with that we, you know, we want to add to that list of trainings, but we also want it to be purposeful. We want it to be what people want to hear and what people want to see, and so to do that, we need people to tell us, and so, by all means, if you know, if you are listening to this and going, like I want to hear or see information or resources or training on this particular space, let us know. We want to know that as well. In terms of that community and that connection, if you are a practitioner. Here is Jane's little pitch about joining us.

58:25 - Jane (Guest)

No, join us. The links will be in the show notes. Yeah, us, it's like. It is such great value that you know being part of a growing community, um, of other practitioners and network. We have a facebook group that's just for practitioners. Um, we're all learning from one another, um, and it's a it's a great place to be. It's, it's just. I think it's exciting and the feedback that we've had from the practitioners who have already joined us has been really encouraging and lovely, and I think people just really see the value of being part of something like this. So, yeah, jump on and have a look at what's involved and, yeah, come along.

59:08 - Sam (Host)

Yeah, come along for the ride, we love it. Come along, yeah, come along for the ride. Well, we love it. And so, um, but yes, as jane said, all of the the links will be in the show notes, as will. Um, you know, the three of us have been I mean, it's obviously my podcast, so of course I've been on it but, um, the three of us have shared, have shared our stories on this podcast.

59:30

Um, and I think, you know, part of what we wanted out of this as well is that we actually just want to connect on the fact that this is not something that we're sitting in our little like high horse going. We need to talk about this. You know, we are in the thick of it and we are always, you know, navigating it with our clients, but we're also navigating it as humans as well. Like it's just, you know, navigating it with our clients, but we're also navigating it as humans as well. Like it's just, you know, there is always things that pop up that go, oh, like, oh, didn't realize that was still there, that's interesting. And so, like we are not sitting here as experts of religious trauma, but we are sitting here as practitioners who are passionate about religious trauma, who also just happen to have lived experience of religious trauma as well, and so you know, part of that is being able to share our story and connect with people on a personal level, not just on a professional level.

:: 00:26

So those links will also be in the show notes of the three episodes on our story and we hope I mean we hope that you find the collective a place where you can learn and understand, but also we hope you just love having something like this being created in our part of the world. You know it's an emerging space and we're excited about it. As you can tell, we've just talked for 40 minutes about it, 45 minutes about it. We're excited about it and we hope that you too get excited about it. And whether you are a practitioner or a survivor, or a friend or a family member of someone going through it, or you're a practitioner or a survivor, or a friend or a family member of someone going through it, or you're a pastor or a spiritual leader, we hope you see the value in this space and that you also get excited about it. So thank you to both of you for joining me for yet another podcast.

:: 01:29

Just thought I didn't have to talk about um, what's it? What's it called? What's the other one?

:: 01:34

we did that terrible show, oh prosper, oh yikes, yes um if those are wondering yeah, if people are wondering um, you know, we did do a part one of prosper. Uh, we did hint at a part two. Uh, we haven't yet done part two. So if want that, also let us know and I'll rope Jane and Elise back in. The fun part of co-foundering something like this is that I have two people to rope in on podcast episodes, like whenever I want to. So that's also nice. But and I mean speaking of future podcast episodes you know, stay tuned. In a couple of months You'll also hear Jane again because we're going to record an episode on how to navigate Christmas post church, post deconstruction or current deconstruction. So stay tuned for that. But everything that we've chatted about will be in the show notes. But everything that we've chatted about will be in the show notes.

:: 02:30

We hope that you will come along and come and say hello. We are always popping in and out of Instagram and social media and things like that. Come and say hello, Come and connect with us. It's the part of this that we love the most is just being able to connect with people. So come along for the ride and come and say hello. We would love to hear from you. So come along for the ride and come and say hello. We would love to hear from you. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Beyond the Surface. I hope you found today's conversation as insightful and inspiring as I did. If you enjoyed the episode, be sure to subscribe, leave a review and share it with others who might benefit from these stories. Stay connected with us on social media for updates and more content. I love connecting with all of you. Remember, no matter where you are in your journey, you're not alone. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning and keep moving forward. Take care.